Open Setups

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Well, in this case, an unlynchable would just be a mod-confirmed innocent with a drawback(ie. you have to sacrifice a lynch). As the masons aren't mod-confirmed, but merely very confirmed, I'd personally go for the unlynchable, as it seems fairer. This would also allow for fake claims and the like(it'd just be very risky).

[Fiasco]

Heh, I'd forgotten about the "mod-confirmed innocent as target" point again. Though I'm not actually sure the mafia would target such a role early on -- any doctors will protect it. But then half the time there's still the SK who I've made doc-immune...

Unlynchable doesn't really seem to fit in the mason category. Both mod-confirmable-at-will and unlynchable seem like unusual roles; I'd prefer to use only reasonably common roles.

It's not that important for the role to be half as strong as a two-mason group; the other tables are slightly unbalanced as well. Two docs/blockers/vigs aren't three times as powerful as one doc/blocker/vig. (Hmm... maybe double doc protects and double blocker blocks should work against the SK. And maybe the SK should be "single kill per night immune" where he used to be "single kill per game immune". Though that's pretty powerful.)

Trojan Horse, the four scum group does seem strong. It's probably a good idea to take away their godfather, but it may not be enough.

[Fiasco]

C9++, Current Best Shot Edition

12 players. Night start. No unusual mechanics. (But setup can be adapted to changes in any of this.) Roles are selected as follows:

First, generate 7 letters from the following distribution:

50% T
15% C
10% D
10% V
10% M
5% B

Then turn the letters into roles using the following tables. Probabilities are for 0 letters, 1 letter, etc.

C = sane cop + 3 millers (millerhood is distributed randomly among non-cop, non-scum, non-child)
CC = sane cop
CCC = sane cop + insane cop
CCCC = sane cop + sane cop
CCCCC = sane cop + sane cop + insane cop
CCCCCC = sane cop + sane cop + sane cop

(32%, 40%, 21%, 6%, 1%, .1%, .007%)

D = doc
DD = doc + backup doc
DDD = doc + doc
DDDD = doc + doc + backup doc
DDDDD = doc + doc + doc

(48%, 37%, 12%, 2%, .3%, .02%)

V = vig
VV = vig + one-shot vig
VVV = vig + vig
VVVV = vig + vig + one-shot vig
VVVVV = vig + vig + vig

(48%, 37%, 12%, 2%, .3%, .02%)

M = innocent child
MM = 2 masons
MMM = 2 masons + innocent child
MMMM = 3 masons
MMMMM = 2 masons + 2 masons

(48%, 37%, 12%, 2%, .3%, .02%)

B = blocker
BB = blocker + backup blocker
BBB = blocker + blocker
BBBB = blocker + blocker + backup blocker

(70%, 26%, 4%, .4%, .02%)

TTTTTTT = mafia goon + mafia godfather
TTTTTT = mafia goon + mafia godfather + serial killer (DI, BI)
TTTTT = mafia goon + mafia goon + mafia godfather
TTTT = mafia goon + mafia goon + mafia godfather + serial killer (DI, BI, KI)
TTT = mafia goon + mafia blocker + mafia godfather
TT = mafia goon + mafia blocker + mafia godfather + serial killer (DI, BI, CI, KI)
T = mafia spy + mafia blocker + mafia godfather
0 = mafia spy + mafia blocker + mafia godfather + serial killer (DI, BI, CI, KI, SI, RB)

(.8%, 5%, 16%, 27%, 27%, 16%, 5%, .8%; exactly 50% of all games have a serial killer)

Mafia GF appears to cops as a townie. Mafia Spy learns one targeted player's role type each night (T/C/D/V/M/B). (The SK can tell the mod how he wants to appear to the Spy; if the Spy investigates the SK, the SK is notified.)

DI = each kill bypasses single doc protect (but not more)
BI = bypasses single roleblock attempt each night (but not more)
KI = survives one kill attempt each night (but not more)
CI = appears to cops as a townie
SI = appears to mafia spy as desired
RB = has a roleblock ability usable once

No role can target itself.

All kills are indistinguishable.

The mafia and SK know their own abilities. Mafia and SK abilities, cop sanity, and millerhood are not revealed on death.

Last team standing wins. If everyone dies, SK wins or mafia and town draw.

Comments:
* The mafia spy and roleblocking SK are new; I'm not too sure about them. Note that the SK in the 0 case has a large information advantage; the mafia will think there probably is no SK, as the probabilities are .8% and 5% respectively.
* Renaming all possible roles = instant themed mini
* I think the innocent child role isn't

that

weak, and presents interesting tradeoffs. The mafia may target someone else because of possible doc protects or because they want to hit the SK. The SK may target someone else because they want the mafia to do the work of eliminating the innocent child. In any case, nightkilling an innocent child costs the scum at least one nightkill.

edited to include some more random setups:

TTTCMMB
4 townies
1 townie-miller
1 sane cop
2 masons (1 miller)
1 blocker-miller
1 mafia gf
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon

TTTTVVM
5 townies
1 vig
1 one-shot vig
1 innocent child
1 mafia gf
2 mafia goons
1 sk (di, bi, ki)

TTTCCVM
6 townies
1 sane cop
1 vig
1 innocent child
1 mafia gf
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon

TCDMMMB
1 townie
2 townie-millers
1 sane cop
1 doctor
1 innocent child
2 masons
1 blocker-miller
1 mafia gf
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia spy

TTTCMMM
4 townies
1 townie-miller
1 sane cop
1 innocent child
2 mason-millers
1 mafia gf
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon

TTTTDVV
5 townies
1 doc
1 vig
1 one-shot vig
1 mafia gf
2 mafia goons
1 sk (di, bi, ki)

TTTCCDV
6 townies
1 sane cop
1 doc
1 vig
1 mafia gf
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon

[Twomz]

LOL, I was trying to wrap my brain around how you'd get 1 mason... Mod confirmed innocence is alright normally... but I wouldn't put it in a mini.

[Fiasco]

Why not? Because it doesn't leave enough doubtfuls? I don't think that's such a problem, but maybe there's a different reason.

[Yosarian2]

Two docs can be a real balance issue, if they can protect each other. For example, a 2 doc+2 scum endgame is a draw, which means that if there are two outed docs, and a situation where they've played well enough so that they won't be lynched, the scum would be in a position where they can not possibly win once they're down to 2 scum members, which could happen on day 1.

[Fiasco]

That's a good point that I hadn't considered; however,

1. in 2-doc games, the mafia almost always has a blocker, unless he's dead
2. if the SK is alive, he can bypass the docs
3. as it stands now, some synergy between docs is actually a good thing, because it makes the tables less unbalanced.

Note that 2 vigs vs 2 known mafia and 2 blockers vs 2 known mafia are also draws (except for mafia blockers).

[Yosarian2]

Well, that's true as well, but two docs protecting each other can be a problem much earlier then two vigs or two roleblockers.

You're right, there are ways for the scum to get around it; still, it might be better if instead of saying "docs can not protect themselves", just say "any attempt to protect a docter will fail".

[Fiasco]

Yeah, that works as a solution. But I'm not sure I don't want to keep the problem. A doc pair is only a serious extra advantage if 1) there's no SK, and 2) the mafia blocker dies early. In that situation doc would be a very attractive fake claim for scum to make, so the two docs would need to play very well to convince the town not to lynch them. They'd also need to forego any other protects.

edit: note also that the town doesn't know whether the mafia blocker has died; and that two-doc setups are very rare, so they'll be even less believable.

[GreenLiquid]

Maybe an idea for a hidden-lynch variant:

After 12 days since day began, it becomes twilight and there is a hidden-ballot lynch. Then, at morning, the night-kills and lynch results are in, but the night kills and lynch are not distinquishable.

[mith]

I split the Mish Mash discussion:

Mish Mash Mafia Mutations

[Thok]

I thinking about running a 1001 game when my turn on the mini regular list hits

2 scum, 4 townies and either a doc or a cop.

I'm trying to decide about whether I should utilize any of the following tweaks

a. Instead of choosing between a doc or a cop, have a single cop/doc who can do either power but can only do one thing a night. (Essentially the same, but affects counterclaim strategy).

b. Requiring scum to kill each night. (Helps town a little, as it confirms a doctor if there isn't a nightkill).

Both tweaks would be part of the open setup.

Any general thoughts?

My current regular game will be this, but with rule b in place.

[B Rob]

I want to run this for my first mod game:
(2 Mafia, 2 Werewolves, 6 of: [1 Cop, 1 Doctor, 1 Vigilante, 1 Roleblocker, 1 Serial Killer, 3 Townies])

It's a setup played at MeMeMeet. What do people think? Is it interesting, balanced, etc. Suggestions are welcome, too.

[Kelly Chen]

I kind of think that the game could be over so fast that you'd wish you'd used the opportunity to mod something that would last a little longer.

I'd enjoy seeing it tried, though.

[Fiasco]

Prior to that, we'd need that list of standard setups, so this is a good place to start that discussion.

Have you decided on any yet? Mountainous seems like a no-brainer. Maybe dethy^2 too. (Maybe it's too vulnerable to newbie mod mistakes? Probably not.) Maybe Basic Twelve Player.

[mith]

Probably to start with we will have permanent

Vanilla

* signups, along with two-three other signups (at a time) chosen through some TBD discussion and nomination process. We'll see how that goes for a bit.

It's possible that after some time it may be clear that another setup, BTP for example, should join or replace Vanilla as "above" the nomination process.

I'll start an official thread for this when I've worked out the details, but any discussion here would be useful to get people thinking about what games they would like to see played more often.

*I am going to insist on using Vanilla as the official name, as it is much more descriptive than Mountainous, and less likely to confuse n00bs. And Mountainous is a silly name.

[SpeedyKQ]

All townies and one cop is also pretty good. This is the original default setup as I first learned it.

I think the most important thing in open setups is to avoid doctor roles. Most open setups can be broken with a mass claim, where doc claims townie and protects power roles.

I also strongly prefer setups with only one evil group, since multiple evil groups too easily allow undeserving towns to win by default.

[Fiasco]

Taking away docs seems drastic. Maybe there are other ways to make mass claims unprofitable.

I think multiple evil groups are fun, but the volatility due to cross-kills is a valid concern. Partial cross-kill immunity for the scum groups may solve the problem (if compensated by other weaknesses).

Since in a separate open games queue there's no reason to use games of any particular size, they may be easier to balance. BTP is 3 mafia vs cop, doc, and 7 townies; removing the doc may be a good idea, but should probably be compensated by adding townies and making it a 13/14-player game. (Or if BTP is unbalanced in favor of the town, remove a townie there.)

I'd like to see the following alternative newbie setups tried as an open:

* 2 mafia vs cop and townies
* goon and roleblocker vs cop, doc, and townies

[Fiasco]

Here's a system. Does anyone know how to balance the number of townies?

Vanilla Mafia I: 1 mafia vs 6 townies
Vanilla Mafia II: 2 mafia vs 10 townies
Vanilla Mafia III: 3 mafia vs 14 townies
Vanilla Mafia IV: 4 mafia vs 19 townies
Vanilla Mafia V: 5 mafia vs 24 townies
Vanilla Mafia VI: 6 mafia vs 30 townies

Strawberry Mafia I: 1 mafia vs cop and 3 townies
Strawberry Mafia II: 2 mafia vs cop and 6 townies
Strawberry Mafia III: 3 mafia vs cop and 9 townies
Strawberry Mafia IV: 4 mafia vs cop and 12 townies
Strawberry Mafia V: 5 mafia vs cop and 16 townies
Strawberry Mafia VI: 6 mafia vs cop and 20 townies

Chocolate Mafia I: 1 mafia vs cop, doc, and 1 townie
Chocolate Mafia II: 2 mafia vs cop, doc, and 3 townies
Chocolate Mafia III: 3 mafia vs cop, doc, and 6 townies
Chocolate Mafia IV: 4 mafia vs cop, doc, and 9 townies
Chocolate Mafia V: 5 mafia vs cop, doc, and 12 townies
Chocolate Mafia VI: 6 mafia vs cop, doc, and 15 townies

Strawberry I and Chocolate I may not make sense anyway.

[Kelly Chen]

Leaving out the doc is fun, as it means the cop can't claim his investigation every day. I don't see why leaving the doc out is crucial, though.

I think a crucial thing is to ensure that any special pro-town roles have an ability that is more useful to the town than the role's ability to be confirmed innocent just by claiming. I made this mistake in my first open setup: I don't think there were any useful doc protections, but a doc claim itself was very useful.

I'm not optimistic about running a bunch of 2:10 vanilla games. They seem to be pretty long games, maybe not a great choice for a newbie mod. I'd definitely prefer 3:9 with a cop. Or maybe make it semi-open with a couple of power roles drawn from a hat.... maybe { cop, doc, vig, townie }.

In chat once I ran a closed 7p setup with 2 mafia (including an RB), 2 sane cops, and 3 townies. (Scum won when one cop voted the other at lylo. Both cops investigated scum N1, but one was blocked, and neither was sure of sanity.) I wonder if it would be balanced as an open setup. It's interesting because scum could usefully claim cop on D1...

[Fiasco]

That sounds like another usable standard newbie variant; it's a lot like Pie's version, which has a cop, doc, and blocker.

Here's another idea:

Polar Animals Mafia

MAFIA:
1 walrus (decides each night whether the vig gets a night action)
1 penguin (decides each night whether the doc gets a night action)
1 polar bear (decides each night whether the cop gets a night action)

SERIAL KILLER:
1 seal (decides each night whether the walrus, penguin, and polar bear get their blocking actions)

TOWN:
1 vig
1 doc
1 cop
5 townies

Maybe this needs some tweaks for balance, like giving the town a mason pair or letting the SK decide whether the mafia gets a nightkill. I'm not sure what would happen if you gave the town a role that could block the seal, or a standard roleblocker.

[Kelly Chen]

Does the polar bear have any incentive at all to allow a cop investigation? The mafia would have to guess that the cop would investigate the SK and not mafia. But if the mafia know so clearly who the SK is, they should just kill him.

I've heard of a role which can prevent the vig from operating, but I didn't think it was a scum role.

If this is an open setup, you can't give the town a mason pair. The scum won't have anything to claim.

[Fiasco]

The pro-town variant is called "Tooth Fairy" for some reason: http://www.princeton.edu/~mafia/vr8.htm

I agree the polar bear doesn't really have a meaningful choice, unless maybe the SK has some sort of NK immunity (probably a good idea anyway). Or unless the mafia wants the town to believe the SK used his blocking ability (or that the cop lied about not being blocked).

I agree claims may be a problem, especially if there are masons... on the other hand, mass claims are unsafe as long as the penguin lives (or the doctor is dead).

[Kelly Chen]

I agree the polar bear doesn't really have a meaningful choice, unless maybe the SK has some sort of NK immunity (probably a good idea anyway). Or unless the mafia wants the town to believe the SK used his blocking ability (or that the cop lied about not being blocked).

It's an interesting question, when the SK would want to use his ability. He'd have to think he's pretty clear.

I agree claims may be a problem, especially if there are masons... on the other hand, mass claims are unsafe as long as the penguin lives (or the doctor is dead).

Even if you don't mass claim in one shot, you have the same problem. As long as the five roles (cop doc vig masons) are accounted for prior to lylo, and assuming scum don't make/provoke counterclaims of the three power roles here, anyone claiming townie has a 4/7 chance of being scum. That should be enough for the town to win. They don't even need the night abilities with accuracy like that.

[Max]

Theocracy Generation Mafia:
Each night is the equivalent of 100 years so we go through a single generation.

4 mafia
12 townies (1 of whom, King & Queen Maker)

At the beginning there are:

8 Princes
8 Princesses

And they get married to one of the opposite sex each night(for this we presume they are all heterosexual)
These will be the first generation, at dawn a couple gets selected as King and Queen.
They choose a person to get executed (removed from game forever)
And all generations give birth to up to 2 children (1 for each member of the couple remaining) (We presume the widow or widower got remarried and only had a single child)
Mafia make a kill
This is the second generation, this generation pick a partner of the opposite sex (However this time it may not be someone of relation i.e. sister/brother)
Go through cycle again
They pick partners again (can't marry anyone related (brother sister or cousins)
AFTER THAT GENERATION
They pick partners again but they can't marry anyone who is brother sister or cousin.
Once people can no longer get married genetic disease takes over and everyone loses.