Mini 1246 - Bizarro Mafia: ...Mate! Who won?


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Post Post #175 (ISO) » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:59 pm

Post by TehBrawlGuy »

In post 132, Junpei wrote:
In post 131, TehBrawlGuy wrote:
In post 122, mozamis wrote:lol no worries :)
I still don't really understand that point -when all is said and done, scum will kill today. (barring lucky doc). So what "no night kill" has to do with it I don't know.


Not no night kill, Night Zero night kill. Essentially, in a standard game, would you rather Scum get a kill as soon as the game starts, or get a kill to use during the Day? (we'll assume doc protects for a full phase and tracker would be able to track his target for a full phase as well) One is the Scum getting a random NK, the other is them getting an informed NK to use on whoever's the most ProTown.

Anyway, I know TK offsite, so I'm gonna go bug him to post here.


1) stop the setup speculation, that phase is done, and we should have PRs send in actions before kills

2) DO NOT PROD TK OFFSITE, IT IS AGAINST SITE RULES I MADE THE SAME MISTAKE IN MY FIRST GAME ON THIS SITE AS WELL DONT DO IT YOU COULD GET MODKILLED


1) I was clarifying my answer to a question I was asked during that phase.

2) Oh. :oops: Hope our mod's willing to let that slide.

In post 134, Pads wrote:
Internet Stranger wrote:
If I had to pick a scum, it would probably be Mozamis.


You DO have to pick scum, assuming you're a town playing towards their win condition. That would be enough to gain my suspicion, and likely a vote, but the post that came before this one is even worse in my opinion.



Except for the fact that we couldn't even vote at that point. I know I certainly didn't have a Scum picked out then. I'm still deciding as of typing this, actually, although I'm leaning Darox.

As far as TK, and I hate to defend him if he is Scum, but he's in like 7 games atm and his lack of posting is most likely temporary. I do agree that he's being too passive, though I can't tell if that's because he's too busy to do stuff or if he's Scum.

In post 145, Internet Stranger wrote:Well damn, no wonder you two are getting your panties in a wad about me. There is nothing out there to go on so you do have to do some major reaching. The first four pages are full of pure garbage. Its setup speculation and RQS bullshit that does NOTHING to the town except have Junpei look like a massive patronizer. Are like some sort of psychiatrist now? Why not hand out Rorschach tests while youre at it Junpei? What kind of secret voodoo bullshit were you trying to uncover in four pages of uselessness? All you accomplished is causing a delay before the game actually started. You allowed the scum to setup their first kill without any pressure. Now the pressure is on the town. No wonder youre so desperate to come after me. All you have done so far is waste the towns time with bullshit RQS and bullshit reads.

Pads andga Junpei have crowned themselves Royal White Knight Defenders of the Town. Apparently if you dont do what they say or you dont do what they like you will be branded as heretic scum and sent to the vote gallows or something. I wouldnt be surprised if one of them two is secretly scum. Scum LOVE to hide as White Knights so that they can direct the town in their own twisted means in a form that they believe is above suspicion. They are also notorious for going after lurkers since they cant control lurkers.

I only feel that I have to explain that due to some of the craptacular reads that people are using to find scum. I wasnt kidding about the junior comment. Its like Lord of the Flies the way some of you are turning into this junior overachiever viciousness that youre spouting. Maybe its paranoia over the different game mechanics. Waffling? WTF? Moz was the only one that stood out at the time, I pointed it out. How the fuck is that waffling? I didnt promise a vote, I didnt promise persecution. I pointed out that Moz was trying really hard at probably playing some leader role. Ahh, no wonder you stomped that down real quick. There is always a White Knight and it wasnt going to be Moz, It was going to be Pads and his junior partner Junpei.


The fact they they (and MOZ!) want to go after a lurker with only two posts (ThirdKoopa) is HUGE and is something that shouldnt be overlooked.

Moz's ISO still looks horrible. A bunch of treading water and playing the role of Captain Obvious.
Viscera is also treading water and posting obvious bullshit.

Hiplop is simply useless. Im curious to know why the White Knight Dynamic Duo arent all up in his ass.

I know who im voting for, but im not going to say who the first day as I dont want to influence anyone's votes, like the scum would want. Scum thsi game will want to make huge public declarations on who they want dead so that the sheep townies will follow. A Scum White Knight in this game is going to do serious damage.

I prefer to keep the votes undeclared, at least day 1. Youre going to get more information from possible scum voting blocks from the reveal tomorrow than these big public executions. Scum know this. Scum are TERRIFIED of this. If scum dont know how townies are going to vote, who would they vote for? Do they jump in two together on someone? Do they spread the votes out? So much information is going to be present tomorrow, but its all going down the toilet if we let the scum manipulate our votes during the day.

A vote count and the subsequent kill is going to give us a shit ton more information than some far reaching bullshit reads are every going to give.


I don't like the fearmongering on any form of leadership.

In post 174, Otolia wrote:I'd like to hear from
ThirdKoopa
,
Wasabi
and
TehBrawlGuy
. You guys have been awfully quiet.

Topics you could discuss : Darox's elusive Behavior, your own absence, who you like to vote for, the reasons Whiskers was killed and so on.


What?

I've been pretty active before the kill, but to due being busy on Saturday as well as getting a new vidya game, my time's been taken up. Whiskers kill analysis seems like it would devolve into pure wine.


I'm not going to comment on anything further, since it's 3 A.M. in my timezone and I'm too tired. Will do so sometime tomorrow.
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Post Post #176 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:13 am

Post by Junpei »

TehBrawlGuy, you're saying that your only scum read is a 'leaning' on Darox?
The melody of logic always plays the notes of truth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA41ggsdeXE
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Post Post #177 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:32 am

Post by Jedo the Jedi »

26 hours, 8 minutes
until end of Day (barring a deadline extension).
Show
Remember
the
249
!
11
/29/
11


"Mafia is defined as an informed minority vs. an uninformed majority."

V/LA weekends. Posts then are the exception rather than the rule.
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Post Post #178 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:52 am

Post by Wasabi »

Frankly, I think Whiskers might have been killed for the pony schtick. I'd actually dropped an early vote there, so that I could look at myself in the mirror on the off chance I took the first scum bullet. Which reminds me, I need to move to a new target...
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Post Post #179 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:49 am

Post by mozamis »

In post 159, ace5993 wrote:@hiplop - Firstly lolmeta, and secondly
you're
the one being pretentious by expecting us to listen to you when you're posting garbage.

In post 145, Internet Stranger wrote:I prefer to keep the votes undeclared, at least day 1. Youre going to get more information from possible scum voting blocks from the reveal tomorrow than these big public executions. Scum know this. Scum are TERRIFIED of this. If scum dont know how townies are going to vote, who would they vote for? Do they jump in two together on someone? Do they spread the votes out? So much information is going to be present tomorrow, but its all going down the toilet if we let the scum manipulate our votes during the day.


This is not differences in gameplay opinions, this is just outright scum. You're basically saying we shouldn't post reads D1 to try to scare scum into not knowing who to vote for? What InternetStranger is suggesting is an EXCELLENT way for any scum to blend in:

1. They don't have to defend themselves because no one's attacking them
2. They can get away with doing absolutely nothing D1 (arguably the most important day in the game)
3. Wagon relationship analysis ("scum voting blocks"), isn't even usable until we get a scum flip, and even so tone and timing of the votes is more important than the votes themselves
4. Far higher chance of a mislynch because scum aren't forced into wagoning one of their own
5. Far higher chance of lynching a PR because they have no chance to claim

And for what? Some
literally
useless VCA.

I will be voting InternetStranger tonight and I suggest you all do the same.


I know people will say "Oh, what a sheep". But I think this is an excellent post and I'm gonna vote Internet stranger tonight (and now just for the hell of it)
UNVOTE VOTE INTERNET STRANGER
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Post Post #180 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:21 am

Post by Internet Stranger »

Holy misrep Batman!

Ace, you have NO IDEA regarding as to what im suggesting. Whats the easiest way for scum to skate by the first few days? To go along with whomever is calling for a lynch the loudest. (ie: See Mozamis above).

Did I say that there should be no discussion? No. I said that no one should follow any white knights (like Pads or Junpei) and vote according to what they see in the thread. So im calling for NO VOTE PROMOTION for the first day (or maybe two).

Im not calling for a blind draw here. We have already had a whole day's worth of discussion, we already have our own opinions on who the scum is likely to be. Dont pretend that this is a normal mafia game because it isnt. You dont need to garner votes from a wagon to catch the scum. The scum are going to hang themselves on vote count analysis in this game.

Think about this Ace, if there is no vote promotion, who are the scum going to vote for? Will they throw a single vote on a quiet buddy thinking that there wouldnt be a big mass to lynch them? Or would they gang up on a lynch target? Would they spread their votes out. The information we can get is phenomenal! But youre promoting a follow the leader approach where whoever is the loudest wins. What information does that get us? You think you have the balls to lynch a White Knight? If Junpei or Pads mislynch some poor fool, whats your case on proving that they are scum? Hey, it wasnt their fault that people secretly voted for who they thought was scum, right? So the scum get to hide in the wagon all day. Then what happens.

By doing it this way at first, we get to see what the scum are thinking. I was hoping to keep my ideas quieter than this so that I could trap a scum during the votes, but now that you are doing what Darox says and spooking the scum, I have to WIFOM the fuck out of it now.

At this point, I know for SURE who im voting for, but im not going to tell you or anyone else. I want to see where peoples suspicions lie. If I see a three man lynch on a notorious player who took a lot of heat today, its a good place to look for scum. If I see someone voting for a quiet lurker? Good place to check for scum. A lurker suddenly voting someone that appears REALLY random? Thats almost guaranteed scum.

Do you still think that im trying to put down a smokescreen for the scum Ace? Im actively setting up a trap for the scum. Blind vote count analysis plus daytime discussions will ferret out the scum faster than any other method in this setup. Other than screaming and flailing about, what are you suggesting? Whats your plan, Ace?
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Post Post #181 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:41 am

Post by hiplop »

mozamis just bus your partner ACE already
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Post Post #182 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:48 am

Post by ace5993 »

In post 180, Internet Stranger wrote:Ace, you have NO IDEA regarding as to what im suggesting. Whats the easiest way for scum to skate by the first few days? To go along with whomever is calling for a lynch the loudest. (ie: See Mozamis above).


Except oh wait, you just pointed it out so he didn't skate by. On the other hand if it had never happened there would have done nothing to analyze at all. HMMMM...

InternetStranger wrote:Think about this Ace, if there is no vote promotion, who are the scum going to vote for? Will they throw a single vote on a quiet buddy thinking that there wouldnt be a big mass to lynch them? Or would they gang up on a lynch target? Would they spread their votes out. The information we can get is phenomenal! But youre promoting a follow the leader approach where whoever is the loudest wins. What information does that get us? You think you have the balls to lynch a White Knight? If Junpei or Pads mislynch some poor fool, whats your case on proving that they are scum? Hey, it wasnt their fault that people secretly voted for who they thought was scum, right? So the scum get to hide in the wagon all day. Then what happens.


OK here's the options you listed:

1. Scum may bus one of their buddies that they don't think will be lynched
2. Scum may form a voting wagon
3. Scum may spread their votes out

THIS DOESN'T HELP US CATCH SCUM! There's no way to tell which of these scum are going to do. Your analysis boils down to:

1. Scum may do anything

Relational analysis is nice, but we need a way to catch one scum first. If you do not have a scum read, there is no relational analysis. I'm curious to know
how
you got your current scum reads. Was it from people posting their opinions about others in the thread? Yet VCA will tell us more than any bullshit reads huh?

Also noting that you're placing complete blame of any mislynch onto only the people starting the wagon. Trying to find an easy way to get rid of the threats to you?

InternetStranger wrote:By doing it this way at first, we get to see what the scum are thinking. I was hoping to keep my ideas quieter than this so that I could trap a scum during the votes, but now that you are doing what Darox says and spooking the scum, I have to WIFOM the fuck out of it now.


Spooking the scum? Yes I'm spooking them, because now they have to do something. Also you should confirm/deny that your proposition is exactly the same as Darox's because I believe Junpei is misunderstanding you.

At this point, I know for SURE who im voting for, but im not going to tell you or anyone else. I want to see where peoples suspicions lie. If I see a three man lynch on a notorious player who took a lot of heat today, its a good place to look for scum. If I see someone voting for a quiet lurker? Good place to check for scum. A lurker suddenly voting someone that appears REALLY random? Thats almost guaranteed scum.


I thought everyone was supposed to be quiet lurkers today? Isn't that what you attempted to be? No one would have taken a lot of heat if people weren't "wagoning" on them. All your ideas stem from discussion in the thread that YOU ATTEMPTED NOT TO BE A PART OF.

InternetStranger wrote:Do you still think that im trying to put down a smokescreen for the scum Ace? Im actively setting up a trap for the scum. Blind vote count analysis plus daytime discussions will ferret out the scum faster than any other method in this setup. Other than screaming and flailing about, what are you suggesting? Whats your plan, Ace?


I must admit you have set a cunning plan. Your plan seemingly lifts you and the other lurkers above the pool of suspicion because doing nothing is OK. However you can only have scum reads on people who are doing something. I mean think about it, you expected today to pass without you doing ANYTHING, you have explicitly stated that. If you expected everyone else to do nothing today as well, how did you expect to find scum? Your proposition is nothing more than a way for scum to skate by through the entire game.
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Post Post #183 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:29 am

Post by Junpei »

My plan:

Stop announcing votes, that's bad to do.

scumhunt

Makes sense, right? Anyway, I agree that it is very likely that all/most of the scum are lurking in the shadows, it is too easy.

On the other hand, at least 1 scum is likely active, as with so many lurkers, it'd be tough for town to commit to killing off a more active player for the sake of conversation.

Hiplop, do you ever plan to be more useful than you are right now?

Also this day is near conclusion.
The melody of logic always plays the notes of truth.

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Post Post #184 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:36 am

Post by Internet Stranger »

Holy shit Ace, when the fuck did I say for everyone to be quiet and not say anything?

As much as it pains me to say, Junpei gets it:

1) Dont announce votes
2) scumhunt
3) See how the votes turn out
4) start looking for scum patterns in the vote count that coincide with #2, including reverse backwards WIFOM (thanks to you, ACE)
4a) Really take a good look at how lurkers suddenly voted for clues


Whats the alternative Ace?

Day 1
Junpei: Everyone lynch X!!!
(scum jumps on the X wagon, remain invisible)

Day 2
Junpei: Oh... it was Y! Lynch Y!!!
(scum jumps on Y)

Good luck finding scum that way.
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Post Post #185 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:14 pm

Post by Jedo the Jedi »

13 hours, 25 minutes
until end of Day (barring a deadline extension).
Show
Remember
the
249
!
11
/29/
11


"Mafia is defined as an informed minority vs. an uninformed majority."

V/LA weekends. Posts then are the exception rather than the rule.
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Post Post #186 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:50 pm

Post by Darox »

Breaking news, VE and Mozami are scum together.

Trying way too hard to fit in. The casual mutual defense is just icing.
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Post Post #187 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:56 pm

Post by VisceraEyes »

This just in! VE is actively lurking while at work and noticed that Darox doesn't know what the hell he's talking about! Details at 11.
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Post Post #188 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:01 pm

Post by Darox »

It's funny because #35.
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Post Post #189 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:54 pm

Post by VisceraEyes »

Darox, you're one to call ME out for spamming the thread. That's a hoot bro. I've given my scum read for the day, my reasoning. If you want more, ask...don't just call me scum. It's not lady-like.

Who's a pretty little princess? YOU are! Darox is my pretty little princess.
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Post Post #190 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:56 pm

Post by Junpei »

In post 189, VisceraEyes wrote:Darox, you're one to call ME out for spamming the thread. That's a hoot bro. I've given my
scum read for the day
, my reasoning. If you want more, ask...don't just call me scum. It's not lady-like.

Who's a pretty little princess? YOU are! Darox is my pretty little princess.


Hm... Great work VisceraEyes, to think that I ever doubted you.. A scum read! My god man, you have accomplished a feat so great I could not possibly ask for more..

Well except, perhaps, more reads. :D
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Post Post #191 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:06 pm

Post by ace5993 »

Yeah VE's little defense right there is definitely not giving me any town vibes. I'm also glad to see that Darox rescinded on his promise of being absolutely useless today. I might switch my vote to VE if there's enough support for it except OH WAIT WE CAN'T ALIGN OUR VOTES UNTIL AFTER IT'S TOO LATE... Never mind, guess I'm staying on IS.

P-EDIT: What Junpei said also.
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Post Post #192 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:10 pm

Post by Junpei »

In post 191, ace5993 wrote:Yeah VE's little defense right there is definitely not giving me any town vibes. I'm also glad to see that Darox rescinded on his promise of being absolutely useless today. I might switch my vote to VE if there's enough support for it except OH WAIT WE CAN'T ALIGN OUR VOTES UNTIL AFTER IT'S TOO LATE... Never mind, guess I'm staying on IS.

P-EDIT: What Junpei said also.



Considering the open BW on IS is basically you.. you can change your vote to anyone and they're the largest BW. So you can go ahead and switch to VE.
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Post Post #193 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:31 pm

Post by TehBrawlGuy »

In post 176, Junpei wrote:TehBrawlGuy, you're saying that your only scum read is a 'leaning' on Darox?


No. I was saying I was leaning Darox for best scum read. I didn't list anything more, because I didn't feel like posting anything more, thanks to how tired I got.

My other main Scum read would be IS, because of posts like this:

In post 184, Internet Stranger wrote:
Day 1
Junpei: Everyone lynch X!!!
(scum jumps on the X wagon, remain invisible)

Day 2
Junpei: Oh... it was Y! Lynch Y!!!
(scum jumps on Y)

Good luck finding scum that way.


Really, phases in normal games with intelligent players don't end up like that, this wouldn't either. I do agree not listing our votes is the best option,
so long as you list suspicions
. If suspicions aren't listed, VCA gets heavily nerfed.

I also have a gut feeling that Otolia v. VE earlier in the phase wasn't Town v. Town.

Darox/IS (since I'm not going to announce my vote) > VE IMO.
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Post Post #194 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:55 pm

Post by Darox »

"Darox is the top scum!"
"Why?'
"Cause he's mean and untalkative"
"How is that scummy?"
"Cause he's not being nice"
"How is that different from town Darox?"
"BUT HE'S MEAN"

:roll:

Wouldn't be the first time I've been bandwagoned for it, though this'll probably be the first time I get lynched for it, because lol gameplay mechanics.
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Post Post #195 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:29 pm

Post by ace5993 »

In post 192, Junpei wrote:Considering the open BW on IS is basically you.. you can change your vote to anyone and they're the largest BW. So you can go ahead and switch to VE.


Well it looks like mozami is also on the wagon and TehBrawlGuy would be a fool to go for Darox over IS when there's an established wagon on IS so... no. I'm going to sleep so I guess this is also my last post of Day 1:

I strongly suggest a ton of people vote InternetStranger (or really any wagon you guys can come up in the next few hours) so scum can't influence the kill. TAKE THE POWER BACK!


Lol yeah but seriously vote IS.
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Post Post #196 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:42 pm

Post by Pads »

Hiplop wrote:
Drips case is BAD.


Did you just call me Drips?

Hiplop wrote:
ACE is scum, and its pretty obvious too. His posts are actually complete fluff and/or repeated knowledge. Its EXACTLY what he did in a previous game with him. (ACE SCUM in game)


You keep talking about meta, hiplop, but just so you know I have no use for it, and here's one of the reasons why. Ask yourself why you needed the third sentence.


Internet Stranger wrote:
I prefer to keep the votes undeclared, at least day 1. Youre going to get more information from possible scum voting blocks from the reveal tomorrow than these big public executions. Scum know this. Scum are TERRIFIED of this. If scum dont know how townies are going to vote, who would they vote for? Do they jump in two together on someone? Do they spread the votes out? So much information is going to be present tomorrow, but its all going down the toilet if we let the scum manipulate our votes during the day.


A bold intiative, not without merit, that contains a number of potential benefits and pitfalls. My problem with it, though, is that it comes at the end of the day when it should have been your very first post if you felt this way.

Darox can talk about Vuvuzelas all he wants, but if either one of you is a townie that thought eight other townies were going to read your minds AND agree on this being the correct strategy AND be willing to execute it, then I'd say you were over-optimistic to a fault.

My point is that, coming now, after the minimal activity of the day, this stinks of being an excuse for it, rather than the cause of it.

I read a game on this site once where the entire game was played without content. Players were only allowed to post votes. The town lost, but they came very close, one misvote in lynch or lose. So, I do believe that it's possible to track scum using only voting records. But that game had something we do not, the ability to watch wagons build, fall apart, and eventually result in a lynch. Could we overcome such a disadvantage with a minimalist approach? Perhaps. However, the last 48 hours of Day 1 was not the time to weigh this strategy's merits.

On a similar note, does anyone else find a curious disparity between these two quotes?

Darox wrote:
Let's talk about not having a RVS by virtue of it being 'night'.


Darox wrote:
Everyone who is talking is harming the town.


While I admit the first quote does not necessarily state an opinion on whether or not Darox believes we should have a RVS, it is worded in such a way to imply that he feels we could skip it.

Maybe I'm the only one, but when I see that someone wants to skip the RVS phase, I think it's because they want to get the game rolling and not waste time on fluff. And now a week later Darox says posting fluff is a pro-town strat. What? See what I mean about it looking like it's just an after-the-fact excuse?


Internet Stranger's Post 145 reads like a Wiki page of ScumTells. We got blanket rejections, fearmongering, chainsaw defenses of the lurkers, ad hominems, and appeals to emotion. Where do I start? Nowhere, excpet to say that a vote on him is starting to look like something great.

"Zomg Pads, what about ThirdKoopa"

ThirdKoopa doesn't need my vote. ThirdKoopa needs to be replaced. And this day needs to end.
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Post Post #197 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:53 pm

Post by Darox »

"Let's not throw votes around like pillocks"

"Let's not throw votes around like pillocks"

Hmmm.

HMMM.
Nope, I can't see the difference.

In related news:
In post 130, Darox wrote:Lol Burden of Proficiency.

I have a feeling we're going to see that a lot this game.
Oh and,
In post 134, Pads wrote:Darox shares some of that same tone in his posts (unless I misinterpreted it, his last post insulted everyone's proficiency at Mafia)
What do you think burden of proficiency means?
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Post Post #198 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:03 pm

Post by Pads »

I think it means that someone who has proven good at finding scum in past games is often expected to find scum in the current game, and if they don't it must be because they're scum. It's a logical fallacy, obviously, but I took your use of it to mean that the burden of proficiency would be on yourself (and no one else, because we're all bad) and your lack of scum hunting and finding at the time was certain or likely to cause the town to be suspect of you.
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Post Post #199 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:04 pm

Post by Pads »

Also, "Everyone who is talking is harming the town" is arguably different than "Let's not throw around votes like pillocks."

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