Cultural Revolution is Over!

[Hop Shui]

LoudmouthLee prodded, replacements sought for Feuerdache and igota75.

[Thok]

I am keeping my vote on you since you've also straw-manned my thoughts on chamber in what seems like an attempt to make me look bad.

Straw-manned? You were saying we shouldn't trust the cop after two guiltys, saying he might be a recruiter accusing his recruits after he identified a SK.

I have no problem with you saying that my theory is wrong. I would consider the above statement reasonable.

I do have a problem with you misstating my theory by extending it in a ridiculous way that I never intended. (That's what a Straw Man is, and that's what you clearly did.) You claimed that I was asking for chamber to be the sole recruiter, who attempted to recruit like 5 people, including both of the SK's. I never claimed that.

[Hop Shui]

Criticize Rightist Deviationism!

Y 8 : (Coron, Pooky, Shamrock, Glork, BabyJesus, Thok, Twomz, mysterymeat, Vaughn)

Shamrock 2 : (Tamuz, Y)

10 public humiliations to lynch.

viper0933 is replacing igota75 - he must be a glutton for self-criticism!

[viper0933]

Whoa, I'm wondering if I should jump on that bandwagon or not.

[Yosarian2]

I am keeping my vote on you since you've also straw-manned my thoughts on chamber in what seems like an attempt to make me look bad.

Straw-manned? You were saying we shouldn't trust the cop after two guiltys, saying he might be a recruiter accusing his recruits after he identified a SK.

I have no problem with you saying that my theory is wrong. I would consider the above statement reasonable.

I do have a problem with you misstating my theory by extending it in a ridiculous way that I never intended. (That's what a Straw Man is, and that's what you clearly did.) You claimed that I was asking for chamber to be the sole recruiter, who attempted to recruit like 5 people, including both of the SK's. I never claimed that.

Um, could someone point me to the posts these two guys are arguing about?

[Y]

You claimed that I was asking for chamber to be the sole recruiter, who attempted to recruit like 5 people, including both of the SK's. I never claimed that.

You see... You're the one to straw-man now.

Sole recruiter? Attempted to recruit 5 people? Recruited the SKs? I never said that. I did got it wrong with the two SKs instead of one, but I never said they were recruited by him.

You're just straw-manning to get my words out of context to prove me straw-manning.

I said exactly this:
1. Suspecting a cop that has proved to find scum is illogical.
2. Saying he might be a recruiter that points at his recruits could be a good idea if he haven't find a SK.
3. Based on 1 and 2, you're scummy for suggesting that we should investigate him.

As opposed to you, I can quote my post to prove what I'm saying and show how you're the one who's straw-manning.

[Y]

I reread the post and I know what you're talking about. That's called

cynicism

. Not only that, I never said that you said it. I posted it as a cynic theory to prove what you're saying, thus proving the opposite.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

Hey everyone, hopefully I can catch up on reading these 1100 posts and post a response later this afternoon or evening.

[Glork]

Out until Sunday/Monday.

[Thok]

I reread the post and I know what you're talking about. That's called

cynicism

. Not only that, I never said that you said it. I posted it as a cynic theory to prove what you're saying, thus proving the opposite.

And in two sentences, you've given essentially the definition of what a strawman is. But keep arguing that you're not doing that.

(I'll remind you-you attacking me for my thoughts on chamber by itself isn't suspicious. The method by which you attacked me is suspicious.)
-------------------

I decided to look at some of Y's earlier posts to see what he was doing early game.

I found this comment earlier (post 107). (And yes, I realize that it was again in response to me speculating on the set-up).

There is also the possibility of a Mao influenced cult (the term cult of personality comes up a lot in Wikipedia's articles about the Cultural Revolution).

What do you mean by that? I really think a Mao influenced cult would represent the mafia. That's the flavor of this game. What you're saying is pretty obvious...

I'm trying to decide if this means anything, now that it seems like the remaining scum is in fact a Mao influenced group (the Red Guards) with cultlike properties.

Y was also the first person to start speculating on the size of scum groups (post 102), which he did because he claimed that analyzing the post restrictions wasn't going to be helpful. He also put out the "the night scenes imply there are 6 mafia" theory on day 2.

[Y]

I'm a cynical person. Being cynical and straw-manning are two different things.

The sentence you quoted was before I knew the difference between "Cult" and "Mafia", IIRC. I thought you were talking about the game's flavour.

I was speculating about the size of the scum group. So what? It's my fist non-newb game and I didn't know how we can proceed.

[Thok]

I'm a cynical person. Being cynical and straw-manning are two different things.

The sentence you quoted was before I knew the difference between "Cult" and "Mafia", IIRC. I thought you were talking about the game's flavour.

I was speculating about the size of the scum group. So what? It's my fist non-newb game and I didn't know how we can proceed.

1. Feel free to explain what you think is the difference between "cynical" and "strawmanning"; otherwise we will be stuck arguing all day.

2. You do notice that I specifically said I wasn't sure what your post 107 means? I could see it as an argument either way (for you being Red Guard or not being Red Guard); as much as anything I wanted to see your reaction to me bringing it up (and also other people's reactions).

[Y]

Straw-manning:
Exaggerating, getting things out of context.

Cynicism:
Saying things meaning the opposite.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

Ok after spending about 3-4 hours reading this whole thing, two particular things jumped out at me:

1. Bacde claimed to be recruited on N1
2. BJ's post about chamber probably being recruited.

The first item caught my attention because Fritzler was lynched day 2 and it was revealed that he was recruited, which means the recruitment could only have been done on N1, thus contradicting Bacde's claim.

The second item caught my attention because since nobody has come out about being recruited N3 and N4, chamber's likehood of being recruited on either night is pretty high considering how he had nailed so many scum. Also notice chamber started having innocent results instead of guilty ones on days 4 and 5. Plus chamber investigated Pooky, which from what I remember was not one of the players that the town wanted to investigate. This could mean that chamber is now a member of one of the Red Guard groups and tries to clear his fellow scum each day.

This leads to me having highest suspicions for Pooky and Bacde since they are the two players that have been cleared by chamber. I'll

vote: bacde

since chamber declared him innocent when there was a wagon developing on him.

[Yosarian2]

Hmmm...intersting point.

Bacade, you want to clarify this? When, precisely, were you recruited?

[VisMaior]

Hm. So we lynch Bacde, if he is scum then Shamrock and Chamber both are scum?

[VisMaior]

No wait. Was fritz elite or yunan?

[Y]

Fritzler was a

Red Guard Recruit - he had recently sworn allegiance to the Maoists.

We don't know...

[VisMaior]

So it still could be that Bacde was recruited by the other redguards, no?

[chamber]

Hm. So we lynch Bacde, if he is scum then Shamrock and Chamber both are scum?

I obviously find this plan to be needless, but its better then lynching me...

So it still could be that Bacde was recruited by the other redguards, no?

He must be seeing as I know he's town, town wouldn't lie right? (I geuss he could be gf caught in a lie though)

[Glork]

I can't believe Y might survive another day, but I think Bacde might be a necessary lynch. Chamber declared an innocent on him, and he claims to be in the same situation as Shamrock. It might be worthwhile to test a bunch of theories at once, even though I'm somewhat (though only somewhat) inclined to believe the lot of them.

[Twomz]

I suppose i'm for a Bacde lynch, because if he's scum we'll have caught TWO other mafiasos. But, we should probably concider all the possibilities for today before we actually preform the lynch.

[Bacde]

Hmmm...intersting point.

Bacade, you want to clarify this? When, precisely, were you recruited?

Bacde

April 1st by the Red Guards. I was attempted to be recruited again on April 5th by the Elites. When looking back, I found that it was actually on N2 and N3.

But before you even try LaL on me, I have proof of my when my recruitment was

. I started hinting to being recruited right after I was. My first hint?

I'm not going for the masons, because I know for a fact that one of the things Glork has said today is false.

It makes me think.

Right after glork said that there were no recruitments last night.

More Hints:

Not if the recruitee says no.

Perhaps he doesn't want to give the scum information, seeing how he knows very little about what the scum actually know themselves.

I beleive Shamrock, by the way.

If the general concensus agrees to lynching Shamrock, he should probably out the person he thinks was also recruited.

And seriously guys, can we please try holding off on lynching the cop-confirmed innocents till later? There is no way in hell that I am a "neccisary lynch".

[Y]

April 1st by the Red Guards. I was attempted to be recruited again on April 5th by the Elites.

No one was told by whom he's being recruited. At least we don't know about Fritzler and Shamrock said he doesn't know either.

Correct me if I'm wrong...

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

After Bacde's last post, there are 3 possibilities I can think of:

1. If shamrock's claim was true and Bacde's claim of recruited N2 and N3 was true, we may have the

Red Guards as a completely separate scum group from the Yunans and Elites

. Note Fritzler's lynch scene where Hop Shui said that Fritz "sworn allegiance" to the Red Guards and not Yunan nor Elite. And that opens up whole new possibilities.

2. If only one of them is telling the truth, the liar is probably a recruiter who knew about all the recruitments and is trying to clear themselves from being recruiters since our main lynch targets are recruiters. In this case Bacde would be more likely to be the liar since shamrock claimed first. The Red Guard group possibility is still possible in this case.

3. If neither told the truth, both players are part of the same scum group with one of them being the recruiter and one of them being a recruitee. And the Red Guard could very well be that scum group.

If there is a third independent "regular" Red Guard group, that increases the chances of chamber being recruited even more. So the only way to see what is actually true is either test it out with a lynch or let whoever was recruited on nights 3 and 4 come out. But since nobody has come out yet, that probably means whoever got recruited on nights 3 and 4 accepted their invitations.