395: Big Lebowski -- game is dead :(

[riktus]

/confirm

[riktus]

Well, it seems I missed that. If this is the attitude to be expected from the Mod, I will request replacement.

Come on man, it wasn't really a harsh response. He had explicitly said in the sign up that it should be people who'd seen the film, but that's certainly easy enough to miss. Anyway, look 'er up on wikipedia, and watch it if you possibly can - simply because it's awesome.

[riktus]

I haven't seen the movie but I checked out the wiki. Do I have to say bye-bye too?

Look it up on wikipedia or rent it or something.

If you've wikipediaed it I'm sure its fine. Speaking for myself, I'd like to get going asap. But I'd still watch it if you get chance

Guess we're looking for replacements already :/

[riktus]

I am also away Friday am -> Sunday pm, unsure whether I will have any access.

[riktus]

Awesome, good work Fircoal + Sherlock for getting the show on the road.

Random.org says ...

vote: kirbyphreak

[riktus]

Hmmm. I think any kind of reliance on big kahunia's observations would be foolish, but they are an interesting place to start.

Fact: Mafia can only talk at night

- I can't swear to it without going back and looking, but I'm pretty sure I've played in a game where there is no Night 0 but mafia have the opportunity to talk - and it certainly doesn't seem out of the question in a mini game.

[riktus]

I can now swear to it: in Newbie 220 I was mafia and allowed to talk pregame as well as a night. The rules make no specific provision that mafia will only be allowed to talk at night that I can see, and as such I find your defense in this point at best lacking or at worst downright incriminating (if you know the specifics of when this mafia is allowed to communicate )
As for a day start being to prevent any mafia strategy head-start, I imagine it is more to stop people being killed before they have started playing where we only have 12 players - a night start could easily chop that down to 9 before anyone has said a word. Pre-game communication seems feasible to me.

unvote, vote Colonel_Kurtz

[riktus]

It was not intended as proof by example, more as disproving your statement:

Fact: Mafia can only talk at night

My argument is that this is NOT a fact, and I have given an example of this. I quite agree that the usual practise is that mafia can only talk at night, I just wanted to make clear that it wasn't a cast iron defense (or indeed, a fact )

You may want to take a reread of my posts, as at no point did I intend to infer "oh, well obviously the mafia are allowed to talk at night if there's a day start because we did it in this one game", instead just say that it IS a possibility and should not be discounted. I hope that this was a case of misconstruing my arguments rather than deliberately manipulating them.

My argument actually is:
Your defense is mafia can only talk at night
I have a counter-example, whereby mafia could talk pre-game
Therefore your defense does not stand up - there is a

possibility

that mafia could talk pregame. Further, I suggest that the mini game is a set up more likely for it to occur than in a larger game.
Oh, and that means you might possibly be scum


But you didn't come off as a jerk

[riktus]

I think it's easier to address your points by quoting them first, sorry for the oversized post ...

I looked into the Newbie 220 setup, and IN THE RULES OF THE GAME the moderator made a concession that the mafia could talk during pregame.

This was in his listed posting of the rules

You are the mafia. You may only talk with each other during the game's "night" (and pre-game) not during the "day." You let me know before the night's deadline who will be your victim. You win the game when all the other players are dead. You have time to talk with your partner until I start the day.

Our moderator has made no such note.

My bad, I had missed that the mod put the note out with the rules - I only reread my role PM. Doesn't alter the point really though - which was that it is not necessarily FACT that mafia cannot talk pregame.

Oh, and by the way, ricktus, say what you mean and mean what you say:

You may want to take a reread of my posts, as at no point did I intend to infer "oh, well obviously the mafia are allowed to talk at night if there's a day start because we did it in this one game", instead just say that it IS a possibility and should not be discounted. I hope that this was a case of misconstruing my arguments rather than deliberately manipulating them.

Well, I didnt say that the mafia are allowed to talk at night if there's a day start because we did it in this one game, I challenged your statement of fact. Perhaps my choice of phrasing in the first place was a little unclear, but again all I'm trying to say is that

it is a possibility

.

Oh, I did, and I see there that you're voting for me.

As for a day start being to prevent any mafia strategy head-start, I imagine it is more to stop people being killed before they have started playing where we only have 12 players - a night start could easily chop that down to 9 before anyone has said a word. Pre-game communication seems feasible to me.

unvote, vote Colonel_Kurtz

Call me old-fashioned, but to me, a vote means "I think that this person deserves to be lynched the most", not "it is a possibility that this mafia game could have had pre-game scum communications, and since that is a possibility and you had a combination of internet/holiday/life issues and didn't confirm when you were tending to your Mini, that means that you could possibly be scum so I think I'll just put a vote there on you no cause for alarm just little vote there it doesn't mean I have to make a decision on what I think about you just that you're the most scummy right now". Haven't you people heard of an FOS?
But then there's bandwaggoning...which I'm not big into, except back in the 'Nam, of course...

Basically, I have a hard time believing that you just think it's a possibility that scum could communicate pre-game, because you voted for me with that being the lone point that you have as to why I'm scum. I consider a vote to be a fairly strong action against someone, so excuse me if I misunderstood your intent.

1. My vote was in relation to you stating as fact something which I proved to be false, far more than it had anything to do with whether you had actually been talking pregame. My whole point is that your defense by stating that scum cannot talk pregame as fact is erroneous - I'm not saying they can, I'm saying they MIGHT be able to. Circumvention of rule 1 may well relate to masons, or mafia talking at night - it most likely does - but nothing explicitly precludes pregame mafia communication.
2. You had one vote on you at that time. Seven are needed to lynch. Coupled with the fact that I was voting for a different reason to the first vote (although I didn't explicitly state that) I don't see it as bandwaggoning. Votes always fly around a lot at the start of day 1, I am happy using mine to generate some discussion.

[riktus]

And since you're being flaky about the pre-game communication issue, I actually fail to see *why* you are still voting for me at this point.

I fail to see how I'm being flaky about pre-game communication issue. As I said at the beginning

I think any kind of reliance on big kahunia's observations would be foolish, but they are an interesting place to start.

they are an interesting bit of circumstantial evidence, and give us a basis for discussion. My problem, once again, is that you have stated

as fact

in your defense something which

is not fact

.

And it still is a fact that in the generally accepted rules of mafia, scum can only communicate at night; you have failed to actually disprove that it isn't a rule unless otherwise noted.

I quite agree with the first part, not quite sure what you mean in the second part though - did you mean "... failed to disprove that it

is

a rule unless otherwise noted"? Well, no, I haven't - because there are no set hard and fast rules for mafia, it is left to the mods discretion and I assume that they can let people talk outside the thread without informing the game as a whole if they wish. I think the point is that YOU have failed to prove that scum can only communicate at night unless otherwise noted. Once again, I'm just saying it is a possibility, there are no rules which explicitly rule out that possibility - but you are stating as fact that mafia can only communicate at night.

Really like to hear a bit more input on this from elsewhere - lots of people who have hardly said anything yet.

[riktus]

The mod has recently changed the rule listing:

1) Do not discuss the game outside of the thread

[EDIT]

or before game has begun.

however, this is still qualified with this:

Certain roles may allow some of the above rules to be circumvented, as specifically indicated. (I don’t think I’m revealing too much by saying that a role exists which allows rule 1 to be broken.) If you feel a mistake has been made or you’re just not sure about something, feel free to PM.

I think the clarification of the rules still leaves pregame scum communication as a possibility, hence have a problem with CK's earlier defense and will be keeping an eye on him, but I'm going to stop banging on about this for now - its not getting us anywhere. I have found nothing really scummy about his later reaction, so for now I'm going to

unvote Colonel Kurtz

.

So, that's the experience I'm coming from when I say 'I need more to go on' and I'm surprised that so many people are seriously condemning players with only b_k's allegations.
...
'So many people' =
Colonel Kurtz- 3 (lazarusmoth, riktus, warpdragon)
chaotic_diablo- 2 (chaotic_diablo, big_kahunia)

I wasn't voting based 'only on b_k's allegations', and I quite agree that we do need more to go on - what I'd really like to see is some input from:
kirbyphreak & PlaysWithSquirrels (nothing since confirm)
Masterchief (just a tongue in cheek OMGUS vote on Fircoal)
and particularly lazarusmoth with just an unexplained 3rd vote on Colonel Kurtz
We might need prods on the first 2 if we don't hear anything soon ...

[riktus]

While Colonel Kurtz may have a rather abrasive posting style, he has a point - and hasn't made any direct personal attacks. Don't think that little aside was of much use, as CK says, lets get on with the game. Just one question CK - when did the mod state that BKs argument was completely invalid?

Sucks that PlaysWith Squirrels is out - if nothing else because I was hoping we could get something from his stalling. Hurrah for the return of Atticus, I look forward to some new input there.

Lets try and get things moving. Fircoal - you have been unbelievably wishy washy so far. I know that you are new, and this is one of your first games, but even so you seem to have so far produced placeholder posts so people know you are there and don't ask you anything.
e.g.

I was thinking and I don't think this arguement proves any facts, the reason for me not posting is because it doesn't seem like the discussion is on the scum, as much as it is on the rules and personal attacks.

It's day one, we have approximately nothing to go on. I don't really see how we are supposed to be discussing 'the scum' - we are just trying to generate some discussion in order to have something to go on. Discussions on personal attacks and the rules are generally just a means to an end - and not contributing to the discussion does not help the town. What are your thoughts on what has happened so far - and why were you so quick to jump off your first vote on Masterchief?

[riktus]

For everyone's information, this is what I think is the current vote count - Sherlock, could you confirm?

Vote Count

, powered by The Count-Counter 2000

Colonel Kurtz- 2 (lazarusmoth, warpdragon)
lazarusmoth- 2 (big_kahunia, chaotic_diablo)
big_kahunia- 1 (Atticus)
Fircoal- 1 (Masterchief)
No Lynch- 1 (Colonel Kurtz)

Not voting (5): kirbyphreak, PlaysWithSquirrels, riktus, Fircoal, willows_weep

7 to lynch.

Will post an actual response in a minute ...

[riktus]

Firstly, I'd like to request an extension on the deadline. Its a good idea to try and get things shifting, but when beyond confirming we still have only 3 posts about the game in total from kirbyphreak, lazarusmoth, PlaysWithSquirrels, masterchief and warpdragon (3 posts between 5 players, nearly half of the game) I think it just penalises the people who are actually playing. Let us know how the prods and replaces are going, and give us a couple of days to try and get things moving?

Failing that, I think I am going to have to follow CKs example and

vote: No Lynch

. Its horrible, effectively making it the same as if we started at night (how deliciously ironic), but with so little information I don't want to risk handing two town deaths to the mafia before we get any real discussion. Of the two possible lynchees at this time, I would choose lazarusmoth for his unexplained vote on CK - but he hasnt been anywhere for a fortnight so it is unsuprising he hasn't defended himself.

With only 24 or so hours to deadline, I would urge anyone else who gets on to vote No Lynch, as taking anyone out now is effectively picking a name out of the hat.

[riktus]

I don't see how a no lynch will benefit us, but I'll see what happens after a bit.

It doesn't. But a lynch with nothing really to go on benefits us less in my opinion, cos we haven't really made it any more likely that we'll hit scum.

[riktus]

Ok, well I got nothing to add really. Away for the weekend, so may be unable to post for the next 36 hours ...

[riktus]

Its back ... but I'm not quite yet warned adele that I am off for a week now* so I'll leave my reread until my return - definitely like to remain in the game, but if I need to be replaced so be it.
Try not to lynch anyone till I get back

*I'm going skiing, get to the airport in ~12 hours, yay.

[riktus]

Hello chaps and chapesses, I am back and will be with you properly tomorrow. Have kept roughly up to date, but need a read through again.
IIRC a major portion of the discussion this last week has been about the decision to no lynch - I was one of the culprits there, so if someone (Yos?) wants to ask me about that and get the ball rolling when I'm back tomorrow, please do. Effectively, it wasn't a good idea - but I found the alternative (which was making an arbitrary decision with half the players missing) to be worse. No lynch when everyone is playing and a deadline is approaching but you cant decide? Terrible idea. No lynch when almost noone is talking and the alternative is little better than picking a name out of the hat? I see that as somewhat more acceptable.

[riktus]

I seem to remember something from JEEPs common tells in the wiki mentioning that commenting on protown deaths was a potential tell. However I think that was more along the lines of 'oh it sucks that our doctor was killed' = scum - and that bit of the wiki has dsappeared for now . Willowsweep, I presume, mentioned BK because Yos had FOSed him. I'm just wondering why you see it as a scumtell CD? Can you reference any of the other games you have seen this tell in action?

I have also noticed somethign of an inconsistency in your laest explanation. You say:

Commenting on the night's events could simply be scum faking surprise at how it went. They kill, then gasp in shock as they see who it is and state

"Oh my, Bk is dead, AND an inventor, AND protown."

Information such as this is provided by the mod at the time of death and the act of surprise is just an attempt to look innocent.

whereas willows_weep in fact said

OOo...I need to do a read through.

But I do know that B_k is dead. He was the inventor. And pro-town. The mod said so

I don't really see the suprise you mentioned there, there is certainly no 'Oh my'.

[riktus]

@CD:
I saw the 'oh my' as a misrepresentation, as I dont see the suprise you do. I certainly didn't read anything into the ooo at the start. You still have made no reference to the suggestion that it was a response to Yos's FOS.

As for the reread ... well, I've been in from the start and need one too tbh. The game started 3 months ago, had a 1 month long night one and has had about half the players replaced - I personally don't remember day one with that much clarity.

Now, stating the obvious facts does not help advance the game. How is that protown? OMG, he's protown, dead, and inventor! NO F*CKIN SHIT SHERLOCK.

What, you mean the obvious facts WHICH YOS HAD MISSED? Oh ok then, they won't help at all then [/sarcasm].

I find myself unable to agree with most of what you are saying, possibly just due to a different interpretation, but I feel you are generating suspicion where none was needed and hence

vote: c_d

, putting you to lynch -2.

[riktus]

Yeah, I'd go with claim I think.

I don't care what you do if you claim.

Did anyone else not quite get what he meant here?

[riktus]

Anybody else like to know some character information? With the relatively small set of characters to choose from, claim of a character which would be viable as part of a two man protown masonic team is likely to be quite ... interesting.

AFK for 48 hours now guys, apologies ...

[riktus]

I guess 197 was ok as it was an 'i'm going away' post. MOS made an excelent suggestion for communicating some time ago

Yay for post restrictions. Use your voting as morse code. Vote yourself to represent ".", and vote no lynch to represent "-". Go Go translation!

Care to explain anything tcc?

[riktus]

presumably tcc is supposedly even more restricted than he appeared - dont have time to puzzle it out now, but

unvote: chaoti_diablo

as that shouldnt be on there any more.
In fact, after a very brief glance, tcc has been switching votes to the last person to vote him. Don't vote me for doing this unless your restriction compels you to do so

vote: the central scrutinizer

- just an experiment, I will remove the vote after your next post.

[riktus]

unvote: the central scrutinszer

Presumably you therefore have free will in whom you vote for - if you can vote yourself/no lynch, use those to morse code some explanation. If not you could use votes with capitalisation of the letters you want to communicate perhaps.
Regardless, please try to tell us something.

Agreed with what MOS says, always the risk he may be a Jester however.

[riktus]

That mean yes. Unfortunately, it'll take very long before we get it.

Surely that in fact means no?

[riktus]

Mmmm, lunch.

Anyway,

Vote: Riktus

, if TCS is scum, then riktus seems to be the one trying to pass-off his post-restriction the most.

Then logically, you should be trying to lynch TCS, not Riktus. Your argument is only valid of TCS is proven scum, so proving TCS's scumness should be a priority to support your argument.

I concur, your vote makes no sense. OMGUS etc. Out of interest, does anyone know what happens with a jester - if they are lynched, does town lose and the game end?

TCS, another question for you, using the same communication system:
"TCS, we're going to ask you some yes or no questions. If the answer is yes, say:

unvote, vote:Yosarian
unvote, vote:chaotic diablo

If the answer is no, just say

unvote, vote:chaotic diablo "

finish this off with whatever vote you want, just leave a big gap to avoid confusion if you would.

Question: Does your restriction also indicate who you have to vote for? (i.e. if no this rather random voting pattern is your choice)

[riktus]

Yay, game back!

Warpdragon has indeed been rather uncommunicative through the game, I'm happy with him as a starting point and would like to hear what he has to say.

On another note; MOS was a lyncher? That's interesting.

Did I miss something? The start of day blurb just says he was independent. Am I missing something? Does this mean he was definitely a lyncher? Do you know something I don't?

[riktus]

Again, uh, what? And where does "Lyncher convertible" come from?

[riktus]

Apologies, missed the information up in the opening post, only looked at the start of day message

Warpdagon's response seems generally reasonable to me, but I definitely need a reread.

Atticus - you never addressed this yesterday: why did you vote me as "if TCS is scum, then riktus seems to be the one trying to pass-off his post-restriction the most." as for this to make sense you would first have to assume TCS was scum?

I am away from 15-25 April (heading for South Korea), but I should have internet access most of the time when I'm not actually travelling (ie 15-16 and 24-25 or so).

[riktus]

Just a quick FYI I am still alive (sitting in Seoul at the moment) - no time to read through and post something to get the game moving, but I am up to date and should be back properly in a week or so.

[riktus]

I think The Dude and his compadres do generally refer to it as his rug, so the claim seems fair enough on that basis e.g. ...

DUDE: This Chinaman who peed on my rug, I can't go give him a bill so what the fuck are you talking about?
WALTER: What the fuck are you talking about?! This Chinaman is not the issue! I'm talking about drawing a line in the sand, Dude. Across this line you do not, uh--and also, Dude, Chinaman is not the preferred, uh... Asian- American. Please.

DUDE: Walter, this is not a guy who built the rail- roads, here, this is a guy who peed on my--

WALTER: What the fuck are you--

DUDE: Walter, he peed on my rug--

DONNY: He peed on the Dude's rug--

WALTER: YOU'RE OUT OF YOUR ELEMENT! This Chinaman is not the issue, Dude.

DUDE: So who--

WALTER: Jeff Lebowski. Come on. This other Jeffrey Lebowski. The millionaire. He's gonna be easier to find anyway than these two, uh. these two ... And he has the wealth, uh, the resources obviously, and there is no reason, no FUCKING reason, why his wife should go out and owe money and they pee on your rug. Am I wrong?

DUDE: No, but--

WALTER: Am I wrong!

However I think we need some information on what your role actually is. Just dropping a role name seems rather unhelpful.

Mod

can we get a votecount please? My vote is hovering in warpdragons direction, to get some more out of him if nothing else. Not putting it on without a firmer idea of where we are though, so FOS:warpdragon for now.
Claim more!

[riktus]

The rug as a role name seems relatively reasonable, don't really see how you can lean towards believing a claim without knowing what it is he's claiming though :s

[riktus]

Wouldn't willows_weep as "Delfino" (PI) count for the cop role, getting innocent/guilty results? Sorry for not spotting that one before. I'm not entirely convinced by your current load out of remaining roles, apart from anything else we've turned up some pretty random roles so far.

[riktus]

I'd seen it ages ago and then forgotten all about it

@Atticus - PI is a Private Investigator. Like Magnum.

[riktus]

Yeah, assume Fircoal is now at lynch -1, so let's hear what he has to say...

Happy Birthday Adele!

[riktus]

Thanks SV, nothing to add really, just waiting on Fircoal / replacement.

[riktus]

Yep, thats the situation - and thanks for stepping in Seol!

[riktus]

I really would like to get the game back on the road - Seol, is there any news on replacements for Warpdragon, or especially Fircoal?

[riktus]

I feel like we've been here before :/

[riktus]

Well, I have PMed Meme to see if she can get stuff shifting - been waiting like amonth or something to get this one back on track again, I'd really rather not abandon it if at all possible. Id rather accept lynching Fircoal if we are unable to replace him and getting things going again :/
What does anyone else think?

vote:

don't abandon!

[riktus]

Well damn, it looks like an abandon. Do we win a prize for breaking the most mods?

[riktus]

Ah well, what were everyone's roles then? / anyone (Meme?) have the list?

Or are we supposed to leave it in case the set-up gets reused?

[riktus]

Hehe, SK. The Jesus.