The Children of Húrin Mafia (GREAT REVIVAL)

[Herodotus]

Andrius, will you be telling us whether you have a role, or will you not be telling us today?



Empking's recent posting.

[Magister Ludi]

Yeah, nacho replaced elli? We need to get rid of him soon too.

[Empking]

Of course I don't think S&M are mafia anymore. Once I found out that we had enough information to discount that possibility, I no longer felt that S&M was a proper lynch. How did you miss that?

To be fair, I'm pretty sure you didn't actually say that, you just responded with "oops".

On Feysal:
I feel safe assuming Feysal was telling the truth about his WC and abilities.
I also think it's clear that Feysal tried to kill Sunandmoon, and will try again tonight if he is still alive. Some may disagree, but be reasonable: killing them would probably fulfill his win condition.

On Day 2, I wanted to leave Feysal alive for two reasons. One was that he might kill scum, and the other was that scum might kill him. He was a threat to them as long as he wasn't aiming specifically at town. Now he's aiming specifically at Sunandmoon (or maybe Magna, but I'm assuming Sunandmoon), and Sun is town.

We have 2 options:
Lynch Feysal
Don't lynch Feysal

Lynching Feysal removes him from the game, lets the scum and Sunandmoon make a kill as well as letting other PR's act, then we return to day.
Not lynching Feysal means that Sunandmoon and Feysal are removed from play tonight.

I think this is just a matter of numbers. We should choose the option that maximizes the number of town-directed kills, not counting a lynch of Feysal, and provides the best information for choosing those kills. Letting town PR's take an additional action should be a tiebreaker.
If we lynch Feysal, Sunandmoon can shoot mockingjaye if they decide to (whomever we would have lynched). The scum will probably kill Sunandmoon, but they would otherwise be killing someone else. On the other hand, Sunandmoon would lose an opportunity to shoot the "next" person after Mockingjaye. So at this point, I think the number of kills would work out the same either way. But we could get an extra round of other actions if we lynch Feysal.

Someone check my calculations. Or let me know if I'm wrong despite my calculations.

This is correct.

[Herodotus]

Empking, what exactly does your ability do?

[Empking]

Empking, what exactly does your ability do?

Gives people any abilities they can't remember. I think I could probably return MOI's suicidalness along with giving Gandalf & Andy's back.

[Herodotus]

Only abilities?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Mina / Faraday

– Please be on the lookout to get yourself a new Mouthpiece. I’ve lost any faith in Andy at this stage.

@Mystery Player who was in the QT when I was booted

- Please be double checking Andy's post re Seraph info from here on out. Also, immediately let us know if you are booted.

--

In regards to Herod’s

2003

there are two situations today – one in which we lynch Feysal and one in which we lynch someone else. To expand on his thoughts.

Scenario 1

– We lynch Feysal – in this case we reduce the number of Nightkills to 2 (barring any unknown ones that have not been shown , likelihood slim with a dead Town Arsonist).

That leaves Sun and Moon to shoot who they think is scum (Mockingjaye and MoS are my first choices currently), scum to take out a target of their choice, and perhaps a Cop investigation if Minaday wants to restore my Cop role.

Lowest risk scenario of the two choices – we remove a clear anti-Town kill before it can be used again thus increase the net possible lynches / kills to hit scum.

Scenario 2

– We lynch other and they are Scum / Harmful 3rd party – in this case we reduce the number of Mafia (a key goal at this stage) but leave two anti-Town kills for Night. Feysal isn’t going to get killed by the Mafia since he poses no threat to them. Town probably loses two players at Night and Sun and Moon can either aim for other scum or attempt to take out Feysal. Likely the same outcome as Scenario 1 with the downside of likely losing two Town at Night not one and with the risk that we don’t lynch correctly. If Sun and Moon chooses not shoot Feysal it is still possible Feysal (and possibly Furc) leave the game if they kill the ‘right’ player.

Scenario 3

– We lynch other and they are Town – worst case scenario. We can only possibly get one non-Town player removed (via a successful Sun and Moon shot, not taking into account the possible removal of Feysal / Furc via game mechanic) and have likely 3 dead Townies after Night.

So the Lynch Feysal / Don’t Lynch Feysal decision seems to rest on how risk adverse Town players are. Feysal hanging is the safest route. Lynching another player today brings the possibility of two Mafia dead by Dawn (or 1 Mafia and 1 SK) but has the risk of backfiring.

UNVOTE: Mockingjaye. I want to think about this some more over the weekend.

--

Actually, I only want Feysal dead right now.

That’s not the point. You started the day attacking all three of those players with complete lack of attention to the facts of the game. It was clearly scummy and your backpedalling doesn’t improve that.

Of course I don't think S&M are mafia anymore. Once I found out that we had enough information to discount that possibility, I no longer felt that S&M was a proper lynch. How did you miss that?

The information that discounted that possibility existed before you posted your scummy post. So the ‘Oh, I didn’t know’ stance means either you are a moron or scum. I’m leaning scum.

??? The Seraphs said they were going to do it? I thought *you* told us about it... -_-

Lulz – let’s review since your reading skills suck –

We have one move left today. NO ONE is to lynch before The Baker gives the a-ok. It is not our turn (our last move being made 10/26th at 3:13am and processed circa 10h later). When it is, we will deactivate Magna's power. ANYONE WHO HAMMERS BEFORE THEN IS CONFIRMED SCUM.

Clearly my powers of skimming are lacking

of late.

I fixed that to more accurately reflect your reading comprehension all game.

Since when did I say that quote addressed my push on smarg? You very specifically claimed that I ignored smarg being mafia AND that I ignored smarg being bulletproof. I responded to both of those claims by a) pointing out that I had thought smarg was scum, and b) pointing out that my initial (but faulty) theory at the beginning of the day very clearly took into account that smarg had flipped bulletproof, thus proving that I had NOT, in fact, ignored the flip. My skimming may be terrible, but I at least looked at the roles of the dead, lol...

This is a long paragraph of nothing.

Yet again – your first post showed complete lack of any sort of comprehension of the game state (from a Town perspective). You got laid out when the actual facts were presented and now are backpeddling in an attempt to distance yourself from your own scummy post. Nice.

Herodotus: Feysal claims that he did NOT try to kill Sun & Moon, so why do you believe everything else he's told us about himself but think he's lying about targeting WoW directly?

Do you not understand Mafia? Because Feysal playing to his wincondition says the only logical shots for him last night were Sun and Moon and me. Accepting “Oh, I shot WoW the Bodyguard” story in light of his Dekes kill agreement is pretty ludicrous.

--

Feysal isn't scum
It's confirmed he's not scum
He is either a town vig or an SK based on my ability

He’s claimed SK. In thread. No chance he is a Vig.

Don’t bother trying to save him.

Honestly, with scum + myself + Feysal, we have the ability to not allow the town to lynch anyone this round.
However, I can win without scum, too.

It takes 8 to lynch today. So you would have to, between the Mafia, Feysal and yourself, have more than 6 votes to assure a no-lynch. That’s of course assuming that the Mafia would object to a Feysal lynch. And of course assuming the Feysal and yourself would object to lynching anyone.

[Empking]

Only abilities?

The whole thing.

[kanyeknowsbest]

so what do you think about your ability not working on andrius despite his role being about not remembering?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be LA from 4pm EST today until Monday for my usual weekend family duties.

[Empking]

so what do you think about your ability not working on andrius despite his role being about not remembering?

Apparently he'd already been cured/it worked and he just lied about it?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, I only want Feysal dead right now.

That’s not the point. You started the day attacking all three of those players with complete lack of attention to the facts of the game. It was clearly scummy and your backpedalling doesn’t improve that.

You've pretty much just started repeating yourself over and over, so I'm going to wait and respond to this same point all at once.

Of course I don't think S&M are mafia anymore. Once I found out that we had enough information to discount that possibility, I no longer felt that S&M was a proper lynch. How did you miss that?

The information that discounted that possibility existed before you posted your scummy post. So the ‘Oh, I didn’t know’ stance means either you are a moron or scum. I’m leaning scum.

Oh wait, here it is again.

??? The Seraphs said they were going to do it? I thought *you* told us about it... -_-

Lulz – let’s review since your reading skills suck –

Wait, this looks familiar!

We have one move left today. NO ONE is to lynch before The Baker gives the a-ok. It is not our turn (our last move being made 10/26th at 3:13am and processed circa 10h later). When it is, we will deactivate Magna's power. ANYONE WHO HAMMERS BEFORE THEN IS CONFIRMED SCUM.

Clearly my powers of skimming are lacking

of late.

I fixed that to more accurately reflect your reading comprehension all game.

I'm getting bored.

Since when did I say that quote addressed my push on smarg? You very specifically claimed that I ignored smarg being mafia AND that I ignored smarg being bulletproof. I responded to both of those claims by a) pointing out that I had thought smarg was scum, and b) pointing out that my initial (but faulty) theory at the beginning of the day very clearly took into account that smarg had flipped bulletproof, thus proving that I had NOT, in fact, ignored the flip. My skimming may be terrible, but I at least looked at the roles of the dead, lol...

This is a long paragraph of nothing.

Yet again – your first post showed complete lack of any sort of comprehension of the game state (from a Town perspective). You got laid out when the actual facts were presented and now are backpeddling in an attempt to distance yourself from your own scummy post. Nice.

Whoa, really? I didn't see that coming.

Seriously MoI, your entire argument here has come down to "he didn't pay attention, so he's scum!" You do realize how little that makes sense, right? You are either claiming that I am scum who skimmed so badly that I forgot about my own faction's kill, or that I'm such a "crafty" player that I feigned missing out on those several facts. Neither of those options are logical conclusions. What exactly would be my motivation for presenting an argument that is so clearly debunked simply by looking at the first post? What evidence have you seen that convinces you that I would be so much more meticulous as town than as scum? That scum-MoS would not have carefully crafted his posts and double-/triple-checked the facts before putting forth his theories? What meta are you drawing this from?

Herodotus: Feysal claims that he did NOT try to kill Sun & Moon, so why do you believe everything else he's told us about himself but think he's lying about targeting WoW directly?

Do you not understand Mafia? Because Feysal playing to his wincondition says the only logical shots for him last night were Sun and Moon and me. Accepting “Oh, I shot WoW the Bodyguard” story in light of his Dekes kill agreement is pretty ludicrous.

I didn't say I believe Feysal...I don't even believe he was telling the truth about his wincon, so my opinion of whether or not he shot WoW is irrelevant, since he should die either way. I am trying to figure out why Herodotus believes EVERYTHING ELSE Feysal has said, but only now thinks the claimed SK might lie to us.

[Herodotus]

I didn't say I believe Feysal...I don't even believe he was telling the truth about his wincon, so my opinion of whether or not he shot WoW is irrelevant, since he should die either way. I am trying to figure out why Herodotus believes EVERYTHING ELSE Feysal has said, but only now thinks the claimed SK might lie to us.

The role he claimed isn't SK.
Now that I've answered (post 2017), do you disagree with my explanation?

@Empking: I'm still stuck on:
1. you thinking that gandalf was lying scum despite what he said matching the ability you claimed
2. despite thinking he was lying, you choosing gandalf to target before Andrius
3. Andrius saying that he wasn't fixed/cured/whatever on night 2 - which implicates Andrius more than you

[Gut]

@Mystery Player who was in the QT when I was booted - Please be double checking Andy's post re Seraph info from here on out. Also, immediately let us know if you are booted.

We didn't last much longer than you did, MoI.

Anyway, we got ourselves 2 scum caught in Nacho and mjaye and let's not be silly and just string 'em up.

Fun fact: the decree from the Seraphs that Empking should die - totally our doing. It really did work beautifully.

[Empking]

I didn't say I believe Feysal...I don't even believe he was telling the truth about his wincon, so my opinion of whether or not he shot WoW is irrelevant, since he should die either way. I am trying to figure out why Herodotus believes EVERYTHING ELSE Feysal has said, but only now thinks the claimed SK might lie to us.

The role he claimed isn't SK.
Now that I've answered (post 2017), do you disagree with my explanation?

@Empking: I'm still stuck on:
1. you thinking that gandalf was lying scum despite what he said matching the ability you claimed

Because he could have just copied Andrius. The amnesiac role wa\sn't something he'd've had to get from his role PM since it was out in the thread.

2. despite thinking he was lying, you choosing gandalf to target before Andrius

I had changed my mind by then.

[Herodotus]

Ok. I don't feel like that would go anywhere now.

---

Just did an ISO of espeonage, then smargaret.
I think the comments Espeonage made when voting kanyek and after look like distancing from the lynch, making kanyek not a buddy.
I'd like to have a theory for Espeonage's two quick votes at the beginning of day 2. Should help to understand Andrius.

And that means more than the people that made it a wagon and weren't trying to save themseves, why?

This implies town things about the formation of the Pere wagon.
smargaret has me just slightly more convinced that Magna isn't a likely buddy. Her Magna vote per se doesn't mean much as she was being lynched and could have just wanted to do some last-second bussing. But the false dilemma in the demand that we lynch one of Magna/Sunandmoon puts her opposite to Magna. (It shows more strongly Sunandmoon to be not a buddy but I was already convinced of that.)

[Regfan]

I'm going to be incredibly busy in the next few days and likely won't be able to be super-active due to it but I do want someone to properly explain to me this whole Andrius/Empking situation. My previous understanding was that Empking just gave Andrius a role but Andrius stating he was lying all along and has a role confuses me massively.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Minaday

– If you are entertaining the idea of re-initializing my Latent please don’t discuss it at all in the Seraph QT. I’d rather everyone (including AGM/Thor scum) have no idea if you intend to or not and thus have to possibly waste an ability usage slot trying to undermine that possibility. WIFOM away I say!

@Everyone not MoS

– If you don’t bother to read my response to MoS below please focus in on the important element his response skips – his original assertion that he ‘pushed’ the Smarg lynch. The ISO I did on him clearly shows he ignored the Esp slot until the absolute last second and then went into bus mode. He knows he can’t really argue against it so he ignored it.

Also – Gut is officially Town for being kicked out of the Seraph QT.

--

I’m mulling over a theory on Gandalf / Andrius.

Empking’s claimed the role-enabler.

@Empking – At this stage I want a full claim from you. Character and role name, explicit indication of all Night actions.

--

Anyway, we got ourselves 2 scum caught in Nacho and mjaye and let's not be silly and just string 'em up.

Why don’t you for fun explain why you think Nacho is more likely scum over MoS. I’m curious.

Also – what about lynching Feysal today doesn’t make good sense long-Term for Town?

--

You've pretty much just started repeating yourself over and over, so I'm going to wait and respond to this same point all at once.

Then why bother to quote selective parts and say crap like “I’m bored”? You did respond in an typically scummy way to attempt to undermine me by pretending responding to you was repetitive and useless. Scumtastic of you MoS.

I’ll skip all your repetitive crap …

Seriously MoI, your entire argument here has come down to "he didn't pay attention, so he's scum!"

You do realize how little that makes sense, right? You are either claiming that I am scum who skimmed so badly that I forgot about my own faction's kill, or that I'm such a "crafty" player that I feigned missing out on those several facts. Neither of those options are logical conclusions. What exactly would be my motivation for presenting an argument that is so clearly debunked simply by looking at the first post? What evidence have you seen that convinces you that I would be so much more meticulous as town than as scum? That scum-MoS would not have carefully crafted his posts and double-/triple-checked the facts before putting forth his theories? What meta are you drawing this from?

Bolded – Nope, not even close. It’s “MoS’s original post right out of the gate is scummy as all get out. He doesn’t bother to actually look for scum but attack 3rd Party Feysal (easy attack), SunandMoon (not possibly Mafia with Smarg) and myself (I’ll leave you to fill in this but given you’ve already said “I only want to lynch Feysal” it’s pretty clear you know I'm Town) as opposed to looking for Smarg partners”. That’s pretty easy to understand.

The rest of your post looks like a a WIFOM parade –

What would be my motivation when my argument was crap?

Let’s see … hoping you can get Amrun / Magister and I at each other’s throats again based on the 'non-resolution", hoping you can get one or two non-partners to not look closely and to have your partners help out if it works? Clearly not out of the question.

Now on the otherside – What motivation for Town is there to post what you did when it was clearly wrong and to not be first looking for Smarg partners? There really isn’t one.

What evidence have I see that you are more careful as Town or Scum?

Aside from the WIFOM what does that even mean? Makes no sense at all. You are attacking arguments never made. Do you own a large farm you need to fit with all the strawmen you are building today? Again – I see scum taking a chance, getting smacked down, and backpedelling with “Oh, I missed that”. Again … no reason for Town to have taken the stance you did.

What meta am I drawing from

? None at all. I’m drawing from logical scum and Town motivations. I can’t see any for Town (aside from you being a uber-VI level player like Shotty or Furc) but I can see a scum one. A stupid longshot (IMO) as discussed, but still more likely than you are just plain stupid.

I didn't say I believe Feysal...I don't even believe he was telling the truth about his wincon, so my opinion of whether or not he shot WoW is irrelevant, since he should die either way. I am trying to figure out why Herodotus believes EVERYTHING ELSE Feysal has said, but only now thinks the claimed SK might lie to us.

Doesn’t make sense. If Feysal was a full Serial Killer looking to survive long term he would not have claimed his ‘limited target list” that by Day 3 ended up having all but one name off it. And he certainly wouldn’t have gone back on his “I’ll shoot Dekes” statement Day 3 if he was a full Serial Killer. Nothing to gain by saying “I think Dekes is Town” and looking to kill anyone else when a bad flip (in this case WoW) screws him immediately.

Again – the most logical conclusion is that Feysal claimed his actual Wincon and took a flier seeing so many dead Protection roles that he could win and escape today.

The ‘scum-hunting’ you are doing with Herod shows further that you actually aren’t scum-hunting but rather looking for items you can twist to look bad when they actually aren’t.

--

[Empking]

Melian, Mind Restorer, Gandalf, Andy, Andy

[MagnaofIllusion]

Melian, Mind Restorer, Gandalf, Andy, Andy

Ok, now that Empking has locked into his claim I want to float my current theory.

1. Gandalf claimed his role was restored Night 1 do to a Night action. Directly known.
2. Gandalf specifically said that he had non-thread reasons for wanting Esp alive. Directly known.

Now the theory that I am mulling over is that Esp / Smarg activated Gandalf's role N1 with some action that may or may not have included Neighborizing. The Mindscrewing part of that role is what got me thinking about this.

If Gandalf knew that Esp was the reason his Town role was restored he would have every reason to trust Esp, being Neighborized or not.

And the rest of the theory is that Empking is now using that fact to fake his role and piggyback off the knowledge he likely would have from his scum partner. If I'm correct then I think it unlikely that Scum Empking and Scum Andrius would conspire to make claims in thread that don't mesh (Empking saying he restored Andy's role, Andy saying it was not restore yet during Day 3).



It would to some degree explain why Gandalf was the N2 Mafia kill which has never made much sense to me so far.

If the theory is true then Empking is scum with Esp. I have some things in thread I want to look into regarding timing of this but it's something I sort of developed out the other day.

[Empking]

I'll mention that I breadcrumbed my Gandalf action in 838(?) (First post of D2) with my random question.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Yeah, MoS is either retarded or scum. Go with kanye, S&M, and wraith.

I have reasons for wanting espeonage alive that have nothing to do with his alignment.

Just wait three days on that one.

if gandalf believed he received his role (a town role) from espe, wouldn't that have led him to believe there was a stronger chance for espe to be town?

[kanyeknowsbest]

Well, I must have been activated by some other means. Maybe the seraph's ability is for something else. In fact, something else happened to me last night that might be related(I hadn't given it a second thought until now). Rather not say what it is though, I'll know more tomorrow, if it's relevant I'll bring it up again.

also note he had two separate actions on him that night.

i think the scenario you proposed is pretty unlikely moi

[Herodotus]

I have reasons for wanting espeonage alive that have nothing to do with his alignment. Just wait three days on that one.

Looking at gandalf's role, "Aerin, Town Twoshot-Sacrificial Arsonist", my interpretation from the flavour and rolename would be that he could target a player at night, then kill himself and the people (up to 2) that he had targeted. (It's not a useful role as I have stated it, but there may be more to it.) I think there is a possibility he meant he would be killing Espeonage (along with himself) after three days. That was what seemed most likely at the beginning of Day 3 before smargaret claimed.

FWIW, I don't think Empking is a good lynch today.

[mockingjaye]

There are a few choices for his buddies: Emp having the ability to give roles makes me think he is probably town. For MoI to be scum, it would have to be with Ludi (see speculation yesterday about claim)--however, I still think it's far too convenient that he would have a latent power unlocked just as he was planning to claim a fake guilty and that that would precipitate his decision to claim suicide cop, too, and on top of that, I've got a town read on Ludi, so I still don't see that happening. I've had a nullish-town read on Gut and MoS and a nullish-scum read on Dekes, Elli, and Herod, but nothing so strong as my read on Kanye. Andy, Feysal, and Furc fall into another category altogether. Right now I would list Kanye and Elli as my top choices for a lynch today.

MoS: I believe this paragraph pretty much states what I think of everyone right now. When I posted this, my list was, scum-->town, Kanye, Elli, Herod, Andy, Regfan, MoI, Emp, Ludi, Gut, MoS, Amrun, (Feysal/Furc in their own category). That list isn't based on how anyone relates to Kanye; the only person I saw linked to Kanye was Esp, and that was based on how he worked very hard to justify Kanye's vote on Gandalf. FYI: I am currently reevaluating this order--but Kanye is still at the top of the list.

Yes, you did ask Esp to be vigged quite a few times but asking for X or Y to be vigged is incredibly meaningless as the vig at the end of the day is going to end up shooting their own target and a recommendation from one specific player is likely to hold no weight whatsoever in their decision. I'd like an explanation as to why you never attempted to present a real case against Espeonage or comment on his ISO at all with the exception of pointing out a potential partner-tell with him and Kanye. If you really believed you nailed two scum (Espeonage and Kanye) wouldn't a skim or detailed read through of Espeonage and a presented case strengthen and solidify your scum-read on Kanye while providing ample information to lead a lynch?

I gave a vig list when we were ALL suggesting vig targets for Feysal. I didn't bring up more on Esp because the main things I saw was 1) his link to Kanye who I still think is scum and 2) the same things everyone else saw, which was the lurking; he wasn't really doing much of anything at all to comment on other than that--my whole "case" on him was what I said in 550 and lurking; Marg came in and her first post was pretty bad, but it was blown apart by MoS by the time I had even read it. There wasn't much else to say, and sense Esp had already been on my shortlist, I didn't have a problem voting for her.

As for leading anything, my strongest scum-read is and has been Kanye. I don't like the way his wagon fell apart on two different days, and I don't think that a town would only have one scum on the wagon. He also pulled a random VC from the many available--but he ignored all the ones that showed people jumping on and off his wagon--especially the ones who left him for another town wagon. (And if you really want to look at some interesting VCAs--look at how his wagons built and collapsed, and who ended up where when they did.) He had TWO whole days worth of wagons to choose from, too. I spent two days asking him questions and pointing out things I wanted him to clarify or discuss, and he either ignored me or gave vague answers (and of course, he spent a large portion of D2 in absentia anyway).

The reason I voted Marg on D3 was because D3 was occupied with a rather large debate, and the lynch literally came down to the wire. She was the only good wagon for me, because I was convinced that both Turins are town. One of the reasons I am late on the wagon is because I was waiting to see if we would find out anything about MoI's situation, which we didn't until Monday, and I was still trying to decide what to do if his power wasn't revoked. I didn't want to end the day with everything still so messed up, and withholding my vote was the only thing I could do to help keep that from happening. After MoI announced his power was revoked, I was fine voting Marg b/c I felt he was probably gong to be ok; before that, I wasn't as sure and I wasn't sure what I was going to do.

but you spent a great deal of the game focusing solely on voting, putting forward reasons and questioning Kanye while really not attempting to chime and comment deeply on any of the other ongoing wagons.

Voting, putting forward reasons, and questioning your suspects is pretty much the point, isn't it? As for the second half of this, I already had someone say this to me, and I addressed it in 1154. And give me a break about "not commenting deeply." I have "commented deeply" on my main suspect and pointed out what I thought was scummy about other people all along. I may not have had a whole LOT to say about them, but I offered my two cents and continued to focus on my primary suspect. And so what about the first post on D2? Did you read what the first thing I said in that post was? My cat had just died; it was pretty bad. I wasn't doing well at that point of that day, and that was about all I had to give just then.

In #1297 you show your first signs of doubt in this read where you admit that SpyreXs reasoning for Kanye being town is sound but then progress onward to continue pushing your read without taking a chance to step back and really rethink it.

Acknowledging someone else has a good point doesn't mean I was doubting my own; I didn't agree with his reasoning, just as he didn't agree with mine. I was showing that I was considering what he was saying, but I didn't agree. I thought A LOT about it before I posted it. Saying I didn't is just your conjecture--like the only way I was really thinking it through was if I ended up changing my mind? But I DID think it through, and I didn't change my mind.

Furthermore you never really commented on any of the other leading wagons and your biggest 'analysis' on an alternate player throughout the game was on my MoI isn't lyncher and is town which was relatively universally agreed upon at the time making the post read as an attempt to seem active while really contributing and presenting minimal.

I already addressed this; I commented when I thought it was necessary and kept my top 3-5 scum list updated as needed. And the issue about MoI was up in the air--he was not universally considered town, and I posted what I needed to post to establish my thoughts on the entire situation. It was basically a 1v1, and I thought they were both town, and I wanted to demonstrate why I thought they were BOTH town, and I was HOPING that would a) calm people down and b) spur some more level-headed discussion, or c) put my thoughts out there so I could see what other people thought, and maybe they could offer feedback if I was completely on the wrong track.


You say you need other people to talk to to sort out your thoughts? Well, I do too (again, this is something Andy can verify, if he will). I love being a mason or hydra because I process my thoughts by talking them out. Yesterday I was completely confused and had no one to talk to about my thoughts, so I figured putting it in the thread was my only option. Pretty much the ONLY person to respond and give me something to think about this post was Herod, who suggested that I wasn't considering a particular angle correctly, and I thought about what he said, and I decided I didn't agree with him and his comment only solidified my thoughts that I was right about both of them being town.

1. Continual AtE (when I flip Town what then, etc.)
2. Continual focus on Kayne and ignoring of changes of game-state.
3. General unhelpful ‘helpful’ posting ( a visual guide to the NKs that adds nothing to scum-hunting, discussion about Smarg’s possible recruiting that goes no-where ).
4. Sarcasm used as defense regarding ‘bussing’ possibilities as opposed to explanation about why the Smarg vote isn’t a bus.

1. It was a legitimate question. What does he have when I flip town? How legitimate is the rest of a VCA that turns up a false positive with the highest result? There isn't any emotion involved--it's an appeal to logic, maybe, but not emotion. What is plan B when plan A proves fail?

2. I still think Kanye is scum. I didn't ignore anything, as it seemed the "changed state" was everyone saying I was scum all of a sudden. I still stand by all of the things I've already said about Kanye from D1 and D2. I also addressed why I no longer think Empking is scum and offered my reads on everyone else, including a response to Andy.

3. You might find it unhelpful, but writing that out was helpful for me, and now it's a bookmark for me. I also pointed out it was superfluous to the discussion at hand but that I wanted it there anyway. The comment about Marg was directed to Herod, in response to his comment, and I pointed out the discussion was probably moot. That whole entire section--the list/comment was only a small fraction of the whole post.

4. Yeah, so? I was sarcastic. It wasn't just about Smarg--it was about the idea that Kanye was also my partner and I was bussing them both. Had it just been about Smarg, I probably wouldn't have been sarcastic, but I was responding to the idea that I am scum who has done nothing but bus two partners this entire game, which I find kind of asinine. Here's your explanation about Smarg, though: it's not a bus because I'm not scum, making it logistically impossible to bus anyone. I also addressed this in my comments to Regfan.

My thoughts – I really get the sense that the Espeonage commentary was distancing. Note that in the entire game she only directly comments on Esp’s being scummy early (ISO 3). The rest is listing him as possible scum (ISO 18) while not bothering to follow up on it at all or listing the BP player on a Feysal kill list.

Your sense here is wrong. I have wanted Kanye lynched more than anyone else this entire game and have stayed on him because of that.

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I'm working out a VCA of my own to post before I'm lynched (or vigged), but here's a hint: my wagon is scum-driven, so that should help you narrow down your suspects tomorrow after all the flips are in.