The Children of Húrin Mafia (GREAT REVIVAL)

[Furcolow]

I'm not a troll....



I'm a dwarf.

[Mastermind of Sin]

No one was talking to you...

[Gut]

It is always optimal play to vig a jester rather than lynching them. Why the hell would you give someone the satisfaction of winning when they aren't town-aligned? That's retarded.

I don't care even the teensiest bit whether a jester wins or not - my goal is to win the game, not have others lose. (I also can't imagine winning as a jester is particularly satisfying.)

I'm certainly not going to let silly jester speculation distract me from playing the game.

Anyway, people should sheep Faraday's reads and vote for VitaminR!

[ooba]

I’ve also seen other games recently where you were confident of your reads – Atomic and BTTF. Not exactly something that makes me confident when I see you state that.

I hope this is a "I can't trust your reads when you say you're confident because you can be scum" statement. But generally I'm much emphatic and over-confident as town. (as evidenced by Battle for Olympus)

---

Four targets, three remain alive. I win if I still live when all my targets are dead. My kill flavor is not specified.

So people slayed by Anglachel\Gurthang in the story (My flavor comes from the wiki entries)
- Beleg who is already dead
- Brandir
- Glaurung
- Morgoth
Could be a nifty fakeclaim but my take away from this is "Brandir is not a fakeclaim and hence town."

---

@empking
we agree to disagree on S&M then

---

@elli

Hell no
you were in atomic
you don't actually believe this

Amrun was scum there and posted? The not-posting tell should be considered w.r.t to the person.

I have a reverse meta. I posted this in the recent MSV

a) Me being late to the game:

It was obviously laziness to read a bunch of pages. I know I'm going to get called out on posting in other threads and ignoring this for a couple of days - and me-scum would have never let it get to the level where I would be mass voted for it. As simple as that. You can check my other games - apart from the invitational where I had time issues - when I'm scum I both
- Post just enough to make sure I don't get called out on it
- Definitely won't post a lot in other games while I lurk in my scum game. The logical thing to do in situations where you don't want to post in a scum-game is not post in the site at all.

---

@Gut

Kanye, do you have e-mail notification turned on?

Game relevant?

Anyway, people should sheep Faraday's reads and vote for VitaminR!

Strange that you leave out kanye who was just below VitR in that list.

---

On the Seraph QT thing
- MoI is probably not lying about having QT access and the posts there. It is objectively verifiable and not worth lying about.
- To consider MoI "confirmed" town based on this info (I'm looking at WoW) is wrong because this is all he's given us
-- There might be a ninja\strongman in setup
-- FaraMina is the more pro town seraph
-- Might be one more person listening in on the QT
None of this helps with lynching scum here. Call him confirmed if he bags us one-two scum with that info. (And posting Faraday's reads on kanye is not what I mean by bagging scum with info from the QT. Something more like "FaraMin (or AGMThor) investigated VitR to be scum")

I really would like MoS to stop talking about that though.

---

Why is this kanye lynch taking so much time? First D1 sudden change - now this delay. I like how he plays it as "both me and Feysal are scum or both are not" though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Cuz kanye is stupid.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: Ooba's last post gave me good vibes, minus the bit about Kanye needing to be lynched. I'm glad I'm not the only sane person in this game.

[Gut]

Game relevant?

Of course?

[Herodotus]

I'm limited access until Tuesday. But I do plan to continue reading the thread, and if anyone has questions, I can answer them.

I don't have a read on ooba yet.
I'd be willing to vote kanye if deadline was close, but see no need right now.

[Furcolow]

vote: MoS

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI: I'm going to elaborate on my anti-lurkerlynch stance here and tie it in with a kanye lynch. Now I am vehemenently opposed to a lurkerlynch solely on the grounds that the lynchee is lurking, which was pretty much the entire basis of the Peregrine mislynch and the attempt to wagon Sun and Moon. I am NOT opposed to a lurkerlynch on a lurker who also happens to be scummy.

Someone who has strongly avoided the thread (as Sun and Moon have) while both hydra halves are being active elsewhere (which both CSL and Amrum are) is clearly more than a vote for a lurker just because they are lurking. Sorry but you stance doesn’t hold water.

That said Amrun doesn’t have a propensity for lurking as scum so at this stage I’m not pushing the issue. Sun and Moon is a great Feysal kill.

@Wraith

– WHO IS SCUM ON THOSE WAGONS? This is at least the second time I’ve asked. I want answers – at least two players you think are scum (besides Kayne) for pushing those lynches.

--

Are you seriously THAT dense/unmotivated?

Mafia is a game about information exchange to find scum. If you want to play “Captain Annoying” by not directly answering questions that’s not my issue. I’m not going back to look at the fricking sign-up thread once the game has started. True fact. It's not the game thread ... this is.

You could have just said “Nope, no idea” in the first place. But you chose to take the route least helpful to Town. If you are Town you don’t understand to be useful.

Again, I’ll just assume you are scum since I’d have figured by now you might have figured that out (since you joined in 2004).

Fact #1 - THIS IS A BASTARD GAME.
Fact #2 - It is always optimal play to vig a jester rather than lynching them. Why the hell would you give someone the satisfaction of winning when they aren't town-aligned? That's retarded.

Your first fact is irrelevant. This is a LARGE THEME GAME. I’m going to assume that Plum is a competent mod (history shows she is) and wouldn’t flush away the hard work she put into the game with an end-gaming Jester.

The second fact is again irrelevant. Your Jester speculation is pointless tail-chasing. If you think someone is scummy you lynch them. Worrying more about depriving someone of some secondary pride points as opposed to actively worrying about lynching scum is at best foolish and probably scummy.

And it is funny that you are pushing the “Must Vig Jester” angle so hard while voting for Feysal who appears to be the closest thing in the game to a Vig. I find those competing stances to be scummy.

Please choose your personal definition of scumhunting:

Nice way to attempt to limit the definitions to your choosing.

You are doing nothing in thread that reflects that you are actively looking for scum. Your “I don’t know who is scum” statement confirms this in my mind. Thus you are playing much more towards a scum wincon than a Town wincon.

--

- To consider MoI "confirmed" town based on this info (I'm looking at WoW) is wrong because this is all he's given us

Aside from the fact that you ignored the fact I delivered Feysal from the QT (as non-Town) this is rather pointless.

My Towniness should be judged completely apart for the Seraphim QT. It should be judged based on the rest of my play.

This whole portion of your post reads much like weak undermining I saw from MoS.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Are you seriously THAT dense/unmotivated?

Mafia is a game about information exchange to find scum. If you want to play “Captain Annoying” by not directly answering questions that’s not my issue. I’m not going back to look at the fricking sign-up thread once the game has started. True fact. It's not the game thread ... this is.

You could have just said “Nope, no idea” in the first place. But you chose to take the route least helpful to Town. If you are Town you don’t understand to be useful.

Again, I’ll just assume you are scum since I’d have figured by now you might have figured that out (since you joined in 2004).

I don't negotiate with

terrorists

idiots.

Fact #1 - THIS IS A BASTARD GAME.
Fact #2 - It is always optimal play to vig a jester rather than lynching them. Why the hell would you give someone the satisfaction of winning when they aren't town-aligned? That's retarded.

Your first fact is irrelevant. This is a LARGE THEME GAME. I’m going to assume that Plum is a competent mod (history shows she is) and wouldn’t flush away the hard work she put into the game with an end-gaming Jester.

The second fact is again irrelevant. Your Jester speculation is pointless tail-chasing. If you think someone is scummy you lynch them. Worrying more about depriving someone of some secondary pride points as opposed to actively worrying about lynching scum is at best foolish and probably scummy.

And it is funny that you are pushing the “Must Vig Jester” angle so hard while voting for Feysal who appears to be the closest thing in the game to a Vig. I find those competing stances to be scummy.

Where did I say that a Jester would end the game? Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm actively worrying about lynching scum, which is why I chose NOT to lynch Gandalf, who was more likely jester than scum.

Feysal clearly doesn't have the interests of the town at heart, since he did NOT kill Gandalf last night and instead (supposedly) tried to kill Furcolow just because Furc asked him to. He's scum, and there's no way I trust him to kill who he's supposed to.

Please choose your personal definition of scumhunting:

Nice way to attempt to limit the definitions to your choosing.

You are doing nothing in thread that reflects that you are actively looking for scum. Your “I don’t know who is scum” statement confirms this in my mind. Thus you are playing much more towards a scum wincon than a Town wincon.

You're more than welcome to define scumhunting in your own words. I just assumed that there would be no question as to which of those options was the correct answer. Nice deflection, though.

Now

who's being difficult?

--

- To consider MoI "confirmed" town based on this info (I'm looking at WoW) is wrong because this is all he's given us

Aside from the fact that you ignored the fact I delivered Feysal from the QT (as non-Town) this is rather pointless.

My Towniness should be judged completely apart for the Seraphim QT. It should be judged based on the rest of my play.

This whole portion of your post reads much like weak undermining I saw from MoS.

LoL, I love how MoI is just OMGUSing everyone who questions him now. Kid needs to get a grip and realize that we're all not sheep here.

In other news, this Kanye wagon has gone on long enough. This wagon can't be entirely scum-driven, which is a sad realization for those who are town, but let's look at a few exceptionally suspect players.

Wraith's case on Kanye is based on weak reasoning from the beginning of the game, and he hasn't bothered to expand on his suspicion of Kanye since, instead just saying he's still the "strongest scumread" and continually pushing his lynch.

Additionally, Ellibereth's reasoning for being on the Kanye wagon was "kanye was BIG SUSPECT or something". Didn't even bother to provide his own reasoning or agree with anything put forward by someone else, only joined the wagon because other people said Kanye was scummy.

Mockingjaye has almost singularly been focused on Kanye for the entire game. Her posts have been very verbose, but if you can stop your eyes from glazing over and actually look at the details, it's nearly all about Kanye. That's a hell of a lot of posting just about one player being scum. It's either tunnel vision or an attempt to look like she's contributing a lot without actually commenting on anything else that's going on in the game. (She made a brief comment on Gandalf/Andrius, hasn't said anything about MoI, and made a short argument in favor of keeping Feysal alive that actually made no sense because she's trusting a third party player to correctly report their wincon rather than just make one up that will please the town!)

In order of scumminess, I'm thinking Ellibereth > Wraith > Mockingjaye, although it's close enough that I could see switching the first two.

With the Feysal wagon sadly stalled in favor of lynching Kanye, let's try a new tact for now.

Unvote, Vote: Ellibereth

[Wraith]

@MoI: Right now my top three suspects are Kanye, VitR, and SpyreX, in that order.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Maybe it's been a while since I've played with VitR (have we ever actually been in a game together?), but I'm not getting a scum feel from him. Not sure where those reads are coming from.
'
Also, just remembered that Feysal replaced Katsuki, and a ton of people were claiming that slot was town because Katsuki replaced out in "frustration". Y'all can suck on that one, bitches.

[Wraith]

I think it's pretty well established that Feysal is not scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Are you on crack? Feysal has already claimed HIMSELF that he's not town...and I don't think this is another GreyICE ala UPick.

[ooba]

My Towniness should be judged completely apart for the Seraphim QT. It should be judged based on the rest of my play.

Funny how this never came out when WoW was calling you "confirmed" town just for the Seraph QT.

It's not weak undermining - I'm openly telling another person that his basis for "confirm"ing you is not right. And Feysal is NOT mafia.

@MoS: Why not MoI from the kanye wagon?

[Mastermind of Sin]

And Feysal is NOT mafia.

I don't think anyone's claiming this, are they?

@MoS: Why not MoI from the kanye wagon?

I didn't realize he was actually on the wagon, I was looking at the last VC. Even so, I'm still not convinced that MoI isn't just retarded. Just because I don't trust his Seraph thing 100% does NOT mean that I think he's definitely lying. I'm just making it clear that I'm taking everything with a grain of salt. It *is* interesting that MoI is wigging out so much over a little healthy distrust, but I haven't seen enough scumtells to put MoI anywhere near the top of my list, though.

[ooba]

I don't think anyone's claiming this, are they?

It was in response to MoI's "I caught Feysal for you guys".

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wait, MoI thinks he's the first one to realize Feysal/Katsuki was anti-town? LMAO...someone needs to check the votecounts from Day 1.

[Wraith]

Are you on crack? Feysal has already claimed HIMSELF that he's not town...and I don't think this is another GreyICE ala UPick.

What are YOU talking about? I didn't say Feysal was town, I just said he was not scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's the definition of not scum...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Funny how this never came out when WoW was calling you "confirmed" town just for the Seraph QT.

Please explain what you mean by funny.

--

Where did I say that a Jester would end the game? Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm actively worrying about lynching scum, which is why I chose NOT to lynch Gandalf, who was more likely jester than scum.

You never said anything of the sort. You apparently aren’t comprehending the point. A Jester ending the game is the ONLY reason to give the possibility of a Jester any thought what-so-ever. You find someone playing scummy … you lynch them.

Feysal clearly doesn't have the interests of the town at heart, since he did NOT kill Gandalf last night and instead (supposedly) tried to kill Furcolow just because Furc asked him to. He's scum, and there's no way I trust him to kill who he's supposed to.

Did Feysal call Gandalf scum? If not your desire to see Gandalf NKed doesn’t really factor into the scenario. I personally would have shot any number of players (I can think of at least 5 off-hand) before even considering Gandalf.

LoL, I love how MoI is just OMGUSing everyone who questions him now.

Kid needs to get a grip

and realize that we're all not sheep here.

Oh, I’m sorry … I didn’t know I wasn’t allowed to call your scummy play out because your scummy posts happened to be directed at me. Pointless reliance on outdated Wikitells noted.

And the bolded is LOL indeed. News flash Tex – I guarantee if one of us is a ‘kid’ it’s you.

But since you need apparently a lesson in why undermining is an effective and classic scum move I’ll explain it to you.

Town has not reason to attach players they don’t think are scummy in a manner. Or at least competent Town doesn’t anyway.

Scum, however, when faced with a difficult target (aka someone who generally isn’t considered scummy for their play) they have to go the undermining route. That’s the route where scum don’t call someone scummy and instead resort to rhetoric. Here are some of the examples of you doing exactly that …

I don't negotiate with terroristsidiots.

I'm still not convinced that MoI isn't just retarded.

It’s straight from the playbook of politician everywhere … when you can’t actually attack your opponents record then demonize them.

Yup, everyone who disagrees with MoS has to be mentally challenged.

Fail. But I appreciate that you’ve made it easier to pick you out from the rest of the non-scum hunters as scum. In fact have a vote … you earned it!

UNVOTE: Kayne
VOTE: MoS

Are you on crack? Feysal has already claimed HIMSELF that he's not town...and I don't think this is another GreyICE ala UPick.

So you think that Feysal is scum. Is Furcolow scum with him? If not why would Furc lie about being targetted?

And do you think Chrono was some sort of Vig / SK shot then? Do you think we are in Multi-scum?

I need to see how these stances make sense in conjunction with the game state as we know it currently.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Where did I say that a Jester would end the game? Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm actively worrying about lynching scum, which is why I chose NOT to lynch Gandalf, who was more likely jester than scum.

You never said anything of the sort. You apparently aren’t comprehending the point. A Jester ending the game is the ONLY reason to give the possibility of a Jester any thought what-so-ever. You find someone playing scummy … you lynch them.

I oppose all non-town win conditions by policy when I am town. It's as simple as that.

Feysal clearly doesn't have the interests of the town at heart, since he did NOT kill Gandalf last night and instead (supposedly) tried to kill Furcolow just because Furc asked him to. He's scum, and there's no way I trust him to kill who he's supposed to.

Did Feysal call Gandalf scum? If not your desire to see Gandalf NKed doesn’t really factor into the scenario. I personally would have shot any number of players (I can think of at least 5 off-hand) before even considering Gandalf.

And yet you're the one telling me that I should consider Feysal a vig to be used to kill Gandalf...you're contradicting yourself now.

LoL, I love how MoI is just OMGUSing everyone who questions him now.

Kid needs to get a grip

and realize that we're all not sheep here.

Oh, I’m sorry … I didn’t know I wasn’t allowed to call your scummy play out because your scummy posts happened to be directed at me. Pointless reliance on outdated Wikitells noted.

I was more referring to Ooba than myself, but your avoidance of this pattern is noted.

And the bolded is LOL indeed. News flash Tex – I guarantee if one of us is a ‘kid’ it’s you.

But since you need apparently a lesson in why undermining is an effective and classic scum move I’ll explain it to you.

Town has not reason to attach players they don’t think are scummy in a manner. Or at least competent Town doesn’t anyway.

Scum, however, when faced with a difficult target (aka someone who generally isn’t considered scummy for their play) they have to go the undermining route. That’s the route where scum don’t call someone scummy and instead resort to rhetoric. Here are some of the examples of you doing exactly that …

I don't negotiate with terroristsidiots.

I'm still not convinced that MoI isn't just retarded.

It’s straight from the playbook of politician everywhere … when you can’t actually attack your opponents record then demonize them.

Yup, everyone who disagrees with MoS has to be mentally challenged.

Fail. But I appreciate that you’ve made it easier to pick you out from the rest of the non-scum hunters as scum. In fact have a vote … you earned it!

UNVOTE: Kayne
VOTE: MoS

So basically you think I'm scum because you can't handle being insulted. Got it,

kid

.

Are you on crack? Feysal has already claimed HIMSELF that he's not town...and I don't think this is another GreyICE ala UPick.

So you think that Feysal is scum. Is Furcolow scum with him? If not why would Furc lie about being targetted?

And do you think Chrono was some sort of Vig / SK shot then? Do you think we are in Multi-scum?

I need to see how these stances make sense in conjunction with the game state as we know it currently.

I have no idea what the scum setup is. We could be dealing with multiple scumgroups, and/or we could have any number of SKs. I have no evidence to allow me to speculate on any of those questions. All I know is that Feysal is acting scummy and has actively claimed to be scum (with the supposed caveat that he can still win with the town, which is super lolz). I don't see how people can't understand this.

[MagnaofIllusion]

And yet you're the one telling me that I should consider Feysal a vig to be used to kill Gandalf...you're contradicting yourself now.

Absolute lie. Where have I EVER advocated keeping Feysal alive and directing his shots? Please find me where that happened. Because it didn’t. And you can't. More non-scum hunting and lying on your part. Nice.

I oppose all non-town win conditions by policy when I am town. It's as simple as that.

Good to know you’d rather stick to a pointless policy than think about the game in a manner that’s effective.

So basically you think I'm scum because you can't handle being insulted. Got it, kid.

Quite the scummy reaction. Try to minimize the reasons you are being voted.

I’m voting your because you are scum. Scum who isn’t scum-hunting, is actively lurking by floating pointless game-theory as ‘useful’ as opposed to the fluff it is, is showing Cognitive Dissonance, and using classic scum moves.

MORE MoS VOTES PLEASE! HE REALLY, REALLY NEEDS THEM.

[Mastermind of Sin]

And it is funny that you are pushing the “Must Vig Jester” angle so hard while voting for Feysal who appears to be the closest thing in the game to a Vig. I find those competing stances to be scummy.

Feysal clearly doesn't have the interests of the town at heart, since he did NOT kill Gandalf last night and instead (supposedly) tried to kill Furcolow just because Furc asked him to. He's scum, and there's no way I trust him to kill who he's supposed to.

Did Feysal call Gandalf scum? If not your desire to see Gandalf NKed doesn’t really factor into the scenario. I personally would have shot any number of players (I can think of at least 5 off-hand) before even considering Gandalf.

And yet you're the one telling me that I should consider Feysal a vig to be used to kill Gandalf...you're contradicting yourself now.

Absolute lie. Where have I EVER advocated keeping Feysal alive and directing his shots? Please find me where that happened. Because it didn’t. And you can't. More non-scum hunting and lying on your part. Nice.

Oh yes, now you're going to try to backtrack out of this one by saying

you

never advocated directing Feysal's shots yourself...and yet here you are, attacking me for not trusting Feysal to vig Gandalf and calling that a contradiction. I'll quote it again for you in case you're blind:

And it is funny that you are pushing the “Must Vig Jester” angle so hard while voting for Feysal who appears to be the closest thing in the game to a Vig. I find those competing stances to be scummy.

And it is funny that you are pushing the “Must Vig Jester” angle so hard while voting for Feysal who appears to be the closest thing in the game to a Vig. I find those competing stances to be scummy.

And it is funny that you are pushing the “Must Vig Jester” angle so hard while voting for Feysal who appears to be the closest thing in the game to a Vig. I find those competing stances to be scummy.

And it is funny that you are pushing the “Must Vig Jester” angle so hard while voting for Feysal who appears to be the closest thing in the game to a Vig. I find those competing stances to be scummy.

Busted.