New York 146 Zach's Insane Mafia World (OVER)

[DeasVail]

*Fitz voted me

[Nobody Special]

Does anyone think that NS is appearing too helpful to be town?

You know, I do have my moments of usefulness.

Occasionally.

[jon_h61]

@ Deas Is "I found so and so scummy" your way of scumhunting? I'd be a hard sell if that is your best argument. My understanding of you so far is, if anyone suspects or votes you, then they are scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

It's nothing I can put my finger on right this second, and I'd have to read Alice & jason in iso together, but I could see her actions as very hard bussing.

So what do you think regarding Alice’s claim –

1. That Alice made the whole ‘Tracker’ claim up and has fake her way through 5 nights of results?
2. That the Mafia have both a Watcher and a Tracker?

And please tell me that you possibly think Alice could be scum after this.

Also, MoI is almost totally scum by dint of still being alive. If there's four mafia, no SK (meaning DY is in fact a RH), then it could be Alice + MoI.

So you suspect Alice for bizzare reasons, me simply because I’m alive, and come to the conclusion that we are scum together.

Why, all of the sudden, are you so active in this game NS?

--

Also, MOI, weren't you weak doc? You targeted me on N2, which means I'm not scum if you accept MOI-town premise. Who did you target on N1?

Nope, straight up regular Doc (aside from 2 shot). And once again I targeted Deas N1 as he was my strongest living Town read.

--

DeasVail, for reasons that should be obvious.

Why didn’t you investigate redFF as Ghostlin requested and you agreed to?

As an aside, is anyone else surprised that MOI is still alive? I know it's a weak argument, but really, there are a bare handful of players for whom being alive this long in a game would be any sort of a scumtell, but he's in that bare handful. I mean, for fuck's sake, his title is "...was killed N1."

Let’s discuss this. I really want to see you reason this through in public. Please agree or disagree with the following statements –

1. I received significant suspicion Day 1 (and Day 2) due to my decision to hang back (preserving my ability to get both protects off) that I would be viewed as a viable mislynch to scum.
2. That strictly on Power Role claims that were made public during the full-claim (or prior) I was far from a priority target for scum.

Once you’ve addressed those we can happily discuss. Because the “Why is you alive” is an unanswerable question on my end. The only response I could possibly have regardless of my alignment is “because I am not a priority threat to scum at this point”.

Finally one more question for you – did you attack me Day 1 for questioning Jason’s early claim? I believe that is the case but without archives I can’t be certain.

--

Guarded kamrun, guess i was blocked -___________-

So you’ve guarded the players that got Nightkilled twice in a row?

Why did you decide to guard Kamrun the person who blocked you from guarding Muffin?

[redFF]

They were pretty much the strongest power role left in the game, and I had a town read on them, and iirc they were regarded as town by many players in the game, and a likely nk if town.

Plus, they had already blocked me once and it looked like they intended to block me again, and I half hoped they would be killed while blocking the one person that could save them, which is what it looks like happened.

Oh the irony.

[Nobody Special]

It's nothing I can put my finger on right this second, and I'd have to read Alice & jason in iso together, but I could see her actions as very hard bussing.

So what do you think regarding Alice’s claim –

1. That Alice made the whole ‘Tracker’ claim up and has fake her way through 5 nights of results?
2. That the Mafia have both a Watcher and a Tracker?

And please tell me that you possibly think Alice could be scum after this.

Okay, you bring good points. I'm going to re-read some, but I imagine that Alice isn't faking (must check her results, though), and no, I doubt mafia has both a tracker AND a watcher.

Also, MoI is almost totally scum by dint of still being alive. If there's four mafia, no SK (meaning DY is in fact a RH), then it could be Alice + MoI.

So you suspect Alice for bizzare reasons, me simply because I’m alive, and come to the conclusion that we are scum together.

Essentially, yes. I did stress that this was preliminary reasoning, and that I would have to go back and re-read carefully.

Why, all of the sudden, are you so active in this game NS?

If you recall, pre-crash, I had asked for replacement. My reason, though not stated at the time, was that I was overloaded. I was in something like 9 or 10 games. However, two things happened: I moved, thus relieving an

enormous

amount of stress from my domestic/personal life, and then we had the crash, which alleviated me from a handful of games. Given that I'm now in only three games, with the bonus of a peaceful and blissful home life, I decided to stay in this game and not make Zach find a replacement in the current difficult environment. I'm also actively trying to limit myself in number of games in order to improve my play. (On re-reading what I just typed: it's not some elaborate AtE; it's just the new direction my life and mafia career is headed.)

[Ghostlin]

As an aside, is anyone else surprised that MOI is still alive? I know it's a weak argument, but really, there are a bare handful of players for whom being alive this long in a game would be any sort of a scumtell, but he's in that bare handful. I mean, for fuck's sake, his title is "...was killed N1."

Too soon in a large. Wait a couple of days.

Hrmph. I don't know who Kamrun blocked yet, but red's stretching it to me. I have a few possibilities for votes here, I need to consult my notes.

[DarthYoshi]

Hey, bro, do you know what MOI claimed? 2-shot doctor who has used his ability twice. He is effectively a VT. Maybe you should have paid closer attention to the thread.

Then please explain this quote from you:

Also, MOI, weren't you weak doc? You targeted me on N2, which means I'm not scum if you accept MOI-town premise.

Onward...

I think it's just 14:4. No SK. You telling the truth about your target means nothing. You know there is a tracker in the game, so there isn't motivation to lie. But your post is strangely angry. Hmm.

So, we agree on the 14:4 setup. I've said repeatedly that I think my role is a red herring, and that 4 scum makes the most sense w/ 18 players regardless of there being an SK or not. So why again is it scummy for me to think this, but not you?

And yes, my tone was hella frustrated. Your result should clear me as town, but instead you're coming up with a hyper-specific hypothetical to push my lynch. Without that hypothetical, I HAVE to be town, regardless of whether you like my crumb or not. YOU ARE PUSHING MY LYNCH BASED ON SOMETHING THAT IS COMPLETE, 100% SPECULATION. So you bet your boots I'm not happy about it.

My thoughts on DY:

I really thought he was scummy pre-crash, and his scumread of me also makes me think he is scum. I don't think he would have it as town, and I really doubt he'd be so consistent with it. He's familiar with my meta and I'd expect him not to be completely wrong about me. He even says "the way DV is acting, I am so very, very down for giving him rope"- This comes after my fakeclaim comment and I think town-DY would consider me more likely town after my response to Jason's claim rather than more likely scum.

He also doesn't consider my arguments

.

Does the bolded make me scummy, or you just sound butthurt?

To your point, you've done things that I can't imagine town-DV doing, from your erratic behavior vis-a-vis Kamrun (who, now that I know they were town, really makes it look like you were trying to white knight them pre-crash) to your "DON'T TRACK ME, BRO!!!" cries. I've simply never seen you do either such thing as town.

Why didn’t you investigate redFF as Ghostlin requested and you agreed to?

This is embarrassing. I forgot about that until you posted that. I investigated DV because of the speculation from you and others about him as an SK candidate and had forgotten that Ghosty wanted to direct my action.

Let’s discuss this. I really want to see you reason this through in public. Please agree or disagree with the following statements –

1. I received significant suspicion Day 1 (and Day 2) due to my decision to hang back (preserving my ability to get both protects off) that I would be viewed as a viable mislynch to scum.
2. That strictly on Power Role claims that were made public during the full-claim (or prior) I was far from a priority target for scum.

Once you’ve addressed those we can happily discuss. Because the “Why is you alive” is an unanswerable question on my end. The only response I could possibly have regardless of my alignment is “because I am not a priority threat to scum at this point”.

Finally one more question for you – did you attack me Day 1 for questioning Jason’s early claim? I believe that is the case but without archives I can’t be certain.

1. Agree, but that wasn't the only reason you received suspicion. It is a true statement, but an incomplete one. Following D2, you have basically ceased to be any kind of a mislynch target.

2. I can't comment definitively. If the "Why are you alive" question is unanswerable on your end, then "Why did the scum target X or Y" is equally unanswerable from my end. If we are going to play that game, though, camn dying N1 should be a finger in your direction because she pushed for your lynch at least as hard as I did, if not harder.

I honestly can't say for certain that I attacked you on D1 regarding Jason's claim. I want that you are correct there, but I'm not 100% positive.

Pedit: I'll agree w/ red. Assuming he isn't today's lynch, I'll actually remember to investigate him tonight.

[DeasVail]

@ Deas Is "I found so and so scummy" your way of scumhunting? I'd be a hard sell if that is your best argument. My understanding of you so far is, if anyone suspects or votes you, then they are scum?

Yes it is, and usually when I focus on those that suspect me, my reads are good. Actually, there have been times where I've not suspected people who express suspicion of me and had incorrect reads as a result.

Does the bolded make me scummy, or you just sound butthurt?

To your point, you've done things that I can't imagine town-DV doing, from your erratic behavior vis-a-vis Kamrun (who, now that I know they were town, really makes it look like you were trying to white knight them pre-crash) to your "DON'T TRACK ME, BRO!!!" cries. I've simply never seen you do either such thing as town.

I am butthurt, and whenever I have been before, it's been scum that's responsible.

And now I'm more convinced of you being scum. You know my behaviour as scum is not erratic. You know that I wouldn't do those things as scum and you know that I'm town. In one of my town games, it was for erratic behaviour that you got me lynched.

Concluding your argument with "I've simply never seen you do either such thing as town" is even more scummy. Why would you not expect differences in my town play considering 1180?

Why are you so desperate to maintain suspicion of me? I thought you would've just given up by now.

[DeasVail]

MoI, why did you think it at all possible that I could have been killed N1?

[havingfitz]

They were pretty much the strongest power role left in the game, and I had a town read on them, and iirc they were regarded as town by many players in the game, and a likely nk if town.

Plus, they had already blocked me once and it looked like they intended to block me again, and I half hoped they would be killed while blocking the one person that could save them, which is what it looks like happened.

Oh the irony.

Why would you hope for Kamrun to get killed while blocking you? Why would you think Kamrun deserved your protection over Alice. Do you think scum (mafia and/or sk???) would feel getting kept...or having their targets kept, was more dangerous then being tracked during the commission of a NK? Also...what led you to think they were going to block you again?

Things I'm less confident of today (D5); that there is an anti-town faction other than mafia, that redFF's claim is legitimate, and that DY's claim is legitimate.
Things I am more confident of today; Alice is telling the truth.

So I've got two confirmed town IMO (Ghostlin and Alice) and no one else. The next closest sure thing for me would be MOI (I think he is town...partly for his play and partly for his claim). Everyone else still in the air for me. I'm liking red and DV today but I'll see how they play for a bit today before I decide.

PS...where's Snake?

[redFF]

Kamrun was a strong townread claimed power role, so i protected them.
Fairly sure they heavily implied they were going to block me again, if not outright saying it.

Do you think scum (mafia and/or sk???) would feel getting kept...or having their targets kept, was more dangerous then being tracked during the commission of a NK?

Not even going to answer this, very WIFOMy, that said, kamrun is dead today not alice soo?

[Alicewondering]

Alice, what do you think DY's role is?

I found Jon scummy the previous day. What do the rest of you think of him?

I don't like Havingfitz very much and he voted Jason, while presenting it as very logical, when I think considering Jason's play post-crash, and also my arguments about how I couldn't have performed the kill, Jason should have been the logical choice.

I don't like Ghostlin's vote on me either, but 93 reads as townish. He also seems too eager to distance from and hammer Jason despite his vote on me. If you preferred me as a lynch why didn't you try harder to get me lynched instead of changing as soon as a Jason-lynch looked likely?

Does anyone think that NS is appearing too helpful to be town?

I have no idea what hypo-scum-DY's role is. He could be a roleblocker, though I don't know why he would pick you. He might just be plain mafia goon. Who knows.

I don't think Jon is scummy. Why do you think he is?

I don't think Ghostlin is scummy either. He was clearly fine with either lynch, so why would he feel the need to push one over the other?

No, I don't think NS is appearing to helpful to be town.

----

I could see scum-NS testing the waters with his "Alice is scum" statement, and when it doesn't receive approval, he backs off appeasingly.

UNVOTE: There are a few people I don't feel great about that I need to reconsider.

Also

@Snake, you need to post buddy. Who do you think is scum?

Then please explain this quote from you:

What is there to explain? I mistakenly thought MOI was weak doc in addition to his 2-shot.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/posting.php? ... &p=3928935

So, we agree on the 14:4 setup. I've said repeatedly that I think my role is a red herring, and that 4 scum makes the most sense w/ 18 players regardless of there being an SK or not. So why again is it scummy for me to think this, but not you?

Y U NO UNDERSTAND MY WORDS.

- a post that assumed the existence of 4 mafia, which I thought was a slip. In retrospect, it seems to be even more incriminating, given that an FBI agent would have suspected a multiball situation with 3 maf and 1 SK, rather than 4 mafia......

I am talking about the pre-crash post you made, pre-claim, that suggested you had prior knowledge of the scum setup. I called you out on that during the game. In retrospect, that speculation does not make sense with your claimed role. I'm asking Camn for the recovered posts so I can point out that post to you.

camn dying N1 should be a finger in your direction because she pushed for your lynch at least as hard as I did, if not harder.

No, Camn dying was a result of her being obvtown.

[DeasVail]

um, Alice...

[Alicewondering]

um, Alice...

Wat

[DeasVail]

I have no idea what hypo-scum-DY's role is. He could be a roleblocker, though I don't know why he would pick you. He might just be plain mafia goon.

[Alicewondering]

I don't see the problem, unless you are referring to the fact that you're still alive, which I have already explained that it might have happened via a jailkeep by Kamrun, which would make a redFF/DY team plausible.

[DeasVail]

So you're saying there are two scumteams (despite there never being more than one kill a night) and that one of them actually wanted me dead?

[Alicewondering]

No I'm not. There are likely 2 remaining members. A redFF/DY team is plausible.

[DeasVail]

So you do think it's plausible that DY killed/roleblocked me?

[havingfitz]

So you do think it's plausible that DY killed/roleblocked me?

How would this be possible or even make sense?
Are you suggesting DY tried to kill you?
Are you suggesting DY tried to roleblock you?

I don't see what you are saying. If you are saying DY tried to kill you then the only reason you would still be alive is if either he or you were jailkept by Kamrun. Unless you think there is an ADDITIONAL protection PR that has not claimed. Which I do not see being the case if they were town...and if there was a scum one left...I don't see them trying to protect you or impacting DY's claimed night action capability over saaaaaaay Kamrun's or Alice's.

And if you are suggesting Kamrun did something to impact DY's night action or your survival...then you are in direct contradiction with redFF's situtation.

So please elaborate.

[redFF]

Lack of SK makes DY look worse and worse. Him not investigating me when he promised to also seems weird.

speculation: If DY is scum, he's probably going to have to fake a guilty at some point to avoid lynch. Perhaps dy didn't "investigate" me because he plans on fakeclaiming a guilty tomorrow.

I seem to recall having an hf scumread before the crash, the fact that he's pushing dv, the player who jason 1v1d yesterday, as well as thinking moi is semi-confirmed town doesn't sit well with me.

vote:hf

willing to switch to dy and possibly snake if he doesn't post today.

[Alicewondering]

So you do think it's plausible that DY killed/roleblocked me?

How would this be possible or even make sense?
Are you suggesting DY tried to kill you?
Are you suggesting DY tried to roleblock you?

I don't see what you are saying. If you are saying DY tried to kill you then the only reason you would still be alive is if either he or you were jailkept by Kamrun. Unless you think there is an ADDITIONAL protection PR that has not claimed. Which I do not see being the case if they were town...and if there was a scum one left...I don't see them trying to protect you or impacting DY's claimed night action capability over saaaaaaay Kamrun's or Alice's.

And if you are suggesting Kamrun did something to impact DY's night action or your survival...then you are in direct contradiction with redFF's situtation.

So please elaborate.

Why aren't you reading carefully? I believe this should be addressed to me, not DV. I hypothesized that Kamrun jailed hypo-DV-SK. I'm highly skeptical of redFF's claim to have protected Kamrun.

Everyone, top two scumreads go. Mine are DY and redFF as mentioned before.

[havingfitz]

I am reading carefully Alice...I still do not understand where DV's question is coming from. The "DY killed/roleblocked me?" part specifically. I understand your points and agree in the possibilities based on not knowing what Kamrun did.

@redFF....you say you are fairly sure Kamrun implied they were going to block you. Can you show where?

Scumreads would be DV and redFF...and DY a stand-by at 3rd if neither of them flip SK. If we wind up hitting an SK DY goes to a townread for me.

[Ghostlin]

By the way, should

Jason's

wagon reach L-1, put me down for intent to hammer.

Scum Jason

hasn't explained what he's done for Town, how concealing an investigation target is remotely Town since the person he's protecting lied to us (btw, massclaim, not optional), and why the 1v1 today would do anything to remotely clear him with the possible existance of a Serial Killer.

That's right kids, I'll put it in black and white for you: I'm OK with EITHER lynch today.

Also, the DV/

Jason

interaction reads like two actors performing a play: DV's not showing any outrage or even what I'll call a 'LOLWUT' response (which isn't necessarily a Town tell, but would be expected in this) and

Jason

is really smug, particularly with the above post of 'See, I caught DV! You can't lynch me now, I'm so OMG town.'

Are there other people who are reading the same thing?

I was so distancting from Jason. After all, I mention Jason by name four times before I hammered him in three posts. I even say I'm OK with either lynch, but I was so distancing from Jason because he and I are secret scum buddy bros and stuff.