Brightest Day Mafia, Part 1 - GAME OVER

[Blackberry]

That's like saying 'I have a cop and it's much more powerful because of Double Day. This way if I find two mafia, I can out them both and get them both lynched before we go to night and I die...' ... Makes no sense XD.

[vezokpiraka]

No No.

Look, I'm a delayer. Let's say I delay a scum. Instead of getting the kill after lynch they get it after the second lynch. It's an advantage.

[Blackberry]

I will make both Mafia and Town a deal.

If you can find me a job, I will help your side win.

(i.e., Mafia, if you find me a job, I'll vote however yall want, it'll be 3 v 3, i.e., you'll automatically win ^_^).

Ready... go!

[ToastyToast]

Your job is..find the damn vanillizer!

[Kast]

@BB-
Did you even read what I posted?

You're taking one case (single culted-townie with single non-culted-townie) and trying to apply that to a completely different case (single culted-mafia with a night kill and a single non-culted-townie). We can ask that one too.

@Mod-

Three more clarifications please.

-If the game ends with a single culted mafia member and a single non-culted mafia member (recruiter already dead), does the Mafia and Cult have a Joint Win?

(Can't lynch each other and can't kill each other)

I will not confirm this either way. It would depend on what culted and non-culted mafia is able to do, which I will not reveal to you.

-If it's an end-game with a single non-culted mafia goon and a single culted mafia goon (hence both can not to anything), would the mafia and cult have a Joint Win?
-If there was a single culted mafia goon (in control of the mafia night kill, but no other powers) and a single non-culted vanilla townie, would it be a Joint Win?

-Do actions in this game follow the Golden Rule of NAR or does it JUST follow the order?

I think one would say that it follows the Golden Rule AND the order.

--For example,

BLOCKING

happens

BEFORE

REDIRECTING

. However, if PLAYERA

ROLEBLOCKS

PLAYERB and PLAYERC

REDIRECTS

PLAYERA to PLAYERD, then does PLAYERB get

ROLEBLOCKED

?

In this situation, PlayerB would get roleblocked, and PlayerD would not.

O_o...what you're saying here does NOT follow the Golden Rule, AND it's

different

from what you said in PM. According to regular NAR and the Golden Rule, PlayerB would not be roleblocked because the roleblock would be redirected to PlayerD.

As a more concrete example, assume we had these night actions:
-LLD

REDIRECTS

Andrius to FrozenMirror.
-Andrius

ROLEBLOCKS

Muffin.
-FrozenMirror

INVESTIGATES

Magister Ludi
-Nobody else takes any actions.

Would the

ROLEBLOCK

affect Muffin or FrozenMirror?
-The Golden Rule and regular NAR would result in FrozenMirror getting blocked.
-Your answer right now that Muffin is blocked means we ignore the Golden Rule and use the order exclusively.

To be clear, you are saying a

REDIRECT

ability does not affect any of the abilities higher than it (

COPY

,

HIDE

,

BUS

, or

BLOCK

). And similarly, a BLOCK couldn't affect a COPY, HIDE, or BUS. And similarly a BUS couldn't affect a COPY or HIDE.

[Kast]

Instead of getting the kill after lynch they get it after the second lynch.

That still doesn't make sense. If your ability says it delays an action for 2 lynches, then having it be double day makes your ability worse, not better.

Previously you claimed your ability delays until the following night. How does that have anything to do with the first or second lynch of the day?

[Blackberry]

Right now Hiplop is the vanillializer.

The only way Hiplop isn't Vanillializer is if Toasty is lying

or

Vezok is lynching, which would involve a roleblock on OS night 1 from Andrius which would mean Vezok/Tans are lying together, which I doubt.

I.e., Hiplop is Vanillializer.

UNLESS

There is a redirector and Night 2 Vezok was redirected to someone else. Or Vezok was redirected last night (doubt it, it'd be on me instead by now).

[Blackberry]

How are we supposed to win this if the only one posting is the crazy ADHD guy (me)?

Unvote, Vote: Hiplop

Vezok, Toasty, get on this shit.

[Blackberry]

Hiplop, you're L-2 in LyLo.

Make a statement, or die.

[Blackberry]

(That was in reference to the fact that you were online and viewing the Theme Park thread)

[The Book of Oa]

@Mod-

-If it's an end-game with a single non-culted mafia goon and a single culted mafia goon (hence both can not to anything), would the mafia and cult have a Joint Win?

Again, I have to say, I can't answer this without revealing information that you are not supposed to know for sure. I'm not going to reveal how mafia and cult interact.

-If there was a single culted mafia goon (in control of the mafia night kill, but no other powers) and a single non-culted vanilla townie, would it be a Joint Win?

Assuming that a culted mafia goon WOULD have a night kill, then NO. The culted mafia goon would win for the cult.

O_o...what you're saying here does NOT follow the Golden Rule, AND it's

different

from what you said in PM. According to regular NAR and the Golden Rule, PlayerB would not be roleblocked because the roleblock would be redirected to PlayerD.

I don't know what you're talking about here. Block is resolved before redirect in the NAR, and therefore roleblocking cannot be redirected.

As a more concrete example, assume we had these night actions:
-LLD

REDIRECTS

Andrius to FrozenMirror.
-Andrius

ROLEBLOCKS

Muffin.
-FrozenMirror

INVESTIGATES

Magister Ludi
-Nobody else takes any actions.

Would the

ROLEBLOCK

affect Muffin or FrozenMirror?
-The Golden Rule and regular NAR would result in FrozenMirror getting blocked.
-Your answer right now that Muffin is blocked means we ignore the Golden Rule and use the order exclusively.

To be clear, you are saying a

REDIRECT

ability does not affect any of the abilities higher than it (

COPY

,

HIDE

,

BUS

, or

BLOCK

). And similarly, a BLOCK couldn't affect a COPY, HIDE, or BUS. And similarly a BUS couldn't affect a COPY or HIDE.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Sorry if I said anything different at any time.

[The Book of Oa]

Actually, I think I understand where the confusion comes from. We're not using the "Golden Rule", from what I can tell. We are simply following the order of actions, and no action can modify an action that is before it in the order. Personally, I think that's the best way to do it, because it makes sure that we get the same result every time rather than having to work out complicated inter-relations of powers.

[ToastyToast]

I'm ready to thrown down a vote, but yeh waitin on hiplop first I suppose

[Blackberry]

Ready to throw down a vote where? O_o

[ToastyToast]

on Hiplop. I think its hiplop and kast.

[Blackberry]

*chin scratch*

[ToastyToast]

?Don't see why you would think otherwise.

[Blackberry]

I'm just curious you agreed with me XD.

[Kast]

If we lose this one it's all on you two.

Vezok's been playing scummy and his claim is complete nonsense. The flipped mafia also all strongly defended Vezok (and two of them defended Andy as well and didn't bus each other).

Hiplop's behavior just doesn't fit with mafia. If he was mafia, he could have easily saved Andy by joining the Nikanor lynch instead of the Ludi lynch. He could have easily won today by hammering Vezok first then letting KillJoy get lynched as the most probable remaining Vanillizer.

[Kast]

@BB-

@Mod-
-If it's an end-game with a single non-culted mafia goon and a single culted mafia goon (hence both can not to anything), would the mafia and cult have a Joint Win?
Again, I have to say, I can't answer this without revealing information that you are not supposed to know for sure. I'm not going to reveal how mafia and cult interact.
-If there was a single culted mafia goon (in control of the mafia night kill, but no other powers) and a single non-culted vanilla townie, would it be a Joint Win?
Assuming that a culted mafia goon WOULD have a night kill, then NO. The culted mafia goon would win for the cult.

It's not solid proof (since mods won't give solid proof), but it's pretty likely we'll lose if endgame is culted mafia with one townie. Mod doesn't want to say for sure how that interacts, but that's exactly how it worked in Blackest Night Mafia (and hell if Tans wasn't culted mafia, then mod probably wouldn't care and would share how that interacts). It's not like there's any reason to avoid talking about it, unless that's actually the situation we're in.

When Hiplop flips town, we're going to go into night; Vezok will probably vanilla BB (it won't matter anyway). Tans will kill me or Toast. Tomorrow Tans could even work with town and lynch Vezok, but we still lose since he would nightkill and endgame the remaining townies.

[Kast]

This is like a repeat of Subliminal and Ludi, except this time we're not going to get a second chance to do it right. Let's do the right thing and lynch the scummy player.

VOTE: Vezok

Oh another point, the fact mods are completely unwilling to answer something about any situations that we are pretty likely to be in, but perfectly willing to answer clarifications on how a non-roleblocking vanillization ability would work, pretty clearly indicates that the vanillization is a roleblocking ability (meaning it's the same time as jailkeeping).

Everything points to the vanillization roleblocking Toast and thus a successful recruit last night. A Tans recruit is the only thing that fits with KJ's behavior.

[tanstalas]

Keep spewing nonsense Kast.

[ToastyToast]

If we are looking for a Godfather, it has to be one of Kast/Vezok

If we are looking for a vanillizer, its probably one of Tans/Hiplop.

What I think gives Hiplop the edge as scum is the fact that 1) He should have checked Tans, 2) His odd restrictions for his White Lantern Power

There's actually quite a lot of things interesting with the hiplop slot.
For one, he did very little scum-hunting, but a shit-ton of cult hunting.
When I jailkept Ludi (although if we are to believe Oversoul, I went nowhere), he commented that the single kill suggests Ludi could be mafia. Unfortunately, I forget as I'm writing this why I thought that was interesting...

ANYWAYS, once cult is out of the way, he simply goes "mafia is in kast/tans/vezok"...which is basically his only option and doesn't make sense given the fact that he copped me. I also think scum with a fake cop would be more likely to claim an innocent than a guilty, because it gives no information. Claiming a guilty on someone would put us in a much different situation b/w himself and the target. so, again...why choose me?

Kast, don't play the "if we lose its your fault" card. Thats just an emotional appeal and a bitch move. Me and BB are just as responsible as anyone else. And, if you and hiplop are town, then you cannot say you have done all you can to be obvtown.

Also, now you are becoming the key speculator. Seriously, stop saying what will happen if we lynch said person and actually prove why vezok is scummier than thou and hiplop. You and hiplop as buddies makes more sense than vezok and tans, in my opinion.

Everything points to the vanillization roleblocking Toast and thus a successful recruit last night. A Tans recruit is the only thing that fits with KJ's behavior.

If this is the case, then I'm goin to rage like crazy in post-game. I mean, scum team can rage in post game about it not being balance for them, but a vanillizer who overcomes all night actions is fukin crazy overpowered.

There was also nothing to suggest that cult is left anymore, when it was HIGHLY suggested when we lynched Ludi and OS.

Tans/vezok/hiplop are all just lurkin' along in the thread, but Kast is being the outspoken one.

Generally, I see scum-teams comprised of
1 leader who is people have a high opinion of(BB or Kast), a lurker who doesn't give many reads (one of hiplop, vezok, tans), a sheep (Ghostwriter, apok) and a scapegoat (Andrius, Toog)

You can bitch about how this is inaccurate, but its worked for me before. It also means that one of Kast or BB is the scum-leader. Guess whose a cop and guess who isn't a cop? Guess whose obvtown and guess who isnt?

See, I can match Kast with any of the other 3. He defends hiplop the most. He buddied me like crazy, he was highly OMGLYNCHANDRIUS. Most of the people he thought were "mafia" flipped cult (i.e. he WAS hunting, just not for mafia) . His vote on apok just came out of nowhere, and he gave a little excuse to hop on the wagon.

Town delayer is plausible; though if we did start with a 2 man cult, then there is a possibility Andy/TT are the town and mafia blockers with Vezok as the Cult Blocker.

Andy flipped scum-blocker. We know cult had multiple starting members, but they dead. soo....now you think vezok is scum, when before you felt his role was highly plausible.

Tans is probably town; but Tans-town pretty much means Nik mafia and Muffin doesn't think that's possible.

Again, changed your mind now.

Vezok + Anyone
Toast + CJ
Toast + Tans

Huh? again. So you ended up with Vezok + Tans? But why tans and not hiplop? You haven't explained this well at all

Anyways, thats all that's on my mind atm. Wow, this "in the moment" posting style surprises me sometimes.
Also, I think Kast is a better first lynch than hiplop, but I do think they are scum together.

[ToastyToast]

Ah, and vezok's ISO/play...is just super normal. for him.
Tans is playing nothing like he did as an SK in the last game.

[Blackberry]

I don't think Vezok is godfather. I think Godfather was someone who I hadn't investigated yet, because I was not blocked nor killed, suggesting Mafia was completely fine with me investigating, suggesting I hadn't hit the Godfather yet because they wanted me to reveal an innocent on them (i.e., Kast).

...

I concur with Toasty's theory that mafia would have at least ONE person being vocal/active/talkative.

...

Tans is playing nothing like he did when he was town with me in a previous game. He was very vocal and threw out a lot of theories kinda like me.