I can play the copy-paste game too!
TB wrote:That's exactly my point. If you were voting for him for behaving idiotically, your vote wouldn't be linked so directly to the fact that he self-voted. Because you think self-voters are suspicious, I find you suspicious.
I was voting him for a perceived correlation between his behaviour and Max's, not because he self-voted.
Links between players make me think that they are evil.
That is the most stupid thought I've heared in a long time (no offense meant). If you really think that's true, you should have also FoS'ed the people who greeted eachother (yes, that included me) and of course yourself and Wintergreen, with the Dunbar-link. In a game like this, many, many links exists between people, and only one of those links is that of mafiosi. So unless you're able of telling which one that is, links between players mean nothing.
I
did
FOS the players who greeted each other.
I am obviously not going to include links which involve me, as I know I'm pro-town.
That is the most stupid argument I've heard in a long time - no offense meant, of course. Isolating connections helps little on day 1, as there is no solid knowledge of anybody's alignment amongst the town. But when people start dying, it turns up some of the best kinds of information. You are correct in that there are many links between players in any given game. But once a scum turns up dead, that isolates a few of them for closer inspection. How do
you
find mafia? Follow-the-cop?
(random-)Selfvoting is nowhere even near suicidal. Apart from a certain exception (you), I don't think anybody is willing to lynch somebody on day 1 because he selfvoted (no matter whether someone else has already selfvoted before him or not).
Therefore, in the end the discussion would have let nowhere, and that behavious wouldn't be suicidal.
You vote for people in order to kill them. Therefore, a vote for yourself is contributing to your own death. i.e. "suicidal". And you have again showed that you aren't even reading my posts by mistaking the reasoning behind my vote for c_d. Again, it was a perceived connection which has since been revised in my mind. I'm voting for
you
, remember? For some reason you're making this out as though I'm out to get c_d. I thought he was stupid. Max, too. Now that I am unsure about a connection, I've written it off as two people being stupid, and have voted someone else. Why are the both of you persistently defending against accusations I didn't make?
You seem to forget that those votes were cast in a stage of the game where votes have even less meaning than a comment like "Hello all, I'm scum, how do you do?".
This is a phase in which we should be having a discussion which
gives us usefull information
, and nothing else.
You said yourself that my posts are providing information. Do you not think that encouraging discussion
does
give us useful information? My vote was not a baseless vote without explanation, nor was it a bandwagon vote. Again I say
read my posts.
My primary intent is not to defend c_d, but to prevent the town from having a pointless discussion that leads nowhere.
But... but... you just said discussion gives information. What are you afraid
this
particular discussion will reveal?
First you say c_d is an idiot (or at least behaving like one),
Yes.
evil,
No. I said that connections between players make me fear they are evil. You'll see I expressed the same fear about you greeter types.
suspicious
Yes.
and dangerous to the town,
Only if he's pro-town, in which case he's voting a player he knows to be pro-town, which is - oh, this is gonna blow your mind - ANTI-TOWN, Einstein.
then you start backpeddling so it makes it easier for you to change your vote.
Backpeddling? Oh,
backpedaling
. Wait, backpedaling? When have I done anything of the sort? The only thing that changed my vote was
your
behaviour. Show me where I've condoned c_d's behaviour IN THE SLIGHTEST, and I'll retract my opinion that you're not reading my posts. In the slightest.
Although I do think selfvotes aren't damaging, I'm not trying to downplay them. As you can see by Max' post, his vote was random, and although c_d's wasn't, it still can be counted as a random vote, as it has the same value.
So now I am a scum player coming to the defense of townies? You are contradicting yourself hugely within one post. Do you think c_d is a townie or not?
I can see where the misunderstanding was here. I don't know whether c_d is a townie or not. However, the strength of your defence of him I find suspicious either way. As far as I know, you have no reason to believe that he is pro-town. (No, not the defence itself, it's not some "damned if you do, damned if you don't" thing, it was the vehemence with which it was put forward.)
You could very well be a scum player making some worthless contributions based on nothing to make themselves appear protown. [/sarcasm]
I will need some clarification here.
Was the sarcasm that you don't believe that my posting is actually worthless?
Was the sarcasm that you don't believe I am scum?
Or was the sarcasm your being an ass who doesn't know the correct definition of "sarcasm"?
Forgive the abrasiveness of that last bit, I'm a little drunk, and I don't take particularly kindly to what I have found to be a highly effective method of catching scum being called "stupid".
I do. You are being paranoid, and although that can be a good thing, it's beginning to influence your judgement. If what you say was true, that would mean there would be at least 5 mafia, which is obviously untrue.
Yes, I am paranoid. Clinically speaking, I mean. I find it works for me, mafia-wise. =)
Also, I notice you've read my post now... or you've just contradicted yourself. First off you say if I'm after associations I should have FOSed the mutual greeters, and now you're
including the same FOSes, whose existence you ignored in the previous post, in your interpretation
?
Also, the theory itself is fallacious. I made it quite clear that the mutual greeters and the self-voters were two separate groups of suspicions. I was in no way saying, or even
implying
that they were in anything together. I am beginning to think that you have wilfully misinterpreted me, and that you are interpreting my posts differently in each post to suit whatever given shabby argument you're trying to make at the time, and becoming convinced that my vote is in the right place.
It isn't, but neither is voting for somebody else.
It isn't more justifiable than voting for someone else, but
neither is voting for somebody else?
What?
As you very well know, all random voters don't vote because they think they vote for scum, they vote to trigger discussion.
And what kind of reaction are you expecting from yourself, when you vote for yourself? What kind of reaction from others do you expect other than "you're an idiot" and "you're not being helpful"?
A selfvote doesn't differ in this, only you fail to see this.
Explain to me how a self-vote is in any way helpful, and I will concede this. Pro-towners are just as likely to jump upon a self-voter as scum, as they're damaging either way.
You seem to be able to draw conclusions from selfvotes which are based on nothing, and that is something that concerns me.
I haven't drawn any conclusions!
Do you see me saying "c_d is scum"? For the friggin' last time, all I said was that the fact that
two
people did it, while the initial impression was that of behavioural restrictions, was suspicious. What concerned me was the fact that at the time, there were so many coincidental behaviours among the town, that I wanted to pick up on them - and self-voting is scummier! I voted him, AGAIN, for the correlation with Max' behaviour, not for the self-vote in and of itself.
Someone's backpeddling over here.
Oh, for crying out loud. Point out for me where I've backed down one step where it was not logically warranted, or stop making moronic accusations which make you feel like you're making a good argument.
Of course you haven't been deducing his motives, he hasn't got one, that's the whole idea behind a random vote.
Thankyou for basically repeating what I said. But the vote was not random, remember? He "does it every game". You are still writing off the vote as less than what it is.
By stating it's a ridicilous thing to do (selfvoting) for both scum and town, you do admit that there is no information to gain from the discussion, hence proving that I was right
Wrong. There is no
benefit
to be gained from the
act of self-voting
. On the other hand, I'm finding the ensuing discussion very telling indeed.
Also, if you were drawing no conclusions from his behaviour, what made you think he was scum?
The fact that he and Max self-voted, at the same time as people were conspicuously greeting one another in public. I was beginning to feel that certain types of players had certain types of restrictions upon their behaviour. That's since been proven wrong, and I've moved my vote onto a more scummy candidate. At the time I did not believe it to be a suspicion drawn from his behaviour, but from his voting pattern. And it was far from a "conclusion", it was a day 1 vote.
Although I would like to see c_d answer this question as well, I'd like to answer it for him. It's because you haven't stopped making silly accusations.
I didn't accuse him of anything except acting stupidly.
As for your latter post:
EBWOP, sorry, I just realised I forgot something
I'm very tempted to vote for Mackay, but the only thing that stops me is that she has made some good contributions to the discussion (good in the way that it gives us a lot of information, and a good discussion). That's why I keep my vote on Ibaesha, but I'll change it to Mackay as soon as Ibaesha has replied with a reasonable explanation.
My current scumlist consists of:
1. Ibaesha, closely followed by
2. Mackay
I hope my analyses gives you something to think about
You think I've made good contributions? After saying in your previous post that my contributions are worthless?
Highest on your suspicion list are the two people with the most suspicion on you? HOW PERCEPTIVE.
Thankyou, thankyou. I've been Drunken Angry Ranting Mackay, and I'll be here all night. Well, I might pass out in my chair. But that's unlikely, seeing as I seem to still be able to type coherently. Also, raj has beautiful eyes. (OMG MAKING CONNECTIONS. I tend to say that when I'm drunk.
)
