/in-vitational 12: Mafia in #YOLOville - All wrapped up!

[Faraday]

Day 3, Votecount 4

Cogito Ergo Sum (2) - Tammy, Llamarble

Benmage (3) - Shadoweh, OhGodMyLife, Nachomamma8

OhGodMyLife (2) - Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez

Not voting (4) :

Benmage, Deasvail, Empire, Tierce

• With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
  
• Deadline is on 7th of April at 3:59am GMT
  
• Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2013-04-06 23:59:59)
  
• Benmage is V/la

[Tammy]

One of the issues with OGML is that his games are mostly pretty old. I'd say the most relevant ones are from Micro 53 to American Revolution as Town, and Playground Mafia as scum.

Town games: Micro 53 (this was the game I had as a base for "OGML is far better than this", which I remembered from months ago because I had discussed it with Empire), Author Mafia, American Revolution Mafia, Open 411, Mini 1141, American Gods Mafia

(don't hurt me, Faraday)

Scum games: Playground Mafia

Hmm...American Revolution. I was trying to figure out why I felt like I had some experience with OGML. I replaced into American Revolution after OGML died, but from what I read it was easy to get a mislynch on him and he suspected my whole team at some point I think. So, decent gut but looks rather scummy while doing it. Reserving judgment to see how he interacts and responds today. Though I had a pretty good scum read on N.

[Tammy]

Just turbobusser in general, 'marble. I don't think Nacho spending effort to save his buddy N makes notably more sense than more straightforward conclusions (i.e. if a bunch of townies showed up to swing the wagon to p_a late, then maybe that swing was driven by townies).

So then is he turbobussing benmage now?

[Tammy]

So Nacho / CES / maybeN until further notice.

I like this because I don't trust Nacho.

[Tammy]

Oh yeah, that's what I meant. He could have left a message with the mod to pass along, so he wouldn't get stuck in that position.
Shadoweh, do you mean the image of him throwing down his microphone? He was basically saying, "I'm done here"!
But yeah, the hammer was odd.

I don't think I've heard of any mods letting you send messages to replacements. You said 'reason why he tracked Empire', he wasn't a tracker dear.

I meant blocked...I said that earlier.

[Shadoweh]

At least Llamarble outlined simply with votecounts why I've been freaking out over all my town reads. I just got home and lost interwebs last night so I haven't done much more reading. (I have no intention in answering the sane stupid why Benmage question, and OGML answered it better that I could have anyways.) I admit that the playerlist doesn't leave much room for narrowing down, but I truly disbelieve Nacho being scum in any form this game.

Cut :p obviously

[Tammy]

Deasvail - You've been partners before with Nacho. What do you think of his being termed a turbobusser? Is that your experience with him?

[DeasVail]

Deasvail - You've been partners before with Nacho. What do you think of his being termed a turbobusser? Is that your experience with him?

He did bus Rach in La-La-Land, but I don't know if he's a 'turbo' busser.

[Llamarble]

The fact that someone likes to bus doesn't mean they aren't a candidate for the scum pushing the wagon onto town instead of their buddy.
In that situation, if N was scum, usually a partner tries to push the wagon onto the other guy, and Nacho looks like the best candidate for that role given the towniness of the other options

[Nachomamma8]

This looks pretty scumbuddies to me.
In fact, I should probably just be voting Nacho.

I feel good about my ability to read N, and he was probably one of the weakest players on the playerlist Day 1. Of course I'm going to defend the shit out of him.

But, why wouldn't he as scum pop in to say that either? It's expected of him, it's easy enough to say, why not say it? What about it is distinguishing him as scum?

He's used to lurking and being called town, especially with this playerlist. Why would he know anything about a meta (as in, his lurking town meta) that he doesn't give a shit about?

[OhGodMyLife]

What kind of circumstances is it then, you think, that motivates scum to defend their partners?

This question is fluffy garbage designed to take the focus away from anything of actual importance, and its really hilarious that after repeatedly asking for a case on ben this is all you want to respond to out of it.

Zach same goes to you, you wanted a case and now you've straight up ignored it. Explain to me how CTD's drive to get N lynched makes any goddamn sense with N scum.

Llamarble what changed between yesterday/earlier today when you were willing to lynch ben and right now when you're back to handwaving him away with stupid bullshit? Additionally what changed from earlier today when you said N / myself were too cheeky to be scum and now to make me your convenient third scum member of this magical scumteam you just pulled out of your ass?

Everyone who has ben as town because of *meta* please please please actually read his posts in this game (and CTD's, and CES') and try to remember that this guy obviously knows his own meta.

[Llamarble]

The scumteam is pretty effed, really.
We have 5 lynches and 6 lynch candidates. If you count me then 7, but I don't lose duels as town when anyone sensible is alive so really 6.
If scumteam thinks they can lynch me I shall laugh as they suffer and die in impotence.
I don't think there are enough mislynches for scum to have a path to victory.
OGML, if Benmage is scum and you aren't, we have lynches enough to account for that, and even some time to rethink / get it right before then.
Note my voting CES right now as opposed to you.
Unless we lose faith in TET or we got an unlucky role result on Zach or Shadoweh is simply playing well and we fail to figure this out for the whole game, we're pretty much good to go.

OGML, we don't know whether CTD was aware of who his buddies were. I didn't see any rules about that in normals when I wikied.
I don't think very much is magical about my scumteam; everybody else is probably town and the scumteam works as scum.
Benmage or DV could steal your spot, but that's why I'm voting CES. His spot is pretty safe.
And since you agree with that one you may as well help me get it done.

DV is pretty funny; he thinks everybody looks town except Nacho on whom he has mentioned no read.

[DeasVail]

DV is pretty funny; he thinks everybody looks town except Nacho on whom he has mentioned no read.

Nacho might actually look town too. I just haven't looked at him properly yet.

But yeah...

[Shadoweh]

I assure you I am playing terribly.

[Benmage]

Vote CES

I'm curious to see this flip.

Plus for some idiotic reason... We like keeping terrible players around?!?!?!?1 (OGML) Lynch him puhleassse.

I was also thinking Nacho for scum... but both scum voting me seems wrong. OGML could easily be one of those bad players that got a town role... still don't mind lynching there.

Or again, Nacho for scum.

CES... cause well it has support... and I'm just damn curious.

***Also I won't be back from SA until Monday April 1st Huzzah! (so expect 0 content...nothing new here tho )

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

This question is fluffy garbage designed to take the focus away from anything of actual importance, and its really hilarious that after repeatedly asking for a case on ben this is all you want to respond to out of it.

Your post consists of 1 minor point that's valid but not that interesting, random defense of yourself out of nowhere, ben being ben, accusations of people defending people. None of those posts you quoted make a lick of sense as a buddy defending a buddy - zero incentive. So yeah, I'm going to focus on the bit that's alignment-relevant.

How can you dismiss my point as "fluffy garbage" when these defense accusations make up most of your original content?

[DeasVail]

Llamarble get to keep their spots in the town pile!

Why?

His play just seems really town. I don't know if I can explain exactly what I mean, but his posts seem a lot more like making sense of the game (a lot of PoE, grouping players into categories-type posts) than actually looking town with analysis. His suspicion seems really genuine (e.g. the post on Konowa- 899 and also he's had similar thoughts to me, which although isn't necessarily a valid towntell, is probably contributing to my ~good feelings~ ). Other things are his response to his wagon and desire to change his game, and just things he says like commenting on my reaction test silliness finding scum after all.

I still feel like I haven't really said it properly. Maybe tomorrow.

[Zachrulez]

Zach same goes to you, you wanted a case and now you've straight up ignored it. Explain to me how CTD's drive to get N lynched makes any goddamn sense with N scum.

Logically the interactions don't make sense if you're both scum. Experience teaches me that I shouldn't ignore overall play though.

I haven't ignored your case. Still thinking on that. Don't mistake the lack of an immediate reaction for the absence of thought. If I'm moving, it's probably back to CES. (I'd be inclined to compromise on Ben, but he's not one of my main suspects.)

[Benmage]

Did anyone else laugh at what OGML posted as a "case"...??

Okay, so I had little interaction with CTD... So? Guess who else had little interaction with CTD, YOU(OGML). I was reading CTD as town. Wrong obv.

I did call Penguin an easy mislynch, and was right there... check.

I called him a shitty, expendable player. True (see his "case"). He puts that a case against me?!?! I've been in favor of policy lynching atrocious players many a time. Oh right I'm manipulating my meta (we'll get there)

*I'm laughing at town, call to lynch Vi, but then opt to NK instead... and this is me just having a good ole jolly...

Yes I was defending CES, but I'm actually curious to see how he flips.
--He's calling out chainsaw defense preflips

-And I'm manipulating my meta to be lackadasical... ZzZzz I already said not this game. I have too much mafia integrity to be this atrocious. Sure one day, I'll mess it up somewhat... play a little aloof.... but not this lolol... Not where I say I'm not trying, thats like lying to MAFIA(itself) (ohboy this is reading like a lot of wine if I was scum) ***But essentially you have to try as scum. Using RL, and being lethargic is simply not playing the game and an insult to the game. In my mind moreso as mafia. Because as town I can coast a few days, let other plays *perform* and then analyze from there... I don't care if they can't read me because I'm not participating because I'm town! I can't do this strategy as scum, because town must anaylze someones contribution an it is impossible if all they do is coast. Hence you'll never see scum benmage coast. (ATLEAST not in the manner of using RL/Laziness as an excuse) WRITE THIS DOWN... if you see Benmage coasting, and then posting sporadically without complaining about RL or some shit, you just caught me changing said meta. MWAHAHAHA (This will likely bite me in the ass one day, but I plan on a hiatus after this game.. so try and forget it)

SERIOUSLY PEOPLE WHY DO WE HAVE THIS DEAD WEIGHT OGML!??!?!?! So he flips town, we don't lose endgame.. ZzZZZ

@Llamarble, who are the 6 lynch candidates?? (I'm sure you posted it, but please just redo)
-Tammy + Llamarble both voting CES concerns me. Tierce, Tammy, LLamarable, Empire can't all be town. I'm most confident Llamarble is town, I can't tell is Empire buddying me is a scumtell, or the only one here with half a brain. so cheah.

Zach... in what universe could this possible be benmage scum (You're better than that).. Didn't you read WF?. I haven't been trying since D1, so ignore this temporary V/La....

[Benmage]

Nacho - for scum.
CES - for paranoia
OGML - for the games sake

^Those should be the lynch options.

[Benmage]

Actually f-that.

CES is so town, he wouldn't have been all useless with me as long as he was as scum.

Unvote vote Nacho

Scum, Or OGML... get your act together people.

[Zachrulez]

Zach... in what universe could this possible be benmage scum (You're better than that).. Didn't you read WF?. I haven't been trying since D1, so ignore this temporary V/La....

Nacho strangely is echoing points he tried to make on you as scum in white flag. I'm pretty convinced that I don't really have a perfect grip on your meta, but one of things I do recall being prominent as a meta point is that you hate lurking as scum.

What I'm really chewing on is how genuine I find OGML's points. It's hugely association based so I am not hugely moved by it on those merits, it's more a matter of whether I think he actually believes what he's saying in the context of actually scumhunting.

I have this feeling in my gut that all the argument against you is "easy mislynch" related.

I think CES is scum mostly on the basis of inverse alignment with Vi. His meta as far as I understand is completely null so the only way to really read him is in relation to everyone else. So far his top scum reads have been whiffs and OGML if scum would be bussing what would be considered a weak scumbuddy or another mislynch. In either scenario I find CES town hard to swallow.

[Empire]

The interactions with CTD were the only thing that kept me from voting the slot during the last dayphase if I'm remembering correctly. Now that I think about it, that's probably not a good enough reason. The replace out was a big fat null for me.

Well, I don't really know what good traitor play is here (I come from a site where traitors don't know their partners and vice versa + they cannot be recruited, so the role is seldomly used) but my assumption is that traitors are typically reluctant to hardcore bus because they know they're the most expendable member of the team. Now, CES said that CTD is "tricksy" (and I have no reason to believe CES is lying about this, especially considering what CTD got his banner for) which means he may be capable of pulling that kind of strategy but I do lean on the side of unlikely. As for the replace-out, I've seen scum replace out under pressure like that before (see: Paschendale in Mafiastuck) but this seemed more motivated by his frustration with Tierce/me rather than his inability to produce content as scum (I don't know if I'm making sense here but this is what I'm thinking).

I can't help but think that Benmage is a capable enough scum player to go "okay, if I lurk like hell, I won't get suspected".
He also feels a little less aggressive than usual. Generally when Benmage is suspected when he's lurking like hell as town he would have popped in a couple of times with "MY SCUMGAME IS FLAWLESS", but nothing of the sort so far.

The issue is not whether he's

capable

of lurking as scum (I think we can all agree that he is capable of it) but whether he'd actually go and contemplate that kind of strategy. It definitely seems like a point of pride for him (see: #192) and he's already mounted the kind of defense you're referring to (putting aside his most recent posts and #192, see #1075) so I don't really get where your accusation is coming from.

Tierce, Tammy, LLamarable, Empire can't all be town.

Well, I've got news for you...

~~~

Tierce, I'm going to grab some food and deal with the OGML meta stuff when I come back. I went through some of the games (P.S.: your Open 411 link is busted) while bored in class and my inclination is that he's town here as much (as it hurts to admit) as his reaction to being suspected I think more resembles him-town and I think he's pushing the Ben/CES case with the kind of genuine conviction that I saw in Micro 53. Can you look into CES/Benmage in the mean time and give me your thoughts on them? I plan on tackling at least one of them if not both today.

(Tammy, would really appreciate your help with all this too.)

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

N hasn't played in any mafia games since replacing out. The timing of it (during the Night) also suggests that that is not what happened.

There is definitely some stuff in OGML's last few posts that's genuine but nothing that really relates to his alignment.

[Tammy]

My internet is out and will be until I pick up a new modem tomorrow...hopefully.

If you want me to look at something specific, let me know., but I'm not going to post much on my phone because this just sucks.