The Children of Húrin Mafia (GREAT REVIVAL)

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sorry, been kind of letting this game slide to deal with another game for a bit. I'll respond to MoI as soon as I get time.

[Amrun]

catch up tomorrow, sorry

[Herodotus]

I've read only about half of that big post of mockingjaye's, but this paragraph looks like something a townie would say:

Acknowledging someone else has a good point doesn't mean I was doubting my own; I didn't agree with his reasoning, just as he didn't agree with mine. I was showing that I was considering what he was saying, but I didn't agree. I thought A LOT about it before I posted it. Saying I didn't is just your conjecture--like the only way I was really thinking it through was if I ended up changing my mind? But I DID think it through, and I didn't change my mind.

Still, mockingjaye:
What happens when Kanyek flips town?
Why are each of Regfan, Elib, and I near the top of your scumlist? I just searched for our names in your ISO, and they each hardly appeared before your post calling us all null-scum reads.

[Regfan]

Getting to this game in a few hours. I'll read into and respond to Mjays wall then.

[Furcolow]

kanye wont flip, but if he did, it wouldn't be town

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why do you say that, Furc? I think kanye is pretty obviously town at this point. Haven't we exhausted this topic already?

[Andrius]

i'd make excuses as to why i wasnt posting ANYWHERE onsite for a few days now but the cleanandsimple is that im losing interest in mafia so i might hiatus after SJC and ongoing games are over

anywho thats not omportant here

Faraday called Amrun's "another looksee at my role pm" incompetence on a level of kondi.

Faramina are calling me scum (lol) for refusing to claim my role. (Hint: I did a loooooong time ago D1. ) And I maintain what I'm doing motivated on what im doing.
And apparently not doing so immediately makes me scum.
anywho


faraday says there wouldnt be 6 groupscum if theres a recruiter
thats retarted.


regfan will be given a full list of reads in a few days

faraday asks mina if amrun is more incompetent than me being scummy

he also wonders why "kyb" isn't dead yet
though who kyb is is beyond me

faraday complaining that i drunkposted inthread and not here.
and that's a scumtell
when really you can blame my cookies
because i have to have QT open in another browser altogether because cookies hate QT
so i have to have two internets running with mafia et.al. and one for QT
and its a pain so obv mafia's more important
and nacho is more of a bro than you'll ever be


following messages:
-i haven't claimed my character name/wincon in the QT. they asked me a couple times
I counter with i did claim everything i knew d1 multiple times when anyone asked me. i have mah reasons.
-Magna was refering to Gut who was kicked out of the QT after magna
- nacho's entry to the game was horribad (<3)
- faramina think i'd be a good lynch/kill
I don't think so.

anywho to wings my brothers
keep up with me if you can

faraday thinks drunkpsoting inthread and not in-QT is scummy
1) was not a drunkpost
2) explained above
3) why the hell would i want to talk to faramina/agm when drunk? NACHO LOVES ME AND THTS MORE THAN THEYLL EVER DO



QT IV is now locked and i dont think im in it so yesss no more voice.
just being awesome as per usual

No, this crap ends.

When was your role actived or did you actually have a role from the beginning? Direct answer with none of this flourid crap ASAP. Hanging out with the Seraphs doesn't exempt you from providing usable content.

If I was to stand for something, what good would it do to bend over backwards?
I committed to the play and I will run it 'til its run its course.

I did have a role from the beginning.
Unknown.
It'd be impossible to know everything I did which gandalf confirmed if i was bullshitting yesss.

I'm a survivor
I'm not going to piss them off

I thought he was a lover with feysal. >_________>

Ok, so we definitely need to have you shot at Night or lynched soon since you are taking a clearly Pro-Scum stance. Noted.

*nods*

The more I am analyzing it, the more I feel 3rd party like Feysal and I need to help scumhunt with the town

Ok well glad to know.
I'd rather not say.
Some things work best from the shadows.
And while I don't run around killing shit or being all cop-like....

I’ve lost any faith in Andy at this stage.

Well I have faith in you.
I'll be your Blue Lantern.

We didn't last much longer than you did, MoI.

I can confirm this.

I’m mulling over a theory on Gandalf / Andrius.

Well we're not Nienor/Niniel.
That would have been cool. Instead he runs off with a lighter leaving me here.

also a general warning that im going to be busy for the next few days but ill play catchupkeepup along the way so i will be following along.



1. Andrius <--- U. N. OWEN.
2. ooba <--- Town Mason [?] bastard so eeehhhh but i liked ooba's play and ludi. if one is scum its amrun but masons so prob. both town i guess
3. Sun and Moon <--- more likely scum mason than magisterooba.
6. Ellibereth <--- elli_scum. sorry nachobaby.
7. Mastermind of Sin <--- metascum
8. Dekes <--- is this regfan? dekes was also lurkylurkscum
10. mockingjaye <--- reallybusytown
11. Furcolow <--- survivor (lol)
12. Gut <--- town via seraph
15. Feysal <--- SK
16. kanyeknowsbest <--- will have to reread
18. Empking <--- prob.town lets be honest here role confirmation. unless he's scum with me or gandalf but gandalf is deadtown and me well being unknown so
20. MagnaofIllusion <--- obvtown. long live magna
22. Herodotus <--- will have to reread

[Magister Ludi]

On what grounds is mockingjay town?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't really like Andy's little "falala" attitude in the most recent post. It's like he's trying to make light of things to avoid looking scummy over them. My gut reaction was that he probably has reasons not to have claimed his role earlier, but this most recent response doesn't look so great to me. Also, his list of reads seems pretty pedestrian and safe, not really the best sign in my book.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP:

Vote: Andrius

Will likely respond to MoI tomorrow as I mentioned earlier. Going to bed now, so I didn't have time for a long post but I wanted to pop in cuz Andy's latest caught my eye.

[Regfan]

Also – Gut is officially Town for being kicked out of the Seraph QT.

I think your 'officially town' read is extreme for such a minor tell here. The scum Seraphs are not going to kick out every townie from the Seraph QT, doing so would confirm anyone not being kicked out as mafia and 'clear' everyone being kicked out. Furthermore the amount of damage that can be done due to a particular player being in the QT isn't as strong as you seem to be letting of especially when another player is just as easily recruited into the QT. With that said though Guts 'plan' of pushing suspicion onto Empking to attain a reaction via using the Seraph as a strategical place reads as a strong town-tell.

------

I hate, hate, hate getting into quote walls with people, I feel it cloggs up the thread but I feel this is needed so I'll try and keep it minimal and only address the major points. I'll apologize in advance if it gets long winded or slightly difficult to understand.

Voting, putting forward reasons, and questioning your suspects is pretty much the point, isn't it? As for the second half of this, I already had someone say this to me, and I addressed it in 1154. And give me a break about "not commenting deeply." I have "commented deeply" on my main suspect and pointed out what I thought was scummy about other people all along. I may not have had a whole LOT to say about them, but I offered my two cents and continued to focus on my primary suspect.

Yes, it is the point of the game. But focusing solely on one target even if it's your strongest suspect isn't the aim of the game at all. Secondly you attempted to push or question Espeonage deeper after presenting a very valid point on why he's scummy or suspicious in #550 yet felt completely happy to continue to pester Kanye.

Acknowledging someone else has a good point doesn't mean I was doubting my own;

I didn't agree with his reasoning

, just as he didn't agree with mine. I was showing that I was considering what he was saying, but I didn't agree. I thought A LOT about it before I posted it. Saying I didn't is just your conjecture--like the only way I was really thinking it through was if I ended up changing my mind? But I DID think it through, and I didn't change my mind.

Lets take a look at exactly what you said:

Okay, so in writing out my argument about why I disagree with SpyreX’s point about Kanye and the D1 wagons that

I wrote myself into understanding if not completely agreeing with his argument.

You showed acknowledgement, understanding and to a degree agreement with his reasoning, you presented no real counter other than 'But maybe scum thought X instead' and stuck with your previous reasoning and logic. I can understand still suspecting Kanye after it and not fully agreeing with the conclusions that SpyreX was pushing but what I don't understand is that how presentation of his logical counter points didn't weaken your scum-read at all and you showed no real sign of scumhunting heavily elsewhere afterwards which makes your whole 'consideration period' seem non-existent.

I already addressed this; I commented when I thought it was necessary and kept my top 3-5 scum list updated as needed. And the issue about MoI was up in the air--he was not universally considered town, and I posted what I needed to post to establish my thoughts on the entire situation. It was basically a 1v1, and I thought they were both town, and I wanted to demonstrate why I thought they were BOTH town, and I was HOPING that would a) calm people down and b) spur some more level-headed discussion, or c) put my thoughts out there so I could see what other people thought, and maybe they could offer feedback if I was completely on the wrong track.

I disagree, MoI really wasn't 'heavily suspected' or even 'suspected' by any means and although you may have wanted to calm people down and spur discussion as well as reaffirm your thoughts I don't see how focusing on this situation was a relevant use of your time especially with deadline winding down.

I'm working out a VCA of my own to post before I'm lynched (or vigged), but here's a hint: my wagon is scum-driven, so that should help you narrow down your suspects tomorrow after all the flips are in.

mockingjaye - 4 - kanyeknowsbest, Magister Ludi, MagnaofIllusion, Regfan

You're claiming to have mega-strong town-reads on MoI and Ludi while also claiming to have a mega-strong scum-read on Kanye so your whole 'my wagon is scum driven' is either 1) You subtly declaring suspicion towards me or 2) You just finding another way of saying you suspect Kanye.

That surprisingly wasn't as long as I was expecting it to be.

[Regfan]

I second MoS when it comes to Furcolows comment, you need to explain, elaborate on and reveal any information you have.

Andrius, a few things. Thanks for getting them to start working on a list of reads. Secondly, Kyb is Kayne. Third, I don't understand your role and your lack of reasoning behind elaborting into it. And lastly, you'll need to explain your Mjaye town-read to me and your scum-meta on MoS. Also I'm not understanding your prior scum-read on Dekes and your complete avoidance on trying to state a read on me.

I'll have a summarized list of my reads up within the next day or two.

[Plum]

VOTE COUNT #4.3

Nachomamma8 - 1 - Gut
Feysal - 2 - Empking, Andrius
mockingjaye -

3

- kanyeknowsbest, Magister Ludi, Regfan
kanyeknowsbest - 2 - mockingjaye, Furcolow
Sun and Moon - 1 - Nachomamma8
Andrius - 1 - Mastermind of Sin

Not Voting (4): Sun and Moon, Feysal, Herodotus, MagnaofIllusion

With 14 alive it will take 8 votes to lynch.

Feysal and Nachomamma8 are being prodded.

Deadline for Day 4 will be in approximately (but no fewe2 than) 11 days and will be exactly determined soon.

[kanyeknowsbest]

I have reason to believe I know a scum
I will get back to you when the day is done

vote: kanye

The more I am analyzing it, the more I feel 3rd party like Feysal and I need to help scumhunt with the town

please reconcile these statements.

[Gut]

I'll reconcile them for you: Furcolow is an idiot.

Nacho/Elli still needs to die in a major way.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Amrun and Magister

– please discuss your thoughts on lynching Feysal today to strategically cut down on the number of deaths at Night and to assure at least one of Amrun / myself gets to Day 5

--

@ANDY

– Last chance. This whole “I’m playing this way for a reason” explanation doesn’t cut it. I don’t care if you don’t claim your role or not and furthermore your whole “I’m breadcrumbing” explanation is pointless. Sorry Baker but I don’t really care about your breadcrumbing. I’ve really thought the Bakery was really rather useless to Town in the long term. And if you come back with "My role was known Day1, it was unknown" I'm going to kill you. Period.

I’m going to ask one more time – When did your role become revealed to you? If it has always been revealed to you explicitly say so. Again, I don’t give a rats ass about what it is. Town fucking needs clarity to assess Empking’s claim and I’m fucking tired of your little song and dance. Day 4 with few scum dead is not the time for “Teeeheee, I’m all mysterious” about something like this.

--

I'll mention that I breadcrumbed my Gandalf action in 838(?) (First post of D2) with my random question.

Did you breadcrumb your Night 2 action on Andy?

--

EBWOP: Vote: Andrius

Will likely respond to MoI tomorrow as I mentioned earlier. Going to bed now, so I didn't have time for a long post but I wanted to pop in cuz Andy's latest caught my eye.

Lulz. You are voting Andy for 2058? That’s some serious scum-hunting right there

Still awaiting your response … keep delaying.

--

I think your 'officially town' read is extreme for such a minor tell here

It’s not simply for being kicked out. That was the last element that solified my read. I do find it funny that you take me to task for that when your “his push on Empking via reaction testing” you think is a strong-town tell when it’s really Null until we see Empking’s alignment.

--

also note he had two separate actions on him that night.

i think the scenario you proposed is pretty unlikely moi

Disagree with your conclusion. Gandalf specifically said the following –

Well, I must have been activated by some other means. Maybe the seraph's ability is for something else.

In fact, something else happened to me last night that might be related(I hadn't given it a second thought until now)

. Rather not say what it is though, I'll know more tomorrow, if it's relevant I'll bring it up again.

He specifically says he doesn’t know for certain if being Neighborized resulted in his returning of role.

--

Looking at gandalf's role, "Aerin, Town Twoshot-Sacrificial Arsonist", my interpretation from the flavour and rolename would be that he could target a player at night, then kill himself and the people (up to 2) that he had targeted. (It's not a useful role as I have stated it, but there may be more to it.) I think there is a possibility he meant he would be killing Espeonage (along with himself) after three days. That was what seemed most likely at the beginning of Day 3 before smargaret claimed.

FWIW, I don't think Empking is a good lynch today.

I’m not sure on your interpretation. It’s possible but the “something else happened to me last night” that Kayne and I referenced above strongly hints that his “don’t want Esp dead despite alignment” is him confirming Neighborization by Esp.

And I agree .. Emp isn’t today’s lynch regardless.

--

1. It was a legitimate question. What does he have when I flip town? How legitimate is the rest of a VCA that turns up a false positive with the highest result? There isn't any emotion involved--it's an appeal to logic, maybe, but not emotion. What is plan B when plan A proves fail?

No, it is a clear Appeal to Emotion. That’s what saying “What happens when I flip Town” exactly is. You are flat out stating “Hey, I’m Town”. It may not be emotionally charged (using all-caps, swearing) but it is a textbook Wiki Appeal to Emotion.

How legitimate is a VCA count that turns you up as the top suspect even if you are Town? Perfectly. It would just happen to mean that you voted in a pattern that was most likely for scum to follow given my methodology. I also like that you ignore that four other suspects appear in my “likely” scum tier who I am investigating. The VCA doesn’t say “Mockingjaye is the highest, must be scum”. It says “Look here and investigate using other means”.

2. I still think Kanye is scum.

Great. You have zero support at this point for your stance and really are a top suspect. Regardless of how strongly you feel about Kayne it’s not helpful if you are Town to just lock you vote and suspicion in on one player for four days.

Your sense here is wrong. I have wanted Kanye lynched more than anyone else this entire game and have stayed on him because of that.

Again, pointless. Why is it wrong. Detail how your interactions with Esp / Smarg don’t have the hallmarks of a partner bussing.

I'm working out a VCA of my own to post before I'm lynched (or vigged), but here's a hint: my wagon is scum-driven, so that should help you narrow down your suspects tomorrow after all the flips are in.

Regfan has already pointed out this but I’ve very curious what your “my wagon is scum-driven” supposedly means.

--

[Amrun]

@Amrun and Magister %u2013 please discuss your thoughts on lynching Feysal today to strategically cut down on the number of deaths at Night and to assure at least one of Amrun / myself gets to Day 5

While I instinctively rebel against this because my instinct is to lynch scum, I think the time may have come.

Feysal resists instructions and is not playing in a pro-town manner and must be eliminated at some point.

If you think it would be better, I'll shoot him tonight, but the possibility of him being bp is there.

Also considering shooting and/or lynching: Furcolow, for playing pro-scum; Andrius, for being scummy; Elli/Nacho for being scummy

[Empking]

Did you breadcrumb your Night 2 action on Andy?

No, I think the "guilty" had already been made up and I expected to fullclaim eventually. More importantly I presumed that the main point of my ability had already been used.

[MagnaofIllusion]

If you think it would be better, I'll shoot him tonight, but the possibility of him being bp is there.

Also considering shooting and/or lynching: Furcolow, for playing pro-scum; Andrius, for being scummy; Elli/Nacho for being scummy

1. I think shooting him as opposed to lynching him is the worst choice. Aside from BP concerns it gives him a chance to actually shoot. The only reason not to lynch him is if you trust he will NOT come at us and could be a threat to scum which would be playing against his claimed Wincon.

2. What do you think of MoS / Mockingjaye, especially their Esp / Smarg interactions?

[Amrun]

1. True. And as I think we are both town, this is a concern.

2. MoS I think is town. Mockingjaye I am null on currently but looking at him in ISO etc is on my "to-do-list" along with reading the recent wallfest.

[kanyeknowsbest]

also note he had two separate actions on him that night.

i think the scenario you proposed is pretty unlikely moi

Disagree with your conclusion. Gandalf specifically said the following –

Well, I must have been activated by some other means. Maybe the seraph's ability is for something else.

In fact, something else happened to me last night that might be related(I hadn't given it a second thought until now)

. Rather not say what it is though, I'll know more tomorrow, if it's relevant I'll bring it up again.

He specifically says he doesn’t know for certain if being Neighborized resulted in his returning of role.

yes, two things happened -- he got his role and he was potentially neighborized/interacted with by espeonage in some way that let him know that espeonage had done something. i think that if espeonage had given him his role it is something that he would have let him know in a neighorization quicktopic, in which case he would definitely know they were related. i believe that assuming there were two different actions is the more reasonable assumption.

[Magister Ludi]

I feel that lynching mockingjay is still the best play here today.

Feysal is just doing jack all for town though. I need to ponder a little longer.

[Herodotus]

Nacho has done nothing to change my desire to remove Ellib from play. Definitely over mockingjaye.

What I see as ideal:
1. Faramina reactivates Magna (I'm assuming this wouldn't cause his death due to Sunandmoon not having been lynched earlier).
2. Lynch feysal; hopefully this also removes furcolow from the game.
3. Sunandmoon vigs Nacho, Nacho flips scum, and Magna investigates someone.

@Magister Ludi:
Do you feel that would be better than vigging mockingjaye, and slowing the NK's?

[Magister Ludi]

Thats what i'm thinking. Feysal has been a force for bad this entire game. Not really shot who we wanted, despite town asking him too.

[Mastermind of Sin]

ROFL. *Now* you guys get it? Sheesh. MoI and I have been warning you guys about Feysal all game...