#335 Road to Perdition - Finiretur (<- Over)

[Mackay]

Sorry people I forgot about this game too and like thesp, i too am getting annoyed with all of these long posts.

No, not "like Thesp". Not "getting" annoyed. You showed up late and now you're complaining because you have to read long posts. You don't have the right to be annoyed about something you didn't bother showing up to prevent.

Just sayin'.

Welcome to the game, connor, Masterchief. I'm not usually so mean. There is an advantage to this, a slightly 'outside' perspective might be useful. As you've both had to read in one go rather than being slowly sucked into the vortex of admittedly very tedious long posts (heck,

writing

them was boring), does anything stand out to the two of you in particular? Connor, what's the reasoning for your Max vote?

[Mackay]

Masterchief, in response to your question about TB, I might as well explain why I find him suspicious, as I'm not sure he knows himself, what with it being lost in a whole lot of blah blah blah on my part. I'm a sucker for having the last word.

It began with a disagreement over self-voting, which is where I think his confusion stems. First of he FOSed four people for "making such a big deal" out of the self-voters. That didn't particularly stand out to me.

The first thing which caught my attention was what he admits to be an "overaggressive" response to my vote upon chaotic_diablo for his self-vote, launching an attack against me while still voting for ibaesha.

As the argument goes on, he contradicts himself a couple of times, most notably the fact that he is both arguing that the current discussion was worthless and we should move on to something else, and then that he was gaining information from the current discussion. He posted these in the same post; I quoted them right at the end of the last huge one I made, if you want a quick reference. He also accused me of not responding to his points, while only selectively quoting my posts and having taken at least one phrase completely out of context.

It was mostly this dishonest style of argument that kept my vote on him, but I was mostly still open to other options had something scummier come up, until both the quote mentioned in Thesp's last post, and this:

You were the one that stated that all people who are linked are probably evil. Since you FoS'ed them all, you were suspicious of all of them to be mafia. If they are all mafia, they are together in something. So you actually were implying that they had something to do with eachother, you just refuse to see it.

The first sentence again is a dishonest interpretation of my point, but anyway. This paragraph here holds the strong assumption that there is only one mafia group within this game. How would he possibly know that? My response is that it is because he is part of said mafia group.

Unconscious assumptions that other people are townies + unconscious assumptions about the number of mafia groups = someone with extra knowledge which they're not telling. In my opinion.

I hope this post doesn't get me stabbed by Thesp. At least it's not full of quote boxes.

[chaotic_diablo]

How so?

Because your craptacular answers will get you vigged/lynched. I swear if I wasn't so sure TB hadn't made some major slip up I would vote for you forty times over now. If I could lynch two people at once you would be the other. plzdiekthxbai

My life is on the line because you hate how I talk? BS.

The post is mostly directed to Raj. However, I feel that there are others who also fulfill the requirements to an extent.

Like who? Or are you going to continue to vaguely throw out accusations without substance?

I'd like you to get to the point.

[Masterchief]

OK... In light of Mackay's very convincing opinion and the fact that he has done nothing to deny this, I have to say

STRONGFoS:TB

Unless he comes up with a defense, thats what I'm going to have to leave it at.

[Primate]

'sup Masterchief, are you just stopping by, or are you really in this game?

I nearly lynched TB in the last game I was in with him for the exact reasons that you lot are thinking of lynching him now. All I can say is that his behaviour is consistent with how he behaved before, when he was town, but I've never seen him as scum, so I can't really defend his playstyle. This new style of pseudo-lurking that involves making posts too long for people to be bothered to read is new though.

Most of this is just as it comes to me from reading, there's too much stuff for me to be bothered making the post organised. Plus, it's been about a day and a half without sleep for me, so all this comes with the caveat that it might not make any sense at all.

TB, I would say that diverting a conversation is pretty much the same thing as quashing it, and you have admitted that you were diverting it. Then again, it was early game discussion and more theoretical than scum-searching, so I can understand your eagerness to get started on what you may perceive as hunting mafia.

Fosing lot's of people at once is not inherently scummy imho, but TB's over defensiveness seemed to kick in once and he treated it as if it was whilst defending his point, which interests me.

I, like TB, don't buy the 'voting for yourself' is scummy argument. It's against both sides interests do vote for themselves, so why pick out one over the other? Don't see why he didn't try and argue this instead of diverting the argument though.

Raj is a playa'

FosWintergreen

for getting on a packed wagon so casually.

TB seems like he's misrepresenting things in his eagerness to lynch, something I can't easily square with a pro-town player, even one of TB's overenthusiasm.

MiniFos Mackay

for being so balls to wall in his attack of TB.

Thesp: I don't see the 'appears to think they're townies' thing atm, I'll have another look in the morning.

In conclusion, if TB didn't have so many votes on him at the minute, I'd vote him. But he has. So I won't. It's too early to be lynching.

[Max]

unvote:max

vote: connor

for senseless band waggoning

[Thesp]

I nearly lynched TB in the last game I was in with him for the exact reasons that you lot are thinking of lynching him now.

Does he usually let slip that he thinks several people are pro-town?

You're also wishy-washy much on TB as a whole. Hmm...

I think TB, chaotic_diablo, and Primate are a scum crew together. Early guess, much more convinced about the first two, obviously.

I'd like you to get to the point.

You said, "I feel that there are others who also fulfill the requirements to an extent", in regards to:

What troubles me most are the people who bandwagon TB and are not reading any of his posts and are instead, taking the side of the person who they support, assuming that he's made a good argument. IMO, the bystanders are just looking for a way to end day one as quickly as they can.

I asked you whom those were. You evaded the question. I suspect there

aren't

any others who fulfill that requirement, and you are throwing out baseless accusations to intimidate people off the bandwagon. This is hugely, hugely scummy.

I don't see a problem with running up TB at this point. I really don't. Pressure a fake claim from him then lynch him.

[Masterchief]

I like that idea. It just might work.

[chaotic_diablo]

I asked you whom those were. You evaded the question. I suspect there aren't any others who fulfill that requirement, and you are throwing out baseless accusations to intimidate people off the bandwagon. This is hugely, hugely scummy.

There are others who fulfill the requirement. However, you should note that they do not fulfill it to its maximum. The reason why I don't want to reveal them is because they fill it so minimally, that it isn't worth telling. For instance, you are rushing the lynch with your refusal to read long posts with the inclusion of a weak argument against TB.

As far as intimidating people off the bandwagon, that isn't the goal. Mackay has brought up several good points against TB and revealed a contradiction. However, people seem to be rushing far too quickly on the bandwagon without really thinking. I don't mind intimidating people off a bandwagon if it includes revealing that they have a weak opinion. Obviously that means they are not on there for the reasons you might believe in. Unless they think a bit, then jump on the bandwagon, I don't want to rush a lynch.

[Masterchief]

Why are you suddenly deciding to stick up for TB?

[Primate]

I nearly lynched TB in the last game I was in with him for the exact reasons that you lot are thinking of lynching him now.

Does he usually let slip that he thinks several people are pro-town?

You're also wishy-washy much on TB as a whole. Hmm...

I know I'm wishy-washy on the subject of TB, and it's really annoying me. He's a player that gives off 'noob' scum tells whilst town, and I know that referring to playstyle as an indicator is a really weak defense, but I felt it should be brought up, as it's a fairly major player in my opinion of him, at least.

Generalising specific tells to a particular player from a couple of games in which we're not even sure of his alignment in one is a bit silly in my opinion, but to answer your question, no he did not slip that he thought anyone was pro-town in the previous game. In contrast, he trusted absolutely no-one, and jumped on every little tell, enthusiastic to a fault.

The whole of the matter is that despite the tells and evidence presented against him, I am still not 100% convinced by TB's guilt. Now I'm not asking for anyone to try and convince me, as I have taken in all the evidence aboard, and am mulling it around, but before I make a move this early on day 1, I would like TB to do a bit more to convince me of his motives.

@ChaoticDiablo. You call the argument against TB weak? Why do you say that it's weak? I consider it rather strong. Plus, lots of people on a bandwagon != quicklynch. We'll lynch him when we're ready.

I, also, would like you to name some names when you make these sweeping accusations of an entire bandwagon. On top of the scumminess aspect, it makes it very difficult for anyone to defend or agree with your argument.

[Masterchief]

Has anyone here besides me noticed that TB still has not put up a cunter argument. Not even a poorly planned, really bad defense?I'm about to vote him, but I'm going to give it a bit and see if he dosen't respond yet.

[connor]

because i know him in person so he knows me

[connor]

unvote vote:connor

[connor]

oh i hate my self
lol

[connor]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!









shorten your posts please im only going tocmplain because we are on the 5th page and its hard to keep up with every one

[Max]

because i know him in person so he knows me

Hey wait a minute we are on page 5 make all your posts in 1

[Primate]

Connor, it would be appreciated if you posted something that contributed to the discussion, especially with so much to discuss.

You probably should try and make as few posts as possible as well, I know that you had four things to say, but theres no reason they couldn't have been in the same post.

[Thesp]

Has anyone here besides me noticed that TB still has not put up a cunter argument. Not even a poorly planned, really bad defense?I'm about to vote him, but I'm going to give it a bit and see if he dosen't respond yet.

Let's wait for him to respond in any instance. We'll get him prodded if we need to.

Mod: Vote count, please.

[ibaesha]

What's with the connor and Max thing? I don't get it.

Max votes himself. Then connor votes for Max. Max unvotes and votes connor for bandwagonning? (there's no max-wagon) Then connor unvotes and votes for himself?

Is this stupid newbie antics or what?

[Mackay]

I was about to comment on how the thread had exploded while I was asleep, but most of it was connor. I'm not sure I understand, it almost read as though he was posting at certain points while reading through the thread, but before that he seemed to have read it already (or at least Max' vote).

I nearly lynched TB in the last game I was in with him for the exact reasons that you lot are thinking of lynching him now.

Does he usually let slip that he thinks several people are pro-town?

You're also wishy-washy much on TB as a whole. Hmm...

I think TB, chaotic_diablo, and Primate are a scum crew together. Early guess, much more convinced about the first two, obviously.

I actually think that Primate's being pretty darn reasonable. However, the wishywashiness is suspicious, not even necessarily in conjunction with TB.

This is too hard, I just woke up and the words I'm looking for are escaping me. More after work, probably.

[wintergreen]

Curiouser and curiouser...

I still think that after going through TB's posts, his style was unusually defensive, with more stretches, even compared to the previous game we were in. As others have pointed out, it can seem that he is assuming the people he is addressing are innocent. Additionally, c_d and TB do seem to (intentionally?) distract from each other's cases.

With the number of votes already, I do agree that it is better to proceed with caution and let TB have a say. Maybe there will be something to convince people one way or the other.

Don't know what is going on with connor. Be a little more terse maybe...

[Masterchief]

Mod can we get a prod for TB?

[rajrhcpfreak]

With the number of votes already, I do agree that it is better to proceed with caution and let TB have a say. Maybe there will be something to convince people one way or the other.

Don't know what is going on with connor. Be a little more terse maybe...

give him more time to defend?

and the connor thing is pissing my off. i hope i wasnt this bad when i was a n00b.

[TB]

I'm still here, just some issues irl that i have to take care off.
I'm currently thinking of a way to defend myself without being overdefensive, or making a big post.

I'll post as soon as i've got a sollution