The Children of Húrin Mafia (GREAT REVIVAL)

[Gut]

ANDRIUS.

I GLANCED THROUGH YOU"R POSTS TO SEE IF YOU WERE TOWN. YOU ARE.

DON'T DECEIVE ME. DON'T BREAK MY HEART.

Elli's replacement?

[Magister Ludi]

Gut, I'd rather lynch mockingjay, who i'm more certain is scum. Have you read her posts?

And magna, I thought the 'suicidal' part was the activation part, not the 'cop'.

[Gut]

Personally I'm mostly indifferent between Elli and Mockingjay, not because I don't feel strongly about either but because I feel strongly that both are mafia. I do slightly lean more towards Elli though, and CES appears to very much lean in that direction.

[Nachomamma8]

To be honest? I didn't look at the role pm yesterday, no. Most of yesterday (game day) I was posting from my phone and that's a pain in the ass. I knew I was Turin and vig. I think I once took a quick look to make sure I didn't have a surname in it (I don't), but I was in a hurry at the time. I totally glanced over that if I kill town something bad definitely happens. It was in the "active" part of my role, which I guess I glazed over since "active" for vig is pretty obvious. In my role name, it's called "Descending" and that didn't immediately register any bells.

I can't remember if I said I was compulsive before or not; if I didn't, I meant to, and I just wanted to make sure the information got out there in case I didn't. I knew I was compulsive, but to be honest, it was 100% at the back of my mind.

Also, I can't replace out as Amrun because CSL still wants to participate. (I tried to do this already, actually.) He posts in our hydra every once in awhile, and last night he posted in the neighbor qt... I can't get him to post here, idk.

But I post a lot on the go and from my phone, and switching accounts isn't facilitated there. Not posting except from the hydra account was one of the things that kept me from posting before... I would think, "When I get home to a computer, I'll read/post" and that never, ever happened.ugh

I do apologize for that, though. I'm pretty much not doing hydras anymore except special circumstances when I can be more certain of motivation-to-post-in-hydra and partner-post-rate.

Also, I definitely have some reading to do before understanding what exactly is going on, but any vig who somehow doesn't know that her shots might do something bad if they hit town, and yet is compulsive, and also isn't active because her hydra partner won't post here but refuses to replace out because he wants to participate but won't... all of it sounds pretty fucking deserving of a vote.

[Amrun]

Well I shot scum so.

Whatever.

Read the game and then tell me what you think.

[Plum]

VOTE COUNT #4.1

Nachomamma8 - 2 - Herodotus, Gut
Feysal -

3

- Empking, Andrius, Mastermind of Sin
mockingjaye - 2 - kanyeknowsbest, Magister Ludi
kanyeknowsbest - 2 - Regfan, mockingjaye

Not Voting (5): Sun and Moon, Nachomamma8, Furcolow, Feysal, MagnaofIllusion

With 14 alive it will take 8 votes to lynch.

Nachomamma8 replaces Ellibereth.

Deadline for Day 4 will be in approximately (but no less than) 13 days and will be exactly determined soon.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So if you're truly worried about preventing the game from ending today and you're not just blowing smoke, you should be voting Feysal.

To put it simply, a scum lynch is a lot more powerful than a SK lynch in a larger game like this if the SK is willing to assist us in shooting and lynching scum. If we had a lot less players alive or this was a mini of some form I'd completely understand and be all for lynching Feysal right now but we can use him to shoot a predetermined pool effectively using him as a tool against the mafia and help dwindle down potential suspects. So MoS, who's scum?

Oh and Andrius, you need to yell at Faraday enough to get a complete reads list from him.

I still like Ellibereth and mockingjaye from before this whole MoI/S&M fiasco (and the Empking gambit) started yesterday.

MoI, if you don't mind I'd like to hear your current reads without VCAs impact on them. I really don't believe VCA is as powerful a tool as everyone seems to be making it out to be and is incredibly overused.

If you don't believe VCA is a powerful tool, you should read Prozac's Theme 3.

I don't see why we're suffering confirmed scum to live who did not play to his supposed wincon that we specifically left him alive to fulfill and get him out of our way, instead killing a town protective role.

Would you prefer that I had killed or tried to kill a town vigilante instead, which is what I believe Amrun is?

I would prefer that you are dead. Failing that and you not taking the chance to leave this game and have us be rid of you once and for all, I would prefer that you not kill at all, since you are only hurting the town by repeatedly killing us.

Alright, really need some explanations here. Feysal is lynch #1, S&M is lynch #2. Feysal has absolutely NO reason to kill someone other than the person who gives him a win and removes him from the game. Which means that he was lying to us about his win condition from the beginning (which doesn't surprise me). S&M's SpyreX kill stinks, SpyreX was fairly obviously town. I still think it's hella suspicious that S&M has claimed 3 kills so far, and as of yet we have no evidence of a mafia kill. I half suspect that they claimed the failed kill on Espy/Smarg in order to supposedly account for a mafia kill Night 2 and to make them look good when/if their scumbuddy died. Right now, though, I'm more worried about Feysal. I'd also like to hear from MoI about why he isn't dead. Suicide cop failing to get his guilty result lynched and then surviving the day? WTF is that shit?

tl;dr - Feysal, S&M, and MoI are all still hella scummy and have some explaining to do.

Even before the VC Analysis pointed me in his direction this post STUNK as from scum.

1. Multiple mistakes in facts (Lack of Mafia kill, ignoring the shut off of my latent ability) used to take stance
2. Pushing three solidly potential dangers to Mafia (Serial Killer, Proven non-Mafia killer, possible Cop) as the top suspects for the day and completely ignoring the fact that Smargaret flipped scum, and Bulletproof scum at that.

Scummy.

1) You do realize how ridiculous it sounds for YOU of all people to say it's scummy to want Feysal dead, right?
2) See above, but replace Feysal with S&M
3) I expected the conflicting claims to be resolved by today (due to scum/Feysal kills), but they were not so I still do not trust any of you. I never saw you say anything about being deactivated.
4) You think I'm scum for making a mistake about the mafia kill and other facts declared in thread? ...what?
5) How in the hell do you think I'm ignoring smarg being scum? I was one of the people pushing that fucking wagon yesterday, and in the very post you quoted to say I was scum, I address smarg being bulletproof. Here, let me quote it for you since you clearly didn't see it the first several times around:

I half suspect that they claimed the failed kill on Espy/Smarg in order to supposedly account for a mafia kill Night 2 and to make them look good when/if their scumbuddy died.

OOOOOOOH MoI is making mistakes in facts, he must be scum!

[Regfan]

MoI, you're right, I expected there to be more to gain in terms of working out night-kills but there's actually not that much. At the same time though there's an incredible amount of protective roles in the graveyard at the moment and a severe lack of investigative ones with the exception of the weak doctor so I'd bank on there being useful and relevant results coming from a mass-claim.

MoS, I don't think VCA is strong because I know for a fact that it's easily beatable as scum and have seen many cases where there was no scum at all on a town lynch on multiple days or multiple scum on a scum lynch.

I plan on spending tomorrow focusing on ISOing and reading much more deeply into Elibereth and Herodtous.

[kanyeknowsbest]

vca isnt something to take as gospel, but when the vca lines up with your suspicions and other evidence, its certainly something to take into consideration.

[kanyeknowsbest]

yo but real chat lets lynch mockingjaye.

[kanyeknowsbest]

To be honest? I didn't look at the role pm yesterday, no. Most of yesterday (game day) I was posting from my phone and that's a pain in the ass. I knew I was Turin and vig. I think I once took a quick look to make sure I didn't have a surname in it (I don't), but I was in a hurry at the time. I totally glanced over that if I kill town something bad definitely happens. It was in the "active" part of my role, which I guess I glazed over since "active" for vig is pretty obvious. In my role name, it's called "Descending" and that didn't immediately register any bells.

I can't remember if I said I was compulsive before or not; if I didn't, I meant to, and I just wanted to make sure the information got out there in case I didn't. I knew I was compulsive, but to be honest, it was 100% at the back of my mind.

Also, I can't replace out as Amrun because CSL still wants to participate. (I tried to do this already, actually.) He posts in our hydra every once in awhile, and last night he posted in the neighbor qt... I can't get him to post here, idk.

But I post a lot on the go and from my phone, and switching accounts isn't facilitated there. Not posting except from the hydra account was one of the things that kept me from posting before... I would think, "When I get home to a computer, I'll read/post" and that never, ever happened.ugh

I do apologize for that, though. I'm pretty much not doing hydras anymore except special circumstances when I can be more certain of motivation-to-post-in-hydra and partner-post-rate.

Also, I definitely have some reading to do before understanding what exactly is going on, but any vig who somehow doesn't know that her shots might do something bad if they hit town, and yet is compulsive, and also isn't active because her hydra partner won't post here but refuses to replace out because he wants to participate but won't... all of it sounds pretty fucking deserving of a vote.

yes welcome to the fiasco that was yesterday but amrun is town despite playing a terrible game.

[Furcolow]

vote: kanye

[MagnaofIllusion]

vote: kanye

What happened to your 'I may have confirmed scum' info you said was forthcoming?

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoI, you're right, I expected there to be more to gain in terms of working out night-kills but there's actually not that much. At the same time though there's an incredible amount of protective roles in the graveyard at the moment and a severe lack of investigative ones with the exception of the weak doctor so I'd bank on there being useful and relevant results coming from a mass-claim.

MoS, I don't think VCA is strong because I know for a fact that it's easily beatable as scum and have seen many cases where there was no scum at all on a town lynch on multiple days or multiple scum on a scum lynch.

I plan on spending tomorrow focusing on ISOing and reading much more deeply into Elibereth and Herodtous.

Well, VCA is useful. Sticking to the standard assumptions about scum behavior is not.

[Furcolow]

I'm a survivor
I'm not going to piss them off

[Regfan]

So you'd rather reveal you have alternate information and expect us not to threaten or actually lynch or shoot you if you don't out it?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm a survivor
I'm not going to piss them off

Ok, so we definitely need to have you shot at Night or lynched soon since you are taking a clearly Pro-Scum stance. Noted.

--

And magna, I thought the 'suicidal' part was the activation part, not the 'cop'.

Really? That doesn’t make much sense given the following –

1. Minaday specifically requested any Negative Boons be claimed immediately in thread. Had someone appended Suicidal to a Cop role don’t you think I would have claimed it per those instructions?
2. Minaday were not happy that I claimed the activation immediately yesterday as revealing it gave AGM/Thor more info. Why would they have cared if it was a negative ability?
3. I specifically said yesterday that the Suicide Cop was my latent ability and that I have not claimed any other parts of my role to date.

--

MoS, I don't think VCA is strong because I know for a fact that it's easily beatable as scum and have seen many cases where there was no scum at all on a town lynch on multiple days or multiple scum on a scum lynch.

Support your ‘easily beaten by scum’ stance with support of failing VCA. My VCA doesn’t rely on individual wagons, but the totality of the player’s votes. Scum may avoid one specific wagon but overall their behavior is going to be telling.

--

1) You do realize how ridiculous it sounds for YOU of all people to say it's scummy to want Feysal dead, right?

Classic strawman right here. The point is not that you want Feysal dead. The point is that you want EVERY known possible Anti-Mafia power dead. Scummy to try to avoid the point. More on this in point 2.

2) See above, but replace Feysal with S&M

.

So you still S&M are Mafia now? After the claimed shot, the flip of smarg, and the fact that we had 3 full kill flavors yesterday there is no chance that Sun and Moon are Mafia with smarg.

Are you suggesting that my stance yesterday knowing what I did know and not knowing those facts shouldn’t change coming into today?

Again ...way to strawman.

3) I expected the conflicting claims to be resolved by today (due to scum/Feysal kills), but they were not so I still do not trust any of you. I never saw you say anything about being deactivated.

So you didn’t take the Town confirmed Seraph’s words that they were going to do it at face value? Still in the “People are lying about what the Seraphs say” stance that made no sense before?

4) You think I'm scum for making a mistake about the mafia kill and other facts declared in thread? ...what?

You are scum for immediately pushing today on the strongerst Anti-mafia remaining powers in the game and using fraudulent facts to support your reasoning. Pretty clear. You have reading comprehension skill issues?

5) How in the hell do you think I'm ignoring smarg being scum? I was one of the people pushing that fucking wagon yesterday, and in the very post you quoted to say I was scum, I address smarg being bulletproof. Here, let me quote it for you since you clearly didn't see it the first several times around:

That quote really doesn’t say anything other than you suspected that Sun and Moon lied to cover up them making a Mafia kill yesterday. Which today’s flips and subsequent claims make cleary incorrect.

How does that quote in any way show how you were ‘pushing’ on Smarg / Esp?

Don’t worry, I’m going to go back and look at your Esp / Smarg interactions so I’ll see how your ‘push’ went.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Espeonage / Smargaret intereactions with Herod / LC, Elli, Mockingjaye, MoS

--

First – what Esp had to say

:

First vote is for Furc. Esp avoids RVS entirely. He pushes early on Gandalf and Kayne.

Lulz ISO 19 – I was clearly right about his ‘Why Me’ post about me misreading him.

First interaction directly is ISO 38 where he agrees with Elli re: dismissing WoW’s assertion that Herod had a scummy role due to extended Night as laughable.

ISO 40 – argues with MoS on ‘jester’ GD material … soft, fluffy interaction.

That’s it. Minimal interaction with all top four suspect and never a bit of any indication that any of the were scummy in any way.

Now on to Smarg

:

ISO 1 – Pushes that only S&M or I should be the lynch. Asks MoS why he is voting Elli when it should be 1v1.

Nothing else at all regarding those four.

--

MoS

:

ISO 5 – Fluff mention of “Espy” (I’m assuming Espeonage) in regards to not seeing him on LoL.

I’ll mention as I re-read this ISO the Jester speculation with Gandalf was horrible (which I pointed out earlier) and was an easy way for MoS to actively post while not scum-hunting.

Same with the “I don’t trust MoI’s Seraph information” stance. It looks particularly crafted to appear properly having Town paranoia while not doing anything to scum-hunt.

I forget who convinced me that you weren’t scum after Day 1. I’ll have to look because to ISO 47 you are exhibiting textbook “Active Lurking / No Scumhunting” play.

ISO 52 – Assesses bad votes on Kanye. Gives the following order of suspect votes:

In order of scumminess, I'm thinking Ellibereth > Wraith > Mockingjaye, although it's close enough that I could see switching the first two.

Subsequently votes for Elli in that post.

ISO 61 – Long response to Mockingjaye that can be summarized as “I feel better about you as Town now”

ISO 65 – First game mention Espeonage. Color codes him as ‘Null’.

In case I'm dead tomorrow, let it be known that the following need to be lynched:

Wraith
Mockingjaye

Also, look strongly into the people that wagon-hopped between Kanye and VitR today.

Suddenly Mockingjaye is scum who needs to die. No direct interaction with her since calling her Town in 61.

In ISO 83 he says that he feels ‘better’ about MJ than Wraith (look, Town) but her focus on Kayne is ‘disconcerting’.

ISO 84 – Gives an ordered Feysal kill list of Gandalf, Wraith, Mockingjaye

ISO 88 – Gives Herod Town Points.

I wanted to bring up the following non-interaction point from ISO 92 –

I think SpyreX already hammered.

Here he is ‘expressing sadness’ that Town Spyrex might have hammered Sun and Moon (which clearly he didn’t) when he was on said wagon himself. Scummy.

This isn't the only game Espy is lurking in, fyi.

I'm hoping he gets replaced, though.

Elli is a hypocrit.

Says Espy lurking isn’t a scum-tell and expressed he hoped for a replacement. This is in response to Elli calling Espeonage lurking scum.

ISO 111 is where he votes Smarg yesterday. In context – 72 pages into the game is the first time he calls that slot scum at all. And based on Smargaret’s replace in post suddenly the slot is “LYNCHLYNCHLYNCH” worthy. Interestingly Sun and Moon was at L-2 and here are the further posts he makes regarding the slot

Oooooor...we lynch Smargscum.

Wowscum.

WEAK

MoS Take – Smarg was very likely a bus in my opinion. Not a single interaction with Espy the entire game despite the many times I and others had been calling that slot scum. He sees Smarg make a horrible post that is guaranteed to get rope and gets on early.

Other interactions make me feel better about Elli (actual votes and attacking Elli as lurkerscum when Elli was after Esp) and worse about Mockingjaye(suspcion of slot end of Day 2 that disappears Day 3 to never be seen again).

[MagnaofIllusion]

Now onto Mockingjaye

–

ISO 3 –

Regarding Espeonage, I don't like the early Furc vote in a post where he talks about several other people and not Furc himself; he also doesn't mention Furc in preceding or subsequent posts. He then votes Gandalf instead despite claiming that he didn't think Gandalf was scum a few posts before that; the only reason for the change was that Furc was "entertaining" and "could be the day two lynch" instead. He then sets about justifying Kanye's vote on Gandalf but not his own.

ISO 6 –

In case you need a prompt to help you along, try this one: what do you think of Espeonage, Feysal, Empking, Andrius, Spy, and MoI?

Peppers Esp on a list of people for Kayne to asesss.

Soft interaction with MoS in ISO 12 and 13.

ISO 13 – Gives the following kill list for Feysal:

If Feysal kills tonight, my top choices are Espeonage and Empking, and my third choice would be S&M.

ISO 18 –

I'm not voting yet because I still want more discussion and I want some of my questions addressed. Aside from the conundrum we have to deal with today, KKB, Empking, and Espeonage are still my top three scum-picks. Aside from ALL of that, the tone of the game is becoming very negative and I would like to see it scaled back some.

Mockingjaye votes Smarg in ISO 20.

My thoughts – I really get the sense that the Espeonage commentary was distancing. Note that in the entire game she only directly comments on Esp’s being scummy early (ISO 3). The rest is listing him as possible scum (ISO 18) while not bothering to follow up on it at all or listing the BP player on a Feysal kill list.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Now on to Elli

–

Votes for the Lord Chronos / Herod slot at ISO 3. Likely RVS.

Lots of advocation of lurking lynching from the slot while generally lurking.

Never actually backs support of Esp as lurker scum with a vote.

Thoughts – Meh. No interactions at all. Have to go look at Elli scum games to see if he would call a partner scum but not actually vote for them. The only thing holding me back from saying lurkerscum is the repeated "Why isn't MoI calling me scum" statements. You don't see that generally from scum.

--

Finally Herod / LC

–

LC first

:

ISO 0 - RVS for Andrius

ISO 3 – Questions Esp about his stance :Re Gandalf and how Esp’s belief of Andy’s role affected said read.

Nothing else significant before replace-out.

Herodotus:

likely scum
VitaminR
Empking
MOS

Kanyek, maybe? I don't have a big scum read on him, but I'd be willing to sheep onto a wagon.

Not sure about Espeonage. I think he's just playing poorly.

Calls MoS scum and gives Esp the ‘bad play’ pass.

ISO 8 – Questions MoS about his ‘Lynch Feysal’ stance in regard to scum-hunting.

That does nothing but give Espeonage a reason to lurk.

Feysal is making himself useful beyond what I'd expect, which makes me more inclined than I already was to keep him around, as long as he only kills either scummy players or scum (not always the same thing).

Gandalf claims to have become town, but he was active before that, and started lurking after. He's on my scumlist now. Gandalf, whom are you voting, and why?

Good Feysal targets if they aren't lynched: VitaminR, Gandalf
Second tier: Espeonage, Sunandmoon, Empking

Identifies Esp as a lurker and puts him in the lurker Tier of N2 shot list.

Given VitaminR and gandalf's flips, I'm going to sheep for now.

VOTE: Espeonage, mostly based on ooba's request yesterday.

ISO 45 – Calls Esp possible lurker-scum in debate with Elli, vote previously moved to Furc.

ISO 53 – Discusses Furc’s stance on Esp scum and suggests he might join the wagon.

ISO 55 – Votes smarg

ISO 62 – Argues with me that the Neighborizor claim from Smarg is more likely to come from Town.

Thoughts – Feel a lot better about LC’s limited interaction with Esp than Herod’s. I’d slot him as possible scum but less likely than either Mockingjaye or MoS.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Mockingjaye.

I'd also easily support a MoS wagon. Currenly Mockingjaye has more support. I can also see the argument for lynching Feysal to reduce body-count at Night since he's clearly not going to support Town's goals of elminating the Mafia.

Will look at selected Elli-scum Large games to refresh my meta on him.

[Regfan]

Support your ‘easily beaten by scum’ stance with support of failing VCA. My VCA doesn’t rely on individual wagons, but the totality of the player’s votes. Scum may avoid one specific wagon but overall their behavior is going to be telling.

Willingly, it occurred noticiably in Invictus mafia, the VCA was done by scum yes, but it was overseen by you therefore it's not invalidated in any way. The results of it are below with the scum bolded, now tell me that VCA is still a strong tool after seeing that.

113 Zachrulez
113 Fate
85 Gammagooey
73 Nautilius
73 Tarhalindur
73 VitaminR
73 Gut

68 Ban
40 Duplicity
40 Benmage

40 MagnaofIllusion
40 The Illuminati

[Herodotus]

That said how did you distill the bolded from my post? That%u2019s not what I said at all. Difficutly reading? I notice you specifically avoid mentioning yourself or MoS who are also Top picks form the MoIputer.

You said you were going to do some reading, and if you do, that should lead you to conclude that MoS and I are town(emphasis on should), leaving Elib and mockingjaye. So, it's a roundabout way to arrive at the conclusion that there is very likely one scum among (Elli and Mockingjaye).
You were supposedly looking for scum based on who was on each lynch wagon. But your playerslot and mine have been on the same lynch wagons so far, so by your own measurement, our scores would be identical.
You removed Sun and Moon post-analysis. Have you decided they are town? The wagon on them is just as good a place to look for scum as a lynch wagon.

town lynches

PeregrineV

- 12 - Dekes,

Feysal

, Empking,

SpyreX

, Gut, kanyeknowsbest, Magister Ludi,

VitaminR

,

Furcolow

, Andrius,

Espeonage

,

gandalf5166

VitaminR

- 10 - Herodotus, Gut, Empking,

Furcolow

, ooba, kanyeknowsbest, MagnaofIllusion,

Wraith

, Andrius,

Feysal

from skimming the votecounts, the sunandmoon wagon

Empking, MagnaofIllusion, Ellibereth, Andrius,

SpyreX

,

furcolow

, kanyeknowsbest

scum lynch

smargaret - 9 - Herodotus, kanyeknowsbest, Mastermind of Sin, Sun and Moon,

Furcolow

, Gut, Magister Ludi, mockingjaye, MagnaofIllusion

Confirmed that everyone alive appears at least once above.

Empking and Andrius have been on all of the townlynch/sunandmoon wagons and were not on the scumlynch wagon.

Every time someone calls Andrius town, I lose some respect for them. So far only regfan has stated a logically valid reason, and that was speculative.

UNVOTE:

[MagnaofIllusion]

Willingly, it occurred noticiably in Invictus mafia, the VCA was done by scum yes, but it was overseen by you therefore it's not invalidated in any way. The results of it are below with the scum bolded, now tell me that VCA is still a strong tool after seeing that.

The fact that it was prepared by scum means your point isn't valid. Of course scum are going to fashion a VCA that gives results that are misleading. Your stance that "it was overseen by you" isn't really meaningful. I was not 'in control' of the decisions DGB made in how she weighted particular wagons or whatnot.

If you think I am scum doing the VCA you are welcome to question my methodology or ignore / discount my results. That's your choice. It doesn't impact how I go about my game in either case.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You said you were going to do some reading, and if you do, that should lead you to conclude that MoS and I are town(emphasis on should), leaving Elib and mockingjaye. So, it's a roundabout way to arrive at the conclusion that there is very likely one scum among (Elli and Mockingjaye).

I’ve done those readings and posted my thoughts in thread. Clearly you can judge that I disagree completely that MoS is Town, and that furthermore I’m not sold on you 100% either.

You were supposedly looking for scum based on who was on each lynch wagon. But your playerslot and mine have been on the same lynch wagons so far, so by your own measurement, our scores would be identical.

Of course. Difference being I know my own alignment as Town. I have no way to know your alignment. Don’t like my conclusion? Do your own VCA from your point of view.

You removed Sun and Moon post-analysis. Have you decided they are town? The wagon on them is just as good a place to look for scum as a lynch wagon.

I’ve decided that Sun and Moon can’t be scum partners with Smarg. My VCA was driven by looking for partners not possible Third party. Additionally my methodology for the MoIputer doesn’t look at intermediary wagons because I don’t want to spend all day processing what is an assist function to scum-hunting.

I don’t disagree that significant mid-day wagons are a good place to look for scum. For example Kayne already demonstrated that Mockingjaye had good likelihood of being scum based on the wagon he presented.

Confirmed that everyone alive appears at least once above.

That’s great. Your point?

Empking and Andrius have been on all of the townlynch/sunandmoon wagons and were not on the scumlynch wagon.

Every time someone calls Andrius town, I lose some respect for them. So far only regfan has stated a logically valid reason, and that was speculative.

Again … that’s great. Is your point both are scum? Because while both are currently second tier MoIputer outputs that doesn’t mean they are Town.