Mini 1238 - One After the Other - Over!

Junpei · Post Post #930 (isolation #0) » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:46 pm

Hello everyone. I must ask for you not to hammer on Nobody Special just yet, as I would like to read and post thoughts. Tonight I am a bit busy, probably will start to read the game though, tomorrow I will get through it and post who I believe is scum and anything else that I find relevant.

Also I laughed at the person I am replacings' name; it's rather ironic.

Junpei · Post Post #945 (isolation #1) » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:17 pm

Alright, going to be reading off and on today, but I have something I'd like answered at any point, so may as well post it now to increase the timeliness of an answer.

Whiskers; why would 2008 join date = clear?
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p3411615

Junpei · Post Post #947 (isolation #2) » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:35 pm

He would NOT be clear for having an old join date and setting up a trap. Traps don't always work when you are experienced. That is very poor logic.

Junpei · Post Post #949 (isolation #3) » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:38 pm

Well if you think that trying to clear "somepony via joindate is absolutely asinine", then why did you, in post 946, try to come up with a logical and serious justification for it? Why did you not assume you were joking?

Junpei · Post Post #951 (isolation #4) » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:50 pm

BBmolla, it isn't inherently scummy, I just think that it is bad play, so I was asking Whisker why she thought it wasn't, in case I was wrong. But the real story here is how Whiskers responded to my question.

Junpei · Post Post #954 (isolation #5) » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:05 pm

So to be clear, you're claiming that you were being sarcastic in 946?

Junpei · Post Post #956 (isolation #6) » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:55 pm

Whiskers, only true masters of rhetoric could portray such sarcasm in text. So to be clear:

- You disagreed that join date indicated alignment
- You were sarcastic when saying that if he had a 2008 join date that he was clear town
- You were sarcastic when saying that traps always worked when experienced

Alright, thank you for the clarification. Moving on, I'm not making you sound bad, whiskers. What is, is. Once I finish my read, we'll see what is and what isn't; at least, from my point of view.

Junpei · Post Post #958 (isolation #7) » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:53 am

Because when I wrote that post I didn't know you were being sarcastic in 946. It looked like you tried to over-justify something, and then realized it was insensible, and changed your story.

Junpei · Post Post #960 (isolation #8) » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:46 pm

whiskers, post saying that you are here, I have something I want to say.

Junpei · Post Post #961 (isolation #9) » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:59 pm

Just finished reading, will do ISOs and get out some detailed reads soon enough, but Nobody Special... that is an awful claim. Specifically where you RB empking, there is no kill, and you don't push on him when the day starts.

Junpei · Post Post #963 (isolation #10) » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:30 pm

Not for long? Well, do as much as you can in the time you have, and post it.

Reads on all players with BRIEF reasoning as to why. Off the top of your head.

Go.

Junpei · Post Post #965 (isolation #11) » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:58 pm

In post 964, Whiskers wrote:
chkflip - null. HE was scum for a really long time and I don't want to stop calling him scum now. We'll see. Scum for apathy and being a jerkass. We totally had enough jerkass players here. I've been trying to get this guy lynched for the last three (?) game Days. The resistance to this makes me think maybe scum, but it's not the same kind of resistance as scum defending scum.

So he's very scummy, you've thought he's scum the whole game, and his resistance is not scum defending scum to you. And.. he's null.

That's ridiculous. Care to explain this particular read in more depth? I ask because I see little evidence of you coming to any real conclusions in this thread pertaining to scumhunting. These reads aren't encouraging at all either.

Junpei · Post Post #966 (isolation #12) » Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:48 am

If I post a huge wall, will you guys read it?

Junpei · Post Post #968 (isolation #13) » Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:57 am

Sorry for this coming late, although it isn't that late, but regardless; here it is:

Junpei's Reads

Italicising every instance of the word "Whisker" as to not allow anyone to be confused with "Whisper".

The Case Against Whiskers

Day 1:

Why did you vote Whisper then Pseudo in the same post?

This post should be accompanied with a monk vote... but you vote whisper?

Bad post. Implies that twisting is not a scum tell and then answers a question directed at empking, not her. One which was asked by Whisper, in case you're wondering.

Friend single handedly gets
Whisker
to unvote off of Whisper, but then
Whisker
proceeds to not vote anyone else, not even Ashblade, who her great friend Friend wants to kill.

So whisper is town because she's new, but
Whiskers
is just a month older than Whispers, and claims to not be a noob. Her RVS theory link is bad because she isn't even doing it right and is completely missing the point. Then says she wants to lynch Monk, but how does that make any sense? First off, her vote is on ThKoopa. Second off, this post has NOTHING to do with monk at all.

Will wait to judge Hiraki until whisper flips which is a bit strange because
Whiskers
is voting ThKoopa. In fact
Whiskers
thinks that Whispers is town, so how long does Whiskers plan to wait?

Votes for...monk, basically a sheep of Ashblade, which is funny because ASHBLADE IS NOT VOTING FOR MONK. YOU ARE VOTING THE WRONG PERSON TO SHEEP.

Oh, so the monk vote was just outside game influenced rage? I"m not buying that,
Whiskers
was voting for Ashblade, who is gaining steam as a wagon right now.

Whiskers you did an ISO and stopped..? THE GAME IS NOT EVEN 6 PAGES LONG. There are only 6 posts in that ISO. And you stopped? This is practically a noncommittal read. Regardless, reads Ashblade town purely for having content.

Make no mistake, this is backtracking on the Ashblade town read.

Doesn't defend against accusations of faking content, instead points out that Ashblade isn't faking content, which was never implied from the preceding post.

Whiskers says she only has 1 read, and it is a town read on Ash, AND that read is based off of having content, nothing more. Not what the content is, that is irrelevant!

Asking for explanations of town reads on oneself which is generically bad play. Honestly I'm confused. There is so much wrong with this ISO that people haven't pointed out, I feel like I'm missing something.

Can someone spell opportunistic scum?

You can't remember the post that made you 100% have a strong scum read on Zdenek as opposed to your massive null reads not too long ago? Are you actually scumhunting?

Says zdek is being uncooperative while in a conversation with him in which he is trying his best to cooperate with you.

Let the record show that
Whiskers
finds bad play scummy, and also somehow finds asking if there is a miller scummy. Overall, enough reason to vote; but it begs the question, why wasn't he a scum read at all earlier on? All of these posts are after the post where
Whiskers
has no scum reads. And she just pulls them out of her pocket with no indication of them when she voted.

Lol? Unvotes again but this time because Zdek sounds like she does when she is town who is being pressured? That's bad play, you can't use meta of two different people interchangeably. What makes this particularly bad is that you made a case against him, and he is your only recorded scum read, and you're going back on it because of this. Backtrack more off of town.

Nothing to vote over? You have NO suspicions, and you feel that that was a scum move, then vote! You are just spreading seeds of suspicion everywhere without backing any of it up or committing.

Holy backtrack/waffle/buddy batman!

Asks what about her is townie... again.

Says kill apathetic lurkers.. but what ever happened to not thinking that you should kill someone with just 5 posts;a lurker?

Misreps pseudo from something which basically said "gut read"; changed it to "because you find me scummy"

Another misrep... The conversation went like this: >is there any reason to think mute is town? >is there any reason to think that mute is scum? >if you can't see by now why there is, then you can't read.

Several issues here: The fact that if Hiraki is scum that he'll keep dropping scum tells is irrelevant because that is true for EVERY scum, and is not a reason to not vote him at all. Secondly, you out Hiraki as likely PR, which is a bad thing to do from a town perspective. It's anti-town no matter how you paint it. Oh and you vote Zdek again; whatever happened to that meta of him being like you as town? Thrown out the window now that the wagon is getting full and you can jump on the mislynch?

Day 2 onwards:

almost the same was true for you; practically no reads day 1. Evidenced by the fact that you vote Empking over 1 vote instead of any other analysis you may have gathered.

out of place vote; you have a solid scum read (albeit is pure meta) on Empking, but vote Hiraki for... why? you said this so maybe you are going for another lurker lynch?

You've hardly advocated for ANY lynch.

Yet another slight backtrack and non-committed vote by
Whiskers

THEN VOTE HIRAKI. Quite clearly opportunistic scum.

Just have to say: that reads shouldn't take you days to pump out. You should be able to just up and say who is scum and briefly why. You of all people (hyper-active onsite) shouldn't need days to come up with something to say.

Whiskers
' reads and wow, I'm not impressed at all. First off, these aren't really reads, this is
Whiskers
going back through the game and ISOing people and doing pbpa with no links, but lets see what her reads are:
- Waffling but says town on Monk
- Says that Killjoy is very EM-like and that there is something up with how Killjoy only had 1 suspicion day 1 and then suspects
  Whiskers
  , but somehow Killjoy is town.
- Ashblade is town for having similar thought process and for having content.
- Chkflip is scum
- Whisper is scum for I'm not sure why
Also,
Whiskers
outed a possible bread crumb! That is INCREDIBLY anti-town. Town would be hesitant to do that because no good could possibly come of it, only bad.

Okay.. so NS is scum... where's your vote?

Hey look, you agree that sarcasm doesn't work over the internet! So why were you riding me about not realizing you were being sarcastic?

awful awful post. Doesn't try to stop the monk wagon at all, just acknowledges that he thinks monk is scum and moves on, but goes on to waffle a little bit on his monk read a few posts later.

You almost hammered on a town read? You would rather end the day prematurely than try to wagon someone else? You are hardly advocating at all for your opinion, you're practically coasting.

Still haven't provided an explanation as to why he was only scum from being from EM.
PLEASE RESPOND TO THIS IN PARTICULAR

Classic "town is scummiest, I'd settle for my buddy, but town is scummiest".

In conclusion...

Whiskers

has done very little actual scumhunting as is evidenced by few reads, massive fluffing, votes not correlating with a town mindset, outing possible PRs inthread, showing distaste for the main wagons while doing almost nothing to stop them, lots of waffling/backtracking, being opportunistic, and having the lurker contradiction. I think that's everything... all my points are listed above, but

Whiskers'

play has shown me nothing town, and everything scum. I'm stymied that no one else is pushing on

Whiskers

.

Other Reads Include...:

2) Ashblade

SLIGHTLY TOWN

What makes you think 3 scum?

Other Notes:
Activity stagnated, and then eventually (after a brief period of activity) replaced out. This slot was never under great pressure, so I find that not to be the reason of replace out. Also the account hasn't logged on since October 9. BBmolla now holds the slot after over a month of it being empty.
@BBmolla
: How close are you to being done reading and stuff?

3) Mute/Nobody Special

SCUM

Not too sure on Mute. I can't see anything stick out as scummy to me, and I read Zdek's counterattack on Mute to see if I could see his viewpoint, but I simply don't understand it. I'll put more work into this later,
but if someone can explain it to me, the better.
Replaced out due to school, and has posted a little bit since, stagnated. Mostly his modded game though, so no big deal.

For Nobody Special, almost every single post is bad. Things like this that show very little commitment or reasoning, but effect the game as they are votes. Very few credible reads too. Literally every vote is bad, and pretty much every post is bad, I don't know any other way to comment on his play other than to say ISO him and see just how bad it is.

4) Whispersilk

SLIGHTLY TOWN

Very much liked her early game play, her interactions with Empking leave me thinking that she is town, but I won't credit that much because I have seen convincing bussing before. What I will credit though is that her thought process is transparent enough to where I find that I agree with her. But her play has stagnated and recently has given me no reason to think she is town.
Also she says that she's reading an 80 page game which I can only assume is referring to Ninja Mafia by CSL. But as that game has ended, Whisper was scum in that game, and everything she posted late in the game indicated that she in fact did NOT reread the game. And I see no reason to believe that scum would reread the game and then not post substantial evidence of this. This is an odd lie for lurking.
@Whisper
your thoughts on this?

5) Killjoy

TOWN

Really don't see any case against this guy. He's been scumhunting throughout, and been trying to push what he feels is right. His doc claim was... well what was it exactly? It was a huge risk. Had Empking been town, Killjoy would have been strung up. So, Killjoy is either confident town, or his chances of being mafia go quite up. I cannot find anything to indicate being unconfident, so I find no reason to disbelieve him.

6) Friend/Chkflip

LEANING TOWN

Friend fixated on one point (the nervous trap) for most of his time here. I suppose I saw some scumhunting, but in the end Friend does what he always does (well not always, but if you're reading this, you have to admit you have an addiction), and replaces out.
Chkflip gave an empty promise of reads on all the slots
@chkflip
would you mind doing this now? He has done a little scumhunting, but fluffed a more-than-average amount, and the highlight of his play is pointing out how bad Nobody Specials' claim was.

Vote: Whiskers

Nobody Special is a great lynch, but so is this, and Whiskers needs pressure to respond.

Junpei · Post Post #973 (isolation #14) » Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:29 am

BBmolla, I'd rather not give you the opportunity to possibly collaborate with scum pals in your catch up post.

Whisper, my bad, I thought that you made that post while Ninja Mafia was in LYLO, but I was wrong. I should have paid closer attention to the datestamp on that post.

I won't just let Whiskers go, I want to draw this out and confirm my scum read on her, even if NS is ultimately lynched. I could die at night, and I would rather do this now. Especially if I"m right, I don't want Whiskers getting extra time and getting collaboration with scumpals at night.

Whisper, do you think that there was reason for Ashblade to assume that there are 3 scum?

Junpei · Post Post #976 (isolation #15) » Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:58 am

Ugh crap, yeah you're right... I was looking at the VC I forgot to look at the other posts. There was a VC posted like 5 posts before so I didn't bother to. Anyway, I have 2 scum reads, and there is 1 flipped scum, but I do not assume that there are 3 scum, I just happen to have 2 scum reads.

And I did not read your ISO with your alignment decided. I read through your ISO in the same manner as everyone else, and found you to be very suspicious, so I gave you a closer look.

I await your response.

pedit: I was considering the case where NS is not mafia, BBmolla. I see no reason why to enter night before you catch up.

Junpei · Post Post #978 (isolation #16) » Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:41 am

I don't see how that is trying so hard to look town... I was asked why I did not want to delay the whiskers case to day 5, and that is certainly a reason.

Now that you're here, what are your reads on all slots, with reasons? Your ISO shows almost nothing.

Junpei · Post Post #981 (isolation #17) » Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:47 pm

Yeah Whiskers, it is best to do it in parts; I'll get to it soon if I have time and respond to everything you wrote.

What is your experience playing mafia? I don't want exact numbers or anything, but how good to you think you are at the game of mafia? Scale of 1-10, adjectives, however you want to explain.

Junpei · Post Post #985 (isolation #18) » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:04 am

In post 980, Whiskers wrote:

Why did you vote Whisper then Pseudo in the same post?
I don't fucking remember. It was my first post of the game. I voted whispersilk because of some reasoning about something, and then votes pseudo, probably for RVS, probably bec ause he hadn't checked in.

Don't remember. Okay, I don't know what else there is to say then.

This post should be accompanied with a monk vote... but you vote whisper?
No, not really. I agreed "that I don't think monk is a good enough player to think that far ahead." I didn't say monk was a scum read. (Looking back, Friend's original post on this was because he didn't believe monk's "trap" was really a trap. I honestly don't currently remember my stance on that. Please, forgive me, it's been years and years.)

Then, Friend and whispersilk were bickering, and I said, "Friend's right," and Voted Whispersilk, something that Friend hadn't done.

If monk could not think far ahead enough to where he could realistically set a trap, then the trap was fake. If he faked the trap and made up some excuse to vote in a blatant lie, he is most certainly scummy. I think it is safe to say that your stance on this was that you agreed that monk faked the trap. Yet... no vote.

Bad post. Implies that twisting is not a scum tell and then answers a question directed at empking, not her. One which was asked by Whisper, in case you're wondering.
No, implies that Friend was twisting from, "nervous and sarcastic" to "paraphrased and sarcastic," exactly like I said in that post. I also said that changing the tone of a post to fit one's claims is sometimes okay. I stand by that. I do it later (in your case against me, no less!) and here, I didn't feel Friend had changed the tone to one that was non-representative of monk's original posts. Friend condensed it, nothing worse.
**

Okay, lets quickly review what happened.
Friend said that monk said :"
LOL it was a trap Empking I've caught you as scum
"
To quote monk..:"
I set a trap, I didn't think you'd be the one to set it off, disappointing empking
"
In Friends' version there are two things we note that are different: Instead of a more calm, perhaps controlled tone (nervous wtf?) we get a more erratic and slang-versed tone. Also, "i've caught you as scum" is jumping to the conclusion that monk felt that empking was surely scum from that 'trap'. Do you still stand by your original decree that it was a modest change?

Friend single handedly gets
Whisker
to unvote off of Whisper, but then
Whisker
proceeds to not vote anyone else, not even Ashblade, who her great friend Friend wants to kill.
In short, was a pressure vote. Should I have voted somepony else after? Ashblade wasn't a strong case, I didn't vote him. Luckily, TK presented a great spot for my vote in like, the very next post.

Well the idea is that you vote who is most scummy. Ashblade case not being strong early on is fine because it is simply that; early in the game. If you gave credence to it, I'd expect you to vote Ashblade. TK's next post is irrelevant.

So whisper is town because she's new, but
Whiskers
is just a month older than Whispers, and claims to not be a noob. Her RVS theory link is bad because she isn't even doing it right and is completely missing the point. Then says she wants to lynch Monk, but how does that make any sense? First off, her vote is on ThKoopa. Second off, this post has NOTHING to do with monk at all.
First: I was justifying my removal of vote from whispersilk. It wasn't a particularly hard or serious vote. I wasn't incredibly trusting of Friend's reasoning ("she's flail-town"), so I was justifying it to myself. ((I know, I know, this was in response to ZDenek's post, but I didn't really know why she was town either.)) My reasoning? Friend's: She's flail-town, and Mine: she's newish, and I'm in RVS.
I also am more experienced (I think) Than Whispersilk, but not on this site.

I'm not doing WHAT about RVS righT? I'm missing WHAT point? IT was a link I had found just a few days before, (or maybe even that day), I posted it because it was great. ((btw, thank you for helping me find it again)) But how am I completely missing the point?

I say "I want to lynch monk." I was pursuing him on a line of questioning. I was scumhunting, even in RVS, which tied in to what I said before.
Other than that, idk why I was mentioning monk here.

Town don't need to overjustify something like an unvote. If you felt you were still in RVS, then you shouldn't need to do that. You just made up some excuse not to vote her. By the way, I am not going to go into detail here, but you are not following what TSQ necessarily wanted to happen with the actions you took. Post-Game I will though.

Will wait to judge Hiraki until whisper flips which is a bit strange because
Whiskers
is voting ThKoopa. In fact
Whiskers
thinks that Whispers is town, so how long does Whiskers plan to wait?

So?
...what's your point here?

Well... if you are waiting to judge X until Y dies, and according to how you feel now, you don't want Y to die any time soon, you are basically submitting to never judge X for possibly till endgame. If you need to kill Whisper to read Hiraki, and you have no idea why Whisper is town, then vote whisper. Otherwise, try to read Hiraki as is. Going "well, until Y dies.. not much I can do" just looks like scum coming up with an excuse not to read a slot and make life easier on themselves.

Votes for...monk, basically a sheep of Ashblade, which is funny because ASHBLADE IS NOT VOTING FOR MONK. YOU ARE VOTING THE WRONG PERSON TO SHEEP.
Dealt with.

Yep.

Oh, so the monk vote was just outside game influenced rage? I"m not buying that,
Whiskers
was voting for Ashblade, who is gaining steam as a wagon right now.
In post 137, monk wrote:
In post 132, Whiskers wrote:
Vote: goddamnit

VOTE: monk

imma sheep ashblade here. Eh defends and attacks and doesn't afraid of anything.

More like, I'll sheep ashblade because monk is still pissing me off in [REDACTED]

^How about that? Also, I was voting for Ashblade... when? Maybe I just don't remember it, but it feels like you're making stuff up. Strike 2-- unless you can point me where you mean, when you say I was voting ashblade.

I think I meant you were voting Monk. But I think what I wanted to say was that you were 1) waffling 2) Bwing with your monk vote.

Whiskers you did an ISO and stopped..? THE GAME IS NOT EVEN 6 PAGES LONG. There are only 6 posts in that ISO. And you stopped? This is practically a noncommittal read. Regardless, reads Ashblade town purely for having content.
Okay, well, I read four of them. #4 and #5 are walls. I read Ashblade as town for having content... doesn't that make sense? it makes sense to me. Posts without content are scummy; see chkflip. Therefore, on the flip side, posts full of content (not filler) are townny.

If the inverse of all scumtells are town tells, then you get weird shit. For instance, it is a commonplace mafia tell that if one scumslips, they are scum. On the flipside however, if one does not scumslip, that is not a town tell; it is a null tell. Another example? Mafia are likely to be the ones who to mess up a PR plan. Does that mean that everyone who follows the PR plan is more likely to be town? No, not at all, it is a null tell, just like content.

Make no mistake, this is backtracking on the Ashblade town read.
No, it's not. It is, however, saying that, if I am sick of lurkers, and a player is not lurking, but posting content, I might be more inclined to favor them. I didn't back off, I didn't stop and say, "Oh, yeah, well, I guess he's not a townread then," I just acknowledged that it might not be the best towntell, and I moved on. Ashblade remained a town read, and he remained a townread for that reason.

A less strong town read, you sounded confident when you declared that Ashblade was not scum and literally voted someone for the sake of voting with him. You backed down from that though; a backtrack doesn't have to be a 180, but a 50 degree shift is important still.

Doesn't defend against accusations of faking content, instead points out that Ashblade isn't faking content, which was never implied from the preceding post.
I dunno what happened here. Looking at my argument for the "content is a towntell" thing, though, maybe I was pointing out that they were using lack of content as a scumtell and this was the reverse of that. I really don't remember and hindsight is 20/20, but that's the best reason I can come up with now.

That's called deflection, and that is what I thought you were doing.

Whiskers says she only has 1 read, and it is a town read on Ash, AND that read is based off of having content, nothing more. Not what the content is, that is irrelevant!
There's another issue in this post, but I'll deal with the one you addressed: I had a townread on Ashblade for his posting of content (already discussed, I believe it's a valid towntell), I list whispersilk as nullscum here, I still don't like her from the Friend/WS fight, and then monk I had dealt with-- I just didn't have any strong reads one way or another. You all think ashblade was a stretch-- I could have grasped for straws to look like I had some great reads, but I didn't grasp at straws, and I didn't have great reads. Why lie?

What other issue? First off, I'm nipping this "scum wouldn't do this" gimmick in the bud. Town wouldn't do this because town would be scumhunting and getting real reads, especially true for someone who is active like you. Also, if you believe that this isn't a valid scumtell (it most certainly IS), then why did you FoS ThKoopa for having a bunch of null reads? He could have made up reads if he wanted to at the time of your posting. You definitely only expressed 1 read which you need to hold any commitment to in that post.

Asking for explanations of town reads on oneself which is generically bad play. Honestly I'm confused. There is so much wrong with this ISO that people haven't pointed out, I feel like I'm missing something.
How is that bad play? Are you making up theory just to condemn me? I'm not allowed to question it? Gee, mafia should buddy town players all the time, they're not allowed to question it! Am I getting this right?
I asked Zden (as an afterthought, perhaps), as monk had asked him a post or so earlier -- a request which Zden had ignored.
But there was Mute, who said this:

In post 167, Mute wrote:Whiskers and Empking are my stronger town-reads, and I've my eye on Friend. Everyone else is in the middle.
I at least gave reasoning for my town reads. I didn't have many reads, but I had explained mine.

I'm fairly sure that the idea is that you don't explain townreads (unless they directly conflict with your scum reads) as it gives mafia information that doesn't help find out who is scum. If scum know what you find to be townie, then they can manipulate you and you might not even realize it. But,
lets ask and see how the other players in the game feel on this subject
, as I was not expecting you to challenge that, and this is an axiom I learned on this site.

Can someone spell opportunistic scum?
Can somepony spell refusing to answer questions?

The worse part about that post is that later on, when he says he'll answer the questions, you go on to refuse him. You are condemning him and offering no chance of redemption.

You can't remember the post that made you 100% have a strong scum read on Zdenek as opposed to your massive null reads not too long ago? Are you actually scumhunting?
Let's start here: When was I 100% sure of something? I don't even know what you're referencing here-- you're making this up? Putting words into my mouth? I didn't say anything here about not remembering a post...? or about having a 100% strong scum read on Zden.
I
was
saying that Friend looked scummy for resisting the Zden wagon and hunting lurkers instead. There you go, me acquiring reads.

That's not what I meant. I meant that that post was 100% the reason that you voted Zdenek. It was what caused your vote. You had him null before, then that post happened, then he was your top scum read. What % scum you felt he was is arbitrary, because you are likely to remember a very recent post that caused your vote. Especially considering zdenek immediately asked about 'which questions' you wanted answered in mutes' post.

Says zdek is being uncooperative while in a conversation with him in which he is trying his best to cooperate with you.
Fuck, whatever, sure, MAYBE with ME. But I'm calling him out on going, "fuck this, you're a jerk and I'm not answering your questions" to Mute. UNCOOPERATIVE. Right?

So then you should have realized he had a personal despite not unlike the one you had with Monk. And even if he didn't, you stated that you found him to be most suspicious for not answering those questions. Zdenek saw that, and wondered what questions which he did not answer made you feel that way, so he could answer them. That is not at all unreasonable; you condemned him without trial, so to speak.

Let the record show that
Whiskers
finds bad play scummy, and also somehow finds asking if there is a miller scummy. Overall, enough reason to vote; but it begs the question, why wasn't he a scum read at all earlier on? All of these posts are after the post where
Whiskers
has no scum reads. And she just pulls them out of her pocket with no indication of them when she voted.
First: I find bad play scummy, I find asking about a miller scummy-- so? what does a miller have to do with anything? Does that make me scummy, or are you just pointing it out for fun? He wasn't a scum read earlier on because I wasn't focusing and hadn't done an iso or a case or anything yet. You keep pointing out how vague and readless I am -- and I am. I am until I go and do the ISOs to please monk.

Second: Because I pulled them out of an ISO, not my pocket. I went and found more reasons to be voting her-- I guess that's what you're saying is scummy? I voted her for the matters at hoof, then I built a case.
Actually, looking back, I'd put it like this: "Opportunistic case-building." Looks like I took the biggest wagon and expanded the case on it.
I felt Mute was in the right, I didn't have a vote out (I think?), and I voted against the other guy. Similar, in a sense, to my vote on whispersilk, except that this player already had a large wagon on him.

Fair enough, you didn't notice. I must ask what you find scummy about asking if there is a miller in the setup; I will also ask if you honestly believe that it is okay not to have reads until someone asks you to ISO everyone.

Lol? Unvotes again but this time because Zdek sounds like she does when she is town who is being pressured? That's bad play, you can't use meta of two different people interchangeably. What makes this particularly bad is that you made a case against him, and he is your only recorded scum read, and you're going back on it because of this. Backtrack more off of town.
Why can't I use two metas interchangably? You can apparently use scumtells for all players, you can use towntells for all players-- let's put it like this: Acting the way in which Zden was acting, I felt like it was a town tell (like I act when cornered town). Universal across the board, right? Good thing I'll call it a tell now, instead of meta.
Yeah, I did make a case. I also get cases made against me as town. What am I supposed to say here?

Okay, then tell me why town are considerably more likely to act as he did (explain how he acted as well) as opposed to scum? As for not using two peoples' meta interchangebly, it is because mafia/town tells are things done that the broad spectrum of mafia roles and town roles are more susceptible to do. Meta tells are different; they are things that a certain player is likely to do as a certain alignment. You can't take, for instance, Fates play in game X as evidence that I am scum in game Y.

Nothing to vote over? You have NO suspicions, and you feel that that was a scum move, then vote! You are just spreading seeds of suspicion everywhere without backing any of it up or committing.
Again, this is me being transparent. I'm telling monk how I read it. I'm saying, "This looked like this to me."
** Remember the part where I said it's okay to change the tone of a post to prove a point? (actually, to support a point.) This is it.

You posted a thought bubble of monks' which implied he was scum trying to take heat off of his buddy and prod him so that he can slip back in. If that's how you read it, then VOTE.

Holy backtrack/waffle/buddy batman!
IThis post exists because I had to keep explaining it and
keep
explaining it, that it looked scummy to me. I wasn't planning on pursuing it, since I knew what he meant. As before, why lie? I thought it looked scummy, could be considered scummy, but wasn't treating it as a big deal because I didn't think it was.
**Explaining that I was, indeed changing it.

Your response to my accusations is basically that yes you were backtracking/waffling/buddying. You committed a scum tell because like everyone else, you are not the god of mafia.

Asks what about her is townie... again.
Yeah? At my old site, I'd always get townreads from players when I was scum. It makes me
super nervous
to be thought of and considered as town, because I feel like it's a scumtell-- like somepony's gonna turn around and say, "AHA, WHISKERS IS ONLY TOWN WHEN SHE'S SCUM!"
Yes, really.

But no one here knows that... so it makes no sense to assume that this group of people would know of your town = scum meta from another site.

Says kill apathetic lurkers.. but what ever happened to not thinking that you should kill someone with just 5 posts;a lurker?
[Kill assholes who are also lurkers] verses [distract from my scumbuddy by hunting a lurker]. It's this distinction. If you don't understand, ask further.

I don't understand. You're saying that it is okay to kill a lurker if you have an emotional/personal grudge on their personality, but not okay if someone else is being suspected?

Misreps pseudo from something which basically said "gut read"; changed it to "because you find me scummy"
Sure, "misreps." He said one thing, I believed another thing. I believe he did
not
have a gut scumread against me (why is a gut read worth voting there?), and I believe that it was a OMGUS vote-- sure, call it a "gut read," you don't have any other case.

For someone who has almost no reads at all, you are in no place to insult a gut read, as it is more than you have, and he, unlike you, realizes the importance of voting for who you think is most likely to be scum. But whatever, if you felt he was lying about his gut read, then I suppose there isn't much else I can say here.

Another misrep... The conversation went like this: >is there any reason to think mute is town? >is there any reason to think that mute is scum? >if you can't see by now why there is, then you can't read.

Uh, not, it didn't. Firstly, read what really happened, everypony, before you judge this one.
Secondly, I picked a particular phrasing. Rather than attacking Zdenek for Ad Hom and not explaining what questions of his weren't answered. I attacked him for phrasing it like that.
This is what you wanted me to point out:
>Is there any reason to think mute is town?
>yes.
>YOU'RE A DUMBASS AND I HATE YOU
This is what I did:
>Is there any reason to think mute is town?
>yes.
>Well, it's too early to tell.

Either that, or you think I'm misrepping monk, which, if I was, somehow, I was doing it in a favorable way.

Uh what? I'm not sure what you're saying here. How do you get "YOU'RE A DUMBASS AND I HATE YOU" which is full of emotion and ad hominem from "I'm pretty sure that you can't read at this point, and since you're probably town, that's huge shame." In fact, how did you get "Well, it's too early to tell" from that? My mind is blown; Do you realize that he was saying that monk can't read if he can't see why Mute is scum? Probably because Zdenek had been posting dirt on Mute throughout the last few pages.

Several issues here: The fact that if Hiraki is scum that he'll keep dropping scum tells is irrelevant because that is true for EVERY scum, and is not a reason to not vote him at all. Secondly, you out Hiraki as likely PR, which is a bad thing to do from a town perspective. It's anti-town no matter how you paint it. Oh and you vote Zdek again; whatever happened to that meta of him being like you as town? Thrown out the window now that the wagon is getting full and you can jump on the mislynch?
No, not necessarily. scum don't always drop scumtells, Hiraki has a kind of strong personality, and I guess he always drop scumtells to try to stay alive.
I pointed out that he may be a PR, and again, this is his playstyle. He acts like he's a PR trying to avoid getting NKed. If he didn't want to be thought of that way, he'd change his playstyle? (Since it IS his playstyle, it's not outting him any more than outting him as a likely PR in any other game he's played up to this point. I'm outting his playstyle and what it looks like.)
Didn't you discredit my meta of him being like me as town? Furthermore, scroll up on that page. Zden does some more scummy stuff and I re-vote him. The wagon is no more full than before. When I unvoted, the wagon went from 5 votes to 4 votes, when I revoted, the wagon went from 4 votes to 5 votes. In that part at the very least, you're making up stuff to say I'm scummy. Call me a fencesitter, wishy-washy, but it's not like his wagon grew 10 feet since I unvoted.

Okay, first of all, do you even know what it was the Zdenek was because accused of on that page? It was that he was saying people were scummy, but not voting them. The exact same thing that you've been doing all out this game. Only difference is that Zdenek had his vote in a credible spot the whole time he was doing that; he was actively scumhunting. Second of all, it doesn't matter if I think your meta is silly, because you did not think that, and it is your actions we are examining here. Thirdly, why would he drop scumtells to stay alive when dropping scumtells would further his death (hiraki)? How do you know it is his playstyle to act like a PR? How do you know that he wasn't actually a PR? Do you think that he assumes that town would not do something anti-town like try to out a PR?

My response is in the green.

Junpei · Post Post #986 (isolation #19) » Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:43 am

Also, as I have had people respond to me before (town and mafia) saying that they feel it is fruitless to argue with me in this manner, I do hope you do. I take in everything you say and form opinions based on it, don't believe that there is no changing my mind.

I feel that this is an important knot to work out.

Junpei · Post Post #989 (isolation #20) » Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:28 am

NS, stick around, I'm almost done with it, have to run to the store real fast though.

pedit: Fuuuuuu

Junpei · Post Post #993 (isolation #21) » Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:53 am

Ugh, this may not get done till tomorrow, I don't know if I'll be able to sit down and do this. Whiskers I'm like 70% done, and getting demoralized with mistakes. This is a shitty way to do things. For future games I will have to come up with a more efficient method.

Also I think it is best if you keep using pink... fuck this is a waste of time.

When you have time Whiskers, can you respond to this so that SOMETHING productive is happening? You missed it earlier.

Junpei · Post Post #999 (isolation #22) » Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:52 pm

Actually, no. This convo can be rebuilt tomorrow, I"m not going to spend an hour and a half reformatting everything so that Nobody Special can weigh in on it; honestly what are we expecting him to say? We're lynching him today and he has contributed nothing of value all game, his opinion is worthless anyway.

I'll just respond to you whisper, but I'm going to do it in a separate post, not going to carry on the chain of colors

Junpei · Post Post #1003 (isolation #23) » Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:47 pm

1002 is bad. That is very troubling.

Whiskers, I just wanted to see how you would respond to me trying to quickly BW you, and how NS would respond. And if NS flips a non-powerful scum role, then I will be even more suspicious of you.

NS will die today, but we will finish this debate as much as possible. Tomorrow I'll respond, and do the quote/number. Case = 1, r1 = 2, c1 = 3, r2 = 4, so I will number mine 5.

Junpei · Post Post #1007 (isolation #24) » Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:09 pm

Well non-powerful scum role basically means a scum role that scum wouldn't want to protect. Because I think that if NS is scum, then that you are some scum role that isn't afraid of investigation for some reason. I can only speculate as to what that may be. In fact, we have Papa Zito as a mod, so why not ask him a question of normalcy!

@Mod would a jack of all trades which has an option to be completely investigation immune for one night normal?

But yes, if NS flipped goon I'd suspect you more, Whiskers, and okay numbering the points makes sense.

Jack-of-All-Trades variants (within reason) are considered Normal.

Junpei · Post Post #1009 (isolation #25) » Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:38 pm

@mod you are dealing with a moron, but to make the question less specific, I'll give you three examples, and ask you to identify them as normal/not normal please.
1) Jack of all trades with 1shot ability to be completely investigation immune (trackers, watchers, cops) for 1 night.
2) 1-shot complete investigation immune (trackers, watchers, cops) for 1 night (not Joat)
3) completely investigation immune for all nights (from trackers, watchers, cops)

If your force me to pretend to have a normal setup I'm making that has these three things, then so be it, but I don't know why you can't answer it here.

Cuz setup speculation is bluh

Junpei · Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:36 pm

Probably coasting scum; but who knows. The Whisper I know would have reads and analysis at this point in the game for sure and be much more active. Although, you did coast as scum at the end of Ninja Mafia...

I'll respond to you soon Whiskers, it's just that it takes a long time, and I"m not looking forward at all to the reoformatting of the post. I wish that this was real life so that we could sit down for a couple hours and finish the whole case. Anyway, yeah.

Junpei · Post Post #1016 (isolation #27) » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:49 pm

FFFFFFFFFFFUCK

Whiskers, I'm just going to respond to your points, I don't have time to reformat and I just fucking lost my fucking work and I'm extremely pissed off at that. I left to take a break (I was try to format in my own responses which was taking FOREVER) and my friend called, wanted to use my computer, I said sure, and he asked if he could close out some tabs (I had like 10) and he closed the one with the reply in it.

So; could you format it? Because I'm just about fucking done with BBCode and I want to get on in this game; I can't believe that I am the reason it is dragging. I'm just going to go ahead and respond now in a post that doesn't quote what you wrote, if you can't format it, then I'll do it, but I'm not sure when exactly that would be. Honestly if people can't be bothered to read because "i have sensitive eyes~~" then all hope is lost anyway, and I need to figure out if you are scum are not.

Junpei · Post Post #1018 (isolation #28) » Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:20 pm

Spoiler: Junpeis' response to the response to the response to the response to the case

OKAY, TWENTY FOUR POINTS OH MY GOD. You know what? I don't even want you to respond to most of these. You're the first person ever to show me that my case making ability needs serious work. This hasn't been very productive, and we simply don't have the time to do this. Others need to be scumhunted. In fact, we should stop doing this case thing, if I'm alive tomorrow with you, then maybe then, but this is wasting time; I want you to respond to two points in particular.

" * You almost hammered on a town read?You would rather end the day prematurely than try to wagon someone else? You are hardly advocating at all for your opinion, you're practically coasting."

" * Still haven't provided an explanation as to why he was only scum from being from EM."

Also I could care less how it is formatted; I have already read every word, it's up to the others, but maybe that's what you meant.

I will be voting NS closer to deadline by the way. Whiskers, see if there's things you really want to respond to in the spoiler, respond to it, and then respond to the last 2 points. I've already gotten everything I wanted to get out of my Day 1 case section though, so I'm only asking for the last 2 points.

Junpei · Post Post #1020 (isolation #29) » Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:48 pm

Honestly Whiskers, we don't need to argue those points further, the formatting is just so that others can judge our conversation. After responding to your points, I realized there was no reason to argue further, as I have already extracted what I can from the points.

No need to format in my new responses, they can just find my post, don't waste your time.

Junpei · Post Post #1022 (isolation #30) » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:21 pm

I'm scumhunting; I made the case basically from my notes, which, if you saw the method I use to take notes, you'd be surprised I was able.

This isn't about winning or losing. At the end of the day, the case means nothing if I can't point to people and say "look, Whiskers did this, and this is how she responded, and this is why that makes her scum". Often times, it was a matter of arguing things which I can't prove, which doesn't fully discredit my point, rather that I simply cannot prove things like that you aren't extremely paranoid about your towniness.

Sometimes you did give good defenses, and I credited you there. Some points, I will still believe that I can credit, some I will have to push as null simply because you are pulling cards I can't disprove (things like the newbie card; which you did NOT pull, but it is indisputable the same way), and some I will discard.

I never made things up about you, I just kept moving on and investigating you constantly, I'm not going to argue semantics (I've a habit for that, although I believe there are times when it is good to do so) with you, so I drop it and move on. Sometimes I really did mean something else, and you did the same thing a couple times.

Number 4 is me explaining a scum read, and that you committed it, and that you are saying it is not a scum read. That is all I can do there. I will never pat you on the back and go "nice whiskers, good response! YOU WIN!", as I don't think you need the false-compliments to motivate you.

If you want to get the last word in on all the points I could care less, just put it in spoiler tags, or format it if you want to waste time; frankly I'm very annoyed with the formatting business, and the line of questioning and how it has ended. Also, since my entrance, it has been you and me. 5 slots are AWOL, and I want to start focusing on them.

Junpei · Post Post #1029 (isolation #31) » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:28 am

No Whiskers, I don't care about my Day 2 points enough; and it isn't priority right now. If you care about who wins/loses points, then you can have all wins down there.

NS, I'm waking you up; and best part is I'm not asking you to read the convo yet, just tell me who scum is!

BBmolla, what are you reads and why do you have those reads, what's your reasoning?

Whisper, that post is awful and you know it; If Ninja Mafia shows you anything is that I try very hard, how about you give reads? If NS flips town, I have you pinned as lurker-scum just like in Ninja Mafia.

Junpei · Post Post #1030 (isolation #32) » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:32 am

Oh, but Whiskers, I'll answer a few of your questions in your responses.

3. Some semantics (like this case) I feel are worth arguing; but most times probably are not.

4. Yes, no reads is scummy. Can't change my mind on that, don't bother.

5. Because of the way you post, and what I've seen in other games/threads.

6. I thought you were scum so if that is the case then I don't understand if you would be so upfront about this. It annoys me that it is looking like I'm wrong about you, but that's just how it is. Time to focus on everyone else.

Junpei · Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:25 am

NS: explanations?

BBmolla, Whiskers not shying away in way of my case is a good point, but isn't such a town tell that should clear any considerable suspicion. Whiskers is less suspicious to me now. Every slot except me and Whiskers has done very little recently. What is the difference between Whiskers scum and town meta?

Junpei · Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:25 pm

Nope, I don't give a single care if you read the conversation right now (but you will read it day 5, as it is essential), can you give me some scum reads of yours and some analysis on players? You aren't giving me much to work with this day.

In post 983, Killjoy wrote:Whiskers, since you are self proclaimed mislynch, why aren't you dead already?

Also Whiskers answer this please.

Junpei · Post Post #1041 (isolation #35) » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:33 pm

If it is the case that as town, you are highly prone to dying early, then why is it that you say

i) you are town
ii) you have not died and it is no longer early.

Junpei · Post Post #1042 (isolation #36) » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:36 pm

unvote

Back to l-3, need to be careful as replacements still need time.

Junpei · Post Post #1048 (isolation #37) » Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:09 pm

Well Chkflip is gone until the next day phase. If NS somehow flips town, chkflip for lurkerscum.

Whisper continues to lurk though too... hm... maybe both scum are lurking; if NS flips town, whisper is also very suspect.

If NS is scum, I will suspect Whiskers more because this could very possibly be bussing.

Also, if NS flips scum, Whiskers would be a bad target for investigation. This insane bussing could only come from scum who aren't worried about investigation roles the coming night. So, if Whiskers is scum it would certainly be useless.

Junpei · Post Post #1050 (isolation #38) » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:30 am

Alright, I'll be campaigning for your lynch tomorrow; that's practically a confession.

Junpei · Post Post #1056 (isolation #39) » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:10 am

What could scum possibly say? If NS is scum he doomed his team from the start.

Anyway, NS if you're scum then that wifom isn't going to have any effect on me; just saying.

Also I'm out of things to talk about, because everyone is lurking and not contributing.

I thought that town cared enough about this game to try, but I guess not. I'll hammer when Whiskers consents, as that's the only person in this game whose opinion is being voiced with any weight behind it other than my own. I'm ready to go into the night.

Junpei · Post Post #1061 (isolation #40) » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:29 pm

vote nobody special

I thought Whiskers was the hammer.

Junpei · Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:20 am

VT here.

Killjoy, your turn.

Junpei · Post Post #1079 (isolation #42) » Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:58 pm

So... the only town PR is a RB? I am guessing then that scum have no REAL powerroles. I'm gracious that scum didn't claim cop though, that makes things easier.

Whispers may be going after me quick because I said that I was going to campaign for her today; and has reason to think that if I say that, that I will seriously come at her hard. And, while I still am pending ISO checks of some slots, if whispers doesn't contribute, I will place my vote on her. That is a fact that will not change no matter what I read.

Junpei · Post Post #1089 (isolation #43) » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:04 pm

You honestly think that Whiskers is dumb enough to vote whispers in hope that I'll come in and vote so that her pal (who by default means BBmolla) to hammer when I said that I was pending several ISO checks, and was going to give whisper a chance to contribute mere minutes before?

Junpei · Post Post #1093 (isolation #44) » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:44 pm

Wait Whiskers... what? I am almost sure that you are sarcastic, but I can't tell the purpose of your post.

Killjoy what do you mean, mess up the night kills?

Junpei · Post Post #1094 (isolation #45) » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:46 pm

Oh. I see. Okay, default to chkflip; doesn't change my point although I see why you pointed that out. I just didn't recall who the fifth was, and I can't remember chkflip being in this game.

Junpei · Post Post #1096 (isolation #46) » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:33 pm

Aw.. Parama isn't that bad, I actually like Parama.

Anyway, Killjoy forgot to answer you question in 1077