Mini 1243: Magician Mafia (Game Over)

[Junpei]

antagonistic is my interpretation and hardly any kind of buzzword. I do think their posts were antagonistic. This game is about giving interpretations and I don't think it's unfair of me to say I feel that way about specific posts. I also don't think saying they misrepresented something is a buzzword either because I backed it up with a quote from me that pretty much contradicts what they claimed I said.

Using buzzwords like semantics argument and strawmanning without providing concrete examples of how I am doing those things is different from what you are saying there.

Were there any other places you felt I twisted their words?

This is the whole quote... and it is in response to Anxiety asking if antagonistic and misrepresenting are buzzwords.

How about we all stop asking Vi about her post restriction in an effort to get her modkilled?

It's pretty obvious what her restriction is, and there is nothing she can do about it. If you can't figure it out on your own, then that's your problem. Regardless of her alignment, baiting for modkills is dirty pool. So, knock it off.

Explain to me how that is unclear in any way, shape or form. Even drawing a picture would make that less clear than it already is.

Whenever you're ready to answer this, that'd be great. You can malign my name all you'd like and say I'm arguing semantics, but if you can't actually prove your point, then I don't see how you feel you're actually scumhunting.

For those of you following at home not so closely, this is the interaction:

Sottyrulez: CC was trying to get people to stop communicating with Vi.
CC: I don't see how what I said could have been interpreted that way.
Sottyrulez: I see how it could. You were saying to stop talking about her post restriction like it was a bad thing, implying you knew for sure she was telling the truth.
CC: Please show me where I said to stop talking to her.
Sottyrulez: LOL SEMANTICS
CC: What? Here's the quote where I explicitly said, let's not push on the post restriction she said she could get modkilled over. I think that goes against the integrity of mafia.
Sottyrulez: CC just wants to argue. LYNCH NAO.

and etc. Your complete and utter refusal to back anything up with logic shows you got in too deep with a bad argument, as scum are wont to do. I think I've given you plenty of chances to admit you simply misinterpreted what I wrote. Now you're actively misrepresenting it and painting it like I'm trying to malign your name through jedi mind tricks. I've directly quoted what I said and expressed how it is completely clear. Unless you can do the same, you're just puffing hot air.

Here is the full quote which Anxiety is saying contradicts the previous statement.

In an attempt to clarify his argument, I think that he means that CC found it scummy that sotty interpreted their posts in a way different than he meant, and that's not okay. But it is okay when CC interprets sotty's posting as 'antagonistic'.

Is this what you mean? If it is then you are REALLY snipping posts and making it very unclear. This is actually a decent point, and something CC should respond to, but just looking at your post there's no way I could have understood what you meant.

[4nxi3ty]

i was showing that cc wanted sotty to provide specific examples with quotes, when i ask for the same thing he is the one being antagonistic and i am the one misrepresenting posts, which is a double standard that indicates a scummy mindset.

[4nxi3ty]

ebwop:"misrepresenting posts "

[Junpei]

I never got the impression that CC was responding to your "please provide specific examples" with "misrepping me so hard", rather that they were responding to your actual case with that.

It went like this I think:

>anxiety:"anxiety case on CC"
>CC:"Misrepped me so hard"
>anxiety:"specific examples please"
>CC:"I'll make a timeline to show you but im busy right now"

Does that perhaps clear it up for you? Because I think that you are not understanding what is being said.

[4nxi3ty]

>anx: "here is a reason why your scum"
>cc:"your wrong cause you can't follow the timeline"
>jun:"can you give me a timeline?"
>anx:"here is another reason unrelated to the gnr timeline"
>cc:"your wrong cause your dumb and omg misrep"
>anx:"you could write a

simple

timeline instead of discrediting me"
>cc:"no im busy"
>anx:"you haven't provided specific counter-points to any of my arguments including the timeline"

[Junpei]

Ugh, fine, I'll do a full reincarnation of the conversation since it was so shitty and we clearly need consensus.

>Anxiety:"GNR scum with CC because reason X"
>CC:"We pushed hard on GNR, we turned the town onto him, lol we're not his scumpal"
>Anxiety:"No, you did not! Others had indicated the willingess to kill GNR prior!"
>CC:"But we made the first legit case on it, we were the driving force!"
>Anxiety:"Look at all of this contradictions in what CC is saying on her GNR read!"
>CC:"Ugh, no, I meant night 1 not end of day 1... I could make timeline if I had time to explain this supposed dissonance"
>Junpei:"Could you?"
>CC:"Yes, okay, when I have time, perhaps sunday"

>Anxiety:"{I don't understand #7 so I'm going to ask for clarification} and AtE!"
>CC:"Your argument {I'm assuming the one about GNRs' interaction with CC = CC scum} has nothing to do with the timeline, it is not needed to prove that point wrong!"
>Saulres:"Clarify your case for me, Anxiety"
>Anxiety:"gnr being reluctant to label cc as scum is a minor factor, there were many; the main ones being the 1v1 with sottyrulez, your provocation, and cc's bus of gnr. = clarification on my case"
>CC:"You're misrepping me by selective quoting and snipping!{I assume that this will be further substantiated on with the timeline} You are twisting my words!"
>Anxiety:"Oh so it's not okay when I interpret your posts how I want to but it's okay when you interpret sotty's posts how you want? Double standard scum!"

God I hope that's right, it sure seems right. Anyway I basically think that we can summize this argument in a few lines:

Need timeline from CC
After.. need clear questions from Anxiety
Second line AFTER first line

[Luxury]

I understand where you're coming from in relation to Crabs hydra dissonace and contradiction in stances taken but I've played in a lot of hydras myself and a change of read or reversal of read is very very common and understandable as town. I still very much feel we should be lynching between Anxiety and Amrun today though not including the roleblocking on Anxiety and him being scum making sense with the missing kills his play reads as town so I'm uncertain on him to a degree and would prefer an Amrun lynch over him at the moment. The fact that she never claimed her amazing ability until after Snake stated she had it still continues to read as incredibly off-putting as does inclusion of an ability that she 'doesn't know what it does'.

Also right now our strongest town-read by a long way is Saulres though I still think Junpei is likely town due to the claim as well, mafia having direct control to two kills is incredibly overpowered and inclusion of re-director makes a great deal of sense.

Vote: Amrun

[4nxi3ty]

you are being very non-commital with your read. you deflect to amrun(one of the easiest lynches) and say she is the best lynch because of only one point(the vt claim)

[saulres]

as does inclusion of an ability that she 'doesn't know what it does'.

While I'm not against an Amrun lynch (still waiting on her response to my request for reconcilliation I'd like to point out that she wasn't the only Amazing (see: confirmed townie Ace) who also didn't know what the ability does. Current speculation is that it was just flavor.

[Junpei]

Crab Canon, is the timeline coming along okay?

[Junpei]

Also right now

our

strongest town-read by a long way is Saulres though I still think Junpei is likely town due to the claim as well, mafia having direct control to two kills is incredibly overpowered and inclusion of re-director makes a great deal of sense.

Vote: Amrun

So Shift is back?

Shift: Says that he reacts only... but uses those answers to anticipate my supposed move of "NO ANSWER U SCUM". Strange contradiction..

Please explain this blatant contradiction, Shift.

[Crab Canon]

Hi, it's Juls. I just got back today but I have been skimming throughout the week. VP is busy with work but says he is going to try to get to this tonight. If he can't I will but I just finished a 20 hour drive and am dead tired.

[Junpei]

well I don't know what works best for you but we really shouldn't keep stalling this... I mean do you think that tonight you could get it done? I don't want to keep pushing this back, as it is of great importance, but I also don't know if I can demand something of you the way things seem to be over there.

One thing is for sure and that is that tomorrow if you don't have the timeline complete I'm voting you until you have it.

Well.. give me a realistic projection of when this can get done, because I'd like to have something to hold BOTH of you to.

[Crab Canon]

Junpei, your threats don't scare me. If you want to vote me then do it now. Save us the bull shit reason you will make up based on our timeline. I said in my last post it will be done tonight. If vp doesn't do it in the next few hours I will.

[Junpei]

>Will try to get it done tonight

Earlier I got something like

>Will get to it later
>Maybe tomorrow

So you can see why when I saw your post, especially after hearing
>I'm dead tired after a 20 hour drive
and
>busy with work

I immediately got concerned that you wouldn't follow through. But now you've committed to doing it tonight to me, and I can't wait.

[Luxury]

Shift: Says that he reacts only... but uses those answers to anticipate my supposed move of "NO ANSWER U SCUM". Strange contradiction, which could be explained as scum trying to fabricate an appearance/answers. There's a split in the persona that I would have guessed from his answers and his actions. He doesn't seem to use gut like he says he's going to in the first page. I just don't see it at all. His lazy factor is prevalent though for sure, he's busy a lot and ends up replacing out. Question 4 turned out to be a lot more wifom than I had hoped. In fact its only use really is getting reactions from people saying that scum will act like typical town, which is just wifom as defined, as it is an inverse town tell (not doing what town would do, but town would do X, but then scum would do X to seem town.. etc).

So not really much at all indicative of alignment and I can't do this on the hydra at all, but got a weird contradiction. Shift, care to explain?

I don't really get what you mean. "Says that he reacts only...but uses those answers to anticipate my supposed move of "NO ANSWER U SCUM". I don't get this sentence. At all. Be specific please in exactly what the contradiction is between whatever you're saying, the only thing I can tell is it's about me not liking RQS yet still answering them. I get literally nothing else about this sentence.

If you're saying the contradiction is in me answering them despite not liking them, though I doubt that's what you're referring to, then this is yet another thing I've already answered and if you'll excuse me I'm going to bash my face in with the nearest fire hydrant.

tl;dr: More specific I can't understand what the hell you're saying.

-Shift

[Luxury]

Oh, I got you now, one second, answer incoming.

[Luxury]

1. Saying I'm more of a reactionary person yet anticipating a NO ANSWER U SCUM reaction.

Every time I see RQS this pops into my head, it's hard not to anticipate it. That and when you're usually several pages behind it's a lot easier to react to rather than anticipate what's going on when you're catching up.

As for the using gut, if you'll look at my earlier posts I believe I was mainly using gut. When I partner with Regfan though I become a lot more logical, I believe you know us from another site in which case you would know why we work well together. Overall partnering with Regfan turns me into a much more logical and able being.

As for laziness, the glory of schoolwork and an overwhelming addiction to escapism.

-Shift

[Crab Canon]

OK I guess VP got busy and didn't get to it. Here is our QT timeline of discussions of GNR. I have only skimmed this week but I *think* this is what you wanted.

Juls posts her catchup post late Day 1. First mention of GNR in QT

GNR
----------
Post 57 - RQS answers are boilerplate.
Post 154 - WTF, jokes and isn't even participating in the game.
Post 243 - I think you can almost guarantee that GNR is scum after this post and a STRONG STRONG STRONG tie to sotty here. Bus your buddy, vote someone else.

VP responds to Juls read of GNR

I probably wouldn't push GNR's lynch too hard today unless you're certain. He looks like low hanging fruit to me, but I have a hard time telling alignment when people play that bad.

Juls notes her tell on GNR is associated to Sotty

No, it is an associative tell. I would rather lynch Sotty who I find more scummy and then if she flips scum go after GNR.

Juls gives VP an update on what's going on with the game since he is on the road

It has now come out that GNR and Vi are in fact Neighbors (Penn & Teller of course). She used GNR to post a case on spring (by posting something in their QT and having him post it in thread) but I don't know.

End of Day One, Start of Night One

VP arrives at his destination

Hey, just got to Oregon. I'm still pretty behind in the game. You would know best strategically what we need to do I'd think. What are your impressions?

Juls explains her reads on GNR

Also GNR is scum for Post 243 alone regardless of all the lurking and the newbness. Read it. Like read it and read it again. It's God awful. And he's lurking. I need to read the few games he has been in to see if this is the norm for him but I don't have time right this minute.

VP agrees with Juls on her GNR

Ok, I read up through page 20 just now while eating lunch. I can definitely see why you think GNR is scummy. He needs to die soon cause he's very likely scum.

End of Night One, Beginning of Day Two

Juls starts backing off because most of her thoughts on GNR were tied to Sotty

I would really rather lynch ace or Junpei to GNR. GNR is useless for sure, but most of my suspicion of him was related to Sotty flipping scum.

VP wants to head back to GNR

GNR leaving stuff out from what Vi asked and then trying to make an excuse for why he left it out bugs me too. He's playing the aloof card to the hilt. I'd like to look at some of his other games and see if he's really this out of it normally or not.

Juls responds

yeah his stuff today (Saturday) has been weak. He says he lurks but Vi seems to think he gives content. I haven't had a chance to review his games.

VP convincing Juls that GNR is scum

Why was it that you backed off of GNR so much? I think their theory is bad, but Vi getting a scum read from him in a QT is a pretty strong scum tell to me. Harder to hide your intentions in close quarters like that.

Juls agrees

Because some of my suspicions of him was tied to Sotty. I don't mind if you go back there at all. We might want to put some effort into reviewing some of his other games though. I am being a little lazy on that front.

VP posts our "concensus of reads post" which was eventually posted as Post 907 in thread

**reads**

Juls responds

GNR:
Agree. I would support his lynch today.

You left off Vi. Strong town read obviously. I would like the vote to go on GNR or Junpei but I am open to other suggestions.

VP looks into GNRs "other" games

Looking at GNR's games made me wary of him. He's the best lynch today.

End of Day Two, Start of Night Two

See, we just needed to get on the same page about GNR finally.

Wonder what that bit of wifom he threw in about Salures was about. Self hammering was dumb, but he gave himself something redeeming there I guess.

[Crab Canon]

Obviously us switching in and out has caused some confusion and for that I apologize but pushing it as some sort of scum tell is dumb.
Junpei, you have decided that VP saying there will be "no dissonance" and then us having conflicting reads on one person is some sort of scum tell. That, quite frankly, is stupid. Any time we have had a disagreement we have stated it explicitly in thread. It is pretty clear who is posting for us most of the time. We often refer to the other by name when stating our other heads reads. This, we admit, has not been a traditional hydra as we have both had to leave it solely in the others hands at different times. But this is no different than someone replacing in. You don't expect Snake to have the exact same reads as Locke do you?

I will try to read up in detail on what I have missed over the next couple days and sync up with VP.

[Junpei]

Crab Canon, I believe I stated here that my problem with your dissonance was just a issue I had with hydras, not your alignment.

Anyway thanks for doing that, I'll look into more when I have more time.

[Crab Canon]

The post you reference is the exact post that makes it look like you are attacking us for having "dissonance".

Oh I see now, Crab Canon is using hydra dissonance as reason for waffling on reads.

Yup, looks like you are saying we are scum here.

See, the thing here is a town hydra with issues could have those flip-floppy reads, but scum could also just be being noncommitable by abusing the hydra aspect of the slot.

By golly this looks accusatory too.

I don't like dysfunctional looking hydras, I can't tell what's going on in your head.

Yep, this too.

[Junpei]

I suppose I can see the angle that gives you that impression, but it is explained by me realizing what you were getting at, and then expressing my disgruntledness with it. First quote isn't me implicating you for it, just stating a fact. If I had said "wow, you're using hydra dissonance as an excuse?" then yes, it'd be condescending, but I did not. Second quote is explaining how it is a null read, and third is just restating my frustration.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Vote Count 4.5

Amrun (L-2) - Crab Canon, Luxury
Crab Canon (L-3) - 4nxi3ty
4nxi3ty (L-3) - Amrun

Not Voting (3) - SnakePlissken, Junpei, saulres

Deadline: Wednesday November 2 @ 11:00 AM Eastern
Countdown: (expired on 2011-11-02 11:00:00)

[Crab Canon]

Thanks for the timeline Juls. As you guys can clearly see, there was a logical progression of our thought process toward the GNR lynch. We had some trouble syncing up in our reads, but it was hardly flip flopping out of the blue...and this was all said in thread too. Hopefully going into more detail will end this useless cul-de-sac of a discussion so we can get back on track to lynching scum here.