The Children of Húrin Mafia (GREAT REVIVAL)

[MagnaofIllusion]

Busted

Lol, whut? You pull quotes from where I was questioning

you

on

your stances

and are now trying to say that I was advocating keeping Feysal alive?

LULZ!!!

To refresh your memory (since you aren't actually scum-hunting) here’s my thoughts from back when the Topic first came up.

Leashed Serial Killers are never a good idea. Why? They have no long term motivation to actually help Town. Their goal is to survive long enough to achieve their wincondition which does not mesh with Town. So unlike a Town vig they do not have pure motivations. The question becomes … how do you ‘leash’ them. Town’s only threat is basically the promise of a lynch if they do not shoot ‘approved targets’. Since the targets are public the Mafia have full disclosure and can choose to interfere or not (via roleblock / redirect / whatever they have at their disposal). Thus you are certain of having dead Townies when Town directs poorly but no guarantee of dead Mafia when they choose wisely. This situation doesn’t aid Town.

I don't leave claimed Serial Killers alive unless you have a guarenteed scum lynch in their place. If you can provide me with one Gandalf I'm happy to listen. Otherwise we are probably done in this round and round.

So what you did was pick some completely out-of-context quotes to suggest I wanted to keep Feysal alive which didn’t reflect my thoughts at all.

And then thought

HERPADERP

if I show them multiple times people will not notice that I’m completely taking them out of context.

You are really bad at this aren’t you MoS.

I’ll just mark this down as another reason you are flailing scum in this discussion.

MORE MOS VOTES PLEASE!!!!!!!!

[Mastermind of Sin]

You need to pick up some reading comprehension skills, MoI...

Oh yes, now you're going to try to backtrack out of this one by saying you never advocated directing Feysal's shots yourself...and yet here you are, attacking me for not trusting Feysal to vig Gandalf and calling that a contradiction.

Read that again, especially the second part. I'm not saying that

you

personally want Feysal to be kept alive and directed. I'm saying that you ATTACKED me for NOT wanting Feysal kept alive by saying that

I

should want Feysal to kill Gandalf because he's "the closest thing in the game to a Vig", and then proceeded to argue AGAINST that very attack by claiming that Feysal doesn't think Gandalf is scum and thus can't be expected to vig him.

You are contradicting yourself by holding me to a standard where

I

am supposed to take the stance of using Feysal as a vig to kill Gandalf even though we

both

agree that Feysal will not be convinced to kill Gandalf. Your questioning of my stances involved a clear logical contradiction.

Let me spell it out even more clearly:

MoS Stance #1:

Gandalf is likely a jester and should be vigged.

MoS Stance #2/MoI Stance #1:

Feysal is scum and cannot be trusted to kill the people we want dead, so he needs to die.

MoI Stance #2:

MoS should not want Feysal dead because he's the closest thing we have to a vig.

MoS Stance #3:

MoI's Stance #2 completely contradicts the agreed upon MoS Stance #2/MoI Stance #1. If MoS believes that Feysal cannot be trusted to kill Gandalf (or anyone else we the town thinks is scum, for that matter), there is no reason for him to take the stance that Feysal should be kept alive and directed. Thus, MoI Stance #2 is logically invalid and contradictory.

Now that we've solved that mystery, let's get back to doing something productive. Someone on the Kanye wagon is scum, if not multiple people. Let's find them and hunt them down, preferably starting with Ellibereth.

[Sun and Moon]

MoS, what is your read on MoI?

Use of terms like "busted" make me think you think he is scum, but your previous post does not.

-Amrun

[Plum]

VOTE COUNT #2.6

Furcolow - 1 - Espeonage
Feysal - 1 - Dekes
VitaminR - 3 - Herodotus, Gut, Empking
Dekes - 2 - SpyreX, VitaminR
kanyeknowsbest -

6

- Wraith, gandalf5166, ooba, Ellibereth, mockingjaye, Andrius
Mastermind of Sin - 2 - Furcolow, MagnaofIllusion
Ellibereth -1 - Mastermind of Sin

Not Voting (4): Sun and Moon, Feysal, kanyeknowsbest, Will-o-wisp

With 20 alive it will take 10 votes to lynch.

Deadline for Day 1 will be on October 13th; exact time will be determined soon but basically when I feel like it.

[mockingjaye]

Mockingjaye has almost singularly been focused on Kanye for the entire game. Her posts have been very verbose, but if you can stop your eyes from glazing over and actually look at the details, it's nearly all about Kanye. That's a hell of a lot of posting just about one player being scum. It's either tunnel vision or an attempt to look like she's contributing a lot without actually commenting on anything else that's going on in the game. (She made a brief comment on Gandalf/Andrius, hasn't said anything about MoI, and made a short argument in favor of keeping Feysal alive that actually made no sense because she's trusting a third party player to correctly report their wincon rather than just make one up that will please the town!)

1. I think Kanye is scum, so yes, I've posted a lot about him. I have also discussed several others who I think are scum, too, but you either didn’t read my posts or are deliberately ignoring what I said about Empking, Espeonage, and S&M. (The comments about Pere and Feysal obviously don’t matter much anymore.) If you want to know WHY I think he's scum, go read my posts again, then read his responses to my questions to him, if you can find them. He skated around a couple when pressed more than once and flat out ignored most of them.

2. I don’t generally discuss null/town reads unless asked about someone specifically, which is the reason I haven’t discussed MoI. If he hits my top five list, you'll know. That's something you wouldn't know about me necessarily, so I can see you making a comment that I've only talked about a handful of people. HOWEVER, I haven’t discussed a lot of people, including you, so why does it concern you that I haven’t specifically talked about MoI?

3. I said there was no reason to kill Feysal today. Actually lynching a mafia member would be more beneficial than outright lynching a third player today. If he had been outed on D3 or 4, and we had managed to also lynch a mafia member, then I wouldn’t necessarily advocate keeping him alive any longer. As it happens, it’s D2, and there was only one kill last night, so we’re in a pretty good position numbers-wise, so why not chain his kill?

If you really read my last post, you would also know that I was the SK in the last game I was in, and I argued for the same thing when we were caught (we were a hydra). In that game, our role was to kill all the male Olympians and then we would win and leave the game. Therefore we could have won with the town, since there were also female Olympians. The SK from Plum's first

LOTR

game last year was also able to win with the town. Given these two examples, I'm not trigger-happy with SKs this early in the game. There's a decent chance that he's lying about his wincon, but even so, I still don't want to lynch him today. It has nothing to do with trusting him or not; it has to do with town having some measure of power over a kill while we try to flip scum and figure out some of the other mechanics of the game.

4. Talking down to people isn't helping your argument. Just saying.

___

Right now I still want to lynch Kanye. I don't like that the wagons are stalled, again, and that he's one of them, again. I also don't like his showing up only after it looks like he's close to being lynched and dishes out that "either both/neither" comment. Also, the comments about the wagon being stupid or retarded, or something from RVS, or whatever other reason all seem to be motivated by wanting to deflect a lynch on him rather than sincerely wanting to lynch someone else, which only makes me want his lynch more. Esp and Emp are also still on my list, but they haven't had much to say today. I'm still debating a few reads, but for now, those are my lynch preferences.

[Furcolow]

I'd say if we lynch MoS, then go through his FoSs, we'd have 2-3 scum
(including him!)

[Empking]

I'd say if we lynch MoS, then go through his FoSs, we'd have 2-3 scum
(including him!)

Says claimed third party. MOS is the towniest player this game.

[Herodotus]

@Empking: why?

@Furcolow: what are your full win conditions? And did you say something about choosing your win condition, or am I misremembering? If so, how does that work -- when do you choose?

[Empking]

@Empking: why?

Going out of his way to be brave and scumhunt (plus a lot of effort.)

[gandalf5166]

Unvote
VOTE: MoS

We still have time to turn around.

[VitaminR]

On a maybe too personal note, has anything happened recently to put you on edge? You seem uncharacteristicly non-charismatic.

If we are going to get personal, I can maybe get a little frustrated with CES. I feel like I'm pretty slow to vote him (because I'd feel worse about mislynching him than I would for other people) and I've defended him in the past, but he doesn't really do either and seems to act as if he can read me with confidence. I had to deal with the same shtick in Open 318 (though that was worse, because his case was purely associative). I guess my hope was that having people who know my playstyle in the game would help me through the early stages of the game, where I can run into trouble in large games.

I'm not -sure- you are scum. At goofbash I was using heavy meta cause we played so many games, if I was able to read you then that's why. I don't actually have a high confidence in my ability to read you in forum mafia, and what I've seen from you does take into consideration how you are in a general sense, but not really your meta, because frankly I don't know what your forum scum meta even looks like. Some of your earlier posts looked a lot like posts I myself made the first time I was scum after returning from a long hiatus. And that's largely what I'm going on.

Sadly, I can't point you to any recent games in which I was scum. I don't even know what my forum scum meta is like now!

I could dig up some old games if you want. I used to be more serious as scum, very much concerned with consistency and building cases.

He might not be a bad lynch.

Why did you add that sentence?

Because that's what I thought at the time. That was just my feeling about his posts.

You took all the potential for pressure out of it.. It's a minor thing, but it can be a scum tell.

I don't really agree with you on the theory here, but that aside, why did you even feel the need to defend this suspicion if it was as minor as you say? Why do you need to qualify it as minor? Why did you add "but it CAN be a scum tell"?

I defended it because PeregrineV asked me about it. But it wasn't really why I was voting PeregrineV (it was just part of a pattern of bad votes), and I felt he was getting the emphasis of my suspicion wrong, so I stressed that it was minor. "It can be a scum tell" was just supposed to mean that I think it's a scum tell for a certain type of player (less experienced, slightly nervous players).

This is lazy and the town reads are a little too obvious to my mind:

Can town not be lazy? Are obvious reads inconsistent with being lazy? What was achieved by saying this?

I have a hard time being prolific in large games, so I feel the need to post more than I normally would (I sometimes get the lurker label attached to me early in a big game and then end up being lynched late in the game just because people never quite look past that). I also feel more of a need to catalogue my suspicions in-thread, because otherwise I forget about them over the course of the game.

Calling that lazy and the town reads obvious was just a way of putting into words my bad gut feeling about the post. But yes, the significance of it depends on the player and their play in the rest of the game.

Also,

FOS: mockingjaye

. That Kanye vote felt very convenient. You're making a post seem significant that actually isn't really to allow you to hop onto the Kanye wagon.

Why did you fos here? What do you feel fosing accomplished? Why not wait and let him make more mistakes if you felt your vote was better served on Lord Chronos?

What I said above, basically. Partly not wanting to forget about it, partly wanting to contribute more.

[VitaminR]

So Faraday has weighed in with the following scum reads (his own, I’m guessing) –

VitaminR – Based more or less on gut.

Ha! I get some solace out of the fact that Faraday can't actually read me. I was obvious in Open 318, that wasn't hard.

[VitaminR]

I'd say if we lynch MoS, then go through his FoSs, we'd have 2-3 scum
(including him!)

Says claimed third party. MOS is the towniest player this game.

Agree with this. MoS is a bad vote.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, what is your read on MoI?

Use of terms like "busted" make me think you think he is scum, but your previous post does not.

-Amrun

Read: 25% scum, 25% town, 50% idiot. 100% not a lynch target anytime soon.

I used the term busted because he either does not understand what he's talking about or he was purposefully unwilling to abase himself after I caught him on the contradiction. Some players are simply stubborn, however, and that's how they react when they mess up, even if they're town. My previous experience with MoI makes me want to put him in that category, which unfortunately makes it hard to tell if he's scum.

1. I think Kanye is scum, so yes, I've posted a lot about him. I have also discussed several others who I think are scum, too, but you either didn’t read my posts or are deliberately ignoring what I said about Empking, Espeonage, and S&M. (The comments about Pere and Feysal obviously don’t matter much anymore.) If you want to know WHY I think he's scum, go read my posts again, then read his responses to my questions to him, if you can find them. He skated around a couple when pressed more than once and flat out ignored most of them.

I got the impression that most of your scum reads were based around the conclusion that Kanye was scum (ie, you were looking for his scumbuddies and trying to link them). That's all fine and well, but that's what I meant by saying that nearly all of your posts have been about Kanye. If you're right about Kanye being scum (which I don't think you are), then you've done a lot of work in the right direction. However, until we find out Kanye's alignment for sure, it behooves you to look for scum from different angles than that singular conclusion.

2. I don’t generally discuss null/town reads unless asked about someone specifically, which is the reason I haven’t discussed MoI. If he hits my top five list, you'll know. That's something you wouldn't know about me necessarily, so I can see you making a comment that I've only talked about a handful of people. HOWEVER, I haven’t discussed a lot of people, including you, so why does it concern you that I haven’t specifically talked about MoI?

It's not that I'm worried about you giving reads on MoI. However, if we were to make a list of major topics that have come up in this game, it'd go something like this (no particular order):

- Gandalf's claim + Andrius' claim
- Kanye
- Feysal + subsequent claim
- Furcolow + Feysal third party-ness and connection
- MoI having contact with the Seraphs
- Why the fuck was PeregrineV lynched?

There are other more minor topics, but I'd say that covers *most* of the information that has come out in this thread so far (Disclaimer: just working off the top of my head here). I found it somewhat significant that there were major topics on which you had not yet commented on, including MoI.

3. I said there was no reason to kill Feysal today. Actually lynching a mafia member would be more beneficial than outright lynching a third player today. If he had been outed on D3 or 4, and we had managed to also lynch a mafia member, then I wouldn’t necessarily advocate keeping him alive any longer. As it happens, it’s D2, and there was only one kill last night, so we’re in a pretty good position numbers-wise, so why not chain his kill?

I don't trust him to kill scum, and now that I think of it, I generally don't approve of town-directed vigs anyway. I approve of me-directed vigs (obviously), but my relatively long experience on this site has told me that publicly announcing a vig's target in-thread usually has bad consequences (even if the town can agree on a target, that requires me to put faith in the town's ability to correctly choose a target...something that I rarely have faith in, as indicated my forum title). And that's without the extra caveat that Feysal is not aligned with the town, and so can't be trusted to make such decisions on his own without being completely directed by the town. There's also the theoretical-but-unlikely scenario that Feysal is mafia who claimed third party as a gambit, so if we ever directed him to kill an actual scumbuddy he'd just claim something went wrong with the kill. It's too early to speculate on all the possible scenarios with what little evidence we have, but suffice it to say that I don't see a reason to keep one anti-town players alive just on the offchance that we *might* catch a different one today.

If you really read my last post, you would also know that I was the SK in the last game I was in, and I argued for the same thing when we were caught (we were a hydra). In that game, our role was to kill all the male Olympians and then we would win and leave the game. Therefore we could have won with the town, since there were also female Olympians. The SK from Plum's first

LOTR

game last year was also able to win with the town. Given these two examples, I'm not trigger-happy with SKs this early in the game. There's a decent chance that he's lying about his wincon, but even so, I still don't want to lynch him today. It has nothing to do with trusting him or not; it has to do with town having some measure of power over a kill while we try to flip scum and figure out some of the other mechanics of the game.

4. Talking down to people isn't helping your argument. Just saying.

___

Right now I still want to lynch Kanye. I don't like that the wagons are stalled, again, and that he's one of them, again. I also don't like his showing up only after it looks like he's close to being lynched and dishes out that "either both/neither" comment. Also, the comments about the wagon being stupid or retarded, or something from RVS, or whatever other reason all seem to be motivated by wanting to deflect a lynch on him rather than sincerely wanting to lynch someone else, which only makes me want his lynch more. Esp and Emp are also still on my list, but they haven't had much to say today. I'm still debating a few reads, but for now, those are my lynch preferences.

The Kanye wagon is "stupid" because he clearly reads to me as a VI in this game. I think this is an easy wagon that people are jumping on because it doesn't take a lot of scumhunting to say "look, he's derpaderping, let's lynch him!" So of course I'm doing everything I can to derail this wagon, just like I did with the town-Mastin hydra in [REDACTED], where I was town. As such, I've presented analysis on who I think to be the likely scum candidates in this game, to provide alternative lynch options.

That being said, I feel a lot better about you being town after your response. We pretty much disagree on almost everything, but disagree with me doesn't make you scum.

[SpyreX]

As a princess who hasn't been sleeping much and is frayed at the edges these pages are the worst pages.

This fight is as useful as a duck's echo.

Pick a direction and move.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well deadline is basically in three Days. Most of the game has dithered around doing much of nothing. I’m going to move my vote to Kayne in the next 36 hours or so unless a viable alternative really gets moving.

--

MoS, what is your read on MoI?

Use of terms like "busted" make me think you think he is scum, but your previous post does not.

-Amrun

This is what qualifies as content from your slot? Either replace out or get more productive. At this stage we pretty much are inundated with lurkers who aren’t doing much of anything. If you are too busy to play that’s fine but this level of participation isn’t cutting it.

The following players who are still in the game haven’t posted in over 3 days

–

Elli, kayne, Andrius, WoW, Feysal, Espeonage, Dekes

@MOD – Mass prod these players or something please.

Not surprisingly I find the likelihood that at least three of that group to be scum to be approximately 75%. And yes, I pulled that figure right out of the air.

--

Now that we've solved that mystery, let's get back to doing something productive. Someone on the Kanye wagon is scum, if not multiple people. Let's find them and hunt them down, preferably starting with Ellibereth.

Why is Elli scum? Reasons are tek.

Also why are you focusing solely on the Kayne wagon? He’s unflipped so you have NO idea about what votes on him mean in the context of alignment and relational tells.

Why aren’t you looking at the Peregrine wagon? He’s flipped Town and that wagon was much worse than the Kayne wagon. Especially in light of your post at 1163 where you say this –

Why the fuck was PeregrineV lynched?

Read that again, especially the second part. I'm not saying that you personally want Feysal to be kept alive and directed. I'm saying that you ATTACKED me for NOT wanting Feysal kept alive by saying that I should want Feysal to kill Gandalf because he's "the closest thing in the game to a Vig", and then proceeded to argue AGAINST that very attack by claiming that Feysal doesn't think Gandalf is scum and thus can't be expected to vig him.

I’ll make this simple so you can understand it.

1. You claim Gandalf is Jester-scum that needs Vigged.
2. Feysal is the closest thing to Vig we know about currently.
3. Feysal is not going to be lynched today because people like to leave Serial Killer alive.

You claim that your stance on Gandalf is standard MoS play but I haven’t seen you say “Hey Feysal, shoot Gandalf tonight or I am going to run your lynch through tomorrow”. That’s what I would expect Town frustrated by the inability to get a lynch on Feysal to do. It’s pretty much what I did giving Feysal his “MoI approved list”.

Yet despite your ‘hard stand’ on Gandalf you’re going nothing of the sort. It makes me think your stances are completely for show.

--

As a princess who hasn't been sleeping much and is frayed at the edges these pages are the worst pages.

This fight is as useful as a duck's echo.

Pick a direction and move.

Your vote is still on Dekes. We unfortunately aren’t getting a Dekes lynch today apparently. So to be useful yourself why don’t you translate your vote to somewhere where it might actually matter.

[SpyreX]

Your vote is still on Dekes. We unfortunately aren’t getting a Dekes lynch today apparently. So to be useful yourself why don’t you translate your vote to somewhere where it might actually matter.

The same could be said for anywhere but KKB at the moment. So, I'll braid my hair and when it comes to that that is where it will go.

[Will-o-wisp]

As a princess who hasn't been sleeping much and is frayed at the edges these pages are the worst pages.

This fight is as useful as a duck's echo.

Pick a direction and move.

They could maybe pick a direction and move if you know, people like you weren't actively lurking.

I am here, Magna. No need to get activity nazi on my ass.

I will comment on the MoS v MoI thing in a moment.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I am here, Magna. No need to get activity nazi on my ass.

Actually I think I do. Because I'd be willing to wager over the last 10 pagers or so the precentage of posts outside of a group of about 5 posters is about 25-33% ...

This game has stagnated in a frustrating way.

[Will-o-wisp]

Game relevant?

Of course?

In what way? The only possible ways I could think of this being relevant are post notifications, which would be incredibly counterproductive as a game would surely clog up an email, PM notifications in which case you are having the mod PM Kanye to return, or QT notifications in which case posting in the PM would clog up Kanye's email.

One of these things is not like the other... the ambivalence surrounding your slot is also odd.

Fos: Gut

Going to iso you tonight.

EBWOP: Ooba's last post gave me good vibes, minus the bit about Kanye needing to be lynched. I'm glad I'm not the only sane person in this game.

Thanks. I agree that Ooba is likely town.

@MoI: Right now my top three suspects are Kanye, VitR, and SpyreX, in that order.

Agree with this post. Basically my reads lol.

I am here, Magna. No need to get activity nazi on my ass.

Actually I think I do. Because I'd be willing to wager over the last 10 pagers or so the precentage of posts outside of a group of about 5 posters is about 25-33% ...

This game has stagnated in a frustrating way.

Trying doing this with a hydra partner who has flaked. Mist, please come back. I miss talking about the game away from prying eyes.

I have concluded that MoS and MoI are both likely town.

Also, the Seraph revelation wasn't the only reason that I said MoI was town, but it damn near could be the only reason MoI is town in my opinion.

[Will-o-wisp]

ebwop: VOTE: Kanye

[SpyreX]

They could maybe pick a direction and move if you know, people like you weren't actively lurking.

Time to take off the princess gloves for a moment and take whatever punishment that may bring.

You know, between the just bringing a child home, having about 10 hours of sleep in the last week and pulling double shifts to maintain

I've still contributed more than over half the players in this game

.

Compare that to our team wonderbread hyrdas you and S&M who aren't even drooling on the keyboard and just are awol - it must just be one of those amazing coincidences caused by a butterfly farting in Mexico that LITERALLY MINUTES after getting called out for not posting for three days LO AND BEHOLD there you are. Almost like you've been here the whole time, huh?

This last back and forth with MoI and MoS is a lottttt of unnecessary words and its so much cleaner when MoI, WHO IS TOWN AND LITERALLY THE ONLY PERSON ACTUALLY PLAYING RIGHT NOW, just skips the fighting and gets right to the point like above.

My vote staying on Dekes isn't a function of actively lurking and if you were going to use your eyeballs to parse the pretty lines on the screen into a format that makes sense you'd see it for exactly what it is - me saying that when the chips are down KKB is going to be lynched and I WILL help that happen but its not my first choice by a longshot.

These above paragraphs now eclipse your play this entire game. Additionally I love the callout about me when, lo and behold, you're not even voting.

THIS RIGHT HERE is why Feysal needs to live. These things need to get purged with holy fire and fast.

But, for those playing at home:

MoI is town. Sadly, he is the only player at this point I am that confident about being town. And if somehow I'm wrong there GG because at this point he has my support until the dark times are over.

Andirus and Gandalf? Death.
Every hydra in this game but Gut (I think)? Death.
Dekes? Death.
Everyone on that list that can't even make a token effort in three days? Death.

MoI, I will give my opinions but at this juncture I am literally handing my vote over to you to do with as you see fit. Of the games I'm in I will freely admit this one is taking a back burner and that is in no small part to the issues you are bringing up now.

So, lets do it and now I'll go take my turn in the stockades.

Ohhh look at that P-Edit. Look at my absence of caring.

[Ellibereth]

I'm vla on weekends silly.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm vla on weekends silly.

So am I. Your activity outside the weekends still frankly stinks.

[Ellibereth]

~~Given I started being active last Thursdaaaay.
anyways blahblahwhatever