Secret Society Mafia - Game Over

[Oversoul]

sorry guys, been shirking my responsibilities

will post tonight

(prodge)

[MagnaofIllusion]

Does anyone have any Bogre as Town history to share. Because his dinking around throwing down soft questions looks very much like what Otolia was doing and I know Bogre does it as scum.

Too many lurkers this game – DavidX, Oversoul, Bogre, Whisper, EC, Wraith, Alabaska, Otolia

Has to be scum hiding in that pool, probably a couple with one from each group.

--

I'm not going to unvote BS until I get a better read on her. If she gives me a reason to think she might be town I might consider moving my vote. She hasn't, yet.

So you are going to park your vote on BS and focus more or less solely on her while giving lip-service to other scum-hunting?

is normal meta for this guy?

Muffin prides himself on the ‘Mastin’ style of play. Just keep that in mind when assessing him.

--

Explain why you think he'd be this blatant about it if he was scum.

Yes, I am saying he's too scummy to be scum. And this sort of stubborn, dickheaded Otolia is something I think is more likely to come from him as town.

Why would he act so scummy as scum? Perhaps because he isn’t very good at the game? I don’t have any direct experience with Otolia to have any baseline to judge. I just see someone who was active lurking, wasn’t scum-hunting and who reacted scumtastically when called on it

Have you ever seen Otolia scum?

--

So, let's do some vote analysis:

So you are doing vote analysis without a single flip?

If I would be scum, I'd have been jumping on at least one of the Baby Spice/Otolia wagons.

Useless self-meta is noted.

Of course it does, I just missed it before. I correct myself: you've expressed suspicions of Sage before. Still doesn't explain your late vote change though.

So you here are fully admitting that you were incorrect in attacking Stephan for making a vote on Sage without reasoning.

But you then just move the goalposts and continue to say it was scummy for him to vote scum? So you are saying a player who calls someone scum but moves their vote to another scum candidate is scummy?

And why would you worry about Iceguy moving his vote from Otolia who you don’t see as scum anyway? That doesn’t make sense.

I'm giving up on trying to argue with you idiots - you can safely continue your "IceGuy is scum because IceGuy is scum" circlejerk.

Oh I see … you pretty much have been posting in a scummy manner and get called on it so everyone voting for you are idiots …

--

3: There's a diference between accusing and arguing. Example: saying "OMG, {whoever} is obv-scum because {opinion} end of discussion get on my wagon or else you're scum too!" instead of saying "OMG, {whoever} is scum because {opinion} and {possible quote} anyone else wish to add to this? I could be wrong." Most likely the second one is the townie. MoI, I believe, is not the second one.

Ok, since I see you floating this I have to ask – what is your Mafia experience?

4: Finally, the Whisper thing wasn't important. She's got a very good gut instinct, and can make a great case. That's all. Plus, I hate being in a game where everyone's killed all the smart ones.

So you look at the playerlist and Whisper is the player you chose to single out as “a smart one” that you were worried about losing? Despite no content from Whisper at all?

--

The Otalia case is water tight. Unvote. Vote: Otalia

The timing of this is noted for future relational tells if Ice flips scum.

--

I find it interesting that you couldn't bring up to say anything of the IceGuy wagon at all, when it recieved quite a few votes.

I think the intent of his post is to suggest that the Iceguy wagon is interesting given it has basically appeared out of no-where to eclipse the Otolia wagon while Otolia was V/LA.

But let’s test that theory –

@Sorg – what are your thoughts on Iceguy?

--

[zMuffinMan]

Have you ever seen Otolia scum?

Yes. It's not like this.

[Ghostlin]

I'm giving up on trying to argue with you idiots - you can safely continue your "IceGuy is scum because IceGuy is scum" circlejerk.

*phew*

I wouldn't have wanted to do it without your permission.

His analyses seem genuine

How? Most of his reads are utter crap and there's virtually zero effort behind them. Here I'll break down his ranking system:

"People who haven't posted much are scum, people who think I'm scum are scummy, people who post lots are town, people who post big chunks of 'content' are town"

That's the laziest system of scum hunting I've ever seen. Those aren't "genuine" reads.

Max (...has anyone noticed that the majority of Max's posts are defensive and not really that offensive? Err...I mean, on the offensive against scum, not acutally offensive.)

No? I haven't really seen him post much that I'd call "defensive". He looks town so far.

"Defensive" is the wrong word of Max. More of a passive/aggressive way of scum hunting. Maybe this is how he plays, but something seems wrong. He's not very hard about anything.

Compared to the last time I played a game with IG where he was scum, that's

effort

. That post is more opinions and content he posted in the other game we played together. Does that mean I'm convinced of his towniness? No, he could of simply gotten better at the game (for a given amount of better), but it's enough deviation to place him in the null category for me. I'd rather hang Otolia or DX.

[PeregrineV]

Only 4 pages behind, but will catch up slowly today while at work.

[Otolia]

So here I am, after 'borrowing' a stranger's wifi. I selected a few people to talk about.

• David Xanatos
  
  Self-vote during RVS might not seem dangerous, but it denies the town abilities to read one's first vote. Decision happens during the every stage of the game and voting during the first stages can be a daunting strategical task. That being said, there is no reason to make a fuss over it because it's not enough to build a case on someone. It can be due to lazyness and that strikes everyone scums like townies. He declared V a V/LA short after starting the game and though I feel he posted less than what he showed me once (ongoing game), his case is staled.
  
  Verdict :
  Suspicious
  
  
  
  
• IceGuy
  
  I am quite puzzled by this wagon. He is making sense in his posts and he is coherent with himself. Attacking StefanB for opportunism was a major town tell at this point, he posted his thoughts and didn't drop his case on StefanB under the pressure. Overall his play is far more consistent than most of the town.
  
  Verdict :
  Probably Town
  
  
  
  
• StefanB
  
  His first posts are targeting lurkers, and discussing minor topics. He reacted to Global Warming's claim which is a good thing. Aside from the curious reaction of my vote on MoI, (taking seriously a one-liner + vote when he isn't the person tageted), his behavior after this change completely. He starts arguing with people (namely IceGuy), changes his vote thrice and gives poor argumentation for that, backpedal on his own argumentation.I consider picking a target and working on a lynch more town-aligned than vote-hopping and hoping that somehow a scum is in the ballot. His low consistency don't please me.
  
  Verdict :
  Probably Scum
  
  
  
  
• BabySpice
  
  She mostly tried to explained an early vote on MagisterLudi who was (to my understanding) 'spamming'. She answered quite concisely to yos' questions and though I don't always understand her syntax, she doesn't strike me as scum.
  @BabySpice : A serious wagon is a wagon designed to lynch someone you think is scum. In order to get your target lynched, you need to work on asking him questions, analyzing his play and cornering his answers trying to provoke a mistake.
  
  Verdict :
  Neutral

According to that : VOTE: StefanB

I will cover Ghostlin and MoI attack on me another time, probably tomorrow, but even though I disagree with them and noted a few suspicious things, I think there isn't enough material to cast a doubt on their alignment.

[sorgster]

So here I am, after 'borrowing' a stranger's wifi. I selected a few people to talk about.

• David Xanatos
  
  Self-vote during RVS might not seem dangerous, but it denies the town abilities to read one's first vote. Decision happens during the every stage of the game and voting during the first stages can be a daunting strategical task. That being said, there is no reason to make a fuss over it because it's not enough to build a case on someone. It can be due to lazyness and that strikes everyone scums like townies. He declared V a V/LA short after starting the game and though I feel he posted less than what he showed me once (ongoing game), his case is staled.
  
  Verdict :
  Suspicious
  
  
  
  
• IceGuy
  
  I am quite puzzled by this wagon. He is making sense in his posts and he is coherent with himself. Attacking StefanB for opportunism was a major town tell at this point, he posted his thoughts and didn't drop his case on StefanB under the pressure. Overall his play is far more consistent than most of the town.
  
  Verdict :
  Probably Town
  
  
  
  
• StefanB
  
  His first posts are targeting lurkers, and discussing minor topics. He reacted to Global Warming's claim which is a good thing. Aside from the curious reaction of my vote on MoI, (taking seriously a one-liner + vote when he isn't the person tageted), his behavior after this change completely. He starts arguing with people (namely IceGuy), changes his vote thrice and gives poor argumentation for that, backpedal on his own argumentation.I consider picking a target and working on a lynch more town-aligned than vote-hopping and hoping that somehow a scum is in the ballot. His low consistency don't please me.
  
  Verdict :
  Probably Scum
  
  
  
  
• BabySpice
  
  She mostly tried to explained an early vote on MagisterLudi who was (to my understanding) 'spamming'. She answered quite concisely to yos' questions and though I don't always understand her syntax, she doesn't strike me as scum.
  @BabySpice : A serious wagon is a wagon designed to lynch someone you think is scum. In order to get your target lynched, you need to work on asking him questions, analyzing his play and cornering his answers trying to provoke a mistake.
  
  Verdict :
  Neutral

According to that : VOTE: StefanB

I will cover Ghostlin and MoI attack on me another time, probably tomorrow, but even though I disagree with them and noted a few suspicious things, I think there isn't enough material to cast a doubt on their alignment.

Please defend yourself first.

[IceGuy]

Regarding the circlejerk: I'm talking about the style of arguments.

I think somebody is town? Obviously I'm scum with him because I'm defending him.
I think somebody is scum? Obviously I'm scum with him because I'm bussing him.
I think somebody is neutral or have largely ignored him? Obviously I'm scum with him trying to avoid connections.

---

Regarding opportunistic voting: I'm not talking about all people who are voting me, I'm talking about players such as EtherealCookie.

ISO #0: Confirming.
ISO #1: RVS.
ISO #2: One sentence regarding player in ISO #3.
ISO #3: Paragraph consisting mostly of things other people have said and voting a player who is in the center of criticism and gaining votes.
ISO #4: Vote on me without justification, just as my wagon is getting hot.

And I'm not saying "without justification I accept", I'm saying literally without justification:

Unvote

Vote: IceGuy

That's not even pretending to scumhunt.

Or BBmolla:

ISO #0: Confirming.
ISO #1/#2: RVS.
ISO #3: Asking Muffin whether he is scum.
ISO #4: Stand-by post.
ISO #5: Accusing people of being scum because of their reactions to the question in ISO #3.
ISO #6: Defense as he got called out for little activity.
ISO #7: Preparing to join the Otolia wagon as it's getting hot.
ISO #8: Vote on me without justification, just as my wagon is getting hot:

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Iceguy

This is a lynch I can support atm.

I need to get a full reread here pretty soon, gonna try to take notes to gather all my thoughts.

Or Bogre (not voting me but has shown similar behavior):
ISO #0: Confirming.
ISO #1: Vote on Baby Spice with one-liner along the lines of "I agree", as the wagon is getting hot.
ISO #2: Same for Otolia.
ISO #3: One-sentence FOSing StefanB.
ISO #4: One-sentence question to Baby Spice.

[StefanB]

That is efford for Iceguy, Ghostlin? Not so good. Found the game, reading ISOs there now.
Bogre: Why bring Lovecraft in this? And has any mod ever made a GreatOldOne in a role?
Sorry short post today, more I hope tomorrow.
Can't say if I will post on Wednesday, because I have little time that day.

Preview: Were have I backpackelt? IceGuy is corherent? Most of his case Has been disproven. Nothink to talk about other players?
Wow interesting post from IceGuy, but sorry not today.

[Yosarian2]

So you are going to park your vote on BS and focus more or less solely on her while giving lip-service to other scum-hunting?

:eyebrow:

I'm generally going to be voting for the person I think is overall most likely to be scum at any given time, while also looking at and questioning other possible suspects.

Not really sure why you're trying to put a negative spin on that; I suppose this is just you attempting to pressure me to unvote BS, based your claimed town meta-read on her?

[Yosarian2]

Otolia: I would like to hear a defense from you explaining some of your posts on Friday. Specifically, the following things looked weird, anti-town, or scummy to me:

KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!!

Your superior argumentation convinced me to vote for someone I do not want to see by tomorrow.

VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

Followed by:

1. Refusal to scum-hunt.
2. Active lurking.
3. Voting on policy reasons after explicitly saying he was waiting for a valid wagon

What I really want is to see you shut your annoying mouth. That's what I want. I know you feel entitled to lead the town to a marvelous victory because you are so full of yourself you can't possibly imagine yourself not being right, but you might want to tone it a bit. Just for the sake of your head, I worry about your health.

The second post strongly implies that you think (and/or know?) that MoI is town. And yet you are voting for him. This is obviously deeply disturbing, as well as a possible scum slip (not that scum actually know who is town in a multi-group game, but they still tend to think that way, so the "seeming to know someone is town" scum tell works anyway.)

MoI was primarally attacking you for not voting, which seems a reasoanble reason to attack someone. You may agree or disagree about that being a scum tell, I don't care, but I don't get why you are voting him based on that.

Your excuse that "this is a you are annoying vote" and that it was somehow "extended RVS" or something is just bad, and anti-town. You don't vote someone because they annoy you, you vote them if you think they're scum. If that's not what you were doing, then that throws doubt on what win condition you are playing towards.

This next part, which basically felt like you were offering to actually play the game but only if he stopped attacking you and voting for you, was just horribly anti-town.

Here is what we are going to do :

You stop screaming 'MORE OTOLIA VOTES PLEASE !!!!!' every post and I'll answer every questions you and anyone ask me.
You unvote me and I'll invest more time into this game.


PS : I fear this might be interpreted as scum trying to negotiate but at this point, it's better than heading in the wall.

All of this combined really looks like you're more worried about not wanting to be attacked then you are worried about trying to find and lynch scum, and that's generally a scum tell.

[TheJakalope]

It's time for your favorite type of read guys.

EtherealCookie, Iceguy, one is scum. Not both.

[Maxous]

This presumes that IG, as a scum player, would be buddying DY. Often with scum, that's not the case.

No it does'nt.
If they are scum together nobody is gonna be 'buddying'
As for my passive-agressiveness, I don't usually scream bloody murder for somebody to get lynched if that's what you are wondering. Though all of this is self-meta.

And I'm not saying "without justification I accept", I'm saying literally without justification:

-__-
You say this but yet you will not explain how Muffin has been opportunistic when voting you.
There is a reason I have kept harping on about that. And it's not defending anyone.
I see no basis for saying that and suspect you simply fabricated it to attack him. This is not even a case of simply not agreeing with your reasoning, this is a case of seeing no reason that you beleived what you were saying.
Even if you said 'oh my mistake, he was'nt really' that would of been better. But instead you attacked me calling myself and Muffin scum together.
This implies you did'nt want to backtrack with the accusation. (because that prob would seem as scummier to most)


P-Edit: In a multiple scum game?

[Ghostlin]

That is efford for Iceguy, Ghostlin? Not so good. Found the game, reading ISOs there now.
Bogre: Why bring Lovecraft in this? And has any mod ever made a GreatOldOne in a role?
Sorry short post today, more I hope tomorrow.
Can't say if I will post on Wednesday, because I have little time that day.

Preview: Were have I backpackelt? IceGuy is corherent? Most of his case Has been disproven. Nothink to talk about other players?
Wow interesting post from IceGuy, but sorry not today.

I'm pretty much saying there's scummier reads than what I'm getting from IG. I may be stunned and BS and IG may be the ultimate scum team pair that stuns us all in the end and you can all curse my name for listening to me as town loses....

...but I'd rather spend my time with scum like Otalia, EC, and DX. At least on Day 1.

Jak: EC is scum. That's really not much of a revelation. But you're hedging your bets with the more attractive (read: bigger) wagon on #361.

[Yosarian2]

P-Edit: In a multiple scum game?

?

Did you miss the whole discussion earlier about how the mod confirmed in the rules post that this game has both mafia and warewolves?

[Alabaska J]

here!!! reading!!! don't give up on me!!! also yosarian i think that was his point

[Maxous]

I like it when people do the answering for me =D

[Yosarian2]

Ok; then I don't understand your point, since I specifically mentioned that this tell still tends to work in a multiple scum group game.

[Maxous]

?
I was referring to:

EtherealCookie, Iceguy, one is scum. Not both.

Since this is presumeably based off thier interactions with eachother.

[Alabaska J]

Actually, it was pretty absurd. Its fluff questioning. No one is claiming scum unless they're undertaking a massive gambit, have lost their mind, or are delusional. Your question doesn't advance the game. And, You actually dropped your absolutely imperative line of questioning of zmuffin after he told you to sod off. Doesn't feel right.

Are you scum???

agreed here but…

I also feel that scum want to appear active and really into the game, i.e. "I'm rereading" "will be rereading soon guys!". The fact that otolia is worried that he might not be seen to be participating one day into this game, when some people haven't posted yet, appears self conscious in a scummy sort of way.

lynch all lurkers early on has been and never will be a good strategy. this is wifom c'mon man sit down man

Firstly, I never called you stupid. I said " if you insisted on pretending to be stupid". Not the same thing at all, indeed to pretend to be stupid would rather imply that you're not. Yet another nice misrep there.

oh please. speaking of misreps…

Also, we are miller

i believe this because it is day one. you have me sold for now…

We are a great beast and therefore we are treated for investigative roles as a werewolf.
Does it actually matter what kind of miller?

With Maf and Wolf scumgroups, I think it absolutely does matter, since there are wiki roles that differentiate between being able to return guilties on Mafia versus guilties on Werewolves.

And you're being serious? In a game with "secret society" flavor, you're a "great beast?"

I have to admit that I'm a little wary of the claim just because it didn't come out from the very beginning from y'all, but at a minimum, we shouldn't be lynching you today.

Entirely unrelated, the Baby Spice wagon isn't bad, but y'all really should join TheJakalope wagon. Ever since getting called out for his weaksauce "here are three dudes, one isn't town!" post, all he has done has justify his own play, he hasn't done any actual scumhunting. None. I really want this guy lynched today.

Ludi, I need to meta you. Do you have a recent town game and scum game I can look at?

after the great beast claim though i have the same reservations as above. you had me for a minute or so though! not saying you aren't miller, but this is a little fishy. not prepared to guess at roles, and a miller claim is an interesting gambit for scum to pull (if there is a vig he'll probably target you if you are wondering why, but with two mafias there may not be a vig and this may be a safer claim)

As yosarian2 would say '(shrug)'

Is there any reason it is difficult to get votes right here?

Absolute flaunting of his non-scum hunting lurking play and buddying to Yos.

KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!!

agreed here as well. i get a town vibe from Magna overall.

thus ends the first wall of text…i have to go grocery shopping so later i will post more

[EtherealCookie]

Regarding opportunistic voting: I'm not talking about all people who are voting me, I'm talking about players such as EtherealCookie.

ISO #0: Confirming.
ISO #1: RVS.
ISO #2: One sentence regarding player in ISO #3.
ISO #3: Paragraph consisting mostly of things other people have said and voting a player who is in the center of criticism and gaining votes.
ISO #4: Vote on me without justification, just as my wagon is getting hot.

And I'm not saying "without justification I accept", I'm saying literally without justification:

Unvote

Vote: IceGuy

That's not even pretending to scumhunt.

Or BBmolla:

ISO #0: Confirming.
ISO #1/#2: RVS.
ISO #3: Asking Muffin whether he is scum.
ISO #4: Stand-by post.
ISO #5: Accusing people of being scum because of their reactions to the question in ISO #3.
ISO #6: Defense as he got called out for little activity.
ISO #7: Preparing to join the Otolia wagon as it's getting hot.
ISO #8: Vote on me without justification, just as my wagon is getting hot:

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Iceguy

This is a lynch I can support atm.

I need to get a full reread here pretty soon, gonna try to take notes to gather all my thoughts.

Or Bogre (not voting me but has shown similar behavior):
ISO #0: Confirming.
ISO #1: Vote on Baby Spice with one-liner along the lines of "I agree", as the wagon is getting hot.
ISO #2: Same for Otolia.
ISO #3: One-sentence FOSing StefanB.
ISO #4: One-sentence question to Baby Spice.

Actually, you've been flipping out against everyone that's voted for you, not just those who have given no justification.

[sageamagoo]

3: There's a diference between accusing and arguing. Example: saying "OMG, {whoever} is obv-scum because {opinion} end of discussion get on my wagon or else you're scum too!" instead of saying "OMG, {whoever} is scum because {opinion} and {possible quote} anyone else wish to add to this? I could be wrong." Most likely the second one is the townie. MoI, I believe, is not the second one.

Ok, since I see you floating this I have to ask – what is your Mafia experience?

4: Finally, the Whisper thing wasn't important. She's got a very good gut instinct, and can make a great case. That's all. Plus, I hate being in a game where everyone's killed all the smart ones.

So you look at the playerlist and Whisper is the player you chose to single out as “a smart one” that you were worried about losing? Despite no content from Whisper at all?

1: 100% MeatWorld and proud of it. (Okay, I played one non-MS online game and am in the middle of a few MS games, but no completed MS yet).

2: "single out" because she was the smartest one in a game I'm in. Actually, now that I'm looking closer i see that she really hasn't posted anything yet 0_o. @Whisper: C'mon, if you aren't gonna post anything you really do deserve a replacement.

[whispersilk]

So yeah, Hi, I'm whisper. I've been pretty much AWOL from the site for over a week, which frankly, has had little impact on my posting level in this game. See 2.

10 Things you should know about me:

1/ I am female.
2/ I lurk, especially day 1, and especially in larger games. Why? Because I find scum better when I read pages and pages of a game at once, rather than keeping up with the game in real time, and because I like to sit back and watch interactions between players before getting involved. Deal with it. It's how I play.
3/ I might suggest the town do crazy things, or do crazy things myself. Why? See 1.
4/ Archer is my favourite cartoon, and Sterling Archer is my hero.
5/ I might AtE often, especially when it's crucial that I remain in the game. Why? See 1.
6/ That being said, I have, and will, willingly sacrifice myself if it's in the best interests of the town.
7/ I will tunnel those that I want to tunnel.
8/ I don't often post reads.
9/ I always follow my gut, but I also pay attention to meta.
10/ There is method to my madness.

I'm going to read over everything for a 3rd time, and post all my questions and thoughts tomorrow.

UNVOTE:

[whispersilk]

sageamagoo, stop calling me smart. I've never even played with you before.

[sageamagoo]

sageamagoo, stop calling me smart. I've never even played with you before.

Yeah, I replaced right after you died...

And sorry. I said it once, and everyone hated me for it. It's not like I was going to lie and say "No, NVM she's dumb as a post." If people stopped scumilizing me for it I'd stop.