The Children of Húrin Mafia (GREAT REVIVAL)

[Amrun]

Interesting theory, Feysal, but my role PM says that my partner is Nienor. I guess it could be lying.

I agree Espeonage is a suspicious character, but I think we should follow the seraph advice.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MORE SUN AND MOON VOTES PLEASE!!!

--

@Feysal

– I read 1674. It’s a big ball of nothing. Continue to ignore the facts. They are clearly not alignment confirmed Masons. Both acknowledge not having Mod confirmation in their Role PMs that they are alignment confirmed. Both acknowledge the Mod will not tell them they are. The fact that you are more focused on flavor (um, why Neinor and Turin know each other) and not actual scum behaviors in a Bastard game is clearly Anti-Town. Not that expect a Non-Town player to actually think from a Town perspective. It is one of the reasons I wanted you dead yesterday.

I also note that your refuse to vote either the Cop Guilty or hypo-Seraph guilty and want to free-lance with your vote.

--

i know amrun has a fair amount of experience as a vig so, i dont know, maybe im just hopeful in thinking she wouldnt unconditionally hand her shot off to someone unconfirmed to her?

Despite his lurkerdom this is an excellent point.

--

Who do you think is vig, then - Feysal?

Who killed Chrono?

Don't be stupid.

Who ever said that there is a requirement that there is a Vig in the game? You or your partners killed Chrono.

Continue to name-call if you wish. It’s what scum who can’t argue facts have to do.

I have every reason to think Ludi is town.

I took input on the shots, but I chose chrono because his play fit the scum meta I had of him as well AND Ludi had a corresponding scumread on you.

I did not vig you because you seemed likely to be lynched. It's not always best to shoot your top scumread - for example, in the last game we played where I was a very succesful vig, I shot the scum LEAST LIKELY to be lynched (SpyreX). That's universally the better way to vig.

1. Back-peddling engaged – now you didn’t offer up control to Magister / ooba but simply took input. Noted.
2. Cognitive Dissonance ahoy – you say vigging those likely to be lynched is a better way to vig but you claim shots on Chrono and Espeon who both are very lynchable as scum.

--

@Magister

- I note you completely dodge the question I asked about whether I am scum or not Magister. Why are you afraid to commit to a position? I see some “oh, it is growing on me” fluff that you can back away from when I die and flip Town Cop. Noted.

1. Sun and Moon is a near confirmed vigilante. They gave their kill on night one to me, and I choose Chronopie. Chronopie then died This is not something serial killers do, for one (and we already have a claimed serial killer), nor is it something mafia do with their kill. If Sun and Moon was mafia, turning over the entire mafia kill and making it hostage to me is plain stupid, considering I could choose one of their own and then Sun and Moon would be outed anyways.

This is typical shallow thinking. Assuming for the sake of the argument that you are Town here’s the situation - Sun and Moon are in a Neighborhood with you. For whatever reason they feel free to claim killing Power as a means to ‘build trust’ with you. The ‘offer’ to let you direct the kill. Two things happen at this point –

1. You choose a Town / Non-Mafia player to target. Scum kill said player. Sun and Moon earn ‘confirmation’.
2. You choose a Mafia player to target. They kill you. No-one is the wiser since there is no-one else in your claimed Neighborhood. It certainly doesn’t out Sun and Moon.

Furthermore Amrun is saying that you weren't even truly directing the kill but just providing input. Hardly the situation you are framing here.

2. Sun and Moon is confirmed as Turin. This makes it unlikely, just from a game stand point, that that slot would be scum. Turin as scum doesn't make much sense.

Ok, so you are leaning on “Source Flavor” as the crutch for this argument. I can go and pick out tons of games where that reasoning is exploded. Until we get a Mafia flip (aka Sun and Moon) you are making an empty argument here.

3. Sun and Moon is near confirmed town just by my own role pm. I believe Plum worded the pm's in such a way to leave some thimble of doubt in the players mind about whether they were actually confirmed or not.

Your role PM does not expressly say you know that he is Town aligned. That’s the end of the argument.

You must ask yourself why that stipulation in on Magna's role at all. Most of the time a cop lynches his guilty the day anyway and doesn't die. The only way it makes sense is if there is some way that lynching a guilty, in this case SaM millerhood, actually hurts town, contrary to standard principles.

Lulz, let’s play outguess the Mod in a Bastard game. Meanwhile I’ll point you to the following flip –

5. gandalf5166, Aerin, Town Twoshot-Sacrificial Arsonist

You must ask yourself why the stipulation on his Arsonist role? Oh wait, he's Mod confirmed Town.

So I'd rather have SaM role than yours Magna. Vig>Cop, and Vig+ other good stuff>>>Cop. Amrun being Turin>>> you claiming Turin. Add in the fact SaM is town to me, and I have no idea what you are, and I'm quite alright with you dying. I am sad because you were an active player, but that only matters up to a certain stage.

Nope, Cop>Vig (which doesn’t really apply since he’s not one but ….). A guilty result on both nets you scum. An innocent result on Town results in an alive player from a Cop and a dead player with a Vig (you know, like the Town Doc

you morons

scum Sun and Moon or his partners shot).

--

Shut up about your guilty, MoI. You know it's meaningless. If you want to push the scummy miller claim argument, fine, but the only way the guilty means something is if ML and Amrun are in this together in some sort of gambit.

Hey, it’s the scum partner of Sun and Moon who earlier said he was done responding and pouting like a 5 year old.

Continue to do anything you can to save your partner, Scum!

[Gut]

There are 2 of us MoI.

[Magister Ludi]

MoI, I answered that question you said I am dodging, already. If you read my posts, you would, um, see this.

[Magister Ludi]

Hoopla crunched some numbers in mafia discussion once, Vig contributed to a town win percentage two or three times more than a cop.

~~~
Magna, what are you reads on the four players I outlined several posts ago, those being Dekes, empking, kanye, and Heord.

[Feysal]

Continue to ignore the facts.

I could respond to this with "NO U" but that would lead us nowhere.

There is only one indisputable fact in this discussion, and that is Sun and Moon being Túrin. Even if we ignore the likelihood of whether or not Túrin could be a scum role, this fact alone makes your claim suspect, since you claimed the same character. Unless there are two Túrins, and I can't see how there could be, you must be lying. And I have noted how you keep bringing up Sun and Moon's substandard play and focusing on them not being alignment confirmed masons, while I can't recall you addressing the name counterclaim.

They are clearly not alignment confirmed Masons.

Yeah, I said so, did I not? Nevertheless, even without alignment confirmation, them being masons means Magister Ludi can speak on Sun and Moon's behalf. For one thing, I think it is significant that Sun and Moon claimed being millerized before you revealed your result.

The fact that you are more focused on flavor (um, why Nienor and Turin know each other) and not actual scum behaviors in a Bastard game is clearly Anti-Town. Not that expect a Non-Town player to actually think from a Town perspective. It is one of the reasons I wanted you dead yesterday.

Now you are starting to sound condescending. Yes, I think about flavor. I think about many things, from many angles, and I believe that is far more pro-town than stubborn tunneling. Sometimes people just play badly, despite not being scum. In this case, I think that the seraph confirmation of Sun and Moon's role is more important than their behavior.

I also note that your refuse to vote either the Cop Guilty or hypo-Seraph guilty and want to free-lance with your vote.

If it was not obvious yet, I believe that Sun and Moon is the miller they claim to be, making your result on them irrelevant. The name counterclaim also makes your alignment suspect, as does the way you've been bullying people to vote Sun and Moon while responding to most counterarguments with scum accusations. That is why I am not voting Sun and Moon.

As I said, there has never been mention from Andrius that Faramina would have an actual cop guilty on Empking. My growing mistrust of you combined with your strong support for Empking to be killed also makes me think it is a bad idea. That is why I am not voting Empking.

My own case on Espeonage though? I think it is solid, and I think it is correct. That is why I am voting Espeonage. There are still six days left, and with any luck I might convince others to join me.

In fact, I would like to hear what Faramina has to say about this. Do they think that Espeonage is any better or worse a suspect than Empking?

[SpyreX]

We've just went all the way to "Vig > Cop therefore MASONZ HOO"

Seriously just pick a direction and go. Today makes me angry.

[Gut]

Unvote, vote: Espeonage

Suffer not the lurkerscum to live!

[Magister Ludi]

What is SpyreX saying in his previous post?

ATTN: TOWN

THE SERAPHS HAVE DECREED THAT EMPKING MUST DIE

Vote: Empking

This has been a public service announcement.

This is the post that is mildly confusing. Stat.

[Magister Ludi]

Vote: 24. AlmasterGM + Thor665

[Herodotus]

@Amrun

, without asking the mod, look at your role PM. Does it contain any sentences that mention Magister Ludi's alignment? Paraphrase those sentences in your own words. Do this in your next post. I will accept no excuses.

Please show a link to where I say ooba / Magister is scum.

I suggest we lynch empking. MoI should die today if he's telling the truth. You can lynch\vig S&M and me if he flips town.

I hope you enjoy bullets / rope then because you are eating it by the end of tomorrow if we don’t lynch Sun and Moon today.

Does this not mean you suspected ooba? Were you just literally responding to his words without your own evaluation?

While you are on that errand I’d like you to explain how the fact that both Amrun and Magister have officially confirmed that they are NOT alignment confirmed means that Magister has to be Town.

I can't explain something that isn't true. Please show a link to where I say ooba / Magister has to be town. I'll help you by pointing you to the closest thing you'll find:

I think I believe ooba, which makes me likely to believe Sun and Moon.
@Ooba: Letting you/Magister direct their kill on a townie isn't good evidence of their being town.
@Sun and Moon: Did you see furcolow's request to be killed? What was your opinion of that, and what was Magister's?

I also note that your refuse to vote either the Cop Guilty or hypo-Seraph guilty and want to free-lance with your vote.

You mention this why?

I could have sworn that you disliked allcaps posting.

Magna, your accusation of IIoA is absurd. Due to the 'I' claimed by Andrius, you, Sunandmoon, and ooba, today is an 'I' day. There are only a few players worth 'A' 'ing right now, and I've been analyzing Sunandmoon. You simply don't like some of my results.

Who do you think is vig

How common are vigs in large games? I'd expect they would be present in almost all larges.

@Magister Ludi: When and how did you learn that sunandmoon was a vig?

[Herodotus]

What is SpyreX saying in his previous post?

1. Vigs being better than cops doesn't make the mason claim more likely to be true.
2. I'm bored and want DEATH TO SOMEONE.

(just translating)

[Magister Ludi]

I learned Sun and Moon was a vig on night one. We had some limited pregame talk, but then Amrun claimed her role to me on night one, without any external pressure., and asked my opinion After that, I offered my input on who was to be vigged.

Herodotus, I would like some of your opinions on Dekes and empking, as well.

[Herodotus]

I think Empking is scum. I previously thought Dekes was town, but haven't reevaluated them since around when I replaced in.

[Magister Ludi]

Do you also think that kanye should be lynched? Also, your thoughts on Dekes will probably go a way to me determining your alignment, so if you could hit me with a few of your thoughts, it would be appreciated.

[Amrun]

Mine is the same as Ludi's - reasonably sure he's the same alignment. I think Ludi is town so it's a distraction to get caught up in this. "Mason, reasonably sure he's the same alignment" is pretty freaking good when combined with actual actions that indicate town.

Let me be clear - I did offer up A LOT MORE CONTROL than I normally would have because of my level of having-not-read-the-game. However, I still did not choose a kill that I disagreed with. Magister suggested several kills that would be good, with his reasons why, and I checked them out through ISO and decided Chrono was fitting his scum meta. It helped me narrow the field a LOT; it gave Ludi a lot more control over the kill than I might have given otherwise.

Also, MoI, it's pretty clear that Chrono wasn't the scumkill, but whatever. Keep your head shoved up your arse if you please.

[Amrun]

Oh, and the one who suggested there must be a vig was YOU, in the post that I responded to with that post.

[Herodotus]

Mine is the same as Ludi's - reasonably sure he's the same alignment. I think Ludi is town so it's a distraction to get caught up in this. "Mason, reasonably sure he's the same alignment" is pretty freaking good when combined with actual actions that indicate town.

Why didn't you say this a long time ago? At first glance, it looks inconsistent with what you said earlier.

Oh, nvm, Gut asked.

I'll ask Plum, though this is silly.

If your role PM says you're reasonably sure he's the same alignment, what is there to ask the mod?

@Magister: I wouldn't vote kanyek any time soon. I'll review Dekes in the near future.

[Amrun]

That's why I didn't want to ask the mod, and likely why the mod didn't answer at all, not even to acknowledge the question.

In hindsight, I should have just said that, but I didn't want to leave any trace of doubt when I didn't feel there was need for one.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Feysal, that theory is all good and well, but why are you not helping us lynch the Seraph-confirmed scumbag Empking?

[Herodotus]

I don't agree with any of the wagons that are up for voting. I don't like how PeregrineV has gotten no heat so far for his scummy posts.

No where in this post does Dekes say what made Pere's posts scummy.
Magna keeps mentioning cognitive dissonance... Dekes later criticizes Pere for not giving reasons for his kanyek vote. And indirectly, Spyrex for not giving reasons for his Pere vote.

Lol, shit. Those reads were added as I read along. They're not actually supposed to be in that post.

If Dekes is scum, this is scum stating in the thread that they intended to withold their reads. WIFOM, but it points to town.

@Dekes: You commented on people calling you town early in the game without evaluation. What is your opinion on the significance of that?

His issue with Empking looks like he was trying to be helpful. I'll be able to say a little more after he answers the question I should have asked earlier:
@Dekes: What were your opinions of Empking's and MagnaOI's alignments at the time? And now?

As I said before, forgetting that he was already voting Pere is null.
@Dekes: Have you taken a look at the Pere voters?

Dekes supported lynching Feysal, which town might want, and scum definitely would want.

I like that in Post 1414 Dekes analyzed Feysal with some solid doubts. (Feysal answered the biggest one, targeting furcolow, to my satisfaction.)

Also, it looks like Wraith weak doctor'd gandalf N1, judging from his posts D2. But eh, I guess, that's not important anymore.

+townpoints

That was indeed shady since ooba has very recent first hand experience with complete lurker(ish) scum teams (Back to the Future Mafia, Battle of Olympus Mafia).

But ooba replaced Ludi, right? I always were pretty fond of him.

This gives me a slight town feel.

@feysal
Is your kill flavor specified in you role pm?

Quoting this because Feysal forgot(?) to answer.

All the Sunandmoon stuff matches my feelings somewhat. In short, either Sunandmoon is scum or they are town who seriously failed with their role information/claim.

@Magna: I think you may need to explain why you nameclaimed today, instead of post-game. The name you claimed makes you likely to be on Feysal's list, marking you for death when he otherwise might have shot someone from a faction opposed to yours.
That makes you even more unlikely to be mafia than you already were, but it adds fuel to the third-party lyncher or cult speculation that is haunting my mind.

[Andrius]

Ok ok we need to sort some crap out.
Faramina confirms that Magister-ooba is indeed Nienor.

We don't have a guilty on Empkarp. Faraday was being rhetorical and pulling a "SERAPHS SAY LYNCH". Mainly to see how Empkarp would react to the guilty on him and people wagoning him up. Mina says she wanted S&M lynched early on. She also feels that MoI is deliberately twisting the facts overblowing his rhetoric like calling anyone who defends S&M scum in order to push the lynch. Though of course he could still be town desperate to survive.

tl;dr: No Seraph Guilties on Empking.

[SpyreX]

IF they could do that again why wouldn't they do it to MoI AND END THIS CHARADE

[Andrius]

Because they thought he was town [?]

I'm going to write my essay now. Be back later.
Its been really dead in the Seraph QT. I think both sides are too busy doing actions to talk to me.
And that makes me sad.

[SpyreX]

Yea and him returning his name would, in fact, mean he was telling the truth about that which could lead to the next and then lol miller vig could die and all would be right with the universe