New York 146 Zach's Insane Mafia World (OVER)

[Alicewondering]

Between the two DV hits me more as scum, His appeals are mainly to emotion, while Jason tries to make his case on mechanics. My reservation is over the bookmark issue. Since neither is about to be lynched I'll place a vote on most likely scum IMHO.

VOTE: DeasVail

what do you make of Jason's question-dodging and sketchy claims, then?

And jason, just because i've confirmed you as watcher does not mean you are town-aligned.

[DarthYoshi]

nope, i am at 5.

I caught DV making a kill... I am confirmed as a watcher by Alice.

Voting/Hammering me would be uberscummy.

Also no, no second person will be named. I still believe them to be town power role of some sort, and it is someone who claimed VT. With the amount of claimed town roles, it is better YET ANOTHER ONE is not outted, at least in my eyes.

This is a very test-able claim, for obvious reasons. Between DV and Jason, we have to have at LEAST one scum. So, I'll bite.

Unvote. Vote: DeasVail. This is L-2.

With the caveat that what Alice said is absolutely true--Jason may be watcher, but that doesn't mean he's automatically town. But if he's bussing his buddy, I'll happily take the assist. Besides, if anyone remembers the pre-crash game, I would have gleefully lynched DV then, too.

FTR--I am also thinking that if DV flips scum, he is probably being bussed by someone, but I am not sure yet by who. His wagon formed pretty quickly after not moving AT ALL in the pre-crash thread, despite my increasingly desperate pleas.

[DeasVail]

Alice, can you help get Jason lynched?

[DeasVail]

Jon, why don't you think appeals to emotion are a towntell?

And I really feel the need to respond to Jason's case here.

Jason not claiming the second person is scummy.

Setting up a 1v1 was obviously in his best interests since he was inevitably going to be lynched today.

Jason using the investigation thing is terrible. Firstly, I didn't want to be tracked, not investigated.

Secondly, after there being such a fuss over me not wanting to be tracked, there is no way I would have carried out the team's kill.

There is nothing wrong with not wanting to be tracked as a VT. It would have been totally useless.

The only way me asking not to be tracked would make sense with me as scum, would have been as an attempt to look town and maybe even draw the tracker to me with me being ninja, or another mafia carrying out the kill. NOT with me carrying out the kill.

[jon_h61]

The arguements against Jason sound convincing. I also gave him a chance to better explain his lateness to game, but he didn't bite. Your argument would have helped me sooner (since this thread is all I have to work with). I may get a reputation as a vote jumper, but I'm looking for scum.

VOTE: Jason

[DeasVail]

Please answer my question

[jon_h61]

Which question? Appeals to emotion? They are neither a Town or scum-tell. Period

[jon_h61]

I wonder how the people who've been gone for the weekend feel on the DV vs Jason issue. Also did anyone supply any preGreat-Crash data? I feel like I'm gambling more than investigating with the little I have to work with.

[havingfitz]

I'm cutting and pasting this on my phone from an email to myself and it is giving me fits. So it's going to be a two parter. Part 1:

I am in agreement with DY and Ghostlin on this…we have a 1v1 where someone is going to be proven a liar. I have suspected DV since D1 (and his play D3 solidified those suspicions); therefore, I am more inclined to vote DV despite the fact I have suspected Jason much of the game as well. I am going to defer to a DV vote because I feel the scenario’s for each vote outcome favors a DV lynch.

Worst case with a DV lynch:

DV is town and we have a 100% easy decision to lynch jason tomorrow and we have (IMO) a cleared town in Alice. That additionally (despite MOIs objections) adds her to Ghostlin to give us two confirmed towns.

Best case with a DV lynch:

DV is scum. Yeah! Downside… jason could still be scum bussing their partner and Alice would then not be as cleared. Additional potential bonus point…we haven’t erroneously killed the town watcher.

Worst case with a jason lynch:

jason is town and we’ve killed the town’s watcher. This is offset by DV essentially being confirmed anti-town and tomorrow’s lynch but (IMO) muddies the waters with respect to Alice.

Best case with a jason lynch:

jason is scum. Yeah! As mentioned above…IMO this also clears Alice. I do not think this necessarily clears DV but it at least increases the odds he is town.

[havingfitz]

Part 2:

Given the fact that I have and will continue to suspect DV regardless of what happens today, I consider his lynch less risky than lynching a confirmed watcher who alignment is the only thing in doubt and will be proven is DV is town.

Also…as I type this…I still am inclined to think we are dealing with more than one anti-town faction [for the sake of this post…I’ll assume it’s an sk] and even if jason was proved to be lying, pending the DV flip, his continued presence would serve as a threat to the sk and would 1) make him a choice target for said other sk as opposed to other PRs or town and 2) we would know he was scum and his continued existence would be at our discretion and conceivably only last as long as he was useful (ie as long as the sk lived).

tl:dr

jason and DV are both scummy as hell but I’d rather get it wrong with scummy town than with an honest watcher. And if jason is proved to be scum…his continued existence could make him sk nk fodder (good for town) or a tool for town to use to find (IMO) the sk.

VOTE: Deasvail

[havingfitz]

Pardon the typos...I think my points are clear despite them.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because tracking me is much worse than tracking someone else.

Why the recent negativity towards me?

You need to explain why tracking you is much worse than tracking someone else. We’ve mass-claimed so all information regarding roles SHOULD be on the table.

Tracking you is no worse than tracking any other claimed VT. It confirms you actually didn’t go anywhere which helps support your VT claim and confirms you aren’t the hypo-Serial Killer we may or may not have.

The only reason I can see for you to not want to be tracked is if you lied about your role. Which at this point is much more likely to come from scum than Town. For example – a scum roleblocker doesn’t want tracked regardless of whether they are making the kill or not.

Jon, why don't you think appeals to emotion are a towntell?

Deas why don’t you think AtE are anything but Null?

--

I sent mine in twice, once pre-crash and once post-crash.

Did you change your action or was it the same both times?

--

Quickly, to Alice's point above, my case on DV did indeed rely on a lack of commitment and opportunism, but his balking at being tracked raised a lot of eyebrows as well, IIRC.

IIRC you were linking Deas and Kamrun together in your suspicion of Deas. Is this correct?

But if

he's bussing his buddy

, I'll happily take the assist. Besides, if anyone remembers the pre-crash game, I would have gleefully lynched DV then, too

Here is my huge problem with the bolded – why as the FBI Agent aren’t you considering that Jason might be selling out the Serial Killer? If you think Jason is a scum watcher that should be the first line of thought for you if your role is what you claim it is.

--

I caught DV making a kill... I am confirmed as a watcher by Alice.

Voting/Hammering me would be uberscummy.

Or you are lying scum-bag Watcher trying to survive one more day and either framing Town or selling out the Serial Killer. Neither of which is a good reason not to hang you.

Also, why would I set up a direct one on one, as scum with so many left still in the game? knowing full well if DV flips town I am done for?

You were a dead man for facilitating your partner’s IAI self-quickhammer. Setting up a 1 v 1 that saves you one more day helps out your faction. DERP.

[jon_h61]

Ghostlin is the only one who has expressed doubt about Alice, so I've been running on the assumption that she was confirmed Town. I didn't catch that until a reread after HavingFitz's last posts. Havingfitz has muddied that idea a bit more. I'm getting ready to go trout fishing this afternoon for a couple of days and won't be around much.

Again HF's arguments sound logical. I need to "park" my vote somewhere, so I'll come back and read any new posts before I leave and then decide where it will go.

@ MoI What is your opinion of Alice?

[jon_h61]

pedit: I attributed the post to HF it should have been MoI. Sorry, doing to many things at once. Substitue MoI for HF in last post. Again apologies

[DarthYoshi]

Quickly, to Alice's point above, my case on DV did indeed rely on a lack of commitment and opportunism, but his balking at being tracked raised a lot of eyebrows as well, IIRC.

IIRC you were linking Deas and Kamrun together in your suspicion of Deas. Is this correct?

That is correct, I saw a connection between the two. It involved inconsistency from DV that turned into an out-of-nowhere defense of Kamrun, while Kamrun basically avoided any substantive interaction with DV--which for me is a D1 associative scumtell.

But if

he's bussing his buddy

, I'll happily take the assist. Besides, if anyone remembers the pre-crash game, I would have gleefully lynched DV then, too

Here is my huge problem with the bolded – why as the FBI Agent aren’t you considering that Jason might be selling out the Serial Killer? If you think Jason is a scum watcher that should be the first line of thought for you if your role is what you claim it is.

I already said this--because after three consecutive one-flips, I actually am seriously doubting that there is a serial killer, and am thinking that my role is simply a red herring.

[jon_h61]

A valuable lesson is learned -NEVER play Mafia While severely distracted, the post I was refering to WAS HF's. I know this makes me look the fool and I apologize. Will set down for one last reread before I go. Still more packing and prep for trip so...

[havingfitz]

@jon...she is one of the players that makes me wish the site had not crashed. Some of my opinions towards other players were stronger and I don't feel as blinded by the crash but with her I feel like it would be good to have her posts available to ISO. That said...I think we can all take as fact that she is a PR of some sort. I can't recall all her claimed tracks so I cannot recall if there was a way she was considered confirmed. I just know that her and jason both agree that she visited him. So we know jason is a watcher. If jason turns out to be scum I will be in the "Alice is confirmed town-tracker camp." As long as she or jason are still alive (or at least alignment unknown) I will continue to have a shred of doubt (strengthened by the inability to ISO her). Until she is confirmed town or scum she will remain on my radar but she is not high up on that list. I think I detailed it more in a recent post but I don't feel like checking in the middle of typing this one.

[Ghostlin]

I caught DV making a kill... I am confirmed as a watcher by Alice.

Voting/Hammering me would be uberscummy.

Also no, no second person will be named. I still believe them to be town power role of some sort, and it is someone who claimed VT. With the amount of claimed town roles, it is better YET ANOTHER ONE is not outted, at least in my eyes

.

*Dr. Pepper Ten spurs out of Ghostlin's nose as he reads he bolded. Soon he's on the floor laughing.* Right. I didn't know it was Mafiascum Comedy Hour. Name one thing you've done for Town. One.

To the part I italicized: then you can die tomorrow, regardless of what DV flips.

[Ghostlin]

Also, the DV/Jason interaction reads like two actors performing a play: DV's not showing any outrage or even what I'll call a 'LOLWUT' response (which isn't necessarily a Town tell, but would be expected in this) and Jason is really smug, particularly with the above post of 'See, I caught DV! You can't lynch me now, I'm so OMG town.'

Are there other people who are reading the same thing?

[Zachrulez]

3rd vote count of day 4:

JasonT1981 - 5 (Alicewondering, MagnaofIllusion, Kamrun, DeasVail, Jon_h61)
DeasVail - 5 (JasonT1981, Ghostlin, redFF, DarthYoshi, havingfitz)

Not Voting: (Snakeplissken, Nobody Special)

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

Day 4 will end no later than Wednesday, April 4th at 2pm CST.

[Zachrulez]

Prods have been sent to Snakeplissken and Nobody Special.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Again HF's arguments sound logical. I need to "park" my vote somewhere, so I'll come back and read any new posts before I leave and then decide where it will go.

What specifically about Having’s arguments ‘sound logical’?

@ MoI What is your opinion of Alice?

My current read (as it has been since Day 2) is Town. I’m not thrilled with the track choice but unless Jason somehow flips Town the odds that he is a scum-Tracker are pretty slim IMO.

--

I already said this--because after three consecutive one-flips, I actually am seriously doubting that there is a serial killer, and am thinking that my role is simply a red herring.

Does anyone know the standards regarding Normality for including roles that are red-herrings? I can’t see anything on the Wiki page and am by no means an expert on what knocks something out of normality these days. I remember MD threads where some people expressed that a Miller without a Cop is Bastard modding unless explicitly worded in a way to make it clear the companion role might not be in the game.

--

JasonT1981 - 5 (Alicewondering, MagnaofIllusion, Kamrun, DeasVail, Jon_h61)
DeasVail - 5 (JasonT1981, Ghostlin, redFF, DarthYoshi, havingfitz)

Not Voting: (Snakeplissken, Nobody Special)

Prods have been sent to Snakeplissken and Nobody Special.

Two things I’d like to comment on here –

1. I very much dislike that the direction of the day are currently in the hands of Snake and NS, two mega-lurkers.
2. Ghostlin – look at your companions on the Deas wagon. I’m not saying Deas is Town but look at who is with you there. I’d be allergic to having fellow wagon-mates of Jason, redFF and having.

[Nobody Special]

My apologies; after telling Zach that I'd stay in the game to avoid having to find a replacement, I completely forgot about it until being prodded. But I'm here now.

My memory of jason is very scummy. My memory of DV is pretty much null.

I'm totally on board with lynching jason today, and going from there. I don't, however, want to put him at L-1 just yet.

jason: Can you reiterate, please, why you're wiling to sacrifice yourself to save a potential town power role?

DV: One (and only one, please) sentence as to why we should leave you alive. Today or ever.

[jon_h61]

We have to finish and get going, I am not sure of anything right now. It'll be late tonight before I MAY get a chance to read the thread. I'm leaving my vote where it is cuz I don't really have time to do anything else. Sorry I'm not more help. After this trip I'll be a more active scum hunter.

[DeasVail]

NS: Because I'm town and if Jason is lynched, I'll be close to confirmed.

MoI: I didn't realise at the time that saying I didn't want to be tracked may make it more likely for me to be tracked, but I knew that there was no way I was going to be visiting anybody, and a no result on me would not have made a difference as to anyone's read of me. It'd be better to have the chance to actually get a result.

Please no one hammer me before expressing intent to. I have some thoughts I want to get out there, but would rather wait until after Jason's lynch.