Also, what I meant about Fritzler is this: There is a low probability that the Space Monkey PM explains that the gorillas are lost. It's still possible, of course, but the fact that he said that before anyone else mentioned it makes me think that he is telling the truth.
[color=blue]We are all innocent townies and the mod is an evil bastard laughing at us lynching eachother![/color]
I'm at M├â┬®xico as an exhange student and abit inactive.
thesheamuffin: I'm off to masterbate
Uber Timmy: CAN YOU PLAY ONE HANDED
[color=blue]We are all innocent townies and the mod is an evil bastard laughing at us lynching eachother![/color]
I'm at M├â┬®xico as an exhange student and abit inactive.
thesheamuffin: I'm off to masterbate
Uber Timmy: CAN YOU PLAY ONE HANDED
"Faust complained about having two souls in his breast, but I harbor a whole crowd of them and they quarrel. It is like being in a republic." ~Otto von Bismarck
sure of, instead of fairly sure. I'm knocking down klebian and Glork simply because I can still easily see either of them as scum, whereas I believe dahen's crumb to an extent that I would really have to stretch to see him as scum.
I would like a full role-claim from Masterchief at this point. No stalling.
Also, nobody be stupid and end this day prematurely: since it will be difficult to find scum in the first three days, I almost feel like we're starting a new game on Day Four. We should treat today as such, and try to get as much discussion as possible.
petroleumjelly wrote:Also, nobody be stupid and end this day prematurely: since it will be difficult to find scum in the first three days, I almost feel like we're starting a new game on Day Four. We should treat today as such, and try to get as much discussion as possible.
Fair enough.
unvote
, only to keep the day from ending quickly.
My personal feeling is that Fritz/Glork/dahen are the people off my list that I feel comfortable about trusting. Doesn't mean I won't consider investigating them, but I find it likely they are in the majority.
I actually think MC is 50/50 either way; I could see him being an idiot and doing this with either alignment. Of course, that said, in either case he's a potential liability.
I replaced into Chess Mafia for 6 months, and all I got was a win and this lousy sig.
Aw, PJ, you can trust the Glorkster. Do you really think I would accept a pseudo-confirmed innocent state as a scumbag and then try to stab you in the back later on? <333
Glork wrote:Aw, PJ, you can trust the Glorkster. Do you really think I would accept a pseudo-confirmed innocent state as a scumbag and then try to stab you in the back later on? <333
Anybody who ever seriously tries to lynch PJ loses all "trust" I might have otherwise given them.
petroleumjelly wrote:Also, nobody be stupid and end this day prematurely: since it will be difficult to find scum in the first three days, I almost feel like we're starting a new game on Day Four. We should treat today as such, and try to get as much discussion as possible.
Fair enough.
unvote
, only to keep the day from ending quickly.
My personal feeling is that Fritz/Glork/dahen are the people off my list that I feel comfortable about trusting. Doesn't mean I won't consider investigating them, but I find it likely they are in the majority
I kept track of this game before the crash when I asked for a chance to replace in. Then I lost track of it for a while due to crashes and internet problems. Here's my summary (with no analysis at all) from where I caught up.
PJ: Possibly 2 scum groups, alternate killing nights, or one group was stopped from killing every night. #1: BIRD and IN.
G votes PJ, FOS MC.
G: rather lynch PJ and KLE, after THOK says CES is better lynch, votes CES.
dahen says may not have 2 killing groups.
MC: Why CES?
TWT: votes MC.
MC votes TWT.
PK votes CES.
KLE: Case against CES: short posts, wagoning, not hammering because they've been worse offenders (PB, PK, FZ). FOS DAH for wagoning CES without reason. FOS G and STD for changing votes
THK: KLE is part of informed minority.
PK: PK will get KLE.
MC votes CES.
THK: wagon isn't about CES playstyle, it's about him being informed minority.
VC --> CES (space monkey): 7 (Thok, PJ, G, dahen, STD, PK, FZ)
DAH: no night kill, but shouldn't be happy cos only gorillas die.
THK: will wait for people to show up before talking.
FZ: no idea what's going on.
PJ votes G.
G: nothing to be confused about if you're part of uninformed majority. what does PJ think of lynch?
PJ: Confusing because THK led mislynch on CES, called it excellent. Town is prone to wagoning. Gorillas are not scum and space monkeys are?
G: Is PJ gorilla or sm?
NS: figured it out.
PJ 530: Totally confused. Claim: Gorilla soldier, scum, no night choices. Scum group is stupid, MBL and Z had same role, nightkilled. Z speculated about traitor roles, was obviously scum. Scum group should have tried to find him, but Z was killed. PJ left hint. Unvotes G.
sm = informed minority, gorillas = uninformed majority, probably no group of gorillas searching for anybody.
Stoofer lying about flavour. 'Small number of gorillas, gorillas are org, sm no weapons (informed minority of sm), only lynch can kill gorillas, but 2 gorillas nightkilled.'
G: sm are scum, gorillas are town. sm knew this. scum would prevent people from finding things out, z was killed because he was talking about traitors. G made case against PJ, said gorilla town sm scum coincidence, PJ zoomed in on that and shot it down, pursued BIRD, IN, G, PJ trying to keep lynches rolling. Believe claim.
- G Votes MC for wanting IN lynch.
- Multiple scum groups because sm doctor killed, but only 1 kill per night.
- Pressure lurkers.
PJ: Yes, wanted lynches because PJ thought PJ was scum. Everyone was wagony because they wanted to be found by scum group at night.
FZ: monkeys could be given our pm, stoofer has same pm (win when gorillas are killed)
THK: sane gorilla cop. He knows 4 confirmed gorillas. Speedy's kill due to setup.
DAH: claims gorilla. Breadcrumbed.
PJ: THK is town, should later reveal investigation.
MC (541): he mostly asked about people who are close to lynch, he was useless to town if he gives up, he wanted to find out why people wanted him to die.
KLE: claims townie, no breadcrumbing because he didn't think gorillas knew they were looking for people, THK should say results, PJ is confirmed. Is IN a RBer?
PJ: claiming gorilla soldier = giving scum info. KLE: how was he supposed to be reunited, cannot assume PJ confirmed. GF/Millers unlikely due to townpeople thinking they're scum and pushing for lynch.
PJ: Thok and DAH > Gorilla than G, but G probably gorilla. STD: fingering gorillas everywhere, STD's post BIRD + IN > 0 scum, would distance after seeing 4 gorillas votes for CES as if he's sm, would wagon even if he is gorilla. Undecided whether MC/TWT is diversion.
KLE: explain hesitation in hammering CES and FOS (not vote) on others?
G: alignments revealed, no roles.
PJ/G: not advantage because no counter-claim.
THK: he can catch fake claim. If he's killed and is gorilla, all gorillas are gorillas.
KLE (549): Thought he'd be found if scum tried to kill him. Scum probably wouldn't have townie pm (PJ cleared). Strong point against STD, PJ naive about G, wanted CES hammered but wanted stronger case. FOS people who were wagoning recklessly on someone who was being lynched for wagoning recklessly.
To DAH, explain 521 (talks to THK about having no night kill.)
PJ: All gorillas will be gorilla. If KLE thought KLE found via killing, why gorillas get nightkilled? Speedy might not have been a player. Agree with KLE, G not cleared, THK easier time due to his role. Thought scum killing own traitors, or alternating kills.
KLE: same logic as PJ.
PJ: satisfied with KLE. Possible sm: FZ, MC, NIghtson, PB, PK, STD, TWT.
DAH: not convincned KLE is gorilla. Spoke to THK because THK was reason for lynching CES, wanted to see hie reaction. Theory: gorillas had to choose between killing or recruiting and were unlucky to kill their own.
TWT votes MC, can't remember game.
MC: voting
STD: Apologises.
FZ: Only scum apologise.
STD: Only scum use bad scum tells, THK should reveal if his results don't cross PJ's list. Votes FZ based on gut.
TWT: MC's post. Don't put words in TWT's mouth.
MC: Wtf.
PJ: TWT/MC distancing.
G: Kill MC.
TWT: My role. TWT voted MC yesterday.
DAH: THK's result before lynchign MC.
THK: CES sm. PJ g. PB (me) g. PK g.
G: Kill MC today, not now.
AS: confirms THK. Clear FZ because sm know who g's are, but didn't know gs were lost.
MC: asks AS why he admitted to scum.
AS: FOS MC for not reading.
KLE: AS post?
TWT: MC admitted to being scum.
MC: AS is scum.
THK votes MC.
TWT confirm votes MC.
AS: about FZ: unlikely sm pm says g are lost. FZ said it first, so probably truth.
nightson: vote MC.
PJ: full role-claim from MC. Believe DAH.
THK: unvote, FZ/G/DAH can be trusted. MC 50/50.
FZ agrees.
Nice to replace in when I'm confirmed town, though I think Stoofer is one sick **** and I'm never playing another game modded by him again. (nah, just kidding Lucky I only replaced in after PJ's awesome scum-claiming post.)
I confirm Thok's investigation. I believe dahen is town due to his bread crumbing. I think MC is scum, and I want a full claim. No read on Glork yet. I also think some scum are lurking.
I disagree with PJ's initial clearing of klebian. The way I see it, PJ (probably unintentionally) provided klebian with a good excuse for his possible blunder. Refer to this part in my summary:
PJ: All gorillas will be gorilla. If KLE thought KLE found via killing, why gorillas get nightkilled? Speedy might not have been a player. Agree with KLE, G not cleared, THK easier time due to his role. Thought scum killing own traitors, or alternating kills.
KLE: same logic as PJ.
Okay, so he didn't phrase it that way, but he basically said yes, I thought I'd be found via killing because of whatever reason PJ gave.
I agree with your disagreeing of my originally thinking klebian was a Gorilla. I'm not quite sure why I went down the path of logic I went down to come to that conclusion, to be frank. I recall it was something along the lines of:
PJ's immediate train of thought wrote:Yeesh, what klebian is suggesting makes absolutely no sense. I bet if he were a Space Monkey, he would have been able to make a coherent story to help explain himself by Day Four of the game, when he could easily have conversed with partners. Is that a banana? Mmm... *eats*
Oh yeah. He's probably more likely to be a Gorilla...
And probably a few other reasons, like I might have thought he sounded like he was genuinely frustrated or confused, etc. Sometimes I don't even understand why I think things.
But of course, it could just as easily have been that he just plain screwed up, I caught him on it, and simultaneously handed him a tree branch to allow him to crawl out of the quicksand. Hence why he is no longer high-lighted on my lists. Sometimes it takes a few days for such thoughts to register for me.
Good post by SV. Nice to see that you're also doubting Klebian as semi-cleared Gorilla.
I'll have to read on Glork and Fritz. My gut says that Glork is town and that Fritz has posted to little.
A weird idea that just strook me is that there is a SK that does all the killing, while the monkeys blame it on each others. The larger number of Gorillas could account for the Gorilla deaths during the night. It would also explain the mystery around the first death of the space monkey doctor.
However, I don't think this is very likely, but I wanted to say it anyway. I think the first death was pre-arranged to not tip us off too early.
On a side note, have you realized that the title of this game is a hint in itself?
I'm going to go by town/scum convention else the space monkey gorilla thing will make my brain go haywire.
I found it:
klebian wrote:
petroleumjelly wrote:
By that time yesterday, I was still thinking the scum were continually killing their own traitors, or that I was a lost gorilla being sought by two seperate scum groups who somehow kept missing kills or did indeed have alternating kills. I would like to think most players were still on my page by that time yesterday.
This is essentially the logic I told myself when gorillas kept dying. I seriously had no idea what was going on in the game, which is part of the reason why I was angry at those who called speculators suspicious; I had no idea what was going on and you can never be sure what to base your suspicions on if you don't know what's going on and why something strange is happening.
Can someone (probably AndrewS) please refer me to the post where FZ said he knew the gorillas were lost?
Possible scum list:
FZ?
Glork
Klebian
MC/Twomz
nightson
STD
Twito
I skimmed through my summary from day 2 onwards again, and I realised that nightson and STD barely said a thing. Did they have a valid reason? Ie were they away from MS.net completely/posted in V-LA thread, or did they just lurk for this game? I'm a little confused about timeline, but I think STD and nightson have been around for other games.
petroleumjelly wrote:You know what? This game makes no sense to me. I will probably regret doing this later, and I'll probably be the butt end of many jokes for do so, but this game has me confused enough that I don't much care. The nightkills (or lack thereof) make no sense, the lynches make no sense, and everything about yesterday and the start of today makes no sense. I've reread the flavor of the game, I've reread my role, and I've reread the game. All I can hope for is that Stoofer has an extremely messed up mind and is completely screwing with me, but more likely I will just be lynched immediately and feel stupid about it afterwards.
I am a Gorilla Soldier. My role explicitly states that I am scum, which is making me want to delete this post as I'm writing it. I was somehow separated from the Gorillas, have become subsequently lost, and I have no ammunition, and I have been waiting for the Gorillas to find me for four nights. I have no night choices whatsoever. I have asked Stoofer quite a few questions about my role, and he has refused to answer any of them.
If I am indeed scum, then whoever is in the scum group has got to be completely stupid. I am getting the feeling that both MBL and Zindaras had the exact same role as I do, which is why they were nightkilled - because the scum didn't know they were scum. And this is despite the fact that It became pretty obvious to me that Zindaras very likely had my role when he started speculating with me about Traitor roles.
And then he was killed, even though any self-respecting scum group should have tried to "find him". I tried to leave an obvious hint at the start of yesterday:
PJ, Post 487 wrote:
I'm a bit lost in terms of scum groups
, but I don't mind a Vote: Cogito Ergo Sum. I still haven't forgotten about Señor Glork, however.
I could not think of any other way to get across that it appeared (and still appears) that I am part of a scum group, and that I am
lost
, and hence needed to be
found
. If the gorillas are scum as my role leads me to believe, then they are clearly paying no attention and deserve and lose anyways, since it appears to me that the traitor roles have somehow turned into constant nightkill targets.
Unvote: Glork
.
The most I can make of this is that the Space Monkeys are actually the informed minority, and that Gorillas are in fact the uninformed majority, because I am sure as heck uninformed, and if the scum have had four nights to search for me (and seemingly MBL and Zindaras) and still haven't successfully done so even though I have been talking about traitors for two straight days and leaving a blatant hint yesterday, it might be because there
is
no "group of Gorillas" searching for anybody.
Gah, I misread. It's PetroleumJelly that said that, not Fritzler. Here's the post to which I was referring, it started this whole mess.
I still maintain that we should be going after lurky people. Like SV said, Nightson and StD have been very quiet -- which is interesting to me, since StD was much more active earlier in the game. I'll have to go back and check on that -- StD's fading could be indicative of someone who didn't want to misstep when the game state got hairy.
Still, I don't really remember Nightson doing
anything
, so I'd like to really take a look at him. I don't really like his vote on MC; it gives me the impression that he's either busing MC or that he's like "yay, easy mislynch!" I'm obviously leaning towards the former, but I'd wager that Nightson is a stinky Space Monkey Tactical Lurker.
Fritz, unfortunately, will continue to be Fritz. I wouldn't mind applying some pressure, but he's so often hard to read. I don't get the same feeling from him that I had in, say, Covert Ops, so I'm leaning *slightly* towards him being pro-town, mainly because I think that Nightson and StD are better bets.
Twito hasn't really struck me either way. I could almost see the distancing, as PJ mentions it, but I don't think any smart scum are in a position to be busing right now. I'd guess about three scums left, based on the numbers and the schtick surrounding this game, and getting in the kind of argument that Twito/MC are in does not lend itself towards them
both
being scum. Maybe they're suiciding or self-imploding; I don't know. I suppose we all know that they're completely capable of doing so. And MC *is* the obvious bus target if he's just that damned thick. The thing is, I've never seen MC fantically scream OMGUS at a
scumbuddy
when he's going down in flames. As far as I know, he's always tried to shoot down a townsperson instead. I have to think about this more.
Klebian does not strike me as being a scumbag at this time, but I want to read over all of his posts again. I thought he was a SpaceMonkeyTown earlier, which is why I wanted him lynched, but I obviously need to reassess my post-revelation opinion on him.
Preview Edit: Actually, I just isolated Klebian's posts, and I see a couple of things that indicate that he might have been trying to fit in or associate with PJ, and buddy up to him in a way. PJ sortof addressed some of these, but I want to take a closer look at them in just a minute to see if I can talk/write my way through this.
Nightson has made a total of 19 posts. Here's his record:
vote: MBL, phoebus.
The MBL thing.
Accuse Glork and phoebus of being scum.
For apparently no reason.
Vote STD.
Again, for apparently no reason.
Posts some crap I don't understand.
Responds to MBL's accusation that his jokes are scummy.
I see that as him trying to pass off an accusation as a joke.
Defends against Iba by saying it wasn't his fault no one responded to his vote on STD.
Tough. He didn't explain himself, and he didn't push.
Unvoted because he forgot who he's voting.
Here's the next post:
Nightson wrote:
bird1111 wrote:I'm here, and am still wondering why there are votes on Glork for normal early day 1 behavior.
You're getting the most votes and this is all you have to say? Newsflash, Glork only has half the votes you do.
vote: bird
And now he's got slightly less then half.
Inhim I don't find suspicious.
Still kinda suspicious of StD, but not enough for a vote right now.
He voted bird for having the most votes? Wagonish. I don't like how he throws suspicioin of STD around with a vote on bird. Note his unexplained defense in inhim.
Changes his mind and thinks inhim is scummy. Says he wants bird to respond to his lynch-leader status.
Changing his mind so quickly after 2 posts by inhim is weird. It's as if he changed his mind after STD picked the earlier point I mentioned out.
Says he can't hammer.
Votes for MBL. He now says that his vote on bird was 1/2 scumminess and 1/2 pressure. Note that he hasn't said anything about this before till someone pointed it out. Says he unvoted because he wanted a bird replacement.
Refuses to respond, instead bring up an old post.
Says bird has been prodded.
Suddenly votes bird (because bird won't return.)
This directly contradicts what he said earlier about wanting a replacement for bird.
Defends PJ and inhim (no reason given.)
Says he's figured that out. (what's 'that'?)
Hm... It could be that since he thinks gorillas are going to figure out they're townie, he's trying to pretend to have a sudden revelation that he's a gorilla townie too.
Votes masterchief (reason: because he did the same thing in Dr Who.)
I withdraw my request for a claim from MC.
vote: Nightson
I'd like to hear his responses, but he's going to have to work a miracle to convince me he's a gorilla at the moment.
I did a skim through STD's posts in isolation and I see him acting like a madman. Literally. I'd appreciate if someone who has been around throughout (and is cleared) analyse him for me, else I'll have to spend a lot of time reading all his early game posts.
klebian wrote:Well, I'm a soldier as well. Unfortunately, unlike dahen, I HAVEN'T been dropping hints throughout the game, because I don't consider myself a likley nightkill, and I also didn't think the gorillas knew that they were looking for someone, so I didn't think there's much one can do to drop hints when the person you're dropping them for doesn't have a clue...
I do think thok should give his results later in the day, because it seems like he's a likely nightkill for tonight. PJ is obviously confirmed, since he was first to claim, and... well, never mind, my thinking mirrors PJ and his is better worded.
Before I dismiss this thought from my mind, inhim couldn't have ACTUALLY been an unroleblocker, could he have? kthx.
In this post, Klebian tries to associate with PJ and Dahen as a Gorilla Soldier, as he basically claims the same role as both of them. I'm not sure why a Gorilla would want to basically start massclaiming. No need to rush things. I do, however, see how a Space Monkey would want to fit in; less likely to be investigated if someone along the way (such as PJ) decides to vouch for you. Klebian, could you explain what was going through your head when you decided to roleclaim?
(Also, a side-comment to that last question: I don't think inHim was really an unroleblocker. He definitely claimed an interesting role, but it seemed quite obviously fake to everyone involved. I suppose this might be confirmed/denied if Thok gets roleblocked and obtains no result, as the truth of inHim's role is basically only useful if there's an SM-Roleblocker around.)
Klebian wrote:I was under the impression that what my PM meant was that I would get 'found' if my group attempted to kill me. I didn't realize that there was actual 'hunting' for gorillas "going on". That may just be inexperience; I am not familiar with traitor roles and I guess I just assumed incorrectly. That's why I said in my quoted post 'I don't consider myself a likley nightkill'. This is just me being stupid.
Okay, now this I can see. Traitors are generally recruited when targeted by a scumgroup, so there's no need to assume that you'll be
killed
instead. I would have come to the same conclusion if I had a Traitor/Soldier role (Note: This is not an indication one way or another whether I am a Soldier or not; just saying, this is how I would have interpreted it as well.)
PJ brings up an interesting point about how it's dangerous to assume that he is a Gorilla based solely on the claim -- that's something that I had periphially considered, but it didn't sound likely to me at the time. Klebian's response is almost as interesting:
Klebian wrote:I don't know if they're all uniform; the way you described your role is the same as my PM. I considered this, however I dismissed it because I think that the scum have earned enough of an advantage with 3 days of town confusion. Similar to your logic about godfathers/millers, I do not think that the mod would give the scum a generic townie PM coupled with the entire town thinking they are the scum.
Again, he basically says that he's got the same role, PM, etc... which I guess isn't unjustified, as he had already claimed at the time. But he alos says that he assumed that scum would not be given generic Soldier/Townie/What-Have-You role PMs in addition to the backwardsness. On the other hand, when the shit hits the proveribal fan for the scums and we figure things out, any sort of emphasis on
flavorful claiming
pretty much screws them over. As Thok said, it's definitely possible to weed out a fake claim based on flavor alone. Those kinds of things can break a game, so I would actually expect Stoof to give the Space Monkeys an out when the town finally does figure things out. Could you expand a little more on why you don't think SMs would be given PMs (or at least flavor) from the Gorilla perspective?
I love the juicy irony of this paragraph:
Klebian wrote:PJ, I reread the last few pages, and I feel you're being a bit to naiive about Glork. It's interesting that you guys have been butting heads for the past 2.5 days, and today after your claim, he accepts your claim, agrees that monkeys are scum, and now you're fairly convinced he's town. I believe that a space monkey could've easily made 533 as a gorilla. At this point, I think a smart monkey would've seen that their 'cover' for the game was blown, and decided to reveal the truth. Obviously, others were discovering it as well, so it's quite possible that glork made good use of the perfect opportunity to become buddies with one of the most influential town members. Not much of his post is written from a point of view that I would consider solely gorilla, and I as well am feeling that glork is not as confirmed as we may think.
This is where I have to watch my OMGUS tendencies a little bit, since Klebian attempts to discredit me... but the gist of this paragraph is, "It's distinctly possible that Glork, as a Space Monkey tried to sneak into the middle of the 'revelation' so as to look more confirmed." I find it beyond amusing that Klebian suggests that I might be doing so and that I shouldn't be confirmed, when I think that the same argument/evidence can be brought up against him.
So... yeah. I think Klebian might have trying to be a somewhat active, "look at me, I fit in" kind of scumbag. I guess my short list of people who need to die or be looked at is as follows:
Nightson
StD
Klebian
Twito
Of course my first posts were scummy, I thought I was scum. Going off scummy actions in the first three days is going to be like looking for scum in a game made up completely of scum. Only my last two posts wee made in a protown capacity. Getting itwas when I figured out the gorillas were the uninformed majority, it wasn't that hard, Thok and Glork were hinting at it pretty heavily.
As for Dr. Who, feel free to read here where I as mafia do pretty much the exact same thing MC does and accuse someone of being scum because they're a killer robot, not realizing that killer robots would be pro-town. (I also forget a post restriction after the first day and yet survive to endgame and actually win.)
So I'm keeping my vote on MC because I'm pretty sure he's done basically the same thing.
"Faust complained about having two souls in his breast, but I harbor a whole crowd of them and they quarrel. It is like being in a republic." ~Otto von Bismarck
[color=blue]We are all innocent townies and the mod is an evil bastard laughing at us lynching eachother![/color]
I'm at M├â┬®xico as an exhange student and abit inactive.
thesheamuffin: I'm off to masterbate
Uber Timmy: CAN YOU PLAY ONE HANDED
AndrewS wrote:Well, StD usually DOES act like a madman...
This is the truth. StD once tried to challenge Thor, the master of fury and lightning, in the son of Odin's home field. StD did not stand up to thy power of the magical Mjolnir for long.
Why don't you all sort out whose scum, and Thor shall stand here and look pretty.
Lucky I only replaced in after PJ's awesome scum-claiming post.)