Open Setups

[Fiasco]

Discussions of some ideas for open setups were competing with requests for review in the Setup Review thread. So here's a new thread just to have open setups reviewed, discussed, and so on.

If I ever get around to moderating a game, I'll probably make it a regular mini with some open setup. I have no strong preferences myself, so "I'd really like to play a C9/Mountainous/Dethy/Texas Justice/whatever game" posts are also welcome.

Meanwhile, I still like this idea just for the WIFOM opportunities:

Bitter Medicine Mafia: One mafia killer, one mafia doctor, one serial killer, nine pro-town doctors. A doc prevents mafia/SK kills as usual, but anyone who gets targeted by multiple docs in the same night dies, except for the serial killer, who is immune to this effect.

[Fiasco]

Continued from: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=325

Roleblocked cops get reversed results.

I don't think this accomplishes much. If a mafia roleblocker is guaranteed to be in the game, I don't think it accomplishes anything, since he'll decide whether to block the cop by flipping a coin.

Not until he knew who the cop was. And I wouldn't let the cop know whether he was roleblocked. Cops in general (both sane and insane) would be less useful than if they didn't get any results at all when blocked, I think.

I agree with that. But if the cop is outed, and it's known that there's a mafia blocker, the cop will essentially have "random" sanity, which is not much fun.

Unless the mafia blocker gets blocked, or the mafia blocker wants to block some other role. But otherwise, yeah, good point.

The Devil

: looks for cops.

The Demon

: roleblocker that inverts cop results.

The Reaper

: gets one extra kill in the game.

Devil is interesting, but I'm not sure how that role should be played. Do you find the cop, come out and say "So-and-so is the Cop FYI", and hope the town wastes a lynch on you instead of scum?

The idea was to have these three roles be the mafia together; just like goons, but each with an extra ability.

Here's my stab at it: 3 mafia. 50% chance of an SK. Town gets two power roles if no SK, three if there is. Pick from: cop (67% sane, 33% insane), doctor, vigilante, blocker, mason pair.

That looks interesting, but one problem is that whether there's a cop depends on the initial luck of the draw, and that can make or break a game. Also, it's a shame there are never multiple cops.

[Fiasco]

Adele, I think (except for flavor reasons) you may as well make your reverse cops sane; the only thing that changes is that it switches around the labels "innocent" and "guilty" in such a way that targets with a result of "innocent" are more often innocent than targets with a result of "guilty", instead of the other way around. Your setup is a bit like a setup with one guaranteed insane cop only: people are just going to treat that cop as sane except that "innocent" means "guilty" and vice versa. Or like a setup with three godfathers, eight millers, and one sane cop, which amounts to the same thing.

The "Groza Classic" or "dethy-squared" setup has two sane, two reversed, two naive, two paranoid, and one retired cop (who takes on the sanity of the cop killed N1). Your setup is the same except with a random, a naive and a paranoid cop (all worse than vanilla) instead of the sane cops and retired cop. I don't think the dethy-squared town is seen as very overpowered, so I think your town is probably underpowered. I'm thinking about how you could fix that without making it the same as dethy-squared. Maybe have only two mafia? Maybe you could have Noisy Cops: each night they have a 50% chance of getting a correct/sane result and a 50% chance of getting a random result.

[Fiasco]

They played Groza/dethy-squared on the grey labyrinth a few times. I think I skimmed the first one once... it was quite interesting, but maybe more as a logic puzzle than as mafia. (Which isn't necessarily bad.)

http://www.greylabyrinth.com/discussion ... php?t=6141
http://www.greylabyrinth.com/discussion ... php?t=6146

Groza/dethy-squared and dethy also have wiki pages here, I think.

but have GF always appear innocent to everyone (which I think makes paranoids better than vanilla)

They'd be better than vanilla on the one hand, but worse than vanilla on the other hand... I think that would still be an underpowered town. One sane + one insane is worse than two insane, I think.

[Fiasco]

Interesting, but town still seems underpowered and too dependent on initial luck. In the best case, you're back to Groza; in the worst case, it's the mafia vs. a lot of horribly confused useless cops.

What about having each of the three mafia be a godfather w.r.t. a different sort of cop? You could have three almost-sane cops that way.

[Fiasco]

I've been considering for a while splitting the "Normal" forum into a smallish set of "standard" Open (or possibly Semi-Open) games (which would be great for first time mods; they'd have a chance to get a handle on managing a game without having to worry about getting the balance right their first time out) and then more complicated (but still normal) games (Open or Closed) as usual.

Would these be large-sized games, mini-sized games, or both?



Large-sized open setups I remember seeing:

* Back to Gambits
* Himalayan Mafia
* Bad Idea Mafia
* Choose Your Own Role Mafia
* Choose Someone Else's Role Mafia
* Texas Justice (4 mafia, 16 one-shot vigs)

Large-sized open setups I'd like to see (not necessarily more than once):

* dethy^3 (whatever that means)
* Mafia vs Werewolves vs Something Else (Aliens come to mind. Maybe a Gambits variation with Aliens, a Scientist (alien cop), and a Medic (alien doc)?)

[Fiasco]

PBuG, I'm not sure whether 1/3 sane 1/3 insane 1/3 random is a good cop set... I imagine the sane and insane cop would be useless until it became clear there were two cops with opposite results, and then you'd suddenly have two useful cops. (Or you could identify them by looking at the percentage of guilty results... hmm.) (edit: never mind, this isn't true.)

You'd have to think about whether the order could confirm people. For example, if roleblocker is the last pro-town choice left, then the roleblocker can say "roleblocker was the only choice" and be confirmed.

Another dethyish setup idea. I have no idea whether this would work:

3 mafia
3 werewolves
3 aliens
2 universal cops (sane and insane)
2 mafia cops (sane and insane)
2 werewolf cops (sane and insane)
2 alien cops (sane and insane)
2 naive cops
2 paranoid cops
3 retired cops

24 total

None of the cops are told what kind of cop they are, of course. They get "innocent" and "guilty" rather than for example "werewolf" and "not werewolf". Nightkills may dominate this one too much; maybe let cops investigate on odd nights, scum kill on even nights, and remove the retired cops. For more fun you could add cops that respond to two of the three scum types.

[Fiasco]

Mith, that one's interesting, thanks

Shamrock, that sounds like a good solution (better than forbidding certain conversations). Have everyone put all choices in order of preference; then put the players in a random order, and give each player the highest choice that's still available.

I'm still not 100% sure there couldn't be problems. If people can talk about the preference order they sent in, scum will probably have to lie. In theory, it should still be possible to use these claimed orderings as information. In practice, I doubt it.

I really like the idea of choosing your own role in general, though it's different from how you'd usually think about mafia and may lead to all sorts of problems.

[Fiasco]

Here's a setup idea in progress. I bet something like this has been done, but not quite in this way.

3

mafia

3

werewolves

3

aliens

18?

townies

(but see below)

Each scum group kills once per night. Town lynches 2? people per day. Game starts with day.

Each player starts out with one Item, assigned at random. (Or maybe just most players.) Items can be used at night, then

must

be given to another player during the same night. (No choice = random.) One player can receive any number of Items, and use them all the next night (and then has to give them all away again, etc). So to be clear, an ability is never in the same hands twice in a row.

Incomplete list of Items:

* Cop Badge (grants mafia/not-mafia investigation)
* Crystal Ball (grants werewolf/not-werewolf investigation)
* Scanner (grants alien/not-alien investigation)

* First-Aid Kit (grants doc protect against mafia)
* Magic Wand (grants doc protect against werewolves)
* Test Tube (grants doc protect against aliens)

* Bulletproof Vest (grants self-protect against mafia)
* Wolfsbane (grants self-protect against werewolves)
* Tinfoil Hat (grants self-protect against aliens)

* Pistol (grants vig attempt; effective against all mafia and 1/3 of all townies)
* Silver Dagger (grants vig attempt; effective against all werewolves and 1/3 of all townies)
* Zapper Gun (grants vig attempt; effective against all aliens and 1/3 of all townies)

(Each townie is vulnerable to exactly one out of these three; together, they add up to a full vig, but individually they give some information as well.)

* Halo (distributed at random among non-mafia; otherwise useless)
* Chain Letter (distributed at random among non-werewolves; otherwise useless)
* Frisbee (distributed at random among non-aliens; otherwise useless)

There's a lot more room for fun Items, such as Randomizers. (Maybe one Item that redistributes all mafia-related Items at random, and similar Items for the Werewolves and Aliens.)

An Item is lost if the player

receiving

it is nightkilled, or if the player who has it is lynched. If the town decides to give all Items to the same person, that person will be nightkilled, because the self-protect Items (like all other Items) don't go into effect until the next night. (Problem: what if the docs also protect that person? Bah! Maybe the scum should have the option to rob someone's house instead of killing, taking all their items out of the game even in case of a doc/bulletproof protect. Yeah, I really like that idea; it solves all remaining Item concentration problems.)

Some of the players should actually be masons. That could mean one group of full masons, who know each other to be innocent; or three groups of one-third masons, who know each other not to be mafia (werewolves, aliens); or three smaller groups of two-thirds masons, who know each other not to be mafia or werewolves (mafia or aliens, werewolves or aliens). Like scumhood, masonhood should be independent of Item assignment.

Decoupling the night-talking and guaranteed innocence aspects of the mason roles suggests more Item ideas:

* Cell Phone (3x) (allows owners to talk to each other at night)
* Mafia-Wolf Translator (when activated by owner, allows mafia and werewolves to send each other anonymous messages via the mod)
* Wolf-Alien Translator
* Mafia-Alien Translator

also:

* Bomb (has a counter that starts at some number (3?), current value unknown to the owner, owner has the option to subtract 1 from the counter, owner dies if it reaches 0)
* Time Bomb (has a counter that starts at some number, current value unknown to the owner, owner has the option to subtract 1 from the counter,

next

owner dies if it reaches 0)
* Potato (indistinguishable from Bomb and Time Bomb, but does nothing)

Endless mischief!

There's a lot of room for changes and additions here. I have no idea how many townies there should be, for one thing.

PS: I doubt I'll get around to running this. If someone else wants to fill it out and run it, that's great; just please don't mess up the pretty symmetry.

[Fiasco]

Thanks; I hadn't seen that one. It's the same mechanic in a closed setup game. I think it will work out differently in practice, though. With Items known to be independent of alignment, and with the list known to everyone, there's almost no reason to mass claim (though it also won't hurt that much, because the scum have to guess the Item receivers; I do expect the owners of the Halo, etc to claim). I don't really expect there to any lies or arguments about the "who gave what to whom" aspect of the game. False claims aren't a viable strategy. I actually had all the Item owners as common knowledge at first, but that made some of them useless.

I should probably add some less-than-sane cop Items. It's boring if cop results are always reliable and can't be counterclaimed. On the other hand, most results will be "innocent" anyway. Maybe an occasional no-brainer lynch isn't that bad.

Also, each scum group should be immune to one nightkill (the first targeting any of them).

[Fiasco]

Gadget Mafia, Mini Test Run Edition

2 Mafia
2 Werewolves
8 Townies

Two randomly selected non-mafia are Masons (and know each other to be non-mafia). Two randomly selected non-werewolves are Monks (and know each other to be non-werewolves).

Win conditions as usual. Everyone dead means draw.

Each scum group is immune to the first nightkill targeting any of its members. (For example, if you nightkill Werewolf A and then nightkill Werewolf B the next night, only Werewolf B dies.)

Start with day. One lynch the first day, then two lynches (in sequence, with immediate reveal) every subsequent day. Lynching someone destroys all Gadgets currently possessed.

At night, scum groups can choose to kill someone or rob someone's house. Killing someone destroys all Gadgets received that night. Robbing someone's house does the same thing, but the target stays alive. Robbing someone's house ignores any protective abilities.

At the start of the game, the following 24 Gadgets are randomly, independently assigned to players:

* Cop Badge (grants investigation next night; mafia and two random townies turn up guilty)
* Crystal Ball (grants investigation next night; werewolves and two random townies turn up guilty)
* First Aid Kit (grants protect against mafia kill next night)
* Magic Wand (grants protect against werewolf kill next night)
* Bulletproof Vest (grants self-protect against mafia kill next night)
* Wolfsbane (grants self-protect against werewolf kill next night)
* Pistol (grants vig shot next night; mafia and four random townies are vulnerable)
* Silver Dagger (grants vig shot next night; werewolves and four random townies are vulnerable)
* Key (grants roleblock attempt effective against mafia kill/robbing next night)
* Rope (grants roleblock attempt effective against werewolf kill/robbing next night)
* Cell Phone (owner can talk to other Cell Phone owner next night)
* Cell Phone (ditto)
* Carrot (owner can eat it during the day (taking it out of the game) and gain an investigation the next night due to better night vision; mafia, werewolves and two random townies turn up guilty)
* Broccoli (owner can eat it during the day (taking it out of the game) and gain immunity to all kills the next night because of the antioxidants, or something)
* Mushroom (owner can eat it during the day (taking it out of the game) and gain a "one-up" (single kill immunity, permanent until used))
* Normal Bomb (has a counter that starts at 2; current counter state unknown to owner; owner can decrease counter by 1 if desired; when counter reaches 0, it blows up, killing the present owner; indistinguishable from Time Bomb and Potato)
* Time Bomb (has a counter that starts at 2; current counter state unknown to owner; owner can decrease counter by 1 if desired; when counter reaches 0, it is activated, killing the next owner; indistinguishable from Normal Bomb and Potato)
* Potato (has a counter that starts at 2; current counter state unknown to owner; owner can decrease counter by 1 if desired; when counter reaches 0, nothing happens; indistinguishable from Normal Bomb and Time Bomb)
* Transmitter (can be turned on or off during the day; when on, mafia and werewolf can send each other two anonymous messages per night through the mod, one received at the midpoint and one at the end of the night)
* Hammer (owner's votes count double)
* Magnet (must be used next night to receive all Gadgets the target would have received)
* Mirror (must be used next night to randomly reassign all Gadgets the target would normally have received)
* Copying Machine (must be used to duplicate any one other Gadget currently in possession, if any)
* Trash Can (must be used to destroy any one other Gadget currently in possession, if any)

(You can copy the trash can or trash the copying machine, but you cannot trash the trash can or copy the copying machine. I'm not quite sure these aren't broken.)

Gadget rules: all Gadgets must be transferred to another player each night, after being used. No choice sent in means another player is chosen at random. Each player will get a list of Gadgets received at the start of each day. Gadgets owned by a lynched player or received by a nightkilled or robbed player disappear from the game. Everyone is informed of Gadgets that disappeared through lynches. Only the nightkilling/robbing scum group is informed of Gadgets that disappear through nightkilling/robbing. Only the owner of the Copying Machine/Trash Can is informed of Gadgets appearing or disappearing in that way. Likewise for the Carrot, Broccoli, and Mushroom.

Balanced? Fun?

[Fiasco]

A doc-only setup would still strongly favor the scum, I think. I think a cop/doc would almost never choose to use the doc ability, though that's not necessarily bad. (Alternative thought: what about giving the town both a doc and a cop, but making the cop undocprotectable?) (Other alternative thought: I'd also like to see the Pie C9 setup tried out once, meaning the town has a guaranteed cop and doc but the mafia has a roleblocker.)

[Fiasco]

Gadget Mafia, Insane Bookkeeping Nightmare Edition

3

Mafia

(kills N1, N2, N5, N6, etc)
3

Werewolves

(kills N1, N3, N5, N7, etc)
3

Aliens

(kills N1, N4, N5, N8, etc)
3

Demons

(kills N2, N3, N6, N7, etc)
3

Orcs

(kills N2, N4, N6, N8, etc)
3

Robots

(kills N3, N4, N7, N8, etc)

18

Townies

There are six "1/6 mason" groups that know each other not to be in one of the scum groups. Each such group has 3 members chosen randomly from among the remaining 33 players.

Not Mafia -- Masons
Not Werewolves -- Monks
Not Aliens -- Illuminati
Not Demons -- Priests
Not Orcs -- Knights
Not Robots -- Conspirators

There are two "1/2 mason" groups that know each other not to be in three of the scum groups. Both these groups have 2 members chosen randomly from among the remaining 27 players.

Not Mafia, Aliens, or Robots -- "The Clean"
Not Werewolves, Demons, or Orcs -- "The Pure"

None of these partial masons can talk to each other unless they have the right Gadgets.

Gadgets work as in the Mini edition.

* 6 partial cop items (again mostly sane)
* 6 partial doc items
* 6 partial bulletproof items
* 6 partial vig items
* 6 partial blocker items
* 6 partial "confirmed innocent" items
* 3 cell phones (owners can talk as if they were masons)
* 3 pieces of paper (owner can write anything on it and read previous messages written on it)
* normal bomb, time bomb, potato
* carrot, broccoli, mushroom, spinach (spinach grants one-shot universal vig attempt)
* hammer (grants double vote), shovel (require 1 extra vote to be lynched because of digging in), silencer (owner cannot vote), disruptor (owner can negative-vote instead of vote)
* three indistinguishable remote controls
* TNT (kills owner when remote control used), intercom (allows owner to send anonymous messages when remote control used), recycling device (owner gains random "dead" item when remote control used)
* trash can, copying machine, disintegrator (kills one of your target's items)
* magnet, mirror
* jammer (owner cannot use items)
* 6 transmitters; each allows one of the scum groups to send anonymous messages when turned on
* possibly more

[Fiasco]

I suppose so... but I could see it being of some use, and there's no reason all gadgets need to be very useful (there are a lot).

[Fiasco]

Win conditions would be play on until everyone except for one team is dead, then that team wins. I don't think there's any way for the game to get stuck with more than one team alive. That leaves the case where everyone ends up dead. Not sure what rule I'd use there -- maybe just a draw between the teams that survived the longest.

This might have been confusing:

None of these partial masons can talk to each other unless they have the right Gadgets.

I agree that 1/6-masons don't really have more reason to fish for the cell phones than ordinary townies. Masonhood doesn't affect any game mechanics other than partial knowledge of innocence.

BTW: I'm considering just giving each group a 50% chance of getting to kill each night, rather than having a fixed pattern. It increases the role of luck somewhat, but otherwise all the protection items are known useless half the time.

[Fiasco]

C9++

First, get 8 random results from the following distribution:


50% townie
15% cop
10% doc
10% vig
10% mason
5% blocker

Then you end up with "cop" N times, "doc" M times, and so on. Instead of giving the town N cops and M docs, consult a table like the following:

C = insane cop + paranoid cop (not really happy with this)
CC = sane cop + naive cop
CCC = sane cop + insane cop
CCCC = sane cop + insane cop + naive cop + paranoid cop + backup cop
CCCCC = sane cop + sane cop + naive cop + backup cop
...

D = weak doctor (ineffective when protecting pro-town power roles)
DD = weak doctor + full doctor
DDD = weak doctor + full doctor + backup doctor
DDDD = full doctor + full doctor + backup doctor
...

V = one-shot vig
VV = one-shot vig + one-shot day vig
VVV = full vig + one-shot day vig
VVVV = full vig + one-shot vig + one-shot day vig
...

M = mod-confirmed innocent
MM = mason pair
MMM = two mod-confirmed innocents
MMMM = mason trio
...

B = blocker
BB = blocker + blocker
BBB = strong blocker (ineffective when blocking pro-town power roles) + backup blocker
BBBB = strong blocker + blocker + backup blocker
...

The rest are townies.

All backups take on the sanity/effectiveness of the first role of their type that dies. If more than one dies at the same time, they get to choose.

The nature of the scum (and possibly SK) then depends on the number of "townie" results above according to another table. The more "townie" results, the weaker the scum.

For example:
TTTTTTTT: 2 mafia goons who can't kill N1
TTTTTTT: 2 mafia goons
TTTTTT: 3 mafia goons
TTTTT: 1 mafia godfather, 2 mafia goons
TTTT: 3 mafia goons, 1 SK (with single kill immunity)
TTT: 1 mafia godfather, 2 mafia goons, 1 SK (with cop immunity and single nightkill immunity)
TT: 1 mafia godfather, 1 mafia roleblocker, 1 mafia goon, 1 SK (with cop immunity and full nightkill immunity)
T: 1 mafia godfather, 1 mafia roleblocker, 1 mafia goon with extra kill, 1 SK (with cop immunity and full nightkill immunity)
0: 1 mafia godfather, 1 mafia roleblocker, 2 mafia goons

All kills are indistinguishable. All mafia, including roleblockers and godfathers, show up as just "mafia" on death.

The idea is to make each increment in the roles about equally useful to the town. This is pretty tricky, because you also want to avoid people getting too much information from the table ("if I'm the backup cop, the other cop must be sane"). Randomizing between multiple equally powerful possibilities for each entry would help here, but would also complicate the setup further.

This is just a first attempt, and there are probably still a lot of bad balance decisions.

Some more random comments:
* This was designed for 12-player games, but it should be easy to extend to any number.
* On average there should be 4 non-townie results from the randomization, which means something like 3-4 power roles, mostly weaker than average.
* If each increment on the roles table really is equally useful, and if the scum table matches the town with scum of the right strength, in theory it should be OK to let either the scum or a pro-town team captain choose rather than randomizing. But that's a big "if".
* Some randomly generated setups using this method (it's fairly quick):

2 townies
2 masons
1 confirmed innocent
1 one-shot vig
1 insane cop
1 paranoid cop
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons
1 SK (cop-immune, single kill immune)

3 townies
1 confirmed innocent
1 weak doctor
1 full vig
1 one-shot vig
1 one-shot day vig
1 mafia godfather
1 mafia roleblocker
1 mafia goon
1 SK (cop-immune, kill-immune)
(this one was rather extreme in the vig department)

2 masons
1 one-shot vig
1 one-shot day vig
1 insane cop
1 paranoid cop
1 weak doctor
1 full doctor
1 mafia godfather
1 mafia roleblocker
1 mafia goon with extra kill
1 SK (cop-immune, kill-immune)
(this one was rather extreme in the power roles department; the others were also above average)

6 townies
1 weak doctor
1 one-shot vig
3 mafia goons

3 townies
1 weak doctor
2 sane cops
1 naive cop
1 backup cop
1 mafia godfather
1 mafia roleblocker
1 mafia goon
1 SK (cop-immune, nightkill immune)

6 townies
1 insane cop
1 paranoid cop
1 one-shot vig
3 mafia goons

3 townies
2 masons
1 one-shot vig
1 insane cop
1 paranoid cop
3 mafia goons
1 SK (single nightkill immune)

9 townies
1 confirmed innocent
2 mafia goons

5 townies
1 insane cop
1 paranoid cop
1 weak doctor
1 full doctor
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons

6 townies
1 weak doctor
1 full doctor
1 confirmed innocent
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons

5 townies
1 insane cop
1 paranoid cop
1 weak doctor
1 confirmed innocent
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons

2 townies
2 full doctors
1 backup doctor
1 one-shot vig
1 confirmed innocent
1 blocker
1 mafia godfather
1 mafia roleblocker
1 mafia goon with extra kill
1 SK (cop-immune, nightkill-immune)

4 townies
1 sane cop
1 naive cop
1 blocker
1 one-shot vig
3 mafia goons
1 SK (single nightkill immune)

And so on. I'm not sure I'm letting scum strength vary enough with town strength, but most of these seem reasonably balanced.

[Fiasco]

Good point. Another advantage is not having to have an extra role. So how about:

M = single mason
MM = mason pair
MMM = mason pair + single mason
MMMM = mason trio
MMMMM = two mason pairs
?

I'm least happy about the cops table. One "C" is the most common case (though not by a lot), so if insane cops are that common, people may just treat guilty results as innocent results and vice versa. On the other hand I don't want to have another cop role, like one-shot cop or tracker.

Improved doc table:

D = weak doc + backup doc
DD = weak doc + doc
DDD = weak doc + doc + backup doc
DDDD = doc + doc + backup doc

Improved vig table:

V = one-shot vig
VV = vig
VVV = one-shot vig + vig
VVVV = vig + vig

Improved cop table:

C = sane cop + paranoid cop + 2 millers
CC = sane cop + naive cop
CCC = sane cop + insane cop
CCCC = sane cop + sane cop
CCCCC = sane cop + sane cop + naive cop + backup cop
CCCCCC = sane cop + sane cop + insane cop + backup cop

This turns the list of possible roles into:

Townie
Cop (Sane, Insane, Naive, Paranoid)
Backup Cop
Doctor (Weak, Normal)
Backup Doctor
Blocker (Normal, Strong)
Backup Blocker
One-Shot Vig
Vig
Mason (with 0-2 partners)
Mafia Godfather
Mafia Blocker
Mafia Goon
Mafia Gunman
Serial Killer

a few more random setups:

TTTTTDDM
6 townies
1 weak doc
1 doc
1 mason
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons

TTTCCVVB
4 townies
1 sane cop
1 naive cop
1 vig
1 blocker
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons
1 SK (CI, 1NKI)

TTTTTTVM
7 townies
1 one-shot vig
1 mason
3 mafia goons

TTCCDDVV
3 townies
1 sane cop
1 naive cop
1 weak doc
1 doc
1 vig
1 mafia godfather
1 mafia roleblocker
1 mafia goon
1 SK (CI, NKI)

TTTTCCVM
4 townies
1 sane cop
1 naive cop
1 one-shot vig
1 mason
3 mafia goons
1 SK (1NKI)

TTTTDVMM
3 townies
1 weak doc
1 backup doc
1 one-shot vig
2 masons
3 mafia goons
1 SK (1NKI)

TTTCCCCB
5 townies
2 sane cops
1 blocker
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons
1 SK (CI, 1NKI)

[Fiasco]

I've changed my mind:

What would the win conditions be?

There would be an extra Gadget called the "World Cup" that can't be destroyed (it's randomly reassigned instead). Whoever has the World Cup last wins the game. Usually that means the team that survives longest, which was already the win condition. If all remaining players die at the same time, the team that had the Cup wins. Mostly it amounts to randomizing among the teams that survived longest, but there's also some tactics involved.

This would also make the number of Gadgets exactly twice the number of players, as it is in the mini edition. But that's not really important.

[Fiasco]

C9++, Next Attempt

(and I'm beginning to like it)

Letters Table (roll 8 times):
50% T
15% C
10% D
10% V
10% M
5% B

Roles Table:

C = sane cop + paranoid cop + 2 millers
CC = sane cop + naive cop
CCC = sane cop + insane cop
CCCC = sane cop + sane cop
CCCCC = sane cop + sane cop + naive cop + backup cop
CCCCCC = sane cop + sane cop + insane cop + backup cop
(probabilities 38%, 24%, 8%, 2%, .3%, .02%)

D = weak doc + backup doc
DD = weak doc + doc
DDD = weak doc + doc + backup doc
DDDD = doc + doc + backup doc
DDDDD = doc + doc + backup doc + backup doc
(probabilities 38%, 15%, 3%, .5%, .04%)

V = one-shot vig
VV = vig
VVV = vig + one-shot vig
VVVV = vig + vig
VVVVV = vig + vig + one-shot vig
(probabilities 38%, 15%, 3%, .5%, .04%)

M = 1 mason
MM = 2 masons
MMM = 2 masons + 1 mason
MMMM = 3 masons
MMMMM = 2 masons + 2 masons
(probabilities 38%, 15%, 3%, .5%, .04%)

B = blocker
BB = blocker + blocker
BBB = strong blocker + strong blocker
BBBB = strong blocker + blocker + blocker + backup blocker
(probabilities 28%, 5%, .5%, .04%)

(these probabilities are not independent of one another, obv)

(remaining cases combined are rarer than 1 in 10000, I think, so why bother)

Scum Table:
TTTTTTTT = mafia goon (no kill N1) + mafia goon (no kill N1) + serial killer
TTTTTTT = mafia goon + mafia godfather
TTTTTT = mafia goon + mafia godfather + serial killer (BI)
TTTTT = mafia goon + mafia goon + mafia godfather
TTTT = mafia goon + mafia goon + mafia godfather + serial killer (BI, 1NKI)
TTT = mafia goon + mafia blocker + mafia godfather
TT = mafia goon + mafia blocker + mafia godfather + serial killer (BI, CI, 1NKI)
T = mafia goon + mafia goon + mafia goon + mafia godfather
0 = mafia goon + mafia goon + mafia goon + mafia godfather + serial killer (BI, CI, NKI)

BI = blocker immune
CI = cop immune (result as if townie)
1NKI = single nightkill-immune (survives first nightkill)
NKI = nightkill-immune (survives all nightkills)

Probabilities are .4%, 3%, 11%, 22%, 27%, 22%, 11%, 3%, .4%, respectively. Probability of having a serial killer is about 50%. The serial killer will be told his abilities and therefore knows the number of Ts. The mafia will be told its abilities and therefore knows the approximate number of Ts, but does not know whether there's a serial killer (except in the TTTTTTTT case). The serial killer also wins in case everyone dies (if alive until the last night). (It's thematic, and serial killers need all the breaks they can get.) Cop sanity, mafia or SK abilities, doc and blocker power, millerhood are all not revealed on death.

Some random setups:

TCCVVVVV (not typical, I swear)
3 townies
1 sane cop
1 naive cop
2 vigs
1 one-shot vig
1 mafia godfather
3 mafia goons

TTTTCDDV
1 townie
2 millers
1 sane cop
1 paranoid cop
1 weak doc
1 doc
1 one-shot vig
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons
1 serial killer (BI, 1NKI)

TTTTCDMB
2 millers
1 sane cop
1 paranoid cop
1 weak doc
1 backup doc
1 mason
1 blocker
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons
1 serial killer (BI, 1NKI)

TTTTCCDV
3 townies
1 sane cop
1 naive cop
1 weak doc
1 backup doc
1 one-shot vig
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons
1 serial killer (BI, 1NKI)

TTTTTDDV
6 townies
1 weak doc
1 doc
1 one-shot vig
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons

TTTCCCDM
4 townies
1 sane cop
1 insane cop
1 weak doc
1 backup doc
1 mason
1 mafia godfather
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon

TTTTTTMM
7 townies
2 masons
1 mafia goon
1 mafia godfather
1 serial killer (BI)

TTTCDVVB
1 townie
2 millers
1 sane cop
1 paranoid cop
1 weak doc
1 doc
1 vig
1 blocker
1 mafia godfather
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon

TTTCCCDB
4 townies
1 sane cop
1 insane cop
1 weak doc
1 doc
1 blocker
1 mafia godfather
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon

[Fiasco]

1. If C is chosen, is it possible for power roles to be the millers? And if not, how would you handle, say, the TCDDDVMB setup?

I was thinking of "miller" as a role in itself, which makes it effectively a townie with no other powers. I don't see any elegant solution to the "too many roles" problem you point out; I'm open to suggestions.

2. I would prefer that there be a chance of having exactly ONE cop, and/or exactly ONE doc.

In the setup as it is now, it would usually be unwise for a scum to claim cop or doc before any other cop or doc claims, but do note the possibility of a scum partner backing you up with a matching claim. This isn't ideal, I guess, so maybe you're right.

It would be easier to make this kind of change in an alternative I've been considering, which is to have multiple possibilities for some entries and randomize between them. You could list all the combinations of roles (within the same category) that you could think of, then assign a number (of letters) to each of them.

On reflection I'd like to get rid of the weak docs and strong blockers, because I'd like to restrict the roles to reasonably common/known ones. Maybe replace the weak docs with docs effective on odd/even nights only, though that's not really a normal role either. I'm also intrigued by the possibility of sometimes giving the scum (perhaps the SK?) a Walrus-like role that gets to decide whether docs are effective. (Or a similar role for blockers.)

[Fiasco]

Here's a possible fix that doesn't require multiple entries: use the following table, and rule that doc protects don't work against serial killers.

D = doc
DD = doc + backup doc
DDD = doc + doc
DDDD = doc + doc + backup doc
DDDDD = doc + doc + doc
(probabilities 38%, 15%, 3%, .5%, .04%)

Another possible fix is to replace the weak docs with clumsy docs (martyrs) who die on a successful protect.

Here's a new blocker table with the strong blockers eliminated:

B = blocker
BB = blocker + blocker
BBB = blocker + blocker + backup blocker
BBBB = blocker + blocker + blocker + backup blocker
(probabilities 28%, 5%, .5%, .04%)

(I'm counting a blocker as weaker than a doc: given that both don't work against SKs, both can prevent a kill by picking the one correct target; blockers have the added problem of possibly blocking pro-town roles.)

Still thinking about cops. The problem with single cops is I don't want insane cops to be too common, and naive and paranoid cops are worse than useless, but I don't want a single cop to be confirmed sane either.

(On the other hand, it's a perfect counterclaim opportunity, so maybe the following table is OK:
C: sane cop + 2 millers
CC: sane cop
CCC: sane cop + insane cop
CCCC: sane cop + sane cop
CCCCC: sane cop + sane cop + insane cop
CCCCCC: sane cop + sane cop + sane cop
(probabilities 38%, 24%, 8%, 2%, .3%, .02%)

This table is simpler, too.)

Some more setups with the new doc, blocker, and cop tables:

TTTTDVVV
5 townies
1 doctor
1 vig
1 one-shot vig
1 mafia GF
2 mafia goons
1 SK (DI, BI, 1NKI)

TTDDDMBB
3 townies
2 doctors
1 mason
2 blockers
1 mafia GF
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon
1 SK (DI, BI, CI, 1NKI)

TTTDDDMB
5 townies
2 doctors
1 mason
1 blocker
1 mafia GF
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon

TTTTTCDB
4 townies
2 millers
1 sane cop
1 doctor
1 blocker
1 mafia GF
2 mafia goons

TTTTTCCD
7 townies
1 sane cop
1 doctor
1 mafia GF
2 mafia goons

TTTTTCVB
4 townies
2 millers
1 sane cop
1 one-shot vig
1 blocker
1 mafia GF
2 mafia goons

TTTTTDMB
6 townies
1 doctor
1 mason
1 blocker
1 mafia GF
2 mafia goons

TCCDDDVB
3 townies
1 sane cop
2 doctors
1 one-shot vig
1 blocker
1 mafia GF
3 mafia goons

TTTCCCDV
5 townies
1 sane cop
1 insane cop
1 doctor
1 one-shot vig
1 mafia GF
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon

TTTTDVMB
4 townies
1 doctor
1 one-shot vig
1 mason
1 blocker
1 mafia GF
2 mafia goons
1 SK (DI, BI, 1NKI)

New roles list, with roles on the same line indistinguishable in pm and on death (maybe this should be changed):

cop, insane cop
doc
backup doc
vig
one-shot vig
mason
blocker
backup blocker
townie, miller
mafia, mafia godfather, mafia blocker
serial killer

[Fiasco]

Since blockers can also gain information from blocking I probably underestimated them. I'm making their table the same as for the docs.

I'm also changing the first cop entry to "sane cop + 3 millers", where the millers can be power roles as well as townies (millerhood is distributed randomly among non-cop pro-town roles). Unfortunately, it's still possible (though extremely rare) for there to be 8 power roles and 5 scum.

I probably also overestimated vigs. New table:

V = vig
VV = vig + one-shot vig
VVV = vig + vig
VVVV = vig + vig + one-shot vig
VVVVV = vig + vig + vig

Three more random setups:

TTTTTCDM
4 townies
2 townie-millers
1 sane cop
1 doctor-miller
1 mason
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons

TTTTTTVM
6 townies
1 vig
1 mason
3 mafia goons
1 SK (DI, BI)

TTTTCCMB
5 townies
1 sane cop
1 mason
1 blocker
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons
1 SK (DI, BI, 1NKI)

I'm also strongly considering changing "roll 8 times" to "roll 7 times" (while keeping the same T table), as that would eliminate both the excess roles problem and the weird TTTTTTTT special case. This change weakens the town slightly.

Some random setups with that change:

TTTCDDD
4 townies
2 townie-millers
1 sane cop
1 doctor-miller
1 doctor
1 mafia godfather
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon

TTTTCCV
6 townies
1 sane cop
1 vig
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons
1 serial killer (DI, BI, 1NKI)

TTTTCCV
see above

TTTCDDM
3 townies
2 townie-millers
1 sane cop
2 doctors
1 mason-miller
1 mafia godfather
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon

[Fiasco]

Not mod-confirmed, just known unique and therefore hard to counterclaim. But I'm now thinking it's better for relative power levels to replace the single masons with mod-confirmed innocent children.

[Fiasco]

Heh, I'd forgotten about the "mod-confirmed innocent as target" point again. Though I'm not actually sure the mafia would target such a role early on -- any doctors will protect it. But then half the time there's still the SK who I've made doc-immune...

Unlynchable doesn't really seem to fit in the mason category. Both mod-confirmable-at-will and unlynchable seem like unusual roles; I'd prefer to use only reasonably common roles.

It's not that important for the role to be half as strong as a two-mason group; the other tables are slightly unbalanced as well. Two docs/blockers/vigs aren't three times as powerful as one doc/blocker/vig. (Hmm... maybe double doc protects and double blocker blocks should work against the SK. And maybe the SK should be "single kill per night immune" where he used to be "single kill per game immune". Though that's pretty powerful.)

Trojan Horse, the four scum group does seem strong. It's probably a good idea to take away their godfather, but it may not be enough.

[Fiasco]

C9++, Current Best Shot Edition

12 players. Night start. No unusual mechanics. (But setup can be adapted to changes in any of this.) Roles are selected as follows:

First, generate 7 letters from the following distribution:

50% T
15% C
10% D
10% V
10% M
5% B

Then turn the letters into roles using the following tables. Probabilities are for 0 letters, 1 letter, etc.

C = sane cop + 3 millers (millerhood is distributed randomly among non-cop, non-scum, non-child)
CC = sane cop
CCC = sane cop + insane cop
CCCC = sane cop + sane cop
CCCCC = sane cop + sane cop + insane cop
CCCCCC = sane cop + sane cop + sane cop

(32%, 40%, 21%, 6%, 1%, .1%, .007%)

D = doc
DD = doc + backup doc
DDD = doc + doc
DDDD = doc + doc + backup doc
DDDDD = doc + doc + doc

(48%, 37%, 12%, 2%, .3%, .02%)

V = vig
VV = vig + one-shot vig
VVV = vig + vig
VVVV = vig + vig + one-shot vig
VVVVV = vig + vig + vig

(48%, 37%, 12%, 2%, .3%, .02%)

M = innocent child
MM = 2 masons
MMM = 2 masons + innocent child
MMMM = 3 masons
MMMMM = 2 masons + 2 masons

(48%, 37%, 12%, 2%, .3%, .02%)

B = blocker
BB = blocker + backup blocker
BBB = blocker + blocker
BBBB = blocker + blocker + backup blocker

(70%, 26%, 4%, .4%, .02%)

TTTTTTT = mafia goon + mafia godfather
TTTTTT = mafia goon + mafia godfather + serial killer (DI, BI)
TTTTT = mafia goon + mafia goon + mafia godfather
TTTT = mafia goon + mafia goon + mafia godfather + serial killer (DI, BI, KI)
TTT = mafia goon + mafia blocker + mafia godfather
TT = mafia goon + mafia blocker + mafia godfather + serial killer (DI, BI, CI, KI)
T = mafia spy + mafia blocker + mafia godfather
0 = mafia spy + mafia blocker + mafia godfather + serial killer (DI, BI, CI, KI, SI, RB)

(.8%, 5%, 16%, 27%, 27%, 16%, 5%, .8%; exactly 50% of all games have a serial killer)

Mafia GF appears to cops as a townie. Mafia Spy learns one targeted player's role type each night (T/C/D/V/M/B). (The SK can tell the mod how he wants to appear to the Spy; if the Spy investigates the SK, the SK is notified.)

DI = each kill bypasses single doc protect (but not more)
BI = bypasses single roleblock attempt each night (but not more)
KI = survives one kill attempt each night (but not more)
CI = appears to cops as a townie
SI = appears to mafia spy as desired
RB = has a roleblock ability usable once

No role can target itself.

All kills are indistinguishable.

The mafia and SK know their own abilities. Mafia and SK abilities, cop sanity, and millerhood are not revealed on death.

Last team standing wins. If everyone dies, SK wins or mafia and town draw.

Comments:
* The mafia spy and roleblocking SK are new; I'm not too sure about them. Note that the SK in the 0 case has a large information advantage; the mafia will think there probably is no SK, as the probabilities are .8% and 5% respectively.
* Renaming all possible roles = instant themed mini
* I think the innocent child role isn't

that

weak, and presents interesting tradeoffs. The mafia may target someone else because of possible doc protects or because they want to hit the SK. The SK may target someone else because they want the mafia to do the work of eliminating the innocent child. In any case, nightkilling an innocent child costs the scum at least one nightkill.

edited to include some more random setups:

TTTCMMB
4 townies
1 townie-miller
1 sane cop
2 masons (1 miller)
1 blocker-miller
1 mafia gf
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon

TTTTVVM
5 townies
1 vig
1 one-shot vig
1 innocent child
1 mafia gf
2 mafia goons
1 sk (di, bi, ki)

TTTCCVM
6 townies
1 sane cop
1 vig
1 innocent child
1 mafia gf
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon

TCDMMMB
1 townie
2 townie-millers
1 sane cop
1 doctor
1 innocent child
2 masons
1 blocker-miller
1 mafia gf
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia spy

TTTCMMM
4 townies
1 townie-miller
1 sane cop
1 innocent child
2 mason-millers
1 mafia gf
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon

TTTTDVV
5 townies
1 doc
1 vig
1 one-shot vig
1 mafia gf
2 mafia goons
1 sk (di, bi, ki)

TTTCCDV
6 townies
1 sane cop
1 doc
1 vig
1 mafia gf
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon

[Fiasco]

Why not? Because it doesn't leave enough doubtfuls? I don't think that's such a problem, but maybe there's a different reason.

[Fiasco]

That's a good point that I hadn't considered; however,

1. in 2-doc games, the mafia almost always has a blocker, unless he's dead
2. if the SK is alive, he can bypass the docs
3. as it stands now, some synergy between docs is actually a good thing, because it makes the tables less unbalanced.

Note that 2 vigs vs 2 known mafia and 2 blockers vs 2 known mafia are also draws (except for mafia blockers).

[Fiasco]

Yeah, that works as a solution. But I'm not sure I don't want to keep the problem. A doc pair is only a serious extra advantage if 1) there's no SK, and 2) the mafia blocker dies early. In that situation doc would be a very attractive fake claim for scum to make, so the two docs would need to play very well to convince the town not to lynch them. They'd also need to forego any other protects.

edit: note also that the town doesn't know whether the mafia blocker has died; and that two-doc setups are very rare, so they'll be even less believable.

[Fiasco]

Prior to that, we'd need that list of standard setups, so this is a good place to start that discussion.

Have you decided on any yet? Mountainous seems like a no-brainer. Maybe dethy^2 too. (Maybe it's too vulnerable to newbie mod mistakes? Probably not.) Maybe Basic Twelve Player.

[Fiasco]

Taking away docs seems drastic. Maybe there are other ways to make mass claims unprofitable.

I think multiple evil groups are fun, but the volatility due to cross-kills is a valid concern. Partial cross-kill immunity for the scum groups may solve the problem (if compensated by other weaknesses).

Since in a separate open games queue there's no reason to use games of any particular size, they may be easier to balance. BTP is 3 mafia vs cop, doc, and 7 townies; removing the doc may be a good idea, but should probably be compensated by adding townies and making it a 13/14-player game. (Or if BTP is unbalanced in favor of the town, remove a townie there.)

I'd like to see the following alternative newbie setups tried as an open:

* 2 mafia vs cop and townies
* goon and roleblocker vs cop, doc, and townies

[Fiasco]

Here's a system. Does anyone know how to balance the number of townies?

Vanilla Mafia I: 1 mafia vs 6 townies
Vanilla Mafia II: 2 mafia vs 10 townies
Vanilla Mafia III: 3 mafia vs 14 townies
Vanilla Mafia IV: 4 mafia vs 19 townies
Vanilla Mafia V: 5 mafia vs 24 townies
Vanilla Mafia VI: 6 mafia vs 30 townies

Strawberry Mafia I: 1 mafia vs cop and 3 townies
Strawberry Mafia II: 2 mafia vs cop and 6 townies
Strawberry Mafia III: 3 mafia vs cop and 9 townies
Strawberry Mafia IV: 4 mafia vs cop and 12 townies
Strawberry Mafia V: 5 mafia vs cop and 16 townies
Strawberry Mafia VI: 6 mafia vs cop and 20 townies

Chocolate Mafia I: 1 mafia vs cop, doc, and 1 townie
Chocolate Mafia II: 2 mafia vs cop, doc, and 3 townies
Chocolate Mafia III: 3 mafia vs cop, doc, and 6 townies
Chocolate Mafia IV: 4 mafia vs cop, doc, and 9 townies
Chocolate Mafia V: 5 mafia vs cop, doc, and 12 townies
Chocolate Mafia VI: 6 mafia vs cop, doc, and 15 townies

Strawberry I and Chocolate I may not make sense anyway.

[Fiasco]

That sounds like another usable standard newbie variant; it's a lot like Pie's version, which has a cop, doc, and blocker.

Here's another idea:

Polar Animals Mafia

MAFIA:
1 walrus (decides each night whether the vig gets a night action)
1 penguin (decides each night whether the doc gets a night action)
1 polar bear (decides each night whether the cop gets a night action)

SERIAL KILLER:
1 seal (decides each night whether the walrus, penguin, and polar bear get their blocking actions)

TOWN:
1 vig
1 doc
1 cop
5 townies

Maybe this needs some tweaks for balance, like giving the town a mason pair or letting the SK decide whether the mafia gets a nightkill. I'm not sure what would happen if you gave the town a role that could block the seal, or a standard roleblocker.

[Fiasco]

The pro-town variant is called "Tooth Fairy" for some reason: http://www.princeton.edu/~mafia/vr8.htm

I agree the polar bear doesn't really have a meaningful choice, unless maybe the SK has some sort of NK immunity (probably a good idea anyway). Or unless the mafia wants the town to believe the SK used his blocking ability (or that the cop lied about not being blocked).

I agree claims may be a problem, especially if there are masons... on the other hand, mass claims are unsafe as long as the penguin lives (or the doctor is dead).