Open 338 Jungle Republic StefanBversion - FIN

[Sir Bastion]

well i'm happy with my vote

[crypto]

Sir Bastion: Crypto, explain your votes.
Crypto: [No response.]
Sir Bastion: Instead of pressing for answers, I'm going to sit on my vote.

[Sir Bastion]

don't like being a broken record, if you're not going to answer why bother repeating myself? Your actions alone will attract a wagon on to you, I don't need to do anything for now, instead I can spend my time more constructively by examining posts by people who actually contribute

[Yosarian2]

so yos... you made a convincing argument that scum would sit back doing nothing. I haven't really seen that in TOF's play, other than her drawing your attention for not voting.

Eh. TOF dosn't really seem to be scumhunting in any real way. Do you disagree?

Earlier, you voted primate. You said he responded better under pressure. Primate posted once, then you said he was more likely town and unvoted. Since then, primate has gone back to lurking. Also, primate has not voted anyone. That post you said was more likely to come from town, didn't contain a vote. So calling Primate's post town seems to directly contradict your statements about how you think scum would be playing.

I've played a ton of games with Primate in the past. He's actually a very good player, but one problem with his play is that he has a habit of sitting back and not doing much when he's not pressured. This isn't a tell for him, meta-wise; he does it as town pretty consistently. So, you're right; Primate's not doing anything right now, and he should be. It's good that you bring attention to that. Sadly, in his specific case, I don't think that's a tell, even though it is for most people.

There are also other players who are currently not voting anyone and doing nothing.

Sure. There's also a lot of scum in this game. Fortunatly, I only have to find and lynch one scum a day.

If you have a suggestion for someone else who you think isn't scumhunting and who you think is a better lynch then she is, convince me.

-Your rhetoric-y post: you're already to the "covincing the rest of us" stage. Are you already that convinced TOF is scum? For example, why didn't you ask TOF for the reasons why she voted you, or to clear up the paragraph that didn't make a lot of sense. Those seem like things a townie would want to understand and ask as part of scumhunting.

There's three parts to scumhunting. Identifying scumtells and spotting people who are more likely to be scum is one. Communicating those scum-tells to the rest of the town to let the rest of the town know what you've seen, to increase the odds that the person you think is scummy gets lynched, is two. And, combining the two, when you increase the pressure on someone you think is likely to be scum, you make them much easier to read; it's much easier to tell if someone is town or scum when they're under extreme pressure. And also by explaining why you think someone is scum, you give them a chance to respond, to explain why their actions make sense as town. So it's not like there's one stage where you try to read someone and then a different stage where you try to lynch them; you do all of it together, all at the same time. That's what scumhunting is, really.

[crypto]

don't like being a broken record, if you're not going to answer why bother repeating myself? Your actions alone will attract a wagon on to you, I don't need to do anything for now, instead I can spend my time more constructively by examining posts by people who actually contribute

Do you think I am town or mafia?

[Sir Bastion]

I think odds on you are possibly Mafia, not werewolf. Mostly because you are acting with the safe knowledge that you know someone here will have your back. While that would be true with the wolves too there is only two of them and one does not want to have both players on the same side of a case. As Mafia you can have someone cover for you prodding and pushing everyone like how Yossarian defends Primate in the post above and still keep another player away from the drama.

[crypto]

The fuck?

[crypto]

This is why MS is ridiculous and painful.

[Sir Bastion]

struggling with the forum interface again??

[crypto]

Struggling with the overwhelming tendency of players on this site to latch onto ridiculous pretentious conspiracy theories.

[Sir Bastion]

wifom

I'd say it's common on day 1 for there to be more wifom then actual case. Though I'd admit Yossarian has somehow pulled a case out rather quickly. I'd like to hear friction's defence.

and you?

Are you voting friction to L-1 because you are convinced Yos is right?

[crypto]

There's no WIFOM here.

[Rhinox]

@yos:
you're correct TOF hasn't been great thus far, but she's new and seemed initially to be trying. She didn't respond to the pressure well.

primate meta - ok I guess. Though then why did you call his previous post town?

3 parts to scumhunting - well I've never heard it explained like that before. I tend to see that kind of thing as being more concerned with making a convincing argument even if its wrong.

[Primate]

Strongly agree with Yos about calling IIOA in the early days of a thread. You can act like more has happened than has actually has in order to spur the game on, and that's fine, but don't expect others to do so. And it's also important not to assume that because you think that some stuff that happened in the first bit of the game is important, others will as well. This is even more relevant in this game, where there were several questions laid down at the beginning that were mostly setup related, and it is entirely reasonable to answer..

TOF's wagon actually isn't a terrible as the standard D1 newbiewagon normally is.

Two things I think yos is wrong about, Firstly, I'm dubious about perma-voting being a good idea when we have so many scum. Unless you see it as means to an end regarding catching scum, we're going to end up with a fair bit of wagonning, and that makes me uncomfortable. Plus, In #109, the way I read what Yos has down as 1. and 2. is that TOF is using the reasoning in 1. as the justification for the vote, so he is accusing you of trying to perpetuate that voting just to vote is a good idea.

The things I think are scummy about TOF are, firstly, I really dislike it when people feel that they dismiss votes on them as commentless as he has done, as if that makes them less important. I'm not a fan of a player passively criticising the town for not providing a framework for him to defend against. Secondly, OMGUS vote.

I think scoobies point was fair but weak, calling it a case is a stretch, and I'm unsure why he thought it was worthy of comment like it was a big thing, especially considering TOF did respond. This also raises the question though, why didn't he respond to TOF's response to his case?

Crypto is town. Yos is giving me a town feeling, but my Yosreads are normally appalling, so take that with a grain of salt. Rhinox reads neutral. I don't think you're scum particularly I just find myself disagreeing with everything you say. Cobblerfone reads neutral. Don't like IAMA.

Also I didn't actually realise that the lurkery was this bad here, otherwise I would have posted, sorry.

[Sir Bastion]

should I be worried that you left me off your list?

[TheOtherFiction]

Yos2, I could argue that voting just to vote is pretty scummy as well.

Vote Yos2

I may think each are scummy, but it's not enough to warrant a vote. Mafia members could hide among them while slowly controlling the vote. The only one to be suspicious would be the person who hammers, sure, but that's just a silly to assume the hammerer is scum if they just bandwagon early all the time.

Not to mention the commentless votes on me recently.

Heh. Take a look at this post, everyone.

First, he says "I could argue that voting just to vote is scummy", right after I explained why pro-town people should vote, especially in this game. Notice that he doesn't

actually

argue that it's scummy, he just vaguely claims that he could.

Then he finally votes. But he doesn't vote for any of the people he's expressed suspicion on; instead, he votes for me. Why? He never really says. I can only assume that he doesn't like that I'm voting for him.

He then gives some vague excuses for not voting ("I think each are summy, but not enough to warrant a vote"; what? How is not voting better then voting for someone you think is scummy? The rest of that paragraph dosn't make a lot of sense either; how does him voting for someone he thinks is scummy make it EASIER for the scum to control the vote?)

He then complains about the people voting for him without reason, but instead of actually going after them, he votes for me, the guy who actually gave reasons for suspecting him.

I think we've got a scum here, folks.

In fact, I did argue that voting is scummy, and only say I could because it seems self evident that if we (you, whoever) take the approach that "all town will keep a vote at all times" scum are free to vote whoever they want without giving a reason and if questioned "I just wanted to keep my vote on someone because it's more town than not voting." It eliminates the effort a scum would have to make in coming up with a legitimate reason for their votes.

I am voting you because you are setting up an excuse for mafia by presenting an argument that gives scum an essential get out of jail free card.

I am not voting for certain people because I don't think they are scum, just scummy. As it is, the things that make them seem scummy could merely be an effect of their newness. I haven't done any meta research (and tend not to), but it could be they legitimately dunno how to approach a game like this, but then again, it could not be newness. I am making a note to watch their later actions, which are not admittedly significantly better. Pending on how arguments go, I am more likely to advocate a lynch of SirB or Cobbler than you, but at this moment (since a vote on someone is better than no one, right?), I am choosing to vote you.

Also, the mention of me saying "mafia" rather than scum is out of habit of playing without wolves and mafia. To me, they are traditionally the same entity, but yeah, I will work to keep that distinction in mind in future posts. I will comment on other stuff later. Out of time at the moment.

[Primate]

should I be worried that you left me off your list?

I'm leaning slightly town on you. To be honest I haven't continued to be as happy with you as I was at the beginning of the game, but I don't think you've done anything scummy yet.

@TOF: Good post.

[funkybike1]

Yeah. Just remember, anything can be explained as a Freudian slut... er, slip.

[crypto]

Funkybike1, do something or I'm leading a lynch on you.

[Yosarian2]

In fact, I did argue that voting is scummy, and only say I could because it seems self evident that if we (you, whoever) take the approach that "all town will keep a vote at all times" scum are free to vote whoever they want without giving a reason and if questioned "I just wanted to keep my vote on someone because it's more town than not voting." It eliminates the effort a scum would have to make in coming up with a legitimate reason for their votes.

I don't think that makes sense at all. Everyone still needs to have a reason for their votes; they should always be voting for the person they think is the most suspicious. I just also expect people to have a reason for deliberately not voting, especially when they appear to have suspicions about someone.

I not only expect everyone to have a vote on someone, I also expect them to be able to explain why they think that person is the most suspicious. Not having a good suspect at this point is itself basically scummy.

If you really don't think it's a good idea to vote right now, then don't, but you still have to scumhunt, you still have to agressivly go after people you think are suspicious. If you had been scumhunting more, then even if you hadn't voted, I wouldn't have had a problem with your play. But it seemed like you started off with a problem with someone's play, and then just kind of forgot about it; that looked scummy to me.

I am voting you because you are setting up an excuse for mafia by presenting an argument that gives scum an essential get out of jail free card.

Of course it doesn't. A person who doesn't seem to have any reason for their vote and can't explain their vote when asked is just as scummy as a person who's not voting at all.

The key isn't just voting, it's scumhuting.

Anyway, it's kind of silly to say I'm "setting up an excuse" for voting with no reason, when I myself gave quite a lot of reasons for my voting.

Pending on how arguments go, I am more likely to advocate a lynch of SirB or Cobbler than you, but at this moment (since a vote on someone is better than no one, right?), I am choosing to vote you.

Do you actually think that me aggressively going after you, and that me voting aggressively in general, makes me more likely scum then town? If so, why?

If you actually think I'm scum, you need to make a case against me, explain why, question me, try to get other people on board the Yoswagon, and generally try to attack me. It really looks like your vote against me was more defensive then anything else; you didn't like that I was voting you, and you didn't want to be attacked anymore for not voting, so you voted me.

[funkybike1]

For the first time ever, I think that Yos is actually making sense. Does that mean that he's town? No.

(Also, TOF, why do you say that voting is scummy? Do you want to be lynched?

Crypto, what are your opinions on who the scum is? You seem to just be trying to force things without anything behind it.

[crypto]

Unvote. Vote: funkybike1.

[Hiraki]

I'm all down for funkybike after we get either more momentum or a lynch on the current wagon.

[scooby]

For the first time ever, I think that Yos is actually making sense. Does that mean that he's town? No.

(Also, TOF, why do you say that voting is scummy? Do you want to be lynched?

Crypto, what are your opinions on who the scum is?

You seem to just be trying to force things

without anything behind it.

Scum number 2 found.

Same reason as TOF: A subtle attack to test the waters.

Who the hell asks "do you want to be lynched"?

[scooby]

I think scoobies point was fair but weak, calling it a case is a stretch, and I'm unsure why he thought it was worthy of comment like it was a big thing, especially considering TOF did respond. This also raises the question though, why didn't he respond to TOF's response to his case?

It is a case.

People making weak attacks (using too many conditionals) are scum pretty much all the time since they don't believe in what they are saying/ are scared of getting in absolutes/ want an exit if the case is refuted= saying "oh I said you seemed to be doing that, now it's okay :happyface:.