Mini 362 - Open Role Bastard Mafia (Game Over)

[Nai]

I'm here.

*spins the needle* Right hand red. Damnit. Bad start.

[Nai]

Sorry to have to say this so soon in the game, but I might have sporadic internet for a while. I have to send my computer in for repairs (at least a week, methinks), and I'll have to use another computer. Shouldn't interfere with the game, but just in case.

Also,

Vote: Kirbyphreak

for double posting. SCUM!

[Nai]

He might be on vacation.

Hmm.

[Nai]

Well, claims will help. I don't understand what Twomz means by saying that counterclaims aren't going to help. Just because we know WHAT roles are in this game doesn't mean that a counterclaim does nothing. You treat a counterclaim in this game like a counterclaim in any other game: Lynch the first claimer then, if they're not scum, lynch the other one.

[Nai]

No lynch, in this set-up, is a bad idea. If they have the vig... Well, we need to find a good lynch. We have a chance of getting mafia, so no-lynch is never a good idea like this.

[Nai]

Unvote, Vote: Help I'm A Bug

for the vote with no reason. Otherwise known as OMGUS vote in most cases. Apparently, saying that counterclaiming is useful is scummy.

I also don't think that speculation on role workings is scummy. As it's been said before, more information can only help the town. True, revealing who is who is decidedly not helpful. But speculation does help the town in every instance of the word.

[Nai]

OH yes, there's a LOT of advocating for a mass claim in that post. I*t's all saying "Wow, let's mass claim and then work off of counterclaims!"

Now, seriously, read the post. It was actually disagreeing with Twomz when he said counterclaims wouldn't be useful in this game. I was saying that counterclaims are just as useful in a game where we know the roles as in a game where we don't. See the newbie games with the C9 setup, where docs and cops can claim and be counterclaimed. It helps.

Also, I think we should allow Fritz to post and/or be replaced before we lynch him. Lynching on a lack of information is a bad idea.

[Nai]

Well, HIAB, you didn't put that explanation WITH your vote. You put it many posts later, after you were *snicker* bugged about it. And, after I explained my post, you're still voting for me, when no one else is because THEY all saw, from the get-go, what I was going for.

On another point, counterclaims are definately going to be a part of this game, especially with bastardized roles, if the roles start acting like other roles.

[Nai]

So I have a random vote, a vote for a reason that has not held up, and another seemingly random vote on me. I'm loving it.

HIAB, even if that did happen (which I find unlikely), I still think that counterclaims will be useful. For instance, what if we have two roles that are supposedly bastardized? One says that he's (for example) a townie bastardized that got doc abilities (we have no idea what bastardization does anyways, so for sake of example). That would imply that bastardization doesn't have any relevancy to role. Another guy comes up and says HE was bastardized, used to be the insane cop, and is now sane. That implies that bastardization messes with your role abilities. I think that would be a very useful counterclaim for the town, counterclaiming the effects of bastardization.

[Nai]

I meant something like the doc acting like the cop, not just some random role randomly getting an ability. I think that bastardization would do something to the actual abilities of your own role. The only time I think you'd get any abilities when you had none to begin with was, say, a townie becoming a vig, because they are, in my mind, just about polar opposites.

[Nai]

Hmm. Good point on the Miller bit. I was going to say that Vig could be the opposite of vanilla since a vanilla only tries to live, while a Vig tries to kill. Maybe a vanilla -> SK change?

[Nai]

Wait, that's scummy, but you voting for me for "advocating for mass claim" when the quoted post had absolutely nothing of the sort in it wasn't scummy?

To quote what BabyJesus might say: Why isn't HIAB dead yet?

[Nai]

I notice that TheMan is agreeing with HIAB, who is also a person that made something up completely with no basis to form a vote.

Wait... Would you look at that... Evidence of scumbuddies!

Funnily enough, I can make a GOOD parody of HIAB's post and be completely facetious at the same time.

[Nai]

Already did. I find most of your posts this game to be non sequitors. Care to explain?

[Nai]

Mod

: Kirbyphreak had unvoted me in post 113.

Twomz, why would you vote for me, like Fritzler? He made even less of a contribution with that post than HIAB did, as his vote came with NO reasoning, just like his vote on Zindaris. Following a wagon like that is irresponsible. It's like voting for me because of HIAB's reasoning, which is completely erroneus.

[Nai]

I've played with Fritz, and I haven't noticed this. I also don't see why following the vote of scum, as you said, can be a good play. Scum NEVER have the best interest of the Town on their mind. So following their votes is not a good idea. I especially dislike a person that votes without reason. Is smacks of scum to me, mostly because a townie could give a good reason, whereas scum have to make up the reasons most of the time.

[Nai]

What, repeated explanations, disillusionment, and truth?

[Nai]

While I agree that players shouldn't follow the votes of other players unless the latter are confirmed townies, I must point out that Twomz is NOT rated the most prolific player, as far as my eyes can see. He also seems to be taking an interest in the game, mostly by voting you.

I'm a bit dissapointed that interest in HIAB waned so quickly, even with his actions this game.

[Nai]

Ah. I misread the post.

[Nai]

I'm waiting on HIAB, really, because I think he's probably scum.

[Nai]

I'm happy with my vote on HIAB. He voted for me with absolutely no logic, continued to defend the lack of logic, and even after he's been put down, as far as I recall, is still voting for me.

[Nai]

Unvote

. No, no lynch is bad.

[Nai]

Actually, I'm unvoting because the person I was voting for is about to be replaced.

[Nai]

I'm unvoting for the time being. If needed, I'll re-vote. However, with the deadline looming, there was no reason to continue voting HIAB/replacement, as he wasn't scummy enough to warrent a lynch yet. Just enough to have a vote from me for being an idiot.

[Nai]

I said he wasn't scummy enough to warrent a lynch, yet scummy enough to warrent a vote. Meaning I wanted a reason why he was being such an idiot about voting for me for no reason at all, however I didn't think, at that point, that he was truly scum.

[Nai]

Because, if needed, I can re-vote for him. I'm not feeling the bandwagon on theman at all, so there's no problem dropping my vote for the time being.

[Nai]

From what I'm seeing, there's 4 people voting for TheMan since last vote count, and none of those people have unvoted, to my knowledge.

So let me go over this again: I was voting for HIAB for largely being an idiot, which he's done before in another game that I was in. I left the vote on because I wanted an explanation. He's being replaced, so I unvoted. It's not as if I can't put the vote back on. And I don't want to have fingers pointed at me if people jump ship from TheMan bandwagon at deadline and HIAB/replacement gets killed because my vote's still there. Capiche?

[Nai]

Oh, I want an explanation. But since, at the time, we still had a deadine, I wasn't going to risk a lynch that I didn't feel was completely justified yet.

[Nai]

I've noticed that townies tend to be considered scum if they don't say who they think is scum when attacked, and I find that townies tend to panic around then. Scum tends to be rather calm and coherant around this time, as they're TRYING not to make a mistake.

[Nai]

I'd ask how you could be any more vague, but I know it's possible, so I'll ask you, Thesp, to say how my posting has been way off.

Also, I'll note that if you say that my posting is not the norm for me, it's fact that my tactics tend to change every game. As such, my gameplay is usually different, considerably so.

[Nai]

... You've got to be kidding me. You're saying that role speculation in a game where all roles are known is a bad thing? A game where we have an in game event that no one understands, and speculation is

bad

, right?

Next, you are concerned about my attacking HIAB when

he voted for me while quoting a post, gave no reasoning, proceeded to give completely unfactual information when pressured, and then, when he admitted his error, kept his vote on me

, and I'm supposed to NOT vote him? Wow.

Vote: Thesp

. Somehow, I doubt you are scum with this horrendous craplogic, but it warrents a vote.

[Nai]

Oh, I'd like to get rid of stupid town, which is likely to try to get rid of GOOD town, as much as I'd like to get rid of scum. It'll help the town just as much to stop someone from making stupid accusations and starting bandwagons on town as it will to get rid of scum.

The only reason, at this point, that I DO NOT think you are scum is that I don't think any scum would play this badly.

[Nai]

My distraction from a bandwagon I don't agree with? Correct! Just like I didn't jump on TheMan when his bandwagon came on. Wouldn't hesitate to jump on a bandwagon on you, Thesp, at this point.

[Nai]

I think a stupid townie lynch is good, because stupid townies tend to be destructive towards the town. Their actions make it dangerous for any townie to be safe with, for instance, votes and starting bandwagons that really have no backing at all in facts. Starting a bandwagon without reason and getting people to follow you into the bandwagon BEFORE giving good reasons is VERY bad for the town. It only helps the Scum.

So the question is: Help the scum by following the stupid townie (and, chances are, you'll follow again), or help the scum ONCE by killing the stupid townie with a chance of that townie actually being scum.

[Nai]

Does that tell you nothing? That you get lynched for it? It shows that what you are doing looks scummy and you aren't helping anyone.

Chamber, the fact that I ignore him doesn't matter. If he's particularly charismatic, and if he can get people to vote along with him, he's dangerous for the town. Especially if he, like you, doesn't post good reasons for his votes, just vague words that mean nothing in the end. My 1 vote NOT going along with him (because I ignore him) doesn't mean as much as the six votes following him because they don't.

[Nai]

The fact that you said "several games" leads me to believe this has happened several times. That means MANY people think it's a scum tell. And if many people think it's as cum tell, it's probably something that scum do quite often.

"The town always wants more information, the scum want to give the town as little information as possible."

Why would you hide your reasonings? What would motivate you to do that? What's the point of hiding your reasons for voting? There's no reason for it. Everyone benefits if you give your reasons, no one does if you just vote without reason.

[Nai]

First of all, I'm not defending M4yhem at all. I'm not defending HIM, I'm accusing his attacker. There's a big difference. I don't know about M4yhem's alignment, I have no suspicions about him, but I DO know that Thesp's attack has craplogic written all over it.

Also, Chamber, saying "I've played like this countless times, was lynched for it, and was townie" is just about the scummiest thing I can see anyone doing. It gives a GOOD excuse for scum to play like scum and assume they won't get nailed for it.

[Nai]

Attacking the accuser has nothign to do with defending the accused. I could feel that M4yhem is scum (I don't at this juncture) but attack the accuser if I think the accuser is likewise scum. And I seriously think that Thesp is scum at this point. He's not playing like town.

Chamber, there isn't one set way. But you're still playing like scum, and that's the big bit. You're playing scum tells.

[Nai]

I wasn't talking about him lurking. I was talking about voting with no reasons given.

[Nai]

What do I think is Scummy/Townie behavior?

Voting without giving any accusations

: Scum.

Continuing not to give accusations after they are requested

: Scum

Defending self, but STILL not giving accusations

: Scum

Saying someone is scum for asking for information

: Scum

Letting the town know what you are thinking, and sharing information with the town

: Townie.

[Nai]

It really is, in my experience.

[Nai]

Wow. So Chamber thinks people are scum for trying to play intelligently. Fantastic.

[Nai]

Do note: First on the list of roles is "insane cop". There is no other cop.

[Nai]

True.

[Nai]

Okay, that was meant to be longer. True, there is another cop. However, that's "are they bastardized or not", which I don't count as a true cop.

It's a bit depressing that our cop has been outted so soon.

[Nai]

Thesp, 5 hours had passed and there was no counterclaim, and several people had posted since then. I think it's safe to assume that he's the real cop. Especially since I dont think scum would try THAT gambit if they're already under the gun.

[Nai]

Thesp, I highly doubted that Cop would end up being scum. It just wouldn't make any sense. There's no point in a Scum Cop, y'know? It's not a role cop, so there's no point in there. However, this was before today happened, and I just got back.

I'm ready to lynch M4yhem. He sounded town, acted town, and now he's falling under the 'lynch all liars' rule, which I agree to. I'm not sure if he's already dead, but I'll hammer him if needed.

Unvote, Vote: M4yhem.

[Nai]

Twomz, that's a good point, I didn't remember that. I still thought that a Cop would still end up town, regardless, though.

[Nai]

Well, the problem with saying that the roles are definate random is that it means that the mafia could, say, get the Vig, giving them two kills a night. Among other things.

[Nai]

I was under the impression it was called "Bastard" mafia because of the "Bastardize" mechanic. I see your point, but I still think that there's a high chance that Cop/Doc/Vig were exempt from the random roles.

[Nai]

I don't like that Bogre is trying to say that we should guide the Genealogist's and Cleric's movements. They should do their own thing, if they are town, and avoid being outted until they have something worth saying.

[Nai]

I still don't like trying to guide roles. Townies should be able to follow their own instincts. A non-confirmed player trying to guide t e roles is very, very scummy, in my opinion.

[Nai]

Ah, that's interesting. I'm pretty sure our Vig is scum, and I"m also very sure that Thesp has been more 'taken out of the game for a day/night' than killed. As he's coming back into the game, I'm also sure it would be mean/broken for his role to be revealed.

What I'd like to know is two things: 1. Why did Chamber try to kill me, followed by Thesp, and 2. Exactly why did no one find Chamber at least kill Thesp to be scummy?

Vote: Chamber

[Nai]

Wow. I wish I could vote Chamber again for his latest comment. He thinks he's bastardized so he decides he has the power to remove people for a day, removing their valuable information just so he doesn't have to listen to them making semi-valid points against them. Amazing.

I'm not an inventor, I'll say that right now. I did not use any invention on myself. I was told I was dead night 1 (or whatever you want to call the night before day 2), and the PM I was given hinted that I might be brought back to life some time. Then, I was told on night 2 (or whatever the night was before this day) that I was alive again. That's pretty much all there is.

I think our best choice today is to lynch Chamber. We already have his role, but not his alignment. He decided to kill me, which I find insulting, but I see reasons behind it. HOWEVER, he ALSO killed Thesp, who gave us one scum and pretty much gave us the second as well. I CAN see Thesp being scum outing his buddies, but, since Chamber killed me and then claimed as much, he should ALSO have told us who he was going to kill night 2.

[Nai]

Because, first of all, it wouldn't be so surprising that you DID attack Thesp. Not so surprising, still as wrong. We could also have stopped you from doing so (not me involved in We, I was dead) and probably wouldn't be minus a good player today.

[Nai]

I'm unwilling to vote TheMan at this point in time. Chamber seems like a much better lynch, since he's a loose cannon that doesn't think the town can help him in his decisions.

[Nai]

Y'know, I didn' know that PJ was in this game.

On another note, I'm happy with my vote. I'd like to see, however, Kirbyphreak being pressured tomorrow. This is the, what, third time he'd be 'happy with a lynch' but still doesn't put a vote down.

[Nai]

It wa a joke, Fritz.

On another note, Kirby, Chamber is at 2 votes. You could easily vote him to show your intent, as opposed to just saying it. But, as usual, you're being non-commital.

[Nai]

Chamber, you are so dead tomorrow. I dont' think he even got a chance to claim.

[Nai]

Sorry, nothing from me. I think it might be nice to hear from the roleblocker right now.

[Nai]

EBWODP: On another note, there's another thing I find rather amusing: There was no kill from the mafia. This is in addition to a lack of vig.

[Nai]

I'm in full agreement with Thesp about this. I have no doubt that Chamber did NOT try to target himself. I also find it decidedly amusing that, on the same night that Chamber's kill didn't go through, neither did a mafia kill.

[Nai]

And I really don't believe you, Chamber.

I'm here. And just waiting on Fritzler and a few others.

[Nai]

If Chamber isn't scum, I'd STILL like to lynch Kirby, as, for the fourth time, he's stated he's okay with a lynch but refuses to put a vote on that lynch.

Anyone who hammered Chamber before he got a chance to speak would be lynched the next day, just like Chamber is going to be lynched today barring strange occurances.

Vote: Chamber

Time I got my vote on him. Here's hoping it's the end of this game.

[Nai]

Or, if you are being honest about being roleblocked, perhaps YOU didn't get a chance to use your kill last night.

[Nai]

But

I

do not know that. Besides, you're being lynched for killing TheMan yesterday without giving him any chance to respond to our questions, which is a decidedly scummy act.

[Nai]

I'd like to hear from the Roleblocker at this point. I think either the roleblocker hit Chamber and the doc got lucky, or Chamber is Scum Vig and got blocked or some such last night. If he doesn't end up being our last scum, Thesp is another person who would be a good lynch. Chamber has a good point, but Thesp has also gotten us two scum.

[Nai]

I'm not sure who we want to claim at this point. I'd rather JUST the RBer claim for the time being. I think we only have 4 people unclaimed. If we claim two of those away, the mafia has a 1/2 chance of hitting the doctor. We have a better chance if we just get the claim from the RBer. At this point, that's all we need right now.

[Nai]

I don't think I've ever seen a game where any sort of restrictor is forced to make a choice. But maybe that's just me. I've been against Kirbyphreak this entire game, and it's not changing.

Can we lynch Chamber already?

[Nai]

I"m fairly sure we're in twilight here.

[Nai]

Interesting. That would explain why people got RB'd. Awesome game!

[Nai]

Pariah, you said that the Geneologist started bastardized. Since he can't change anyone's bastardization when bastardized, that means that no one was changed, right?

I think that's something that could be fixed if you run this again.

[Nai]

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, run again, please.

[Nai]

Totally /in for that next ORB.