Cyclic Experimentation Set x02 - [Game Over]

[Magister Ludi]

I know this is not concrete at all, but in my experience I have found scum who are skating by are very quick to be reading and responding to the thread when they are attacked, but not really otherwise. slysly had been pretty lethargically posting until I made an incorrect statement about him, and then was quick to come in and point out how I was wrong. I think I saw it reference once as 'scum damage control'. It doesn't create a read, but it certainly enforces it.

[SlySly]

Their are about 14 people needed to achieve a lynch.

Informing the game that it take 13 instead of 14 to lynch.

I wasn't informing, I was pointing out Bunny's scummy behaviour. If this instance had been where the votes were closer to the needed lynch count, I would have moved my vote.

For instance, set it up with Bunny's "14 to lynch" inference and follow it up with, "Hey, were at 12 votes (L-2), someone put the pressure on and let's get a claim."

------

It was very kind of you to go out of your way to chainsaw defend Bunny.

[Magister Ludi]

Holy cow you are dropping buzzwords like a champ.

Total deflection, check.

[springlullaby]

Prodded not caught up yet.

[SlySly]

I know this is not concrete at all, but in my experience I have found scum who are skating by are very quick to be reading and responding to the thread when they are attacked, but not really otherwise. slysly had been pretty lethargically posting until I made an incorrect statement about him, and then was quick to come in and point out how I was wrong. I think I saw it reference once as 'scum damage control'. It doesn't create a read, but it certainly enforces it.

I have been very busy at work. We were supposed to deliver a site today, but the power outage in the northeast delayed it until tomorrow. You can go look at the site yourself, if it's not the Stars Wars themed site yet, check back tomorrow and you'll see the new one. LEGO Build Together

This is the first night since this game has started that I have actually had time to sit down and read without being extremely crunched for time. I have to do the mobile part of the site this week, so I may time crunched again for the next week but I will do my very best to keep up.

[Kdub]

I'm a little more confidence that Fourseen will flip town. ML has been protecting Fourseen a little too hard. Enough to gain some crediability in the game with his reads on a claimed "bad player" when they flip town.

Wait, what exactly changed? You thought Fourseen was scummy, then suspect he is town because people are defending him? I'm not liking your thought process here because 1) you earlier claimed FS was an "obvious choice" as scum and you haven't indicated anything FS himself has done to change that, 2) scum defending scum is just as (or more) likely than scum defending town for town credit, and 3) my past experience with you does not give me any reason to think you are confident enough in your ability to distinguish between those scenarios to change your read.

Junpei's scum for exactly what other people have already said: he's throwing around scumreads like crazy.

This looks like a retroactive justification of your vote. Why didn't you say anything earlier?

Guys, Furc is probably town. Read his first few posts again and then tell me if you think anybody fakes that mistake

if they had the opportunity to coordinate with scumbuddies before posting.

Third-party is not ruled out, but I can't see him being mafia.

...scum slip?

You sure caught me there. It's not like it's extremely standard for mafia to be able to communicate at the start of the day or anything like that...

If you're going to mention that BTW, what is your opinion of Sly Sly's references to scum daytalk that Ludi pointed out?

[Ghostlin]

All right, then let's talk Junpei. If you want to push discussion in that direction, then you need to spark something, and your case on him seems rather weak, so I'm suspicious. Two people with a lot of votes on them that you find suspicious but you choose not to vote for them and instead pick Junpei. Seems like bussing without voting. And your reasoning for voting him is terrible given your previous two cases on the other. Read roulette? All right, that doesn't cry out scummy to me at all like Fourseen does.
I'm getting a slight town vibe from him myself reading his ISO, and I agree with some of his scumtells such as Diddin and Fourseen.
So, I'd love to hear the case on him, really, because I'm not convinced at the moment and it doesn't even sound like you're that convinced from your weak case.

I mean he's all over the place. Reread my Junpei case on #391 with DGB's scum read of him on #407, then compare that play with Fate here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 54&t=16926 (Square Enix V).

Bluntly, anyone who has so many scum reads at rapid fire is waiting for the first wagon to come along that they can just lynch.

[DrippingGoofball]

Someone asked me why Fourseen is town.

Fourseen's post #304 is a genuine townie reaction to being wagoned.

[Junpei]

Please don't compare me to Fate. Anyone but Fate.

Kdub, I think... well it is not that conclusive, here are my thoughts on it:

1) If he's scum, then he is more than likely scum with Fourseen, and is trying to use the fact that they have daytalk and haven't been using it with Fourseen as a means to clear him.

2) If he's town, then it is very likely he just got confused and thought there was daytalk last game.

This is purely interpretation, just like the "scumslip" I pointed out. But your response is bad enough for me to think that what I pointed out has merit. Furcolow's first post was on page 12. You think that he used a pregame discussed post for 12? You think that pregame that they coached him on what to say on page 12? If scum had pregame talk and no day talk, Furcolow was certainly acting independently if he's scum when he started posting.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@EVERYONE

– Notice that Stringer is attempting to lurk out the attempts to apply pressure to him. Before catching heat he was somewhat active. Now he’s not posting which is a great way to make sure you don’t further incriminate yourself.

MORE STRINGER VOTES PLEASE!!!!

--

His second post "I'm pretty reserved" (bracing us for being sketchy perhaps) tingled my spidey sense, and his first posts were awful, but

then he declined hopping on some pretty easily justifiable wagons.]

So I have him leaning town, but not firmly.

Um please go ISO Stinger again. The bolded part isn’t accurate as he jumped right on Fourseen like it was going out of style shortly after being called out for unvoting Warrior without revoting someone scummy.

Wut?

In all the Large Games we have played together I have NEVER seen you die Night 1. Ever. As Town or Scum. So the inference that you will not be around Day 2 because you will be killed looks to me like an attempt to direct protection to yourself. Not a fan of that sort of behavior.

--

Correction, slysly is not projectmatt. Shit. Hmmmm

So you’ve fired off a clearly incorrect attack. And one that was based completely on undermining the observer as opposed to refuting the observation. And when you realize this your response is ‘Hmmmmmm’ and then to do a sloppy ISO attack?

Your summary of why he is scum - “Lazy vote. Contenless posts, accusations of slips, nonsense, outrageous accusations.

Not backing anything up.

”

The bolded shows Cognitive Dissonance in spades. You just had posted a long rant about how everyone doesn’t have to share reasons when making accusations. Then you use that same behavior as a scum-tell on SlySly.

Accusations of slips is Null. Both scum and Town do that. Town when they see what they perceive to be a slip. Scum to attack Town / bus a Partner. Trying to say otherwise is scummy.

The rest of your reasons are either Null tells (Lazy votes) or subjective opinions (contentless posts, outrageous accusations).

Overall a scumtastic series of posts. Magister you can go swim in the Scum pool.

--

Somewhat suspicious due to the "let's not quicklynch today...wait n/m Vote: FS gogogogo" thing, and the earlier thing with Toog strikes me as a bit off as well. He's below diddin and FS on my suspect list, but he's on the next level down.

So he’s suspicious but you are unlikely to be voting him today? I just want to be sure I understand your position clearly.

--

I agree with the general sentiment that Ghostlin’s catchup where he calls both Fourseen and warrior suspicious but votes Junpei is suspect.

I mean he's all over the place. Reread my Junpei case on #391 with DGB's scum read of him on #407, then compare that play with Fate here: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=16926 (Square Enix V).

Bluntly, anyone who has so many scum reads at rapid fire is waiting for the first wagon to come along that they can just lynch.

This is horrible.

Comparing Junpei to a completely different player in a select game is scummy. Junpei’s playstyle is clearly different than Fate’s. Furthermore you ignore the fact that Fate does that exact same thing as Town. I can pull any number of games to demonstrate. Your tell isn't solid, IMO.

--

That being said, I'm prepared to go to the mat over the idea that defensiveness = scumminess because I've seen it be effective too much not to.

The be prepared for a Battle Royale if you are going to press the “Newb being defensive” is a solid scum-tell. It’s a Newb-tell and is null because it comes from new players of all alignments. A simple look through Newbie games will demonstrate this.

Let the master work her magic and be thankful you're here to witness it.

Buddying up to DGB noted.

I don't like this defense of nopoint out of the blue.

Asking someone to clarify why they are pushing someone as scum isn’t a defense. It’s asking for clarification. A defense would have been along the lines of “Nopoint is Town you have no case and are scummy for pushing on Nopoint without one”.

--

[Stringer Bell]

@ Stringer Bell
You’re not off the hook. Who else do you think is suspicious? You can’t have just gotten ONE PERSON from this entire thread. Nice job hopping onto that wagon gaining steam, by the way.

Scum list:
Fourseen-it seems this wagon is slowly dying, just like all early D1 wagons. Not everyone has jumped off yet, but I just can't see this going to a lynch.
wazzatron-only 6 posts, so not much to go off of, but I hated his reasoning behind his crypto vote in ISO #
Furcolow-

should we claim who we passed to, or used our abilities on?

I used my ability on Crypto. I remember not claiming abilities in terms of what they were/who I passed to until d2
I am assuming town will repeat that, as it was beneficial last game for us

I did have a PR night one, though, as I softclaimed in the previous post

I think these posts were an intentional screwup to seem like a townie who hadn't read the rules. In his mind, he's probably thinking, "No scum would blatantly screw up the rules like this; they'll definitely think I'm town!" I don't like it. Also never answered the question posed by MoI about why he did this. I'd love to see what he could come up with for reasoning.

I'm sad to see Crypto having gone from omgusing to flailing

vote: crypto's replacement

This post screams scum at me too, because DrippingGoofball, who replaced into crypto's spot, had already made TEN posts, including a complete town/scum list on every player in the game. It seems to me that he's just ignoring what DGB had done up to that point.

His next post, 371, basically has a bunch of fluff reasoning based on where DGB put different players in the list. Four of the people he called out for being scumbuddies were because "maybe scumbuddy in the middle of the list". How is that reasoning?

VOTE: Furcolow

[Magister Ludi]

So you’ve fired off a clearly incorrect attack. And one that was based completely on undermining the observer as opposed to refuting the observation. And when you realize this your response is ‘Hmmmmmm’ and then to do a sloppy ISO attack?

Yeah, I mixed up the names when I posted that. Not sure what you mean by 'undermining the observer', as technically thats what all attacks ever in a game of mafia are supposed to do. Attacks are supposed to get other players in the town to view the attacked player as scum. When I attack someone, I am attempting to undermine their town reads with everyone else and insert scum reads (or further scum reads, etc)

Your summary of why he is scum - “Lazy vote. Contenless posts, accusations of slips, nonsense, outrageous accusations. Not backing anything up.”

The bolded shows Cognitive Dissonance in spades. You just had posted a long rant about how everyone doesn’t have to share reasons when making accusations. Then you use that same behavior as a scum-tell on SlySly.

There is a clear difference it what I have said this game. Voting is more important than words, yes. But when you leave a very early vote on someone, promise content and then fail to actually deliver, all the while keeping your vote exactly where it is, I will take object. That is scummy play.

Trying to paint my two valid opinions here as in direct contradiction is a lazy and simplistic thought process.

Accusations of slips is Null. Both scum and Town do that. Town when they see what they perceive to be a slip. Scum to attack Town / bus a Partner. Trying to say otherwise is scummy.

Not at all. I rarely see town accuse other town of inside information. A larger majority, say 66% vs 33%, is scum falsely accusing town of inside information, when in fact they have the inside information. It's something I have noticed in my games playing. How is making that accusation, which I based entirely on my own experience (which is how everyone scumhunts in any way shape or form, from experience), scummy. That is to say, how is what you are accusing me of more likely to come from scum than town?

The rest of your reasons are either Null tells (Lazy votes) or subjective opinions (contentless posts, outrageous accusations).

Things aren't null because you say they are, and Everything is subjective. I'm surprised you're accusing me of this. I find things scummy, I call them out. You find things scummy, you call them out. I happen to think my post had very valid points, and I was quite happy with my isolation of slysly.

Overall a scumtastic series of posts. Magister you can go swim in the Scum pool.

So it's scumtastic because you disagree with it? I'm not sure how you came to this conjecture, and I'm not sure I like it at all, Magna. You've basically take the same thing you have accused me off (being subjective), and applied your own (subjective) tells to it, and called me scummy for it.

[Magister Ludi]

Not to mention, I made valid points against slysly, and he totally ignored it in favor of a non sequitur, accusing me of chainsawing bunny and clarifying how many it is to lynch. No response at all to my points. This looks like he thought

"oh darn, some good points. I'll not respond at all and hope it doesn't gain ground".

I will be interesting to see if slysly accuses you of chainsaw defending as well.

[Kdub]

This is purely interpretation, just like the "scumslip" I pointed out. But your response is bad enough for me to think that what I pointed out has merit. Furcolow's first post was on page 12. You think that he used a pregame discussed post for 12? You think that pregame that they coached him on what to say on page 12? If scum had pregame talk and no day talk, Furcolow was certainly acting independently if he's scum when he started posting.

No. To spell it out clearly, I am saying that if he were scum and had the opportunity to coordinate with his partners, presumably the first thing they would have discussed is how to deal with ability claims and passing strategies. If so, I don't think Furc would have come into the game posting about submitting an action (indicating that he doesn't understand the passing mechanic) unless it was a deliberate gambit to seem like a VI. Having been scum with Furc before, I think it is much more likely he actually made a mistake and tried to submit an action rather than trying some sort of trickery.

In fact...

should we claim who we passed to, or used our abilities on?

I used my ability on Crypto. I remember not claiming abilities in terms of what they were/who I passed to until d2
I am assuming town will repeat that, as it was beneficial last game for us

I did have a PR night one, though, as I softclaimed in the previous post

I think these posts were an intentional screwup to seem like a townie who hadn't read the rules. In his mind, he's probably thinking, "No scum would blatantly screw up the rules like this; they'll definitely think I'm town!" I don't like it. Also never answered the question posed by MoI about why he did this. I'd love to see what he could come up with for reasoning.

^My view is pretty much the exact opposite of this. SB, have you ever played with Furc before?

Somewhat suspicious due to the "let's not quicklynch today...wait n/m Vote: FS gogogogo" thing, and the earlier thing with Toog strikes me as a bit off as well. He's below diddin and FS on my suspect list, but he's on the next level down.

So he’s suspicious but you are unlikely to be voting him today? I just want to be sure I understand your position clearly.

I am unlikely to vote him over FC or diddin right now, but if SB turns out to be the more viable lynch, I won't feel too conflicted about switching my vote to him.

[Stringer Bell]

In fact...

should we claim who we passed to, or used our abilities on?

I used my ability on Crypto. I remember not claiming abilities in terms of what they were/who I passed to until d2
I am assuming town will repeat that, as it was beneficial last game for us

I did have a PR night one, though, as I softclaimed in the previous post

I think these posts were an intentional screwup to seem like a townie who hadn't read the rules. In his mind, he's probably thinking, "No scum would blatantly screw up the rules like this; they'll definitely think I'm town!" I don't like it. Also never answered the question posed by MoI about why he did this. I'd love to see what he could come up with for reasoning.

^My view is pretty much the exact opposite of this. SB, have you ever played with Furc before?

I haven't. Is this something he does on a regular basis, whether he's scum or town? Anyone who has played with him can answer that, not just kdub.

[Kdub]

I don't know if he's done this exact thing before, but the mistake in general does not surprise me.

[SlySly]

Not to mention, I made valid points against slysly, and he totally ignored it in favor of a non sequitur, accusing me of chainsawing bunny and clarifying how many it is to lynch. No response at all to my points. This looks like he thought

"oh darn, some good points. I'll not respond at all and hope it doesn't gain ground".

I will be interesting to see if slysly accuses you of chainsaw defending as well.

No, you falsely accused me of BS. Then you said, oops, I meant projectmatt. There were no points to address, what you accused me of was 100% false.

[projectmatt]

@ Stringer Bell
You’re not off the hook. Who else do you think is suspicious? You can’t have just gotten ONE PERSON from this entire thread. Nice job hopping onto that wagon gaining steam, by the way.

Scum list:
Fourseen-it seems this wagon is slowly dying, just like all early D1 wagons. Not everyone has jumped off yet, but I just can't see this going to a lynch.

Just a wait a second here, Stringer. You don't say why Fourseen is scum, but instead you comment on "that his wagon has died down like most d1 wagons and you can't see a lynch happening". What in that makes him scum? Is it the fact that the wagon HAS died down, is it the fact that he's made bad posts? Please explain your scum read on Fourseen more in depth.

quote="In post 429 , SlySly"]

I know this is not concrete at all, but in my experience I have found scum who are skating by are very quick to be reading and responding to the thread when they are attacked, but not really otherwise. slysly had been pretty lethargically posting until I made an incorrect statement about him, and then was quick to come in and point out how I was wrong. I think I saw it reference once as 'scum damage control'. It doesn't create a read, but it certainly enforces it.

I have been very busy at work. We were supposed to deliver a site today, but the power outage in the northeast delayed it until tomorrow.

You can go look at the site yourself, if it's not the Stars Wars themed site yet, check back tomorrow and you'll see the new one. LEGO Build Together

[/quote]

I find it bizarre that you're insanely concerned about proving that you are very busy that you feel the need to link to the website where you are doing work.

Junpei's scum for exactly what other people have already said: he's throwing around scumreads like crazy.

WAIT, WAIT. Diddin in the first few pages of the entire game you had three "scum" and were "throwing out fos's like crazy" as well, but even if you weren't, why the hell is throwing out suspicion something

bad?

Explain to me your train of thought, Diddin. Don't quote what other people said, explain to me in your own words.

[Magister Ludi]

Not to mention, I made valid points against slysly, and he totally ignored it in favor of a non sequitur, accusing me of chainsawing bunny and clarifying how many it is to lynch. No response at all to my points. This looks like he thought

"oh darn, some good points. I'll not respond at all and hope it doesn't gain ground".

I will be interesting to see if slysly accuses you of chainsaw defending as well.

No, you falsely accused me of BS. Then you said, oops, I meant projectmatt. There were no points to address, what you accused me of was 100% false.

I had an entire area post, at the end of the previous page. Not sure what you're talking about here. Post 424

[Stringer Bell]

@ Stringer Bell
You’re not off the hook. Who else do you think is suspicious? You can’t have just gotten ONE PERSON from this entire thread. Nice job hopping onto that wagon gaining steam, by the way.

Scum list:
Fourseen-it seems this wagon is slowly dying, just like all early D1 wagons. Not everyone has jumped off yet, but I just can't see this going to a lynch.

Just a wait a second here, Stringer. You don't say why Fourseen is scum, but instead you comment on "that his wagon has died down like most d1 wagons and you can't see a lynch happening". What in that makes him scum? Is it the fact that the wagon HAS died down, is it the fact that he's made bad posts? Please explain your scum read on Fourseen more in depth.

I've had a scum read on Fourseen since his crypto vote/unvote (ISO #2 and #4). Like I said before, that's about as blatant as it gets. A little pressure, and he backs off? That screams scum to me. I still believe he's scum, but his wagon is dying down and it seems like his lynch isn't going to happen today. Therefore, I voted a different suspect, Furcolow.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Stringer

– Please elaborate on why Fourseen was scum to you in the first place. You’ve never given specific reasons, only generalizations.

--

Yeah, I mixed up the names when I posted that. Not sure what you mean by 'undermining the observer', as technically thats what all attacks ever in a game of mafia are supposed to do. Attacks are supposed to get other players in the town to view the attacked player as scum. When I attack someone, I am attempting to undermine their town reads with everyone else and insert scum reads (or further scum reads, etc)

No, that’s incorrect. You didn’t address the issue at hand (and finally did after I brought this point up) but instead incorrectly tried to say Slysly was scummy because he’d been sheeping you all day and changed 180 degrees. Which was false. Attacking the player and not the argument is a scum tactic. It demonstrates you can’t successfully refute what was stated and instead go the ‘demonization’ route. Town has no reason to do this. There is scum motivation in that sort of play.

There is a clear difference it what I have said this game. Voting is more important than words, yes. But when you leave a very early vote on someone, promise content and then fail to actually deliver, all the while keeping your vote exactly where it is, I will take object. That is scummy play.

We disagree. I don’t see an early vote left on Junpei not supported by content in Slysly’s ISO. What you've listed as scum-tells I don't see credible scum intent in. Also you've dropped generic, inflammatory phrases like 'outrageous accustations' which I don't see as credible.

Trying to paint my two valid opinions here as in direct contradiction is a lazy and simplistic thought process.

More rhetoric. Useless for Town, goldmine for scum.

Not at all. I rarely see town accuse other town of inside information. A larger majority, say 66% vs 33%, is scum falsely accusing town of inside information, when in fact they have the inside information. It's something I have noticed in my games playing. How is making that accusation, which I based entirely on my own experience (which is how everyone scumhunts in any way shape or form, from experience), scummy. That is to say, how is what you are accusing me of more likely to come from scum than town?

Where did you magically get the 66% to 33% stats from. Seems to me you’ve just grabbed numbers to support your argument. What if I say that I see Town accuse other Town of 'inside information' much more than scum accusing Town or scum. Is my personal experience not valid for my scum hunting?

Your play is scummy for all the elements I’ve already described.

You made a scummy attack (not arguing facts but trying to discredit the person) using incorrect facts (attributing his play to Matt).

You used a series of Null / inaccurate tells (IMO) in crafting your ‘read’ on Slysly.

What I see is basically OMGUS – Slysly calls you out and suddenly he was scum that was hiding in plain site. In fact the level of response from you is pretty out of scale considering the initial statement.

Things aren't null because you say they are, and Everything is subjective. I'm surprised you're accusing me of this.

I find things scummy, I call them out.

You find things scummy, you call them out. I happen to think my post had very valid points, and I was quite happy with my isolation of slysly.

And I’m very happy with my analysis of your posts and my conclusion on your scumminess for making them. I’m doing exactly the bolded – finding things I see as scummy and pointing them out.

--

I haven't. Is this something he does on a regular basis, whether he's scum or town? Anyone who has played with him can answer that, not just kdub.

In Stars Aligned 3 as Town he basically took a mis-reading of the rules and tried to say it justified him being (wrongly, mind you) confirmed Town. Very similar demonstration of him not paying attention / making bad decisions.

I don’t recall him making mechanical mistakes in Bold and Beautiful Mafia but would have to review to be sure.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I've had a scum read on Fourseen since his crypto vote/unvote (ISO #2 and #4). Like I said before, that's about as blatant as it gets. A little pressure, and he backs off? That screams scum to me. I still believe he's scum, but his wagon is dying down and it seems like his lynch isn't going to happen today. Therefore, I voted a different suspect, Furcolow.

Ok, let me get this straight ...

Someone who changes their stance radically due to a little pressure is scum?

Like yourself who unvoted on the basis of speed of the wagon on Warrior, didn't revote, got suspicon for it, and suddenly found an even faster wagon to vote for?

I agree ...

MORE STRINGER VOTES PLEASE!!!

[Ghostlin]

So...MoI, you're saying it's OK behavior for someone to have eight to ten running scumreads at once, versus you know, five or six intelligent scum reads? Because the first is bluntly what I'm accusing Junpei of. If that's true, then you and I have different definitions of scummy behavior.

I agree with you on ML, however.

[Ghostlin]

Got prodded.
Keeping up with the thread, but anything I would say, has been said already.

Unvote, Vote: ML

I'm a little more confidence that Fourseen will flip town. ML has been protecting Fourseen a little too hard. Enough to gain some crediability in the game with his reads on a claimed "bad player" when they flip town.

So you're saying when Four flips town, ML will reap free town cred? You've been in this game in a while, do you have anything else to add to the case?

[Junpei]

Kdub; lets say that Furclow is i) prone to make that mistake as town ii) not likely to come up with that plan as scum. Isn't it still very realistic to think that maybe another one of the scum members told Furclow to at some point do that? I hadn't thought of that at first, but if they know his meta, they could suggest it.

Ghostlin, I'm sorry if I find more 2-4 more people scummy in a large theme game than you would like, but that's just what it is, also I don't have 10 scum reads, so not sure what you're going on about.

As for "this is null tell!" "no, it's a scum tell!"

This is how you decide: does intuition tell you that scum would do this more than ideal town? If not, then it's not a scum tell. I can't comment on "flimsy votes" because the adjective 'flimsy' has no basis in my view. I don't know what post you guys are talking about, please link to posts (don't quote it... that just makes a big wall, link it using [url] tags).