Animal Rescue: petsPick (Game Over!)

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm glad you got to use this anyways, reading rest of thread.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Vote: lewarcher82

(L-8)

Now I am forced to wonder which one is the explanation of your behaviour. (1) Reckless town - who just won the "VI of the game" trophy despite quil's efforts or (2) fishy scum.

I will agree on the town VI hypothesis for now. Another detail in her posts shows that she tends to be clueless about the fishy potential of her proposal.

Moreover, I have never seen scum fish so blatantly.

It sounds like you already had your mind made up.

Yep, this is the best point so far. "Here's some options so it looks like I'm being reasonable; here's the obvious conclusion I already had in mind when I made my first post".

VOTE: lewarcher82

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I think VPB is reading things into xvart's vote that xvart never said; in fact xvart's reasoning was a real weak point about number of words and having enough time to post which seemed more charade than substance. I actually like Sotty's vote and I think Baltar is tilting at windmills.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

This is my challenge.

Challenge Accepted.

Confirm Vote: lewarcher82

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Since when? It's a good plan. Pie'd be proud.

Yeah, a good plan for scum. Make scummy claim, when scummy claim doesn't save self, change claim to something more pro-town, guarantee death over night, somehow survive the night, drown town in "why you rascally mafia roleblocker preventing me from killing myself last night" WIFOM. Been there, done that, bought the souvenir program.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

But DDD cannot be as blind as he appears to be (I didn't change my claim, don't lie. I explained it and made it a full claim after I was put at L-1).

Right, it's my fault that you intentionally misled us. I also find the "wagon based on nothing" charge to be hilarious; it was based on something in the beginning and your claim shenaigans, Sotty's 181 and the attempts to discredit the wagon only build on that.

Listen, we don't kill vig claims... That's dumb.

Saying we don't lynch any sort of claim in a role "madness" game. Now that's dumb.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

In this case, I think it's dumb. We haven't had any flips yet. People think he's an SK and want to lynch him for it

when we don't even know if there is an SK

.

He should get at least one night for evaluation. It's just ... common sense, to me.

I agree that random SK speculation is dumb. And I understand the logic, give him a night to prove himself maybe he will if he's town. And while that's extremely unlikely in my view because even if he can prove his role it won't prove his alignment and we're more likely to end up at square one no matter what. Let me turn around that logic on you, we let him live another night and he's scum; not just scum but a scum role cop or roleblocker or busdriver and by letting him live one night he shouldn't he alive he manages to fuck up someone's useful night actions or give scum information they need to win. Suddenly the game shifts from one we should win by just rolling scum with night actions to one where scum have some sort of advantage that we can't overcome.

You lynch scum when you get a chance; you don't give them multiple chances to hurt the town.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

~~

Got a town (and rather uncomplimentary) read on Amrun, probably my strongest read so far (well about equal with lew-scum) but definitely not one where I'd sheep behind her.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, thoughts on Quilford and Llama?

Don't know how to read Quilford but wouldn't mind seeing him dead because he's often a derp. Seems very taken with setup spec and role possibility which I always think are dead ends. Further, anyone who knows their meta knows how to play with and against it for effect so his attempts to rationalize his behavior early are pointless. Right now I'm trying to figure out his motivation for getting off the lew wagon when he did; I suspect it's because of the "governing" because he still seems to think lew is anti-town after that which certainly bothers me.

Superficially llamamarble promised analysis he didn't deliver; his stance on the vig thing is correct, but he also spends alot of time talking up points that I think are uselessly speculative as well (e.g. Assassin as an anti-town word) and then calls out Rec for setup spec which he calls a scumtell but justified in this case? I have no idea why he's voting Quilford either; he's just a mess of inconsistent play. Which frankly wouldn't worry me if I didn't think he was a better player than that so again I'm looking for an ulterior motive that I'm not sure of.

They both belong in the "doing bad things, questionable motives" category which means they need to be watched closely to see if any patterns develop.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Back from V/LA, will catch up on the day ASAP.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Starting from the top of the day, of the two names Sotty mentioned I think UT is the scummier of them because his play has been more “normal”. Normal/boring is scummier in my book than bad/weird.

~~

Jason trying to make connections without flips is horrible play; even worse it seems like those are the reasons he’s voting for llamamarble.

~~

Hm...

I'll drink this Kool-Aid and see what happens.

Vote: VP Baltar (L-6)

*waits for DDD and Sotty to make their pass as well*

I usually give you, Sotty, and Vi and the rest of our Kliq too much space to work, not too little. If you’re getting bricks thrown at you, you probably deserve it.

~~

Oh and Vi’s defense of Quilford’s claim as only a town one is wrong on a couple of levels; for example “*why scum would choose bloody Census Taker as a fakeclaim, and then make it without provocation” because the information seems a lot more useful than it really is, gets the player town credit but is a role that scum wouldn’t bother killing so as scum it gets town cred for really minimal town benefit but we won’t go, “Why is Quilford still alive” on D5.

~~

VOTE: Kublai Khan

Can’t remember a single stance he’s taken all game; not good.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Starting from the top of the day, of the two names Sotty mentioned I think UT is the scummier of them because his play has been more “normal”. Normal/boring is scummier in my book than bad/weird.

I've seen UT's scumplay. What he has done ITT doesn't look like it.

I didn't realize I was your waiter just here to take your orders. Will there be anything else, ma'am? (Show me why that's the case, don't just tell me that it is)

Jason trying to make connections without flips is horrible play; even worse it seems like those are the reasons he’s voting for llamamarble.

But is he scum?

Bad votes himself onto the biggest, easiest wagon, seems likely.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: JasonT1981

Quilford stuff.

Look I agree it would be unorthodox play and if you're asking me if Quilford would be clever enough to set it up as a fake claim then I'd say no but that doesn't mean there's not someone on his team who didn't see the possibility and handed it off to him. In fact, four of the players in this game just played in a game where there was a modifided census taker (and I designed and ran the game) so despite VPB saying he hadn't seen a census taker before he just saw the results of one last game even as it got lost in your post restriction.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Starting from the top of the day, of the two names Sotty mentioned I think UT is the scummier of them because his play has been more “normal”. Normal/boring is scummier in my book than bad/weird.

What do you mean by "normal"? It seems to me that UT (at least yesterday) was giving people shit in a legitimate way. Where is your negativity toward him coming from?

Exactly, there was nothing technically wrong with UT's play but I will almost always find "nothing technically wrong with their play but can't remember anything they actually did" -> UT, KK, Ghostlin, Xvart more bothersome than odd or strange play.

unvote, vote:DDD

Your vote switch really just seems to come at Vi's behest. Since when are you so easily flapped?

You seem to be of the opinion that I really and truly thought KK was 100% scum and thus my vote switch was somehow a big revelation, what in my posts gave you that impression?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

You seem to be of the opinion that I really and truly thought KK was 100% scum and thus my vote switch was somehow a big revelation, what in my posts gave you that impression?

Well, it's not really that, I just expect you to be serious about your votes and it seemed to me like you moved rather easily for no reason other than a poke in the ribs. Listen, I'm going to be straight with you, I really want you to prove your towniness to me so we can just wreck some fools like in WWF. Unlike Vi or Sotty, I feel like you and I are able to lock in on each other's townieness without a doubt. That's something I want to be able to do and let the scum kill us off if they like. I can't have this middling read of you for the rest of the game.

The vote was serious in that I was trying to use it productively to feel out a player I didn't have much of a read on. I moved my vote because after my trial balloon went up their were decent reminders of why KK wasn't as likely to be scum. And that poke in the ribs was a catalyst for me to make the logical leap from bothersome argument to scumtell.

They're also talking about DDD's game. Tbh I don't really remember the census taker in that game. They died before revealing so it didn't much come into play.

It was a one-shot ability for the JOAT and the information was handed off to another player (Vi) and the information mostly got lost in her post restriction.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

More later, but DDDP's notion that my play being "normal" makes it scummy is, uh...

Well I guess, what exactly do you mean by normal?

Normal - conforming to the standard or the common type. When I'm mafia all I want to do is fade into the background of the game and the best way to do that is to play mafia by the book. Sure, everyone plays there own game but I'd suggest that's a pretty common behavior.

I'm gonna try this a different way, help me lynch this scumbag DDD...then I'll know you're town.

And you claim to know me.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand, scum have a vested interest in appearing town; while town have the truth of their alignment allowing them to be more unconventional. In my opinion that's the way the site meta WIFOM wheel is turned and hence I have town reads on Amrun and CES despite not thinking much of their play in this game and have unsubstantiated issues with the players I mentioned before.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

But the point is I think it's incredibly bad to say that people who aren't doing anything scummy are scummy by virtue of the fact that they're not doing anything scummy.

And if that was a final conclusion or the sole reason that I was pushing for a lynch your critcism would be valid. As a starting place to explore it's more than reasonable.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I realize he wasn't literally trying to lynch me at the moment, but his reasoning for finding me scummy was awful and I like to nip these things in the bud by calling people on bad logic

If you were trying to convince me you failed and I think that most people understand where my argument comes from and that it makes sense as a starting point for analysis.

can we talk more about DDDP's "not being scummy is scummy" idea? Because it seems like that's mildly important to note.

I do think he has a point in that scum would try and blend in, not try to act scummy, and let a lynch happen on a scummy player. HOWEVER lynches are based on what is scummy, and not what is not scummy.

And without anything else on you, the fact he tries to push it, is scummy.

Good vote is still good.

DDD, I see someone else in the last 25 posts who seems to have posted and nobody noticed or cared (nor should they; the posts are less than worthless). Your thoughts on that player?

Ghostlin was crazy tunneled on lew on D1, but so was I and I'm town so I can't make the argument that town wouldn't do that. I also like him taking apart Jason's bad pairing arguments today and he even carries that logic over to when VPB tries to make a chainsawing argument in regards to Amrun/Llama. Other than his lack of real push behind the person he's voting and my disinterest in that wagon his play seems pretty similar to my own. Definately not as good a vote as Jason; will try to compare to my created peerage group for him (UT, KK, Xvart) when I get a chance to put together a relative ranking within that group.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

will try to compare to my created peerage group for him (UT, KK, Xvart) when I get a chance to put together a relative ranking within that group.

UT absolutely heads the list as most likely to be scum; Vi says he was flaky and unsure as scum in the one game meta she referenced; well today all he's done is bitch at me for a non-case. KK should be challenging him other than the one town-tell, his pre-lew D1 is junk and there's been nothing going on for him D2 either; he's pretty much coasting on Vi's town-tell of him. Ghostlin probably goes right here, third in line. xvart actually has decent content when he chooses to show up, it's just that he makes my activity level look decent.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

UT absolutely heads the list as most likely to be scum; Vi says he was flaky and unsure as scum in the one game meta she referenced; well today all he's done is bitch at me for a non-case. KK should be challenging him other than the one town-tell, his pre-lew D1 is junk and there's been nothing going on for him D2 either; he's pretty much coasting on Vi's town-tell of him. Ghostlin probably goes right here, third in line. xvart actually has decent content when he chooses to show up, it's just that he makes my activity level look decent.

I should be challenging Untrod Tripod? Why? I don't really think he's that scummy. I'd prefer to be invested in calling out my top 3 which are you, Ghostlin and xvart.

And coasting on a town-tell isn't scummy, BTW.

You misunderstand, but that's because it's written poorly, my apologies. You shouldn't be challenging UT (well I mean you should but that's not the issue), but that you would be 1B on my list to UT's 1A is not for the noted town-tell about you.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Apparently my post

is

truly that badly written, dear lord. I'll try and re-write it completely when I get a chance.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

he's pretty much coasting on Vi's town-tell of him.

I'm not really sure what else that particular arrangement of words could mean.

It referenced KK; though I can see why you got confused because I slipped in a pronoun refering to you in between the subject and object.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Rewrite of earlier post so maybe it'll actually be comprehensible.

1) UT - Apparently Vi's meta experience and VPB (and Amrun?) conflicts with each other because the game Vi referenced UT was scum while VPB seems to insinuate that such behavior is his town meta. I'm not one to substitute other's opinions for my own anyways so with conflicting arguments about his meta I'm inclined to disregard it entirely. His sole purpose today has been to exaggerate my level of attack on him and defend himself against it and has yet to do anything really productive. Do not like.

2) KK - He would be 1B if not for Vi's town-tell; in review I clearly underestimated his influence on the lew wagon but in review I also didn't really care for the little things before the lew wagon and his play today is similarly underwhelming and also seems to have undue focus on my winnowing process.

3) Ghostlin - Don't really understand the wagon relative to other options, his play is pretty similar to mine I think so I can see town direction for most of it.

4) Xvart - Actually has decent content when he chooses to show up, it's just that he makes my activity level look decent.

~~

Of course that pool all falls behind Jason, he of the bad vote on the easy popular bandwagon today and being the guy not reading the thread.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDDP
There's a pretty big difference between saying that your argument for a scum read on me is completely illogical and "exaggerat[ing] your level of attack". I never said you were attacking me, merely that your "acting town is scummy" argument is completely insane. Which it is. Especially at the beginning of Day 2.

No, it's only "insane" when you present it as a base contradiction like you keep doing. For the people who've actually thought about what I'm saying they recognize that it's a not inaccurate analysis of current site meta.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

1) UT - Apparently Vi's meta experience and VPB (and Amrun?) conflicts with each other because the game Vi referenced UT was scum while VPB seems to insinuate that such behavior is his town meta.

Are you sure you read what I was saying at all?

Yes I read it, you both came to the same conclusion but you came to it from completely opposite meta reads as far as I could tell. Unless I'm missing something about the game you linked is that you argued that" UT basically hung out and said "I'm really not sure what to do or why I'm here, so give me a while and I might figure it out sometime"" as scum; and today he's hung out and while never said that in so many words he still hasn't even voted anyone today and all he seems interested in is badgering me about my analysis of site-meta.

It's pretty obvious that Jason should be lynched, since he's scum and it gives us information. Llam COULD be lynched solely based on the information we'd get. I have no idea how you people are equating my laziness to scumminess, I've been busy and genuinely trying to get reads. Just because I don't post every single though I have down here doesn't mean I am scum, it's how I play and some information doesn't always need to be shared.

"It gives us information" is the justification for a lynch that you have no actual justification for.

~~

Waiting to hear the logic of why Llama targeted who he did because right now that's the most bothersome thing for me about him, but I can't see myself voting for playing-like-an-idiot town Llama while shameless-bandwagoner Jason gets a pass.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

The third vote on one wagon is shameless bandwagoning...?

It was a rhetorical flourish but I'm still baffled to see you take no issue with a bad vote on a quickly developing but mediocre wagon; that's a classic scum spot and you're just looking the other way. The same way you're looking the other way that UT has basically behaved the exact same way you painted his meta in Cowboy Bebop Remix down to replacing out of the game, but no I'm the one drawing the vote.

Oh hey, the Llama wagon dies so Jason finally has to move his vote so it goes on the VI who Vi just called scum; what a tough and courageous vote that was.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Hey DDDP, you're a logic-focused player; do you think knowing there's a third party, there was 1 kill, and VPB was roleblocked are grounds for lynching him?

Those are not grounds for a lynch at this time because there are too many unfounded assumptions you have to make to get there. You have to assume Quilford is telling the truth, that the third party role is a killing role, and that in a role madness game there is no better reason for a missing kill. Now tomorrow if there's two kills then that would go a long way towards proving the first two assumptions given a dead vig and it might be a credible line of thought.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

As to voting for xvart? Or even DDD? They're both on my gut scummy side from when I was following the game instead of playing it, but you know me, I'm hesitant to vote unless I see something very solid I can sink my teeth into, or an ongoing pattern. I'm still rereading in depth (only at post 222 now) and haven't quite encountered anything that fits either of those bills, and there's still time before the day ends.

That's because there

isn't anything solid to them

. DDD jumped onto the lewarcher wagon and egged it on pretty hard before and after the claim, then jumped on jason Today for voting Llamarble in the middle of the pack for a mildly scummy vote and hasn't really done much since.

You know it's kind of hard to do anything with the Jason wagon when you insist on undermining it at every opportunity despite conceding that it's not a good vote that he made and that he's at least somewhat scummy just that you hate the other people on the wagon more.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

You know it's kind of hard to do anything with the Jason wagon when you insist on undermining it at every opportunity despite conceding that it's not a good vote that he made and that he's at least somewhat scummy just that you hate the other people on the wagon more.

I'm pretty sure I called him more likely to be Town D1. Next weak excuse please.

Didn't realize this was still D1. Lynch lewarcher82!

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Apologies for the absence, holidays and such.

You know it's kind of hard to do anything with the Jason wagon when you insist on undermining it at every opportunity despite conceding that it's not a good vote that he made and that he's at least somewhat scummy just that you hate the other people on the wagon more.

I'm pretty sure I called him more likely to be Town D1. Next weak excuse please.

Didn't realize this was still D1. Lynch lewarcher82!

Oh, so you're not claiming any other reasons to vote jason except his one vote Today. Just making sure.

*Bad vote
*Sitting on a bad vote forever
*Finally getting off the bad vote with a vote on a VI whose wagon was just approved by the biggest power broker in the game

That's three good reasons for today and I didn't even have to go back to D1 to look for more.

~~

Quilford's vote for Llama is absolutely dreadful; nothing changed from before, he didn't consider the role madness nature of the game. I mean it's just a really bad vote.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

also, where the fuck is DDD? Holiday is over bro. If you're trying to save your buddy Ghostlin by not being here, don't think I haven't noticed.

Maybe you missed the vote count two posts before yours where the Ghostlin and Jason wagons are basically equal which means that the lynch I've been touting all day finally has a chance to happen. I'm not going to abandon that at the last moment to jump over to some wagon that I'm extremely ambivalent about just because you and whoever else wants me to. Now given how much I've been ignored today; what purpose does me sitting here and telling everyone the same thing I've said all day really serve?

pedit: DDD is a fine lynch, but given the timeframe we have left I don't see it as viable.

Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro

(L-7)
Put up and/or shut up. All of you.

Hi, you already tried this once and it didn't work because everyone else who isn't you lapdog can see that the only reason I haven't been able to do anything today is that you insist on kneecapping my attempts. It's a beautiful circle you've constructed; I must be scum because I'm not doing anything productive but I can't do anything since you insist on driving the town in the opposite direction every time because I must be scum. It's fucking tiresome.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Now given how much I've been ignored today; what purpose does me sitting here and telling everyone the same thing I've said all day really serve?

"Just let me lurk, please."

*Shrug* A better option than mislynching me.