Mini 1250: That 70s Smalltown - GAME OVER

[ConSpiracy]

"but what's even funnier is that ConSpiracy is arguing that a joke cannot be a reaction test." => implying

[Quilford]

Wasn't intended.

[iamausername]

I find it incredibly scummy that iama is preparing a reads list in the "unlikely event that MoI is actually town". That reads heavily as scum distancing themselves from the flip. Why aren't we getting a list for the supposedky more likely event that MoI flips scum?

Because he's probably not going to vengekill his scumbuddies.

Aaaaaaaand?

This means there is not much point in trying to figure out who is scum if MoI is scum for the purpose of deciding who should be on his lynching wagon.

Did you actually read post 186? Do you understand the purpose of the lists I was talking about there?

[farside22]

No, me trying to make the MoI wagon bigger is noted. You all cling far too much to PR's being very useful. Some may help to an extend, but the day is still more important.

We don't need to lose the informative role today. If the player is town it helps the town.
If most find MOI scummy he will be lynched without him.
You think he is IceGuy is scummy?

And one game is a total meta read since when? You know better farside, you know better.

Can't use ongoing games unless your claiming scum that game.
And you have told me on multiple occasions you always find me scummy. So......


Quilford: I asked you a question too here.
post 196

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, large catch-up post incoming …

IceGuy is town.
Farside is town

If Iceguy is scum as I suspect hiplop makes a very logical partner at this stage. He's playing to hiplop scum meta at this stage.

--

You know what, I was going to make another zebra quote post responding to MoI's latest nonsense, but it seems like that would just be creating unnecessary noise preaching to the choir, so I'm just going to do this instead.

Lulz. Appeal to Majority noted.

We don't want to hammer him without figuring out a) which roles are most expendable if town, and b) who is most likely to be scum in the unlikely event that MoI is actually town, because people high on those lists are the ones we want on the wagon.

Sure, go through this exercise if you want. I’ll be shooting who I perceive to be the most likely scum on my wagon regardless of what ‘role utility’ nonsense gets put together if my lynch does go through.

Hey .. instead of playing ‘role utility guru’ why don’t you drop a list of 3 names who you think would be most likely scum when I do flip Town.

--

@MOI: Do you think Seacore is scum?

A this juncture he’s not in my Top 3. His combination of “Policy lynch on role”, “Ridicule those who talk about actual scum-hunting” and “Direct all actions” I find scummy but his explanantion of the first part as a means to get out of RVS is somewhat credible given his later posts.

Why would scum do this? What is wrong with trying to get out of RVS?

Again … nothing wrong with getting out of RVS. But until he really came back to thread and stopped actually pushing kdowns on that element alone I’m wasn’t going to assume that was his motive.

This also ignores the other elements of his play I found suspect.

Why Cons or Iam?

Con’s push on Quilford is craptastic.

Iam’s focus on Organizing Night actions and Roles as opposed to significant scum-hunting is scummy IMO.

I notice you don’t ask why I listed Iceguy. What is your read on him?

What's wrong with that?

Are you seriously asking me why the following two situations aren’t parallel at all and trying to suggest the course of action in this game should be driven by the second?

Coordinating actions in a SmallTown game with no dead scum Day1

Coordinating actions in a SmallTown game with 2 of 3 Mafia and 0 Town dead by the start of day 2.

They are two VERY different game-states but Iam’s attempting to say the results of that last game indicate how we should proceed in this on are at best Anti-Town.

What does your second question have to do with your first question?

1. The ‘plan’ as I see it floated is that Quilford ‘has’ to JK Seacore to preserve his Day 3 innocent possibility (which isn’t overwhelmingly useful IMO but that’s another argument).
2. Cons is suggesting lynching Quilford (the JK) on crappy reasons.
3. The only reason lynching Quilford Day 1 makes sense is if he thinks Seacore is also scum. Because otherwise even if Quilford is scum Seacore not living to Day 2 means he is confirmed scum under the “plan” and will be lynched on sight Day 2.

Thus it is very important to know what Cons’s stance on Seacore’s alignment is. Especially since the ‘plan’ predicates exactly what hypothetical scum Quilford would have to do N1 (or at least prevent the scum team from killing hypothetical Town Seacore.

But thanks to Iam and yourself that’s line of questioning has been blown up.

I think MOI lied about his reason's for picking his role.

Oh, so I lied about why I picked vengeful which was before I knew my alignment. Good to know

--

So scum, just make a bad case on one of your partners and MoI will give him a free pass.

Pure fluff right here.

Again, mudslinging. You don't care at all when scum is infiltrating the circle?

Because it’s a fully open game. No inherent significant ‘Town advantage’ to a Neighborhood that isn’t hidden. Period. As I’ve said before and that you ignored.

Why do you keep crying “Infiltrating the Neighborhood” is some very damaging thing to Town? You can’t provide any reason why it is.

And mudslinging again. Why are you simultaneously conceding farside isn't confirmed town, while refusing the possibility she's scum?

Why do you want to deal in absolutes when it comes to town and scum reads?

Complete misrep. Please quote where I refuse to believe the possibility she’s scum.

In the meantime you again dodge the facts - that you are predicating the so-called advantages to Town of directing her action when it’s only advantageous if she is scum. And you steadfastly refuse to take a stance on that element.

So once again – Do you think Farside is scum? Yes or no please, no fluffing or dodging.

He can always argue he didn't think that was a town player and was behaving scummy. Even a town JK is going to block a town player once in a while. Fact 1 is Lie 1.

Your refutation fails to consider that said claim can be examined by the Town and judged. Fail on Lie Attack 1.

So the inventor, which might postpone LyLo for one day, is "innocuous" in your eyes? And you're not even mentioning the kill delayer and copycat, which also have a night action? Nice try. Fact 2 is Lie 2.

Yes, the possible scenario where the Inventor becomes “powerful” is such a narrow case that has NOTHING to due with current game-state I do call it innocuous.

I don’t mention either the Kill Delayer or Copycat because it is pretty obvious neither one is strong. The Kill Delayer is a much weakened Doc.

Please elaborate on why the Copycat is powerful.

Fail on Lie Attack 2.

Yes, it was mud-slinging, because I wasn't appealing to fear, I was showing why your plan is anti-town.

Yes, you were Appealing to Fear. That’s exactly what yelling “OH MY GOD THE DANGER” is when the ‘dangers’ you provided don’t reflect the realities of how Mafia is actually played.

Also once again – you are the one with the Plan (direct all Night actions). I’m just pointing how bad that plan is.

Regarding your meta – I’m just going to chuckle and leave it at that. If you think a single game where I changed alignment midstream is going to suddenly let you read my scum games you are either scum making it up (which I think you are) or pretty stupid. We’ll see after the game is over.

My vote happily rests on you beceause Tracker is a powerful Town role … but you are scum so lynching you is Pro-Town.

Most of the case was based on your behavior D2 and later.

I’ll let people read the red and see all the false ‘scummy’ play you highlighted about my Day 1 play that wasn’t from a Scum perspective since I was Town.

And why didn’t you highlight any posts where you went off on some tangent making long posts ‘proving’ I was partners with Scum-hunter again? Oh that’s right … it would show how bad your play was there. Hmmm … then again that would bolster the perception you are now Town since your play is equally bad here.

No, I know when you get lynched, you're going to try to kill me because you're scum and I have the most powerful town power - as you said yourself. And since my power is useless to the town if I'm killed D1, I'm not giving scum-MoI that shot.

I was hoping you’d make this sort of argument. Because it is total crap.

Scum don’t have an incentive to try to push on perceived Pro-Town roles. Because they have a Nightkill. DERP.

Here’s the facts. There are no full Doctors in this game. At best you can be either

1. JKed at night to protect you – in which case your power doesn’t work and you are useless to Town
2. Killed Delayed at night – you get one successful track in before you bite the dust. Hardly the grand danger to scum since you could possibly only get 1 guilty before dying (and that is dependant on you actually making the right call Tracking the killer).

These both assume you are Town. In that case it benefits scum to NOT push for your lynch. Under your ludicrous scenario scum risks being Identified pushing on you as ‘Town Powerful Role” and then you possibly getting a successful track on them Night 1.

But that’s why I think you are scum … your play is scummy. You use rhetoric and Appeals to Repetition as opposed to using logic to analyse motives. You use Appeals to Fear to smear those pointing out how your ‘Direct all Night actions’ plan is Pro-scum. You call someone scum but then refuse to vote them because you are afraid for your life – that’s a Scum motivation not a Town one.

So once again … I’m calling you scum because you are scum. Scum scared to actually vote for the Vengeful Townie.

What is better: Lynching scum and not losing tracker or lynching scum and losing tracker?

I expect the wagon to go forward without my vote.

Classic false dichotomy. You only consider the possibility I am scum. Town of course tend to not be 100% sure as you are presenting here. But that’s of course because you are scum.

[farside22]

Iam’s focus on Organizing Night actions and Roles as opposed to significant scum-hunting is scummy IMO.

I notice you don’t ask why I listed Iceguy. What is your read on him?

I don't have a problem with organizing roles. It can put scum in a bind for example if Seacore is town and keeping him alive till day 3.
If Quilford or Jason is scum and they let the soto cop die there better be a good fucking reason for this or they are looking like scum.

The neighborizor/inventor will need to answer for their actions the next day in my view. I think both should give to those they find the most pro-town.

As for my role I have debated the issue. Whether I take Iam's views or not is up to me. I expect my choice to be up for scrunity. Plus if the soto cop does die, me taking over the role does help the town.

As for IceGuy. I'm leaning town. I don't see the points you made as him being scum. I still need to read your latest big post in full. I need to get to work and I'm running late right now to finish.

1. The ‘plan’ as I see it floated is that Quilford ‘has’ to JK Seacore to preserve his Day 3 innocent possibility (which isn’t overwhelmingly useful IMO but that’s another argument).
2. Cons is suggesting lynching Quilford (the JK) on crappy reasons.
3. The only reason lynching Quilford Day 1 makes sense is if he thinks Seacore is also scum. Because otherwise even if Quilford is scum Seacore not living to Day 2 means he is confirmed scum under the “plan” and will be lynched on sight Day 2.

Your also the one stating we should not be judging players on their role. Which is it?
Lets say CS thinks Seacore is town. Then the above I pointed out is good. If he thinks Seacore is scum then it doesn't matter if the JK is kept alive.

Oh, so I lied about why I picked vengeful which was before I knew my alignment. Good to know

Thanks for admitting such!

Will finish the long post from MOI later.

[IceGuy]

So scum, just make a bad case on one of your partners and MoI will give him a free pass.

Pure fluff right here.

Here is the same "fluff" in your own words:

And I’ll tell you once again – I do NOT find kdown’s response to the ‘case’ scummy in the least. Because the case itself is scummy.

Because it’s a fully open game. No inherent significant ‘Town advantage’ to a Neighborhood that isn’t hidden. Period. As I’ve said before and that you ignored.

Why do you keep crying “Infiltrating the Neighborhood” is some very damaging thing to Town? You can’t provide any reason why it is.

*facepalm*

Are you seriously asking me how a scum-and-town neighborhood is worse than an only-town neighborhood?

Complete misrep. Please quote where I refuse to believe the possibility she’s scum.

You're pushing a plan that doesn't change anything if she's town and benefits us if she's scum.

In the meantime you again dodge the facts - that you are predicating the so-called advantages to Town of directing her action when it’s only advantageous if she is scum. And you steadfastly refuse to take a stance on that element.

So once again – Do you think Farside is scum? Yes or no please, no fluffing or dodging.

What is so hard to understand about "I have a plan that doesn't change anything if she's town and benefits us if she's scum, so I'm in favor of implementing it unless she's confirmed town"?

I currently have her as neutral leaning town.

He can always argue he didn't think that was a town player and was behaving scummy. Even a town JK is going to block a town player once in a while. Fact 1 is Lie 1.

Your refutation fails to consider that said claim can be examined by the Town and judged. Fail on Lie Attack 1.

What has this answer to do with my refutation? Read it, understand it and try to reply.

So the inventor, which might postpone LyLo for one day, is "innocuous" in your eyes? And you're not even mentioning the kill delayer and copycat, which also have a night action? Nice try. Fact 2 is Lie 2.

Yes, the possible scenario where the Inventor becomes “powerful” is such a narrow case that has NOTHING to due with current game-state I do call it innocuous.

So LyLo is a "narrow case" in your eyes? Also, I only mentioned one possible course of Inventor action.

I don’t mention either the Kill Delayer or Copycat because it is pretty obvious neither one is strong. The Kill Delayer is a much weakened Doc.

Please elaborate on why the Copycat is powerful.

Fail on Lie Attack 2.

I'm not explaining the basics of Mafia to you. We have a very good wiki where you can look up what the PRs' powers are and how they can swing the game in favor of their alignment.

Yes, you were Appealing to Fear. That’s exactly what yelling “OH MY GOD THE DANGER” is when the ‘dangers’ you provided don’t reflect the realities of how Mafia is actually played.

*yawn*

You're not the god of Mafia. And you're lying.

Also once again – you are the one with the Plan (direct all Night actions). I’m just pointing how bad that plan is.

So far, you only tried to show why your "plan" (i.e. uncoordinated town) is not worse. I haven't seen a single argument that is even trying to show why it's better.

Regarding your meta – I’m just going to chuckle and leave it at that. If you think a single game where I changed alignment midstream is going to suddenly let you read my scum games you are either scum making it up (which I think you are) or pretty stupid. We’ll see after the game is over.

Considering I'm comparing your behavior on D2 (when you were scum) to your behavior now, your point is invalid.

My vote happily rests on you beceause Tracker is a powerful Town role … but you are scum so lynching you is Pro-Town.

Here is a shining example of this. "You're scum" repeated over and over to both drain my energy and hope something sticks.

I’ll let people read the red and see all the false ‘scummy’ play you highlighted about my Day 1 play that wasn’t from a Scum perspective since I was Town.

As I mentioned, this doesn't matter as I'm comparing your scum play on D2 to your scum play now. And the similarities are striking.

And why didn’t you highlight any posts where you went off on some tangent making long posts ‘proving’ I was partners with Scum-hunter again? Oh that’s right … it would show how bad your play was there. Hmmm … then again that would bolster the perception you are now Town since your play is equally bad here.

It's still funny you're calling my play "bad" when we called two out of three scum on Day 2, and the only reason we didn't call the third scum correctly was a) a vanilla townie (who was later modkilled for his behavior) with a very bad fake cop claim and b) we not knowing you were recruited instead of being scum from the start.

I was hoping you’d make this sort of argument. Because it is total crap.

Scum don’t have an incentive to try to push on perceived Pro-Town roles. Because they have a Nightkill. DERP.

Except that a lynch or vengekill can not be protected or prohibited by any means, but a NK can.

Here’s the facts. There are no full Doctors in this game. At best you can be either

1. JKed at night to protect you – in which case your power doesn’t work and you are useless to Town
2. Killed Delayed at night – you get one successful track in before you bite the dust. Hardly the grand danger to scum since you could possibly only get 1 guilty before dying (and that is dependant on you actually making the right call Tracking the killer).

I want to be kill delayed so I can get one investigation. And it does not depend on tracking the killer; proving somebody did something different to what he claimed is also enough.

These both assume you are Town. In that case it benefits scum to NOT push for your lynch. Under your ludicrous scenario scum risks being Identified pushing on you as ‘Town Powerful Role” and then you possibly getting a successful track on them Night 1.

Pure bullshit. Scum wants me to gather as little information as possible, which means me dying D1.

But that’s why I think you are scum … your play is scummy. You use rhetoric and Appeals to Repetition as opposed to using logic to analyse motives. You use Appeals to Fear to smear those pointing out how your ‘Direct all Night actions’ plan is Pro-scum. You call someone scum but then refuse to vote them because you are afraid for your life – that’s a Scum motivation not a Town one.

So once again … I’m calling you scum because you are scum. Scum scared to actually vote for the Vengeful Townie.

Classic false dichotomy. You only consider the possibility I am scum. Town of course tend to not be 100% sure as you are presenting here. But that’s of course because you are scum.

tl;dr:

See, this is what I meant by typical scum-MoI play. Repeating "you're scum" over and over; bringing up points that already have been refuted many times; inventing "scumtells"; and taking statements out of context to make them appear scummy. Bonus points for claiming something is scummy and then doing it yourself (I'm sure you're scum because you're sure I'm scum!)

There is no pro-town motivation for such play.

[iamausername]

Hey .. instead of playing ‘role utility guru’ why don’t you drop a list of 3 names who you think would be most likely scum when I do flip Town.

If you are town, I think scum would be very wary of getting onto your wagon for fear of being vengekilled, so I think they'd have trouble figuring out what to do in this situation. You getting lynched and taking out another townie is the best possible outcome for them, so they wouldn't want to do anything to discourage the wagon, but taking an active part in pushing it carries the risk of getting shot.

I think a town player who disagreed with the wagon, or didn't understand the case, or just thought they had a better case on someone else, would say something about it. Quilford and hiplop have both pointedly failed to address your wagon in any way, even when I specifically ellicited questions about the case by not explaining my vote. So they'd be my top two.

I have some degree of town read on every other active player, and there's really nothing much to separate the lurkers at this point, so take your pick from jason, kondi, kdowns and mb53 for the third slot.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Are you seriously asking me how a scum-and-town neighborhood is worse than an only-town neighborhood?

No, I’m asking you to justify your stance IN A COMPLETELY OPEN GAME that Neighborhoods are inherently powerful at all.

This isn’t a normal game. The potential power of a Neighborizor comes in sharing information in a hidden fashion. allowing for Town to potentially share information and reads that scum doesn't know about. That’s can’t happen here. Eric’s ability is basically just an extension of the normal thread.

Do you not understand this difference?

You're pushing a plan that doesn't change anything if she's town and benefits us if she's scum.

I’m not pushing any plan. I’m just calling yours anti-Town. Continue to lie about that over and over and over.

I currently have her as neutral leaning town.

Oh, so you finally gave a read. Was that so hard?

What has this answer to do with my refutation? Read it, understand it and try to reply.

Lulz. I understand. You are trying to present a scenario that ignores the actual dayplay involved.

So LyLo is a "narrow case" in your eyes? Also, I only mentioned one possible course of Inventor action.

Yes, it is an absolutely ‘narrow’ case.

1. It purposes that Inventor is Town.
2. It purposes the Inventor is alive at LYLO.
3. It purposes the Inventor still has access to the power in question.

Why didn’t you mention any other “Inventor is powerful” actions then? I just blew up the one you offered and you aren't backing up your position.

I'm not explaining the basics of Mafia to you. We have a very good wiki where you can look up what the PRs' powers are and how they can swing the game in favor of their alignment.

Mwhahahah. I admit Ice … for a scum you have balls. I understand Mafia well. It’s why I have that shiny Scummie award and a history of being killed as Town N1.

I do have serious questions about your ability to understand the game and how it is actually played outside the ‘Wiki’ given what you are posting.

You're not the god of Mafia. And you're lying.

Empty answer. I’m not lying. The Wiki you so love to direct me to has explantions of why appealing to fear and repetition are scum tactics. Maybe you can read up on it!!!

So far, you only tried to show why your "plan" (i.e. uncoordinated town) is not worse. I haven't seen a single argument that is even trying to show why it's better.

I’ve already explained the Number one reason why it is better – providing scum with a detailed map to Town Night actions gives scum more information by which to effectively use their actions. Just look up Andrius’s “Return to Mordor” Mini Theme to see exactly why – Fate rode his “We have a plan to absolutely win the game by coordinating actions” plan all the way to a Town loss.

But keep ignoring it and using the “You can't prove why" stance over and over ...

Here is a shining example of this. "You're scum" repeated over and over to both drain my energy and hope something sticks.

Oh I’m sorry … whut? I’m scum for repeating something over and over again? Like ‘mudslinging’ which you’ve posted over and over again.

Hypocrisy.

It's still funny you're calling my play "bad" when we called two out of three scum on Day 2, and the only reason we didn't call the third scum correctly was a) a vanilla townie (who was later modkilled for his behavior) with a very bad fake cop claim and b)

we not knowing you were recruited instead of being scum from the start.

It was bad. You keep clinging to the “I called 2 of 3 scum” mantra and making excuses for why you didn’t find the third (who you kept defending as Town, BTW).

What was the outcome of that game? Scum sweep. I’m calling you bad because you had all this ‘knowledge’ and in the end you weren’t able to convince people to actually follow you. Because your cases were poorly presented and lacked compelling logic.

I want to be kill delayed so I can get one investigation. And it does not depend on tracking the killer; proving somebody did something different to what he claimed is also enough.

LOL. You do understand that scum have no motivation to divert from your ‘direct all night action’ plan anyway so the only way you would catch scum (and not the Serial Killer since they are Track immune) is to observe the Nightkill.

Pure bullshit. Scum wants me to gather as little information as possible, which means me dying D1.

It’s called using logic. You can’t actually refute what I am saying so you just call it bullshit. Weak.

Pointless rhetoric in large font and bolded here …

There is no pro-town motivation for such play.

I chuckle at the if I make it bold and large it becomes more true stance you are taking here.

I’m hunting scum. You are scum.

Scum absolutely terrified to actually vote for the player you think is scum because you know he will take you out.

Scum. There ... I added the last part so you could whine about me calling you scum some more

[MagnaofIllusion]

If you are town, I think scum would be very wary of getting onto your wagon for fear of being vengekilled, so I think they'd have trouble figuring out what to do in this situation. You getting lynched and taking out another townie is the best possible outcome for them, so they wouldn't want to do anything to discourage the wagon, but taking an active part in pushing it carries the risk of getting shot.

So you are saying they’d avoid voting for me because it could get them killed. Just like Iceguy is doing. Noted.

Quilford and hiplop have both pointedly failed to address your wagon in any way, even when I specifically ellicited questions about the case by not explaining my vote. So they'd be my top two.

Regarding Quilford that’s clearly a lie – here is the quote where he specifically comments on my wagon (indirectly) –

I find it incredibly scummy that iama is preparing a reads list in the "unlikely event that MoI is actually town". That reads heavily as scum distancing themselves from the flip. Why aren't we getting a list for the supposedky more likely event that MoI flips scum?

He accuses you of distancing from an eventual Town flip. The inference is that he doesn't see it as a scum wagon (although he can speak for himself on this).

I agree that hiplop is doing a great job of basically not commenting on anything.

My wagon consists of

Mb53 – lurker RVS vote
Conspiracy
Farside
Iam

[IceGuy]

I’m not pushing any plan. I’m just calling yours anti-Town.

So you're saying directing night actions is anti-Town, yet you're not pushing for not directing night actions? Or how I'm supposed to interpret this?

I’ve already explained the Number one reason why it is better – providing scum with a detailed map to Town Night actions gives scum more information by which to effectively use their actions.

Except you haven't shown how this is supposed to work. An unsubstantiated claim isn't an argument.

It was bad. You keep clinging to the “I called 2 of 3 scum” mantra and making excuses for why you didn’t find the third (who you kept defending as Town, BTW).

Let this sink in for a moment:

We were VT.

We had two VIs on our team.

We had a VT fake-claiming cop.

We didn't know MoI was recruited or that there even was a recruiting ability.

Yet, we called two out of three scum on D2.

Yes,

this

is what MoI calls bad play.

What was the outcome of that game? Scum sweep. I’m calling you bad because you had all this ‘knowledge’ and in the end you weren’t able to convince people to actually follow you. Because your cases were poorly presented and lacked compelling logic.

Another lie. By Day 3, we had every Town player following us, with the exceptions of SleepyKrew and vezok, two well-known VIs. See, for instance, this rant about vezok's, uhm, play.

Scum only won the game because vezok quick-hammered MoI (it was an execution-style game, i.e. you didn't vote for the guy that should die, but for the guy who should decide who should die) on LyLo day. All scum had to do was quickhammer.

You didn't win this game because of your play, you won it despite your play.

LOL. You do understand that scum have no motivation to divert from your ‘direct all night action’ plan anyway so the only way you would catch scum (and not the Serial Killer since they are Track immune) is to observe the Nightkill.

Look, another benefit to my plan! Thanks for finally agreeing with me it is a good plan because it keeps scum from doing their own thing!

(Just kidding, MoI is lying. For instance, a scum Inventor who is supposed to give an item to $player could use his factional kill on him and give it to a scumbuddy instead.)

It’s called using logic. You can’t actually refute what I am saying so you just call it bullshit. Weak.

Yeah, because scum letting a tracker live longer than necessary is

obviously

logical.

---

Anyway, what we need are more MoI votes. The following players please get their vote on MoI, in this order of preference:
kdowns
kondi

The following players please stay off the MoI wagon at all costs:
Seacore
Quilford
Jason

[MagnaofIllusion]

So you're saying directing night actions is anti-Town, yet you're not pushing for not directing night actions? Or how I'm supposed to interpret this?

WTF is this? Seriously.

I’ve called the people floating the “we have to direct all Night actions” scummy. How is that not pushing for not directing Night actions?

I don’t understand how you can come to any other conclusion.

Oh wait … I take that back … it’s because you are scum.

Except you haven't shown how this is supposed to work. An unsubstantiated claim isn't an argument.

I so want to go get your quote about explaining how Mafia works and post it here.

But I’ll explain.

Under your ‘plan’ all Night actions are directed. Thus scum (including the Serial Killer, who is also scum) knows

1. Exactly who is getting Jailkept.
2. Exactly who is getting Kill delayed.

Thus scum can absolutely make sure their Kills target some to die.

Furthermore let’s look at the list of roles –

Neighborizor and Inventor are able to be directly confirmed in thread simply by claiming of Night actions.

Copycat and Tracker can theoretically be confirmed in thread by the claiming target and any effects BEFORE others claim.

Kill Delayer, JK, and Universal Backup can only be Negatively confirmed (aka by the death of their supposed target) or confirmed by the use of Copycat / Tracker (although I only think Tracker can confirm the UB).

BP, Limited Cop, Doublevoter Invisible Townie, and Vengeful have no Night actions. They can only be Tracked to show the Nightkill (and the Invisible Townie can’t be found this way).

There is no need to direct the Neighborizor / Inventor since those actions can be confirmed in thread. Thus relational tells are created each day as Eric and Bob justify their choices.

You are proposing you not be directed since yours is a scum-hunting role. Thus the Copycat shouldn’t be either for the same reason.

That leaves directing the Kill Delayer, JK and Universal Backup.

Leaving roles like the Copycat and Kill Delayer (and others, since you like to play the nitpick game) free to make choices and justify them give scum less predictable information with which to plan their strategies and makes them more prone to being caught via claims even without a Tracker / Copycat counterclaim. Furthermore there are enough roles without Night actions that it is entirely possible that your plan doesn't hinder Mafia scum at all in accomplishing their goals at Night (and your plan is completely useless against the Serial Killer).

Again ... all making concrete plans in an open game assures that scum know exactly how to 'beat' the system.
Hell go look at Andrius's Return to Mordor game. By Day 2 Town was trying to direct all claimed actions and near endgame Town had a 'foolproof' plan to win that, of course, blew up in their face resulting in a scum win.

(Just kidding, MoI is lying. For instance, a scum Inventor who is supposed to give an item to $player could use his factional kill on him and give it to a scumbuddy instead.)

Even better reason not to direct the Inventor so he has to justify his choices. Glad a little bit of logic has seeped into your head.

Another lie. By Day 3, we had every Town player following us, with the exceptions of SleepyKrew and vezok, two well-known VIs. See, for instance, this rant about vezok's, uhm, play.

You didn't win this game because of your play, you won it despite your play.

What’s that flavor I’m tasting? Is it the flavor of sour grapes?

Yeah, because scum letting a tracker live longer than necessary is obviously logical.

See, you once again are dodging the issue. There is no reason for scum to go after the Tracker slot (assuming the Tracker is Town) for lynch without reasoning. So your point that I'm simply pushing you because you are the Tracker is absurd.

[IceGuy]

So you're saying directing night actions is anti-Town, yet you're not pushing for not directing night actions? Or how I'm supposed to interpret this?

WTF is this? Seriously.

Yeah, I thought the same thing when you said this:

I’m not pushing any plan. I’m just calling yours anti-Town.

So...

I’m not pushing any plan. I’m just calling yours anti-Town.

I’ve called the people floating the “we have to direct all Night actions” scummy. How is that not pushing for not directing Night actions?

WTF is this? Seriously.

Under your ‘plan’ all Night actions are directed.

Wrong:

Neighborizer, backup, and inventor all need to be directed since:
[...]
The other night actions could be undirected, with the exception of JK and kill delay with regard to Seacore; but it also might make sense to direct them to deflect the scum's kill from a powerful role.

I proposed the direction of Neighborizer, Backup, Inventor on all nights and JK and kill delay on N1 and N2.

Thus scum (including the Serial Killer, who is also scum) knows

1. Exactly who is getting Jailkept.
2. Exactly who is getting Kill delayed.

Thus scum can absolutely make sure their Kills target some to die.

JK and kill delay actions are obvious for N1 and N2 anyway.

Neighborizor and Inventor are able to be directly confirmed in thread simply by claiming of Night actions.

Copycat and Tracker can theoretically be confirmed in thread by the claiming target and any effects BEFORE others claim.

Confirmability is not an argument for not directing actions; having a confirmable action is also an advantage for directing actions. Having the Tracker claim what they saw before the target can claim makes his investigation worthless in most cases.

Even better reason not to direct the Inventor so he has to justify his choices. Glad a little bit of logic has seeped into your head.

Except in my example, the inventor doesn't need to justify his choice and can safely lie about it, so your argument is invalid.

What’s that flavor I’m tasting? Is it the flavor of sour grapes?

You've got your metaphors mixed up.

See, you once again are dodging the issue. There is no reason for scum to go after the Tracker slot (assuming the Tracker is Town) for lynch without reasoning. So your point that I'm simply pushing you because you are the Tracker is absurd.

I'm not saying you're pushing me

just

because I'm the tracker. It's just that my Tracker ability makes me an excellent target for scum. Do you want to deny this fact?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I proposed the direction of Neighborizer, Backup, Inventor on all nights and JK and kill delay on N1 and N2.

Ok, so your plan speaks to direct three powers on all Nights.

1 of which can only be used once. And the other two of which are publicly confirmable without directing.

Good work.

JK and kill delay actions are obvious for N1 and N2 anyway.

Wrong.

Confirmability is not an argument for not directing actions; having a confirmable action is also an advantage for directing actions.

No. Directing actions that are not of great consequence (yes, I'm directly stating that the Neighborize and Inventor powers are not that strong) robs you of any relational tells that can be drawn from that publicly confirmable set of powers.

Dayplay > Nightplay if you are Town. You someday probably will come to understand this.

Except in my example, the inventor doesn't need to justify his choice and can safely lie about it, so your argument is invalid.

No, it’s not invalid. The second the inventor says “Hey, I passed to the dead person” they are going to be under the looking glass. Oh wait ... you don't both with Dayplay for scum-hunting.

Also the inventor’s Pink Beer is publicly confirmable regardless and the double action is publicly confirmed by MOD if it is used for a double kill (which is part of your Appeal to Fear campaign, right?) so you are fearing that the Scum inventor would hand over a watch to his partner again?

Does not Compute.

I'm not saying you're pushing me just because I'm the tracker. It's just that my Tracker ability makes me an excellent target for scum. Do you want to deny this fact?

Can you read? I’ve already gave a detailed and logical explanation as to why it makes no sense.

I’m pushing you because you are scum. Don’t forget that. I added it in so you could cry “He’s repeating it”.

[IceGuy]

JK and kill delay actions are obvious for N1 and N2 anyway.

Wrong.

Right. We already agreed on JK actions regarding Seacore.

No. Directing actions that are not of great consequence (yes, I'm directly stating that the Neighborize and Inventor powers are not that strong) robs you of any relational tells that can be drawn from that publicly confirmable set of powers.

I see this as I see night kills: might be useful in special, limited situations; generally an useless pool of WIFOM.

Definitely less useful than the benefits gained from directing.

Dayplay > Nightplay if you are Town. You someday probably will come to understand this.

Again, you are not the god of Mafia, stop pretending you are.

Also the inventor’s Pink Beer is publicly confirmable regardless and the double action is publicly confirmed by MOD if it is used for a double kill

A double kill is well worth the scrutiny which can be defended against by "oh he was SO town-looking to me!".

Can you read? I’ve already gave a detailed and logical explanation as to why it makes no sense.

I can read, and you've failed to give a detailed and logical explanation for just about everything you've claimed. But I don't blame you; it's hard to give a logical explanation for bullshit such as "scum will leave a town tracker alive longer than necessary".

[MagnaofIllusion]

Right. We already agreed on JK actions regarding Seacore.

Um, whut?

1. Who agreed on what again? I said that the N1 JK action was the only action I COULD see as directable, based on my Seacore read.
2. It’s wrong because the Kill delayer (you know, the other role you mentioned) isn’t obv.

I see this as I see night kills: might be useful in special, limited situations; generally an useless pool of WIFOM.

Definitely less useful than the benefits gained from directing.

Since you’ve never listed the benefits of directing that made any sense I’m just going to assume you are going to stick with your position regardless. Nice attempt to spin what I said into WIFOM. Ok not really but I thought your ego could use a boost.

A double kill is well worth the scrutiny which can be defended against by "oh he was SO town-looking to me!".

Do you not think things through? Do I have to explicitly state why this isn’t logical at all?

Inventor gives out Double Action item and scum gets double-kill.

This places the Inventor and the claimed Receiver in a 1 v 1. One of them MUST be scum. No other option.

If it isn’t LYLO you lynch the Inventor. If they flip Town they had no reason to lie about their target and said player is confirmed scum to be lynched the next day (unless the opposing scum faction uses a NK on them, which would be dependant on the gamestate).

If the Inventor flips scum the target isn’t clear but shouldn’t likely be immediately lynched unless the double kill is confirmed Serial Killer (and since don’t have any kill information yet it is impossible to tell if they are distinguished). It’s possible the scum Inventor would try to gambit claim their partner and possible they would try to hang Town. Other relational and gameplay tells come into play.

Yup … you clearly are looking for what ‘looks good' on the surface but doesn’t pass the test of actual play.

Scummy

I can read, and you've failed to give a detailed and logical explanation for just about everything you've claimed. But I don't blame you; it's hard to give a logical explanation for bullshit such as "scum will leave a town tracker alive longer than necessary".

You keep repeating this crap. Why?

If you are Town you are dead at best by the end of Day 2 unless Town JK decides to neutrialize your powers. That gives you 1 possible action.

Under your theory scum would specifically chose to go 1 v 1 with the Town tracker which could result in a scum lynch and 1 possible action.

Thus you are arguing scum would be more willing to risk two of their lives rather than 1. Especially when the first would be a 1 v 1 under your theory.

DOES NOT COMPUTE

.

[IceGuy]

1. Who agreed on what again? I said that the N1 JK action was the only action I COULD see as directable, based on my Seacore read.

iaau, kdowns, Seacore himself, you. No opposition.

2. It’s wrong because the Kill delayer (you know, the other role you mentioned) isn’t obv.

The kill delayer will be going to me N1, and to Seacore N2 if the JK is dead.

Since you’ve never listed the benefits of directing that made any sense I’m just going to assume you are going to stick with your position regardless.

I've already listed them several times. Just because you choose to ignore things that don't fit in your "argumentation" doesn't mean that they aren't there.

Do I have to explicitly state why this isn’t logical at all?

So, scum trades in the worst case two and in the best case three town deaths for one scum death.

Sounds good. For scum.

No wonder you're endorsing this.

You keep repeating this crap. Why?

Because it's true.

If you are Town you are dead at best by the end of Day 2 unless Town JK decides to neutrialize your powers. That gives you 1 possible action.

Yeah, and scum is trying to take this one action away from me, by either getting me lynched or vengekilled. Is that so hard to understand?

Under your theory scum would specifically chose to go 1 v 1 with the Town tracker which could result in a scum lynch and 1 possible action.

Thus you are arguing scum would be more willing to risk two of their lives rather than 1. Especially when the first would be a 1 v 1 under your theory.

DOES NOT COMPUTE

.

Even if you somehow manage to get the tracker lynched, this doesn't mean an autolynch for you. You can still try to defend yourself by the usual "but he looked oh so scummy" defense, which will be followed by all the people on the wagon who don't like to concede they fell for a scum play. And even if you are lynched yourself, you get to kill another town player. So, no.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So, scum trades in the worst case two and in the best case three town deaths for one scum death.

Sounds good. For scum.

No wonder you're endorsing this.

Why don’t you explain where this comes from because you basically seem to be pulling numbers out of the air to bolster your non-existent position and throwing on a heaping pile of rhetoric for good measure.

You know … show your work.

Yeah, and scum is trying to take this one action away from me, by either getting me lynched or vengekilled. Is that so hard to understand?

Lulz. The odds your track actually yields results that confirm scum (assuming for the sake of this argument you are Town which I don’t buy) is pretty low. But sure, ignore the facts that pushing on hypo-Town you as scum makes no logical sense.

Even if you somehow manage to get the tracker lynched, this doesn't mean an autolynch for you.

Yes, when you lynch scum people tend to like that …

[IceGuy]

Why don’t you explain where this comes from because you basically seem to be pulling numbers out of the air to bolster your non-existent position and throwing on a heaping pile of rhetoric for good measure.

You know … show your work.

I actually used your work. That's just the short version.

Inventor gives out Double Action item and scum gets double-kill.

This places the Inventor and the claimed Receiver in a 1 v 1. One of them MUST be scum. No other option.

If it isn’t LYLO you lynch the Inventor. If they flip Town they had no reason to lie about their target and said player is confirmed scum to be lynched the next day (unless the opposing scum faction uses a NK on them, which would be dependant on the gamestate).

If the Inventor flips scum the target isn’t clear but shouldn’t likely be immediately lynched unless the double kill is confirmed Serial Killer (and since don’t have any kill information yet it is impossible to tell if they are distinguished). It’s possible the scum Inventor would try to gambit claim their partner and possible they would try to hang Town. Other relational and gameplay tells come into play.

Lulz. The odds your track actually yields results that confirm scum (assuming for the sake of this argument you are Town which I don’t buy) is pretty low. But sure, ignore the facts that pushing on hypo-Town you as scum makes no logical sense.

So what town role should scum push on?

Yes, when you lynch scum people tend to like that …

At least I'll die well-liked when I'm NK'd N2.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I actually used your work. That's just the short version.

Aha … so you think scum getting a 2 for 1 is a good deal for scum. When it’s possible that 1 of said persons could be the Serial Killer.

This is a 8-3-1 setup. For purposes of math the Mafia are outnumbered 9-3 (or a 3 to 1 ratio). Specifically going out of their way to trade 2-1 (in the case of scum Inventor) doesn’t put them in a better position … it weakens them.

For example … let’s include a Day 1 Town lynch and no cross-kill in our calculations here and all kills are successful.

Game starts at 8-3-1.

After night assuming they went with that gambit they are in a 4-3-1 scenario with the scum Inventor lynched Day 2.

Thus going into Night we are in 4-2-1. Scum have barely improved their position (outnumbered 5 to 2 is just below 3-1) and taken themselves one step closer to extinction.

This is a worst case scenario also – there are no cross-kills that make the numbers even worse on that Scum Inventor gambit.

Which is why, of course, the whole "Scum Inventor could pull this off" appeal to fear you have been floating makes no sense.

At least I'll die well-liked when I'm NK'd N2.

Um, whut? If your role is so Town powerful you aren’t getting to N2, remember. The Kill delayer only works to the end of Day 2.

Worried about the Serial Killer when you don’t die by N2?

[ConSpiracy]

No, me trying to make the MoI wagon bigger is noted. You all cling far too much to PR's being very useful. Some may help to an extend, but the day is still more important.

We don't need to lose the informative role today. If the player is town it helps the town.
If most find MOI scummy he will be lynched without him.
You think he is IceGuy is scummy?

And one game is a total meta read since when? You know better farside, you know better.

Can't use ongoing games unless your claiming scum that game.
And you have told me on multiple occasions you always find me scummy. So......


Quilford: I asked you a question too here.
post 196

No, I don't think IceGuy is scummy. Yet, I wonder if MoI will be lynched when he deliberately stays of the wagon. Something we can do is wait for a L-2 (not L-1 for quickhammering) and see if two other people want to vote him. Then we will force a third player to vote him, too, and voila, IceGuy is off the wagon.
- And that was exactly the reason I am biased about you at the moment. You are always scum in my eyes and this game I want to keep it down because of me possibly being wrong again.

1. The ‘plan’ as I see it floated is that Quilford ‘has’ to JK Seacore to preserve his Day 3 innocent possibility (which isn’t overwhelmingly useful IMO but that’s another argument).
2. Cons is suggesting lynching Quilford (the JK) on crappy reasons.
3. The only reason lynching Quilford Day 1 makes sense is if he thinks Seacore is also scum. Because otherwise even if Quilford is scum Seacore not living to Day 2 means he is confirmed scum under the “plan” and will be lynched on sight Day 2.
----
My vote happily rests on you beceause Tracker is a powerful Town role … but you are scum so lynching you is Pro-Town.

Lol contradiction. I am not allowed to think someone is scum when his PR is useful, but MoI himself is.
Let's lynch this guy.

Also, what is the use of claiming who is in my neighbourhood? Once said player is in my neighbourhood, he knows I am confirmed. If I am roleblocked, I will put myself a 1v1 with Quilford and if I haven't put anyone in my neighbourhood it is noticed very fast. Meh, this way my being neighbourizer is very boring and barely useful at all.

[Seacore]

Prior to the back and forth I was considering Ice Guy as the third scum with MoI and ConS. I'm still not convinced he isn't, but if he is, seriously good work there from MoI and Iceguy, for that argument to be fake would require a decent amount of dedication.

That being said, I'd still rather a ConS lynch today. But will support an MoI lynch. I really don't think my ability is that powerful that I have to stay off the wagon.

Also, for the record I do not support being JK'd N1 and N2.
I support "probably" being JK'd N1 and N2. I'd like there to be a little randomness in it. This way, scum don't know for sure that the JK is busy, and also might try to risk it and kill me. I understand that runs the risk of a scum JK 'randomly' not protecting me and then me dying. But so be it, my role is not that strong.

[farside22]

So you are saying they’d avoid voting for me because it could get them killed. Just like Iceguy is doing. Noted.

Iceguy stated why he wasn't on the wagon. Quilford hasn't said anything about you.

My wagon consists of

Mb53 – lurker RVS vote
Conspiracy
Farside
Iam

Who do you believe is scum on your wagon if you are town?


Ugh all the back and forth is killing me. I would really like MOI and Iceguy to make a ONE post with the reason's they find each other scummy.

@CS: While I disagree with your reasoning on why IceGuy needs to be on there (I believe MOI is scum and would take out the most beneficial role to the town and I believe IceGuy to be town). There is a double voter ability and a few other players that haven't said much.
As for your issues with me. I'll just say fair enough for now, but IGMEOU.

Quilford is starting to bother me a bit, but I need to figure out what it is. It's just gut right now and all the back and forth with MOI/Iceguy is distracting.

[hiplop]

hey moi explain my scum meta right now. Apparently Im playing exactly like it; even though I've never played with MoI as scum; and hes never had any reason to look at my meta. If anythnig, this is my town meta.

Come the fuck at me

[Quilford]

Go and compare my bluntness here with bluntness in games in which I am scum, hiplop.