Mini 1238 - One After the Other - Over!

[Whiskers]

We haven't even had a votecount yet today, and you want to hammer??!?

Do you want me to

not

hammer? Seems like stalling to me. Since we haven't even needed a votecount today, and you're not trying to resist the lynch in any other way, yes, you are stalling.

[Whiskers]

To recap, it's a matter of,

Town: "We're going to lynch you."
NS: "Eh, okay."
Whiskers: "I'm going to hammer."
NS: "WHAT!? We haven't even had a votecount!?!"

Preedit:
Right, so, why do you care?

We may be able to get a backupmod. I'm working on it right now, in addition to replacements for Psuedo and Ash.

[Whiskers]

Sure.

Vote: Nopony Special

.

I also put up that ad in the Replacement thread, and PM'd Mr. Flay that we'll be needing a replacement mod, probably.

[Whiskers]

Well, I posted that we'd need a mod in the Replacement thread too. Junpei PM'd me about it (said that he'd replace in in a while, if we had a mod), and when I asked him, said that Mr. Flay handled that kind of stuff.

If Zito gets back to you (he usually does, in my experience, he's a good Overmod), I wouldn't mind you telling him to move the whole project over to me.

Then again, that makes it more likely that I'll see something I shouldn't. As you were.

[Whiskers]

Where is whispersilk?

She's been not particularly useful toDay. Actually, she's been not particularly present toDay either.

[Whiskers]

Don't worry, chk. MOD can't hear you.

Oh, unless-- did you actually GET a prod, or did you just come in here to avoid getting one?

[Whiskers]

I give a shit because if you really got a prod then we know the mod is here but hiding (or something). I give a shit because I will be so mad if this game is mod-abandoned and I will bitch to no end until I get some kind of justice ("until I get banned").

[Whiskers]

Thank you. I recall you having to fix a game like this for me a while ago too. That mod showed up.

I wish we could meet under better circumstances.

[Whiskers]

So, was that a town reaction to being lynched, or a scum reaction?

Also, I guess we DID need a votecount.

[Whiskers]

Jun, I have you down in ,y notes as scum.

[Whiskers]

Why were you trying to stall hyour lynch if you really didn't care anyway?

[Whiskers]

Wasn't a gambit. I thought I had hammered. You thought I had hammered.

You were trying treally hard to stall.
When I hammered you, you went, "welp, idfc."

[Whiskers]

Hiraki was clearing monk for having a new join date.
I said, if he's new, he shouldn't be setting up traps (it's rarely useful for a newbie to do so).
I said, if he was old (2008 join date), he'd be clear by now, for setting up traps. Which ALWAYS works when you're experienced.

[Whiskers]

It was Page 2. I don't know if I thought it was serious, but it appears to have heavy sarcasm. Let's keep in mind the fact that I think trying to clear somepony via joindate is absolutely asinine.

[Whiskers]

Wow, the flavour is just exactly the same.

Anyway, Junpei:

Well if you think that trying to clear "somepony via joindate is absolutely asinine", then why did you, in post 946, try to come up with a logical and serious justification for it? Why did you not assume you were joking?

Because sarcasm. It was in the post you're asking me about and it's in post 946. I did, in fact, have a reason, but I was saying that his Join date Didn't clear him.

What you asked about was a bit of sarcasm tacked on the end. "If he had a 2008 join date (and did what he was doing), he'd be

completely

cleared by now."

[Whiskers]

You know what I mean.

Hiraki was clearing monk for having a new join date.
I said, if he's new, he shouldn't be setting up traps (it's rarely useful for a newbie to do so).
I said, if he was old (2008 join date), he'd be clear by now, for setting up traps.

Which ALWAYS works when you're experienced.

^Underlined for sarcasm. This is explaining the sarcasm in post... w/e. The early one. I know it doesn't always really work, but in the original pst, was being sarcastic. This is a more blatant way of being sarcastic, explaining the post to you.

Do you really not understand what I mean? I feel like you're trying to twist my words, make me sound bad.

[Whiskers]

BBmolla, it isn't inherently scummy, I just think that it is bad play, so I was asking Whisker why she thought it wasn't, in case I was wrong. But the real story here is how Whiskers responded to my question.

It certainly

seems

as though you're trying to make me sound bad. If the real story is how I responded to your question, then why do you thank me for the clarification? Why do you need the clarification if you're just going to attack me for how I responded to your question?

[Whiskers]

I used all caps. Should I have used italics for the word "ALWAYS"?

[Whiskers]

HEre, but not for long. Sorry I'm late.

What's up?

[Whiskers]

Off the top of my head:

Killjoy - Townish. The scumtells he was attacked for early came mostly from being conditioned by epicmafia.com. His fake doctor claim is a little weird, but I suppose scum woul dhave stuck with it if it was working.

You - scummy; pseudo was scummy idr right now. He did something with some intereaction.

chkflip - null. HE was scum for a really long time and I don't want to stop calling him scum now. We'll see. Scum for apathy and being a jerkass. We totally had enough jerkass players here. I've been trying to get this guy lynched for the last three (?) game Days. The resistance to this makes me think maybe scum, but it's not the same kind of resistance as scum defending scum.

Whispersilk has been lurking. I don't fully remember,. I remember her being a nulltown read.

NS - admits to "not playing well," Admits to "not caring" if he's lynched, and yet, when he about to be lynched, he fights really hard (with nothing), and then when hammered, goes, "well, idfc."

Ashblade-- I vaguely remember him being a townread for something. Happened early in the game, I was defending him. I'd have to look back.


Also, I remember there being something about you (Junpei/Pseudo) being linked with Chkflip/Friend that I liked and strengthened my scumreads.

[Whiskers]

I will respond to your post. In the meantime, things like,
"* Votes for...monk, basically a sheep of Ashblade, which is funny because ASHBLADE IS NOT VOTING FOR MONK. YOU ARE VOTING THE WRONG PERSON TO SHEEP."
make me go "wtf." Ashblade was, in fact, voting for monk. Ashblade had voted for monk in the immediately previous post.

There is weird shit like this that makes me unable to qualify the case as a whole, or just pick out parts to explain or defend from. You read my ISO with my alignment decided, I guess?

I'll tackle this whole thing. I'll do it later.

[preedit]
Why do

you

assume there are three scum?

[Whiskers]

Sorry for this coming late, although it isn't that late, but regardless; here it is:

Junpei's Reads

Italicising every instance of the word "Whisker" as to not allow anyone to be confused with "Whisper".

The Case Against Whiskers

Day 1:

• Why did you vote Whisper then Pseudo in the same post?

I don't fucking remember. It was my first post of the game. I voted whispersilk because of some reasoning about something, and then votes pseudo, probably for RVS, probably bec ause he hadn't checked in.

• This post should be accompanied with a monk vote... but you vote whisper?

No, not really. I agreed "that I don't think monk is a good enough player to think that far ahead." I didn't say monk was a scum read. (Looking back, Friend's original post on this was because he didn't believe monk's "trap" was really a trap. I honestly don't currently remember my stance on that. Please, forgive me, it's been years and years.)

Then, Friend and whispersilk were bickering, and I said, "Friend's right," and Voted Whispersilk, something that Friend hadn't done.

• Bad post. Implies that twisting is not a scum tell and then answers a question directed at empking, not her. One which was asked by Whisper, in case you're wondering.

No, implies that Friend was twisting from, "nervous and sarcastic" to "paraphrased and sarcastic," exactly like I said in that post. I also said that changing the tone of a post to fit one's claims is sometimes okay. I stand by that. I do it later (in your case against me, no less!) and here, I didn't feel Friend had changed the tone to one that was non-representative of monk's original posts. Friend condensed it, nothing worse.

• Friend single handedly gets
  Whisker
  to unvote off of Whisper, but then
  Whisker
  proceeds to not vote anyone else, not even Ashblade, who her great friend Friend wants to kill.

In short, was a pressure vote. Should I have voted somepony else after? Ashblade wasn't a strong case, I didn't vote him. Luckily, TK presented a great spot for my vote in like, the very next post.

• So whisper is town because she's new, but
  Whiskers
  is just a month older than Whispers, and claims to not be a noob. Her RVS theory link is bad because she isn't even doing it right and is completely missing the point. Then says she wants to lynch Monk, but how does that make any sense? First off, her vote is on ThKoopa. Second off, this post has NOTHING to do with monk at all.

First: I was justifying my removal of vote from whispersilk. It wasn't a particularly hard or serious vote. I wasn't incredibly trusting of Friend's reasoning ("she's flail-town"), so I was justifying it to myself. ((I know, I know, this was in response to ZDenek's post, but I didn't really know why she was town either.)) My reasoning? Friend's: She's flail-town, and Mine: she's newish, and I'm in RVS.

I'm not doing WHAT about RVS righT? I'm missing WHAT point? IT was a link I had found just a few days before, (or maybe even that day), I posted it because it was great. ((btw, thank you for helping me find it again)) But how am I completely missing the point?

I say "I want to lynch monk." I was pursuing him on a line of questioning. I was scumhunting, even in RVS, which tied in to what I said before.
Other than that, idk why I was mentioning monk here.

• Will wait to judge Hiraki until whisper flips which is a bit strange because
  Whiskers
  is voting ThKoopa. In fact
  Whiskers
  thinks that Whispers is town, so how long does Whiskers plan to wait?

So?
...what's your point here?

• Votes for...monk, basically a sheep of Ashblade, which is funny because ASHBLADE IS NOT VOTING FOR MONK. YOU ARE VOTING THE WRONG PERSON TO SHEEP.

Dealt with.

• Oh, so the monk vote was just outside game influenced rage? I"m not buying that,
  Whiskers
  was voting for Ashblade, who is gaining steam as a wagon right now.

Vote: goddamnit

VOTE: monk

imma sheep ashblade here. Eh defends and attacks and doesn't afraid of anything.

More like, I'll sheep ashblade because monk is still pissing me off in [REDACTED]

^How about that? Also, I was voting for Ashblade... when? Maybe I just don't remember it, but it feels like you're making stuff up. Strike 2-- unless you can point me where you mean, when you say I was voting ashblade.

• Whiskers you did an ISO and stopped..? THE GAME IS NOT EVEN 6 PAGES LONG. There are only 6 posts in that ISO. And you stopped? This is practically a noncommittal read. Regardless, reads Ashblade town purely for having content.

Okay, well, I read four of them. #4 and #5 are walls. I read Ashblade as town for having content... doesn't that make sense? it makes sense to me. Posts without content are scummy; see chkflip. Therefore, on the flip side, posts full of content (not filler) are townny.

• Make no mistake, this is backtracking on the Ashblade town read.

No, it's not. It is, however, saying that, if I am sick of lurkers, and a player is not lurking, but posting content, I might be more inclined to favor them. I didn't back off, I didn't stop and say, "Oh, yeah, well, I guess he's not a townread then," I just acknowledged that it might not be the best towntell, and I moved on. Ashblade remained a town read, and he remained a townread for that reason.

• Doesn't defend against accusations of faking content, instead points out that Ashblade isn't faking content, which was never implied from the preceding post.

I dunno what happened here. Looking at my argument for the "content is a towntell" thing, though, maybe I was pointing out that they were using lack of content as a scumtell and this was the reverse of that. I really don't remember and hindsight is 20/20, but that's the best reason I can come up with now.

• Whiskers says she only has 1 read, and it is a town read on Ash, AND that read is based off of having content, nothing more. Not what the content is, that is irrelevant!

There's another issue in this post, but I'll deal with the one you addressed: I had a townread on Ashblade for his posting of content (already discussed, I believe it's a valid towntell), I list whispersilk as nullscum here, I still don't like her from the Friend/WS fight, and then monk I had dealt with-- I just didn't have any strong reads one way or another. You all think ashblade was a stretch-- I could have grasped for straws to look like I had some great reads, but I didn't grasp at straws, and I didn't have great reads. Why lie?

• Asking for explanations of town reads on oneself which is generically bad play. Honestly I'm confused. There is so much wrong with this ISO that people haven't pointed out, I feel like I'm missing something.

How is that bad play? Are you making up theory just to condemn me? I'm not allowed to question it? Gee, mafia should buddy town players all the time, they're not allowed to question it! Am I getting this right?
I asked Zden (as an afterthought, perhaps), as monk had asked him a post or so earlier -- a request which Zden had ignored.
But there was Mute, who said this:

Whiskers and Empking are my stronger town-reads, and I've my eye on Friend. Everyone else is in the middle.

I at least gave reasoning for my town reads. I didn't have many reads, but I had explained mine.

• Can someone spell opportunistic scum?

Can somepony spell refusing to answer questions?

• You can't remember the post that made you 100% have a strong scum read on Zdenek as opposed to your massive null reads not too long ago? Are you actually scumhunting?

Let's start here: When was I 100% sure of something? I don't even know what you're referencing here-- you're making this up? Putting words into my mouth? I didn't say anything here about not remembering a post...? or about having a 100% strong scum read on Zden.
I

was

saying that Friend looked scummy for resisting the Zden wagon and hunting lurkers instead. There you go, me acquiring reads.

• Says zdek is being uncooperative while in a conversation with him in which he is trying his best to cooperate with you.

Fuck, whatever, sure, MAYBE with ME. But I'm calling him out on going, "fuck this, you're a jerk and I'm not answering your questions" to Mute. UNCOOPERATIVE. Right?

• Let the record show that
  Whiskers
  finds bad play scummy, and also somehow finds asking if there is a miller scummy. Overall, enough reason to vote; but it begs the question, why wasn't he a scum read at all earlier on? All of these posts are after the post where
  Whiskers
  has no scum reads. And she just pulls them out of her pocket with no indication of them when she voted.

First: I find bad play scummy, I find asking about a miller scummy-- so? what does a miller have to do with anything? Does that make me scummy, or are you just pointing it out for fun? He wasn't a scum read earlier on because I wasn't focusing and hadn't done an iso or a case or anything yet. You keep pointing out how vague and readless I am -- and I am. I am until I go and do the ISOs to please monk.

Second: Because I pulled them out of an ISO, not my pocket. I went and found more reasons to be voting her-- I guess that's what you're saying is scummy? I voted her for the matters at hoof, then I built a case.
Actually, looking back, I'd put it like this: "Opportunistic case-building." Looks like I took the biggest wagon and expanded the case on it.
I felt Mute was in the right, I didn't have a vote out (I think?), and I voted against the other guy. Similar, in a sense, to my vote on whispersilk, except that this player already had a large wagon on him.

• Lol? Unvotes again but this time because Zdek sounds like she does when she is town who is being pressured? That's bad play, you can't use meta of two different people interchangeably. What makes this particularly bad is that you made a case against him, and he is your only recorded scum read, and you're going back on it because of this. Backtrack more off of town.

Why can't I use two metas interchangably? You can apparently use scumtells for all players, you can use towntells for all players-- let's put it like this: Acting the way in which Zden was acting, I felt like it was a town tell (like I act when cornered town). Universal across the board, right? Good thing I'll call it a tell now, instead of meta.
Yeah, I did make a case. I also get cases made against me as town. What am I supposed to say here?

• Nothing to vote over? You have NO suspicions, and you feel that that was a scum move, then vote! You are just spreading seeds of suspicion everywhere without backing any of it up or committing.

Again, this is me being transparent. I'm telling monk how I read it. I'm saying, "This looked like this to me."

• Holy backtrack/waffle/buddy batman!

IThis post exists because I had to keep explaining it and

keep

explaining it, that it looked scummy to me. I wasn't planning on pursuing it, since I knew what he meant. As before, why lie? I thought it looked scummy, could be considered scummy, but wasn't treating it as a big deal because I didn't think it was.

• Asks what about her is townie... again.

Yeah? At my old site, I'd always get townreads from players when I was scum. It makes me

super nervous

to be thought of and considered as town, because I feel like it's a scumtell-- like somepony's gonna turn around and say, "AHA, WHISKERS IS ONLY TOWN WHEN SHE'S SCUM!"
Yes, really.

• Says kill apathetic lurkers.. but what ever happened to not thinking that you should kill someone with just 5 posts;a lurker?

[Kill assholes who are also lurkers] verses [distract from my scumbuddy by hunting a lurker]. It's this distinction. If you don't understand, ask further.

• Misreps pseudo from something which basically said "gut read"; changed it to "because you find me scummy"

Sure, "misreps." He said one thing, I believed another thing. I believe he did

not

have a gut scumread against me (why is a gut read worth voting there?), and I believe that it was a OMGUS vote-- sure, call it a "gut read," you don't have any other case.

• Another misrep... The conversation went like this: >is there any reason to think mute is town? >is there any reason to think that mute is scum? >if you can't see by now why there is, then you can't read.

Uh, not, it didn't. Firstly, read what really happened, everypony, before you judge this one.
Secondly, I picked a particular phrasing. Rather than attacking Zdenek for Ad Hom and not explaining what questions of his weren't answered. I attacked him for phrasing it like that.
This is what you wanted me to point out:
>Is there any reason to think mute is town?
>yes.
>YOU'RE A DUMBASS AND I HATE YOU
This is what I did:
>Is there any reason to think mute is town?
>yes.
>Well, it's too early to tell.

Either that, or you think I'm misrepping monk, which, if I was, somehow, I was doing it in a favorable way.

• Several issues here: The fact that if Hiraki is scum that he'll keep dropping scum tells is irrelevant because that is true for EVERY scum, and is not a reason to not vote him at all. Secondly, you out Hiraki as likely PR, which is a bad thing to do from a town perspective. It's anti-town no matter how you paint it. Oh and you vote Zdek again; whatever happened to that meta of him being like you as town? Thrown out the window now that the wagon is getting full and you can jump on the mislynch?

No, not necessarily. scum don't always drop scumtells, Hiraki has a kind of strong personality, and I guess he always drop scumtells to try to stay alive.
I pointed out that he may be a PR, and again, this is his playstyle. He acts like he's a PR trying to avoid getting NKed. If he didn't want to be thought of that way, he'd change his playstyle? (Since it IS his playstyle, it's not outting him any more than outting him as a likely PR in any other game he's played up to this point. I'm outting his playstyle and what it looks like.)
Didn't you discredit my meta of him being like me as town? Furthermore, scroll up on that page. Zden does some more scummy stuff and I re-vote him. The wagon is no more full than before. When I unvoted, the wagon went from 5 votes to 4 votes, when I revoted, the wagon went from 4 votes to 5 votes. In that part at the very least, you're making up stuff to say I'm scummy. Call me a fencesitter, wishy-washy, but it's not like his wagon grew 10 feet since I unvoted.

Let's start here, if it's okay, we'll clear this part up and then I'll move onto Day 2?

[Whiskers]

EBWOP, New info in Red.

Sorry for this coming late, although it isn't that late, but regardless; here it is:

Junpei's Reads

Italicising every instance of the word "Whisker" as to not allow anyone to be confused with "Whisper".

The Case Against Whiskers

Day 1:

• Why did you vote Whisper then Pseudo in the same post?

I don't fucking remember. It was my first post of the game. I voted whispersilk because of some reasoning about something, and then votes pseudo, probably for RVS, probably bec ause he hadn't checked in.

• This post should be accompanied with a monk vote... but you vote whisper?

No, not really. I agreed "that I don't think monk is a good enough player to think that far ahead." I didn't say monk was a scum read. (Looking back, Friend's original post on this was because he didn't believe monk's "trap" was really a trap. I honestly don't currently remember my stance on that. Please, forgive me, it's been years and years.)

Then, Friend and whispersilk were bickering, and I said, "Friend's right," and Voted Whispersilk, something that Friend hadn't done.

• Bad post. Implies that twisting is not a scum tell and then answers a question directed at empking, not her. One which was asked by Whisper, in case you're wondering.

No, implies that Friend was twisting from, "nervous and sarcastic" to "paraphrased and sarcastic," exactly like I said in that post. I also said that changing the tone of a post to fit one's claims is sometimes okay. I stand by that. I do it later (in your case against me, no less!) and here, I didn't feel Friend had changed the tone to one that was non-representative of monk's original posts. Friend condensed it, nothing worse.

**

• Friend single handedly gets
  Whisker
  to unvote off of Whisper, but then
  Whisker
  proceeds to not vote anyone else, not even Ashblade, who her great friend Friend wants to kill.

In short, was a pressure vote. Should I have voted somepony else after? Ashblade wasn't a strong case, I didn't vote him. Luckily, TK presented a great spot for my vote in like, the very next post.

• So whisper is town because she's new, but
  Whiskers
  is just a month older than Whispers, and claims to not be a noob. Her RVS theory link is bad because she isn't even doing it right and is completely missing the point. Then says she wants to lynch Monk, but how does that make any sense? First off, her vote is on ThKoopa. Second off, this post has NOTHING to do with monk at all.

First: I was justifying my removal of vote from whispersilk. It wasn't a particularly hard or serious vote. I wasn't incredibly trusting of Friend's reasoning ("she's flail-town"), so I was justifying it to myself. ((I know, I know, this was in response to ZDenek's post, but I didn't really know why she was town either.)) My reasoning? Friend's: She's flail-town, and Mine: she's newish, and I'm in RVS.

I also am more experienced (I think) Than Whispersilk, but not on this site.

I'm not doing WHAT about RVS righT? I'm missing WHAT point? IT was a link I had found just a few days before, (or maybe even that day), I posted it because it was great. ((btw, thank you for helping me find it again)) But how am I completely missing the point?

I say "I want to lynch monk." I was pursuing him on a line of questioning. I was scumhunting, even in RVS, which tied in to what I said before.
Other than that, idk why I was mentioning monk here.

• Will wait to judge Hiraki until whisper flips which is a bit strange because
  Whiskers
  is voting ThKoopa. In fact
  Whiskers
  thinks that Whispers is town, so how long does Whiskers plan to wait?

So?
...what's your point here?

• Votes for...monk, basically a sheep of Ashblade, which is funny because ASHBLADE IS NOT VOTING FOR MONK. YOU ARE VOTING THE WRONG PERSON TO SHEEP.

Dealt with.

• Oh, so the monk vote was just outside game influenced rage? I"m not buying that,
  Whiskers
  was voting for Ashblade, who is gaining steam as a wagon right now.

Vote: goddamnit

VOTE: monk

imma sheep ashblade here. Eh defends and attacks and doesn't afraid of anything.

More like, I'll sheep ashblade because monk is still pissing me off in [REDACTED]

^How about that? Also, I was voting for Ashblade... when? Maybe I just don't remember it, but it feels like you're making stuff up. Strike 2-- unless you can point me where you mean, when you say I was voting ashblade.

• Whiskers you did an ISO and stopped..? THE GAME IS NOT EVEN 6 PAGES LONG. There are only 6 posts in that ISO. And you stopped? This is practically a noncommittal read. Regardless, reads Ashblade town purely for having content.

Okay, well, I read four of them. #4 and #5 are walls. I read Ashblade as town for having content... doesn't that make sense? it makes sense to me. Posts without content are scummy; see chkflip. Therefore, on the flip side, posts full of content (not filler) are townny.

• Make no mistake, this is backtracking on the Ashblade town read.

No, it's not. It is, however, saying that, if I am sick of lurkers, and a player is not lurking, but posting content, I might be more inclined to favor them. I didn't back off, I didn't stop and say, "Oh, yeah, well, I guess he's not a townread then," I just acknowledged that it might not be the best towntell, and I moved on. Ashblade remained a town read, and he remained a townread for that reason.

• Doesn't defend against accusations of faking content, instead points out that Ashblade isn't faking content, which was never implied from the preceding post.

I dunno what happened here. Looking at my argument for the "content is a towntell" thing, though, maybe I was pointing out that they were using lack of content as a scumtell and this was the reverse of that. I really don't remember and hindsight is 20/20, but that's the best reason I can come up with now.

• Whiskers says she only has 1 read, and it is a town read on Ash, AND that read is based off of having content, nothing more. Not what the content is, that is irrelevant!

There's another issue in this post, but I'll deal with the one you addressed: I had a townread on Ashblade for his posting of content (already discussed, I believe it's a valid towntell), I list whispersilk as nullscum here, I still don't like her from the Friend/WS fight, and then monk I had dealt with-- I just didn't have any strong reads one way or another. You all think ashblade was a stretch-- I could have grasped for straws to look like I had some great reads, but I didn't grasp at straws, and I didn't have great reads. Why lie?

• Asking for explanations of town reads on oneself which is generically bad play. Honestly I'm confused. There is so much wrong with this ISO that people haven't pointed out, I feel like I'm missing something.

How is that bad play? Are you making up theory just to condemn me? I'm not allowed to question it? Gee, mafia should buddy town players all the time, they're not allowed to question it! Am I getting this right?
I asked Zden (as an afterthought, perhaps), as monk had asked him a post or so earlier -- a request which Zden had ignored.
But there was Mute, who said this:

Whiskers and Empking are my stronger town-reads, and I've my eye on Friend. Everyone else is in the middle.

I at least gave reasoning for my town reads. I didn't have many reads, but I had explained mine.

• Can someone spell opportunistic scum?

Can somepony spell refusing to answer questions?

• You can't remember the post that made you 100% have a strong scum read on Zdenek as opposed to your massive null reads not too long ago? Are you actually scumhunting?

Let's start here: When was I 100% sure of something? I don't even know what you're referencing here-- you're making this up? Putting words into my mouth? I didn't say anything here about not remembering a post...? or about having a 100% strong scum read on Zden.
I

was

saying that Friend looked scummy for resisting the Zden wagon and hunting lurkers instead. There you go, me acquiring reads.

• Says zdek is being uncooperative while in a conversation with him in which he is trying his best to cooperate with you.

Fuck, whatever, sure, MAYBE with ME. But I'm calling him out on going, "fuck this, you're a jerk and I'm not answering your questions" to Mute. UNCOOPERATIVE. Right?

• Let the record show that
  Whiskers
  finds bad play scummy, and also somehow finds asking if there is a miller scummy. Overall, enough reason to vote; but it begs the question, why wasn't he a scum read at all earlier on? All of these posts are after the post where
  Whiskers
  has no scum reads. And she just pulls them out of her pocket with no indication of them when she voted.

First: I find bad play scummy, I find asking about a miller scummy-- so? what does a miller have to do with anything? Does that make me scummy, or are you just pointing it out for fun? He wasn't a scum read earlier on because I wasn't focusing and hadn't done an iso or a case or anything yet. You keep pointing out how vague and readless I am -- and I am. I am until I go and do the ISOs to please monk.

Second: Because I pulled them out of an ISO, not my pocket. I went and found more reasons to be voting her-- I guess that's what you're saying is scummy? I voted her for the matters at hoof, then I built a case.
Actually, looking back, I'd put it like this: "Opportunistic case-building." Looks like I took the biggest wagon and expanded the case on it.
I felt Mute was in the right, I didn't have a vote out (I think?), and I voted against the other guy. Similar, in a sense, to my vote on whispersilk, except that this player already had a large wagon on him.

• Lol? Unvotes again but this time because Zdek sounds like she does when she is town who is being pressured? That's bad play, you can't use meta of two different people interchangeably. What makes this particularly bad is that you made a case against him, and he is your only recorded scum read, and you're going back on it because of this. Backtrack more off of town.

Why can't I use two metas interchangably? You can apparently use scumtells for all players, you can use towntells for all players-- let's put it like this: Acting the way in which Zden was acting, I felt like it was a town tell (like I act when cornered town). Universal across the board, right? Good thing I'll call it a tell now, instead of meta.
Yeah, I did make a case. I also get cases made against me as town. What am I supposed to say here?

• Nothing to vote over? You have NO suspicions, and you feel that that was a scum move, then vote! You are just spreading seeds of suspicion everywhere without backing any of it up or committing.

Again, this is me being transparent. I'm telling monk how I read it. I'm saying, "This looked like this to me."

** Remember the part where I said it's okay to change the tone of a post to prove a point? (actually, to support a point.) This is it.

• Holy backtrack/waffle/buddy batman!

IThis post exists because I had to keep explaining it and

keep

explaining it, that it looked scummy to me. I wasn't planning on pursuing it, since I knew what he meant. As before, why lie? I thought it looked scummy, could be considered scummy, but wasn't treating it as a big deal because I didn't think it was.

**Explaining that I was, indeed changing it.

• Asks what about her is townie... again.

Yeah? At my old site, I'd always get townreads from players when I was scum. It makes me

super nervous

to be thought of and considered as town, because I feel like it's a scumtell-- like somepony's gonna turn around and say, "AHA, WHISKERS IS ONLY TOWN WHEN SHE'S SCUM!"
Yes, really.

• Says kill apathetic lurkers.. but what ever happened to not thinking that you should kill someone with just 5 posts;a lurker?

[Kill assholes who are also lurkers] verses [distract from my scumbuddy by hunting a lurker]. It's this distinction. If you don't understand, ask further.

• Misreps pseudo from something which basically said "gut read"; changed it to "because you find me scummy"

Sure, "misreps." He said one thing, I believed another thing. I believe he did

not

have a gut scumread against me (why is a gut read worth voting there?), and I believe that it was a OMGUS vote-- sure, call it a "gut read," you don't have any other case.

• Another misrep... The conversation went like this: >is there any reason to think mute is town? >is there any reason to think that mute is scum? >if you can't see by now why there is, then you can't read.

Uh, not, it didn't. Firstly, read what really happened, everypony, before you judge this one.
Secondly, I picked a particular phrasing. Rather than attacking Zdenek for Ad Hom and not explaining what questions of his weren't answered. I attacked him for phrasing it like that.
This is what you wanted me to point out:
>Is there any reason to think mute is town?
>yes.
>YOU'RE A DUMBASS AND I HATE YOU
This is what I did:
>Is there any reason to think mute is town?
>yes.
>Well, it's too early to tell.

Either that, or you think I'm misrepping monk, which, if I was, somehow, I was doing it in a favorable way.

• Several issues here: The fact that if Hiraki is scum that he'll keep dropping scum tells is irrelevant because that is true for EVERY scum, and is not a reason to not vote him at all. Secondly, you out Hiraki as likely PR, which is a bad thing to do from a town perspective. It's anti-town no matter how you paint it. Oh and you vote Zdek again; whatever happened to that meta of him being like you as town? Thrown out the window now that the wagon is getting full and you can jump on the mislynch?

No, not necessarily. scum don't always drop scumtells, Hiraki has a kind of strong personality, and I guess he always drop scumtells to try to stay alive.
I pointed out that he may be a PR, and again, this is his playstyle. He acts like he's a PR trying to avoid getting NKed. If he didn't want to be thought of that way, he'd change his playstyle? (Since it IS his playstyle, it's not outting him any more than outting him as a likely PR in any other game he's played up to this point. I'm outting his playstyle and what it looks like.)
Didn't you discredit my meta of him being like me as town? Furthermore, scroll up on that page. Zden does some more scummy stuff and I re-vote him. The wagon is no more full than before. When I unvoted, the wagon went from 5 votes to 4 votes, when I revoted, the wagon went from 4 votes to 5 votes. In that part at the very least, you're making up stuff to say I'm scummy. Call me a fencesitter, wishy-washy, but it's not like his wagon grew 10 feet since I unvoted.

Let's start here, if it's okay, we'll clear this part up and then I'll move onto Day 2?

[Whiskers]

I change a lot.
I'm described as a VI a lot.
I'm usually lynched early on (Day 1 or so) when I'm town, and usually not at all when I'm scum.
I play to have fun, and I like to win.
I prefer to draw mafia, as opposed to town, but

really

want to play a serial killer or a vig.
I've never replaced out of a game, and only had one prod, when I didn't realize that I'd been posting in the thread

about

the game, but not the game-thread.
I don't like answering questions about my timezone.
I often come across as a bit of a jerk, but I find that those players are a real big hit here at MS.net.
I'm still learning, and I still experiment.

[Whiskers]

+1 point to me

• This post should be accompanied with a monk vote... but you vote whisper?

No, not really. I agreed "that I don't think monk is a good enough player to think that far ahead." I didn't say monk was a scum read. (Looking back, Friend's original post on this was because he didn't believe monk's "trap" was really a trap. I honestly don't currently remember my stance on that. Please, forgive me, it's been years and years.)

Then, Friend and whispersilk were bickering, and I said, "Friend's right," and Voted Whispersilk, something that Friend hadn't done.

If monk could not think far ahead enough to where he could realistically set a trap, then the trap was fake. If he faked the trap and made up some excuse to vote in a blatant lie, he is most certainly scummy. I think it is safe to say that your stance on this was that you agreed that monk faked the trap. Yet... no vote.

Okay. That's a good point, I don't know why I didn't vote for him. You're right, and I don't know what happened. +1 point to you.

• Bad post. Implies that twisting is not a scum tell and then answers a question directed at empking, not her. One which was asked by Whisper, in case you're wondering.

No, implies that Friend was twisting from, "nervous and sarcastic" to "paraphrased and sarcastic," exactly like I said in that post. I also said that changing the tone of a post to fit one's claims is sometimes okay. I stand by that. I do it later (in your case against me, no less!) and here, I didn't feel Friend had changed the tone to one that was non-representative of monk's original posts. Friend condensed it, nothing worse.

**

Okay, lets quickly review what happened.
Friend said that monk said :"

LOL it was a trap Empking I've caught you as scum

"
To quote monk..:"

I set a trap, I didn't think you'd be the one to set it off, disappointing empking

"
In Friends' version there are two things we note that are different: Instead of a more calm, perhaps controlled tone (nervous wtf?) we get a more erratic and slang-versed tone. Also, "i've caught you as scum" is jumping to the conclusion that monk felt that empking was surely scum from that 'trap'. Do you still stand by your original decree that it was a modest change?

Hm... Yeah.... yeah. Even when you bring it back up with quotes and stuff, I don't think he changed the tone or meaning. "I set a trap, I didn't think you'd be the one to set it off" is the same thing as "I've caught you as scum." Actually, in monk's version, there's also the unspoken "you're my partner and I wish you hadn't set off my trap," but Friend doesn't include that.
Friend's version is jumping to the conclusion that monk felt Empking was scum from that trap-- monk

was

voting Empking. Haven't you been telling me to vote for scumreads? Whom else should you vote for? If you vote for scum-reads, and monk was voting, then yes, it could easily be inferred, that monk thought Empking was scum.
I don't think Friend made a major change. I support my previous answer.

• Friend single handedly gets
  Whisker
  to unvote off of Whisper, but then
  Whisker
  proceeds to not vote anyone else, not even Ashblade, who her great friend Friend wants to kill.

In short, was a pressure vote. Should I have voted somepony else after? Ashblade wasn't a strong case, I didn't vote him. Luckily, TK presented a great spot for my vote in like, the very next post.

Well the idea is that you vote who is most scummy. Ashblade case not being strong early on is fine because it is simply that; early in the game. If you gave credence to it, I'd expect you to vote Ashblade. TK's next post is irrelevant.

But I didn't give credence to it and I didn't vote for him. So...?
Also, an point in your original argument here is that even after I unvoted Whipsersilk, I didn't

Re

vote anypony. I did in my next post (I voted TK), so that's incorrect.

• So whisper is town because she's new, but
  Whiskers
  is just a month older than Whispers, and claims to not be a noob. Her RVS theory link is bad because she isn't even doing it right and is completely missing the point. Then says she wants to lynch Monk, but how does that make any sense? First off, her vote is on ThKoopa. Second off, this post has NOTHING to do with monk at all.

First: I was justifying my removal of vote from whispersilk. It wasn't a particularly hard or serious vote. I wasn't incredibly trusting of Friend's reasoning ("she's flail-town"), so I was justifying it to myself. ((I know, I know, this was in response to ZDenek's post, but I didn't really know why she was town either.)) My reasoning? Friend's: She's flail-town, and Mine: she's newish, and I'm in RVS.

I also am more experienced (I think) Than Whispersilk, but not on this site.

I'm not doing WHAT about RVS righT? I'm missing WHAT point? IT was a link I had found just a few days before, (or maybe even that day), I posted it because it was great. ((btw, thank you for helping me find it again)) But how am I completely missing the point?

I say "I want to lynch monk." I was pursuing him on a line of questioning. I was scumhunting, even in RVS, which tied in to what I said before.
Other than that, idk why I was mentioning monk here.

Town don't need to overjustify something like an unvote. If you felt you were still in RVS, then you shouldn't need to do that. You just made up some excuse not to vote her. By the way, I am not going to go into detail here, but you are not following what TSQ necessarily wanted to happen with the actions you took. Post-Game I will though.

I said here that I was justifying it to myself. My vote for whispersilk wasn't for strong reasons in the first place, my unvote wasn't strong, but then somepony came along and actually asked

why

she was town. I tried to kind of explain it-- it also was reason why I was unvoting so easily.

• Will wait to judge Hiraki until whisper flips which is a bit strange because
  Whiskers
  is voting ThKoopa. In fact
  Whiskers
  thinks that Whispers is town, so how long does Whiskers plan to wait?

So?
...what's your point here?

Well... if you are waiting to judge X until Y dies, and according to how you feel now, you don't want Y to die any time soon, you are basically submitting to never judge X for possibly till endgame. If you need to kill Whisper to read Hiraki, and you have no idea why Whisper is town, then vote whisper. Otherwise, try to read Hiraki as is. Going "well, until Y dies.. not much I can do" just looks like scum coming up with an excuse not to read a slot and make life easier on themselves.

One of Hiraki, whispersilk, or me would eventually die, therefore solving the whole problem. I was in no rush, and I was basing a part of my read on him, on her.
It was the

only

part of my read, at the time. I don't recall off the top of my head, but I believe I did get a read on him later, and whispersilk has never flipped.

• Oh, so the monk vote was just outside game influenced rage? I"m not buying that,
  Whiskers
  was voting for Ashblade, who is gaining steam as a wagon right now.

Vote: goddamnit

VOTE: monk

imma sheep ashblade here. Eh defends and attacks and doesn't afraid of anything.

More like, I'll sheep ashblade because monk is still pissing me off in [REDACTED]

^How about that? Also, I was voting for Ashblade... when? Maybe I just don't remember it, but it feels like you're making stuff up. Strike 2-- unless you can point me where you mean, when you say I was voting ashblade.

I think I meant you were voting Monk. But I think what I wanted to say was that you were 1) waffling 2) Bwing with your monk vote.

I may have been bandwagonning. Is that bad?
Look: I was the third vote on monk. There was Empking's vote, Ashblade's vote, and then I sheeped Ashblade.
I than, shortly after, unvoted. I was the player who made that a wagon-- three votes-- and then I unvoted it.
I

definitely

did number one-- I waffled with most of these players. I didn't have strong reads one way or another.

But I don't think you can call me out for bandwagoning -- and for waffling.

I waffled to come

off

of the bandwagon, so your #1 negates your #2.

• Whiskers you did an ISO and stopped..? THE GAME IS NOT EVEN 6 PAGES LONG. There are only 6 posts in that ISO. And you stopped? This is practically a noncommittal read. Regardless, reads Ashblade town purely for having content.

Okay, well, I read four of them. #4 and #5 are walls. I read Ashblade as town for having content... doesn't that make sense? it makes sense to me. Posts without content are scummy; see chkflip. Therefore, on the flip side, posts full of content (not filler) are townny.

If the inverse of all scumtells are town tells, then you get weird shit. For instance, it is a commonplace mafia tell that if one scumslips, they are scum. On the flipside however, if one does not scumslip, that is not a town tell; it is a null tell. Another example? Mafia are likely to be the ones who to mess up a PR plan. Does that mean that everyone who follows the PR plan is more likely to be town? No, not at all, it is a null tell, just like content.

Okay, but let's take it by a case by case basis-- actually, no, I have a better argument:
"not committing a scumtell" is not the same as "doing the opposite of a scumtell."
>It is commonplace that if one scumslips, they are scum. But if one

townslips

? Alright, you may say, but what is really a "townslip"? Can I change it to tells? If one "scumtells" they are scum? If one "towntells," they are town? Since I have to change the argument to make this one work, I'll move on to the next one.
>Mafia are likely to mess up a PR plan.
>Townies are more likely to aid a PR plan. -- you actually say this is not true, but I disagree.
^^Sorry, all of this is very SoC. Ugh. ask me to explain if you don't understand: [not doing something] is different from [doing the opposite of something].

The simplest way I can explain my townread on Ashblade is: He provided higher amounts of content:noncontent than other players. Though you may say content =/= protown, You have to agree that (in most cases) noncontent = antitown. Right? Ashblade was towny in comparison.

Why does "the nature of the content" matter? It's game-content. What could be bad about it?

• Make no mistake, this is backtracking on the Ashblade town read.

No, it's not. It is, however, saying that, if I am sick of lurkers, and a player is not lurking, but posting content, I might be more inclined to favor them. I didn't back off, I didn't stop and say, "Oh, yeah, well, I guess he's not a townread then," I just acknowledged that it might not be the best towntell, and I moved on. Ashblade remained a town read, and he remained a townread for that reason.

A less strong town read, you sounded confident when you declared that Ashblade was not scum and literally voted someone for the sake of voting with him. You backed down from that though; a backtrack doesn't have to be a 180, but a 50 degree shift is important still.

Just because I didn't fight him and say it was the best read ever and that he was stupid, I'm backtracking? (that was a misrep.) What should I have done? I acknowledged monk's point and kept my townread regardless and moved on.

• Doesn't defend against accusations of faking content, instead points out that Ashblade isn't faking content, which was never implied from the preceding post.

I dunno what happened here. Looking at my argument for the "content is a towntell" thing, though, maybe I was pointing out that they were using lack of content as a scumtell and this was the reverse of that. I really don't remember and hindsight is 20/20, but that's the best reason I can come up with now.

That's called deflection, and that is what I thought you were doing.

That may have been. But they were calling me scummy, accusing me of the opposite of what I was giving Ashblade towncred for. If they didn't think my tell on Ashblade was serious, I wasn't taking their tell on me seriously.

• Whiskers says she only has 1 read, and it is a town read on Ash, AND that read is based off of having content, nothing more. Not what the content is, that is irrelevant!

There's another issue in this post, but I'll deal with the one you addressed: I had a townread on Ashblade for his posting of content (already discussed, I believe it's a valid towntell), I list whispersilk as nullscum here, I still don't like her from the Friend/WS fight, and then monk I had dealt with-- I just didn't have any strong reads one way or another. You all think ashblade was a stretch-- I could have grasped for straws to look like I had some great reads, but I didn't grasp at straws, and I didn't have great reads. Why lie?

What other issue? First off, I'm nipping this "scum wouldn't do this" gimmick in the bud. Town wouldn't do this because town would be scumhunting and getting real reads, especially true for someone who is active like you. Also, if you believe that this isn't a valid scumtell (it most certainly IS), then why did you FoS ThKoopa for having a bunch of null reads? He could have made up reads if he wanted to at the time of your posting. You definitely only expressed 1 read which you need to hold any commitment to in that post.

So? I FoS'd Koopa for having a bunch of nullreads in a post which was ten feet long. Here I (pretty clearly, I think) said, "I only have this one read, none of my other reads are very good either."

I'm going to tell you what I think, and it may not be true, but

iirc

I was fairly busy and my other games didn't need me to really think hard, unless this was at the same time as the last few Days in Mini 1234, in which it took a LOT of my time and I spent the time there, not here.

I simply didn't put much effort into this game at that point. I was lazy. I waffled on most of the players, and didn't hunt hard or collect any great reads, or pursue scum.

• Asking for explanations of town reads on oneself which is generically bad play. Honestly I'm confused. There is so much wrong with this ISO that people haven't pointed out, I feel like I'm missing something.

How is that bad play? Are you making up theory just to condemn me? I'm not allowed to question it? Gee, mafia should buddy town players all the time, they're not allowed to question it! Am I getting this right?
I asked Zden (as an afterthought, perhaps), as monk had asked him a post or so earlier -- a request which Zden had ignored.
But there was Mute, who said this:

Whiskers and Empking are my stronger town-reads, and I've my eye on Friend. Everyone else is in the middle.

I at least gave reasoning for my town reads. I didn't have many reads, but I had explained mine.

I'm fairly sure that the idea is that you don't explain townreads (unless they directly conflict with your scum reads) as it gives mafia information that doesn't help find out who is scum. If scum know what you find to be townie, then they can manipulate you and you might not even realize it. But,

lets ask and see how the other players in the game feel on this subject

, as I was not expecting you to challenge that, and this is an axiom I learned on this site.

It does find who is scum. I find it's nice to explain everything because otherwise there is the opportunity to be buddying badscum who declares a townread on a known town player, so when the flip rolls around, they say, "see, see, I told ya!" This is possible even with a reason, but with a reason, it's not

for no reason,

which means fake (which means scum).
If you weren't expecting me to challenge this, why did you bring it up?

• Can someone spell opportunistic scum?

Can somepony spell refusing to answer questions?

The worse part about that post is that later on, when he says he'll answer the questions, you go on to refuse him. You are condemning him and offering no chance of redemption.

No. The scumtell was not answering questions. I didn't really care one way or another what the answers were, but I'd assume Mute did, since he asked them. The tell was, "imma be a jerk and not answer questions," and "im so sorry ill answer anything now just dont kill me plzzzzz!" didn't fix it.

• You can't remember the post that made you 100% have a strong scum read on Zdenek as opposed to your massive null reads not too long ago? Are you actually scumhunting?

Let's start here: When was I 100% sure of something? I don't even know what you're referencing here-- you're making this up? Putting words into my mouth? I didn't say anything here about not remembering a post...? or about having a 100% strong scum read on Zden.
I

was

saying that Friend looked scummy for resisting the Zden wagon and hunting lurkers instead. There you go, me acquiring reads.

That's not what I meant. I meant that that post was 100% the reason that you voted Zdenek. It was what caused your vote. You had him null before, then that post happened, then he was your top scum read. What % scum you felt he was is arbitrary, because you are likely to remember a very recent post that caused your vote. Especially considering zdenek immediately asked about 'which questions' you wanted answered in mutes' post.

Like I said, it wasn't about the answers, but about the presence of the answers.
If what % scum I felt he was is arbitrary,

why did you bring it up here?

I bandwagoned onto Zden (not looking back, just assuming the worst), then looked through his iso and made a case. That is the scummiest way you can construe it. scumtell? idts...

• Says zdek is being uncooperative while in a conversation with him in which he is trying his best to cooperate with you.

Fuck, whatever, sure, MAYBE with ME. But I'm calling him out on going, "fuck this, you're a jerk and I'm not answering your questions" to Mute. UNCOOPERATIVE. Right?

So then you should have realized he had a personal despite not unlike the one you had with Monk. And even if he didn't, you stated that you found him to be most suspicious for not answering those questions. Zdenek saw that, and wondered what questions which he did not answer made you feel that way, so he could answer them. That is not at all unreasonable; you condemned him without trial, so to speak.

I said I had "a personal despite" with monk. And that was Out-of-game.
He said "You're bad and I won't answer your post."
He was suspicious for, and maybe I need to clarify: He was suspicious for refusing to answer questions, not for not answering questions. By the time I called him out for it, the damage had been done, he had already said, "I'm not answering your questions."
Understand yet?

• Let the record show that
  Whiskers
  finds bad play scummy, and also somehow finds asking if there is a miller scummy. Overall, enough reason to vote; but it begs the question, why wasn't he a scum read at all earlier on? All of these posts are after the post where
  Whiskers
  has no scum reads. And she just pulls them out of her pocket with no indication of them when she voted.

First: I find bad play scummy, I find asking about a miller scummy-- so? what does a miller have to do with anything? Does that make me scummy, or are you just pointing it out for fun? He wasn't a scum read earlier on because I wasn't focusing and hadn't done an iso or a case or anything yet. You keep pointing out how vague and readless I am -- and I am. I am until I go and do the ISOs to please monk.

Second: Because I pulled them out of an ISO, not my pocket. I went and found more reasons to be voting her-- I guess that's what you're saying is scummy? I voted her for the matters at hoof, then I built a case.
Actually, looking back, I'd put it like this: "Opportunistic case-building." Looks like I took the biggest wagon and expanded the case on it.
I felt Mute was in the right, I didn't have a vote out (I think?), and I voted against the other guy. Similar, in a sense, to my vote on whispersilk, except that this player already had a large wagon on him.

Fair enough, you didn't notice. I must ask what you find scummy about asking if there is a miller in the setup; I will also ask if you honestly believe that it is okay not to have reads until someone asks you to ISO everyone.

The miller thing-- did I make a big deal about this? I don't remember it. Anyway, there was a thing in another game. It could be considered trying to out a cop or something, I don't know. There was another game where there was a miller and it was weird that somepony would ask for miller claims here. Trying to get your friends to claim miller? maybe the cop, trying to eliminate targets? maybe somepony looking for an easy lynch or something. idk. There was no reason for him to believe there was a cop, it would be like if I said, "Hmmm, Junpei, do you think there is a Serial Killer in this setup? There's no reason for us to think so, but do you think so?"

And no, it wasn't really acceptable for me to not have reads like I did. I have excuses for you, but the truth is, I should have put more effort into the game without having to be asked.

• Lol? Unvotes again but this time because Zdek sounds like she does when she is town who is being pressured? That's bad play, you can't use meta of two different people interchangeably. What makes this particularly bad is that you made a case against him, and he is your only recorded scum read, and you're going back on it because of this. Backtrack more off of town.

Why can't I use two metas interchangably? You can apparently use scumtells for all players, you can use towntells for all players-- let's put it like this: Acting the way in which Zden was acting, I felt like it was a town tell (like I act when cornered town). Universal across the board, right? Good thing I'll call it a tell now, instead of meta.
Yeah, I did make a case. I also get cases made against me as town. What am I supposed to say here?

Okay, then tell me why town are considerably more likely to act as he did (explain how he acted as well) as opposed to scum? As for not using two peoples' meta interchangebly, it is because mafia/town tells are things done that the broad spectrum of mafia roles and town roles are more susceptible to do. Meta tells are different; they are things that a certain player is likely to do as a certain alignment. You can't take, for instance, Fates play in game X as evidence that I am scum in game Y.

Firstly, you are incorrect because I can say that he was being a VI in a position similar to my VI play. It looked like me.
Now, aren't tells just a generalized meta? "Mafia don't like to No-Kill" gives us the idea that doctor-protects are cleared. "Not knowing the setup is town" is something that a town-aligned player did once, and then another one did, and the shared archmeta says that usually, a town-aligned player is less likely to pay attention to the setup.

In this case, it was, "VIs are more likely to act wild and try to be everywhere." His post previous to my unvote showed him trying to defend and reconcile really concisely and quickly. I remember my VI play as being-- whan I am caught town, I try to throw out last minute cases and all my real suspicions and help my faction in any way possible before I die.
That's one reason I hate players who get almost-lynched and say, "welp, fuck you." Either they are scum, or they are bad people and I hate them personally. That's why I hate players like Hiraki (not as much), Empking (not as much), chkflip (but apparently only this game), and the way Nopony Special acted at L-2 (but not L-1, for some reason). They actively try NOT to help their factions. It's like, "gee, I could help my faction, but I'm going to try hard NOT to."
Zdenek didn't do that. He was New, and he was flailing, and I thought he looked like noobtown for it. My read on him in any direction wasn't very strong, so I unvoted.

• Nothing to vote over? You have NO suspicions, and you feel that that was a scum move, then vote! You are just spreading seeds of suspicion everywhere without backing any of it up or committing.

Again, this is me being transparent. I'm telling monk how I read it. I'm saying, "This looked like this to me."

** Remember the part where I said it's okay to change the tone of a post to prove a point? (actually, to support a point.) This is it.

You posted a thought bubble of monks' which implied he was scum trying to take heat off of his buddy and prod him so that he can slip back in. If that's how you read it, then VOTE.

I implied that

it looked like

or that

I originally read it like

he was scum trying to take heat off of his buddy. I didn't think monk and Pseudo were partners. I don't know why.

• Holy backtrack/waffle/buddy batman!

IThis post exists because I had to keep explaining it and

keep

explaining it, that it looked scummy to me. I wasn't planning on pursuing it, since I knew what he meant. As before, why lie? I thought it looked scummy, could be considered scummy, but wasn't treating it as a big deal because I didn't think it was.

**Explaining that I was, indeed changing it.

Your response to my accusations is basically that yes you were backtracking/waffling/buddying. You committed a scum tell because like everyone else, you are not the god of mafia.

So...?

• Asks what about her is townie... again.

Yeah? At my old site, I'd always get townreads from players when I was scum. It makes me

super nervous

to be thought of and considered as town, because I feel like it's a scumtell-- like somepony's gonna turn around and say, "AHA, WHISKERS IS ONLY TOWN WHEN SHE'S SCUM!"
Yes, really.

But no one here knows that... so it makes no sense to assume that this group of people would know of your town = scum meta from another site.

doesnt' keep me from being paranoid. I guess the other thing is, that when I'm town, and I get called town, it means it could get me nightkilled. I'm just not comfortable with being called town.

• Says kill apathetic lurkers.. but what ever happened to not thinking that you should kill someone with just 5 posts;a lurker?

[Kill assholes who are also lurkers] verses [distract from my scumbuddy by hunting a lurker]. It's this distinction. If you don't understand, ask further.

I don't understand. You're saying that it is okay to kill a lurker if you have an emotional/personal grudge on their personality, but not okay if someone else is being suspected?

No, I mean it's okay to kill a lurker if they're being nasty and mean, if they have some reason to be suspected themselves, but--
Look. In this case, it was:
Monk: Pseudo isn't willing to play the game.
Friend: Gee, I don't think this guy is scummy, let my offer a lame alternative of some lurker for no reason other than he's lurking.

If Pseudo is town, he shouldn't be lurking. He should also be willing to play the game.
If... Zden is scum, what would keep Friend from trying to distract attention from him? Or even if Zden was town? This was Friend buddying Zden and trying to move a wagon off of him --

to a lurker

. Get it?

• Misreps pseudo from something which basically said "gut read"; changed it to "because you find me scummy"

Sure, "misreps." He said one thing, I believed another thing. I believe he did

not

have a gut scumread against me (why is a gut read worth voting there?), and I believe that it was a OMGUS vote-- sure, call it a "gut read," you don't have any other case.

For someone who has almost no reads at all, you are in no place to insult a gut read, as it is more than you have, and he, unlike you, realizes the importance of voting for who you think is most likely to be scum. But whatever, if you felt he was lying about his gut read, then I suppose there isn't much else I can say here.

I understand the importance of not voting randomly. I don't have any strong reads, or any reads at all, so I don't vote. I wasn't doing any fishing with my votes either.
I threw out some weak votes, and then drew them back in, because they were weak votes, and what's the point?

I think that his gut read, if he is town, was based on Omgus. I think that his Omgus, if he is scum, was called a "gut read" because he had nothing else.

• Another misrep... The conversation went like this: >is there any reason to think mute is town? >is there any reason to think that mute is scum? >if you can't see by now why there is, then you can't read.

Uh, not, it didn't. Firstly, read what really happened, everypony, before you judge this one.
Secondly, I picked a particular phrasing. Rather than attacking Zdenek for Ad Hom and not explaining what questions of his weren't answered. I attacked him for phrasing it like that.
This is what you wanted me to point out:
>Is there any reason to think mute is town?
>yes.
>YOU'RE A DUMBASS AND I HATE YOU
This is what I did:
>Is there any reason to think mute is town?
>yes.
>Well, it's too early to tell.

Either that, or you think I'm misrepping monk, which, if I was, somehow, I was doing it in a favorable way.

Uh what? I'm not sure what you're saying here. How do you get "YOU'RE A DUMBASS AND I HATE YOU" which is full of emotion and ad hominem from "I'm pretty sure that you can't read at this point, and since you're probably town, that's huge shame." In fact, how did you get "Well, it's too early to tell" from that? My mind is blown; Do you realize that he was saying that monk can't read if he can't see why Mute is scum? Probably because Zdenek had been posting dirt on Mute throughout the last few pages.

"You can't read"? Obviously, the players in this game are capable of reading. "You can't read" is the same as, "You're an idiot." So, it reads as, "You're an idiot (ad hom) and since you're probably town (buddying), that's a shame. (filler)" It's saying, "since oyu don't agree with me, you're stupid." It also calls him town, which is similar to saying, "You want to be my friend, don't you?"

"You're stupid, but you don't want to be stupid, right? So agree with me, then you will be smart!"


I get, "It's too early to tell" from, "at this point." Instead of going the route of, "You're so stupid you can't read,"
I went with the idea that, "You don't think he's scum? Well, you can't read at this point, so of course not."
Ask for more detail.

• Several issues here: The fact that if Hiraki is scum that he'll keep dropping scum tells is irrelevant because that is true for EVERY scum, and is not a reason to not vote him at all. Secondly, you out Hiraki as likely PR, which is a bad thing to do from a town perspective. It's anti-town no matter how you paint it. Oh and you vote Zdek again; whatever happened to that meta of him being like you as town? Thrown out the window now that the wagon is getting full and you can jump on the mislynch?

No, not necessarily. scum don't always drop scumtells, Hiraki has a kind of strong personality, and I guess he always drop scumtells to try to stay alive.
I pointed out that he may be a PR, and again, this is his playstyle. He acts like he's a PR trying to avoid getting NKed. If he didn't want to be thought of that way, he'd change his playstyle? (Since it IS his playstyle, it's not outting him any more than outting him as a likely PR in any other game he's played up to this point. I'm outting his playstyle and what it looks like.)
Didn't you discredit my meta of him being like me as town? Furthermore, scroll up on that page. Zden does some more scummy stuff and I re-vote him. The wagon is no more full than before. When I unvoted, the wagon went from 5 votes to 4 votes, when I revoted, the wagon went from 4 votes to 5 votes. In that part at the very least, you're making up stuff to say I'm scummy. Call me a fencesitter, wishy-washy, but it's not like his wagon grew 10 feet since I unvoted.

Okay, first of all, do you even know what it was the Zdenek was because accused of on that page? It was that he was saying people were scummy, but not voting them. The exact same thing that you've been doing all out this game. Only difference is that Zdenek had his vote in a credible spot the whole time he was doing that; he was actively scumhunting. Second of all, it doesn't matter if I think your meta is silly, because you did not think that, and it is your actions we are examining here. Thirdly, why would he drop scumtells to stay alive when dropping scumtells would further his death (hiraki)? How do you know it is his playstyle to act like a PR? How do you know that he wasn't actually a PR? Do you think that he assumes that town would not do something anti-town like try to out a PR?

Okay, first of all, Zdenek was being accused of voting for a player who he said was scummy for meta

instead

of who he thought was scummy for in-game stuff. I didn't have a meta case on somepony, so I wasn't voting for it while calling other players scum. In fact, I wasn't really calling other players scum a whole lot either.
My read on Zden was weak. little things here and there and I voted and unvoted. Yes. I flip-flopped. Cool one minute and lame the next.

Thridly, that's how Hiraki plays. HE plays in this way all the time. I have never seen him play another way. I don't remember if I had another game with him or something, I think I did. Look at his meta. He is often uncooperative and Snarky. He hasn't been evil this game (like chkflip and NS), but he still played normally.

Actually, scratch that, I'm absolutely sure I played with him in at least one other game. now:

dropping scumtells doesn't farther his death. He looks scummy and scum doesn't kill him, but stays on the edge so that when scum (or town, for that matter) tries to make a case against him, there really isn't anything there. He's a very careful player. He doesn't drop scumtells, but he always looks like he might be lynched the next day.
It's his playstyle because he plays like that. I don't know he's not actually a pr. He always plays like that. Maybe he assumes town wouldn't try to out a PR, Idk. Since he wasn't a PR, he probably didn't mind me calling him one, as it let him, a vt, draw the NK.

My response is in the green.

And mine orange.

Sorry, NS. I'll untangle this sometime later, maybe, or at least make it so that the colors are consistent (my plan: make some of them dark grey, the other person black, and all new responses in color).

[Whiskers]

Lol.

Junpei, if you're near done untangling it, I can fix my own post (in orange) so that it fits the new format. Okay?

[Whiskers]

>:|

Fine.

chkflip - null. HE was scum for a really long time and I don't want to stop calling him scum now. We'll see. Scum for apathy and being a jerkass. We totally had enough jerkass players here. I've been trying to get this guy lynched for the last three (?) game Days. The resistance to this makes me think maybe scum, but it's not the same kind of resistance as scum defending scum.

So he's very scummy, you've thought he's scum the whole game, and his resistance is not scum defending scum to you. And.. he's null.

That's ridiculous. Care to explain this particular read in more depth? I ask because I see little evidence of you coming to any real conclusions in this thread pertaining to scumhunting. These reads aren't encouraging at all either.

What changed: He started to play.
The resistance to his lynch didn't look like scum-protection to me, looked more like, "Oh well, I'd rather lynch this player over here." We were all ready to lynch chkflip a Day or so ago (or was it toDay?) and then something else, an even better lynch came up.
My scum on him was majorly dependent on his lack of game playing.
Other lynches have made themselves available, and perhaps even better lynches.

@Killjoy, when did you have suspicion against me?

[Whiskers]

So, did you ever make a case on me?

[Whiskers]

The opinions that I was scum for no reason? O-kay.

We'll finish the roasting of me and then maybe we could move onto you?

[Whiskers]

We should number them. And quote the last ones.
Just a suggestion.

If you don't want to quote the last ones (want to start fresh), number them, and I'll quote.

Also, I'm not the lynch? I thought you were against rushing into a NS lynch, since you thought I was scum. Why, you even voted for me.

Also, the reformatting was also for Killjoy, who can't handle this many colors.

[Whiskers]

No, no, I mean, "Point 1, Point 2, Point 3"

That way we can hold several conversations parallel to one another.

[Whiskers]

What if NS flips a normally powerful role, like Goon? Am I still #1?

[Whiskers]

So like, an extended Godfather?

[Whiskers]

Whispersilk's last post.

That was over a month ago, why have you been doing nothing?

Like, even now, you have the opportunity to do something, why don't you?

[Whiskers]

How much have you reformatted?

like I said, if you have reformatted the part we'd already did, I could reformat and add my update, and perhaps spped the whole thing along.

[Whiskers]

I'm not, we'll look into the sensitive eyes issue after you're finished with me.

Also -- -- --
-- -- --
Connecting Jun to NS.

Do you want it in a quote-chain format, dear?

[Whiskers]

God damn it, but I'm just cleaning up!

I've got it all formatted, I just need to make sure all my quote tags are correct. >:|

[Whiskers]

I get hung up with things linke Number 4.

If that's what you meant in the first place, then why isn't it what you

said

in the first place? Why didn't you just accuse me of "not voting your scum reads, evidence is here and here"? I feel like, "Well, Whiskers has come up with a suitable argument/defense, and I can't come up with a way to beat it, so now I will call her scummy for something else and dismiss the point, thereby getting the last word and giving her no credit for her response."
To reiterate:
Whiskers came up with a suitable argument. (My opinion)
You can't beat it down. (my assumption)
You call me scummy for something slightly related, but not really the original point at all. (fact)
You dismiss the point, saying, "You don't need to respond to these." (fact)
You get the last word. (Your assumption-- that I'm too cowardly to respond?)
You give me no credit for my response. (My assumption.)

You're waving your hand and saying, "Well, you talked me into a corner," but instead of saying, "You win on this point" or "well, that makes sense" or "We'll have to agree to disagree," You just say, "You talked me into a corner, so I'm going to pretend it never happened."

Tl;dr, I'm very frustrated. Add it to the frustration where you seem to just make stuff up about me, and when I respond to it, you adjust and say, "Oh well I

really

meant

this

!" Things like "Voting for Ashblade."

[Whiskers]

I will never pat you on the back and go "nice whiskers, good response! YOU WIN!", as I don't think you need the false-compliments to motivate you.

I lol't.

Sometimes you did give good defenses, and I credited you there. Some points, I will still believe that I can credit, some I will have to push as null simply because you are pulling cards I can't disprove (things like the newbie card; which you did NOT pull, but it is indisputable the same way), and some I will discard.

I never made things up about you, I just kept moving on and investigating you constantly, I'm not going to argue semantics (I've a habit for that, although I believe there are times when it is good to do so) with you, so I drop it and move on. Sometimes I really did mean something else, and you did the same thing a couple times.

I wish you would tell me where I'm doing well and where I'm lacking.

And you may not have made things up, but you certainly

looked

like you made things up. Whether misspoken or intentionally untrue, it looks funny when you accuse me of something that never happened, I express ??? and you have to explain yourself. Not just change a name and the point is valid, but change a name and the connotation of the point.

Also, since my entrance, it has been you and me. 5 slots are AWOL, and I want to start focusing on them.

Yes, and this is different from the rest of the game-- how? Watch me as I tear my hair out because I can't reciprocate your analysis, since you replaced in and can just defend any point with "I didn't do it!"

I'll respond to your stuff soonish. Probably tonight, no guantees.

[Whiskers]

Spoiler: 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, 20, 21, 23, 24, +filler.

3. Friends' version expresses far more confidence in the scumread than in monks' version is the problem... and the unspoken "you're my partner and I wish you hadn't set off my trap" is completely ridiculous, can you at least admit that?

What happened to "I'm not going to argue semantics?" Friend rewords and the meaning is still the same.
No, it's not ridiculous until you look back and see what alignment monk flipped. As it turns out, that's not the issue here. While it's an interesting point, I don't know why I brought it up.

4. I just am of the opinion that at any given point, you should be voting your top scum read, so your periods of not voting to me indicate that you have no legitimate suspects. I see no reason not to think this, and therefore find it suspicious.

I did not have any legitimate suspects. Is that bad? I mean, yeah, it's bad.

but is it scummy?

We've been over it before, I think, I didn't do much work early game.

5. Nothing for me to say here, I mean, people reading this will have to decide if that is just your personality (I'm not even sure how to describe that) or if you scumtelled. I honestly don't know at this point; it's not that you're bad, it's just that you are acting so completely different than anything I would expect from a competent player like you.

Where did you get the thing where I was competent?

6. This is bad too... like it's bad, and I can't argue it anymore other than to say that your point here is scummy. I mean it is flawed, and there's no way you should be content to go "meh, hiraki and whisper may be scum, but i'll know later, so no biggie!".

I'm at a loss that you are so upfront about this.

Why?

Will come back to 7 later, maybe.

Yay, a point for #8.

I understand and even concede your Point #9, provided it was an exaggeration for the sake of explanation.

#10: This is restrospective. It makes sense to me that that's what I was doing, but I really don't remember.

12. I expected you to concede to the point; I brought it up to show why I thought you were scum. As for the explaining town tells thing (my whole point), you win; I can't argue that you don't believe that it is a good idea to ask town tells of oneself. Generally though it is thought that if you ask how someone views you as town, you are worried about how you are received, and how you can act and appear to be town; which town shouldn't care about.

I had my posts numbered wrong at first, and thought you were saying this proved that content=town was the exception. Consider it that way. Reads with no reasoning? anti-town. Reasoning for reads (even townreads)=protown.

Will come back to 13 AND 7, apparently.


#14: Misunderstood the % bit. Gotcha now.

#16: Fair enough.

18. No, you are caught in this point; you should have voted here and you didn't.

Kay. We'll argue about it later then. I see the reason in dismissing this one in your favor, since my best argument is going to be something like, "BUT I THOUGHT SO, JUST TRUUUUST ME!"

#19, conceded.

20. Why is this answer different than 12?

Because there were two of them and I went in different directions when I responded to each of them in "steam-of-consciousness" style posting.
#12 is saying it's bad play, to which I respond, "No, transparency and content is good play."
#20 is in regards to me, so, "This is why I don't like being a town-read."

21. Well Friend thought he was scum flying under the radar without pressure, but whatever I can't argue this.

Yeah, but we already had a scumread

on

the radar. Rather than make a case why Pseudo(Junpei) was scum, Friend(chkflip) just said, *deadpan: "oh, no, don't lynch zden."

23. I don't think it was meant to be that harsh, but whatever, you misread him.

which is why I took it in the direction I did. Rather than accuse Zden of ad hom, I accused him of backpedaling.

#24: Believe it. Go read some Hiraki games. It's all like this.

" * You almost hammered on a town read?You would rather end the day prematurely than try to wagon someone else? You are hardly advocating at all for your opinion, you're practically coasting."

Yes. The Day was old. chkflip wasn't defending against any of my points, just jumping up and down and saying, "strawman, strawman!"
I gave him a chance to defend himself and he didn't and not only do I fail to see how the others failed to see he should be lynched for that, it enraged me and I just kept my vote on him for pretty much the rest of the game without much work, because my original case was still valid and he hadn't done anything to protect himself from my accusations.

" * Still haven't provided an explanation as to why he was only scum from being from EM."

I don't know. I looked back at my and his ISO at one point and was kind of confused about how I got the great town read on him. Since then, I've explained that that is

why

I had a town read on him, because it is. Whether it (him being town and having committed epicmafia-tells) is true or not, I don't know. I will have to go back and look. Okay?

Actually, I'll also have to look at the case against him, because if that can be disproven with, "well, it's like that on EM," then maybe I can re-conf-town him again.

I've already gotten everything I wanted to get out of my Day 1 case section though, so I'm only asking for the last 2 points.

SO! SHALL WE MOVE ON TO DAY 2 AND BEYOND!?

[Whiskers]

I'd like to highlight from

This post

to

This post.

[Whiskers]

Why? Why Chkflip? Why me? Why NS?

Could you give some fucking

explanations

for your reads? You just read the

whole fucking game

. You are fresh. You

must

have some reason for your foses.

[Whiskers]

I'm not dead because I haven't been nightkilled? I'm not sure how to answer the question beyond that.

[Whiskers]

If it is the case that as town, you are highly prone to dying early, then why is it that you say

i) you are town
ii) you have not died and it is no longer early.

Because both are true.

>I am town. (fact. disputable opinion to those of you who are not me)
>I am not dead. (fact)
>It is no longer early. (Generally accepted opinion)

I often die early as town. On several occasions, I've been lynched Day One.
It has also been the case, more recently, that I am not lynched Day One -- for two recent examples, see Mini 1234 and that one that I was in with Thor that I can't remember right now. Both of these, I was killed overnight between to LyLo Days (two scum, three town).

I have only been lynched Day One as scum once, and that was offsite, where it had become a policy to lynch me Day One.
I only have one Scum game on this site, a newbie game that I and my partner won perfectly.

Is this enough?

[Whiskers]

Unvote

You in a rush?

[Whiskers]

Is this the part of the game where I whip out the "No resistance to his wagon" tell?

[Whiskers]

In that case,

Vote: Nopony Special

.

I was saying that there is no resistance to your wagon, therefore, you're more likely to be town (as mafia would probably try, even a little bit, to save you). But, you know, no tells work on you!

[Whiskers]

[not really pre-edit]
Whenever.

[Whiskers]

...What are you extending it to?

[Whiskers]

Excellent reasoning, dear.

[Whiskers]

Worse in Lylo. Unvote.

[Whiskers]

...Why would scum kill for cop hunting?

[Whiskers]

Sorry, nevermind-- scum, hunting

for

the cop.
I'm a vanilla townie.
I'm also on a legitimate homework/school V/LA.

[Whiskers]

Um... I guess?
Unless

you

are scum, and he is town. No quicklynch comes, you say, "Oh, he MUST be scum, since no quicklynch," we lynch him, he flips town, game over, Scum.

[Whiskers]

Now we go back to plan A and scumhunt.

Why is Whispersilk not realizing it's LyLo good?

[Whiskers]

I'll be doing VC analysis, a bit. Like I said, I'm on V/LA, since the semester is almost over and I have not turned in Any assignments for most of my classes. It's a make-up-work-week for me.

[Whiskers]

Actually,

Vote:Whispersilk

If she's not scum, scum will just quickhammer, right?

[Whiskers]

EXCELLENT REBUTTAL!

[Whiskers]

OH MAN, SO MUCH WIFOM.

But seriously. Do you understand?

Whispersilk, do you have a case or, like, anything?

[Whiskers]

Yes, and? When she removes hers, I'll remove mine.
I doubt she's worried about a quickhammer on herself.

I doubt she's worried about a quickhammer on Jun, because why would scum be?

[Whiskers]

Oh, but Junpei, are you SURE that a big OMGUS vote isn't the most correct townie move in this situ?

[Whiskers]

Sorry-- during the Night Phase, I got bored, joined a game that has both Hiraki AND Parama in it.

[Whiskers]

1078, maybe?