Policy Discussion: Banning Players

[Mr. Flay]

1. Do you feel experience requirements are acceptable in Large (Theme/Normal) games?

Yes, within reason. "No townspersons without email" or "Must have completed one other game successfully" would be reasonable, I think. Anything that gets into months/years of experience had better be an Invitational. Familiarity with theme is a common prerequisite, that gets ignored fairly often but at least you can't say you weren't warned, and the players will frequently sort that out themselves by lynching the clueless...

On the other hand, mole is right that there are bad actors who have been here for years, so see #4.

2. If so, do you think they would be appropriate for other types of games, such as Mini Theme games?

Not really. I think minis suffer from less game fatigue due to their (relatively) shorter length, and players on MafiaScum who can't handle those games cannot exactly "find something less intensive" on the site, unless maybe they restrict themselves to Newbie Games. Large and Theme games, though, can go on for six months or more, something many people aren't aware of when they sign up for their first one...

3. Should Mods be allowed to ban specific players from their games?

4. If so, what reasons are acceptable for doing so?

Yes, but we should work out a list of what is and isn't acceptable reasons to do so. "Flaking out in the last game" would be valid for at least one or two games in my book, but not indefinitely. "Not knowing how to spell" or "English as a second language" should not be a reason. Abusive players/those who cheat could be blacklisted globally, under extreme circumstances.

[Mr. Flay]

The problem with punitive requirements is that they punish people for trying to do something for fun (if/when they do come back). Unless people think our rate of growth is truly unhealthy (spam accounts aside), we should not be putting up any barricades to participation, but instead encouraging people to choose more responsible means of participating at the level at which they are able. Punishment should be reserved for cheaters and those who abuse other players, not just flakes.

I kind of like MBL's idea of having those who have been replaced replace others once they return, but not sure how other mods feel about it.

[Mr. Flay]

That's called an Invitational, which is a rare occurrence overall (and requires permission from mith, generally). However they are possible, and I think what mith is asking is if there should be some intermediate level between totally open and totally closed signups.

[Mr. Flay]

I do. I think all of this "the mod's game is their kingdom" stuff is counter to the mission of this site, which is to provide quality Online Mafia games for all comers. If mod's have ultimate authority over their games, why do we have Moderation Queues? Why do we sometimes require games to be reviewed? Why do you think mith set up the first-come-first-served criterion for queues in the first place? If we go down that route, I believe we'll rapidly balkanize into cliques and mod abuse and becoming newbie unfriendly.

Is it that rare for people to pm their preferred players to give them a heads-up that a certain game is starting soon and they'd be very welcome, so they stand a better chance of signing up quickly? Or is that a naughty thing to do?

I don't think it's all that naughty, personally. Queues sometimes fill up so quickly here that if you know someone wants to play an upcoming game of yours, dropping them a line doesn't seem too bad. But if you're sending out 16 invitations to your 18 player game, or waiting til all of your buddies are on scumchat before posting your signup thread...yeah, that's probably skirting the boundaries of fair play a bit.

[Mr. Flay]

I'll see your "is/ought" and raise you an "is&ought" - that's the way it is and AND it's the way it ought to be, in my opinion. That may sound elitist, but there's a lot of anecdotal experience in my world (performing plays and ritual, MUDs, neighborhood watch, mediation) that the things which are uncontrolled tend to be both of lower quality AND of lower perceived value by the participants. MafiaScum definitely errs from time to time on the "too long and thoughty" scale, but I think we've done very well on controlling bad moderator behavior so far.

1) We also have Moderation Queues so that List Moderators can control who is getting in the queue. I've seen several signup threads for Large Themes shut down because people didn't even follow the lightweight process there, and several of them are games that obviously hadn't been thought out very well. Co-moderators and setup reviews are becoming more common, and I think that's a good thing.

2) Why does fairness not also include who can play in what games? If a player perceives that a moderator will never let them in any of their games, ever again, because they got them lynched that one time, is that fair? If Townspersons cannot get into any games they want because everyone starts yelling at them to "Go back to The Road To Rome!", is that fair? If you're not chatting in MishMash and General Discussion, it can take a LONG time to get to Mafia Scum or even Goon level in the forum with just game-related posts.

3) Now here I agree with you somewhat (and I knew my slope was somewhat slippery when I said it). I think first-come-first-serve is not necessarily ideal in ALL situations, but for most games it suffices. Heavy changes to Game Mechanics, really elaborately worked Themes, and problem players (which I don't see your examples rising to the level of, frankly) are special cases that could do with some discretionary power, and I think that's why mith made this thread to begin with. It's certainly been given a blind eye from time to time in the past (there's an old thread where DP, I think, said that he wouldn't allow any Townspersons into his large games).

I know certain people can be irritating, although even one of them I recently had the pleasure to play with and found his arguments logical and his play relatively careful. So there is hope!

[Mr. Flay]

Errr, right. I guess my point is that some players can learn the ropes of our brand of Mafia in 10-20 posts of a Newbie Game, while others take much longer. Applying a blanket exclusion of "All Townspersons/Goons" seems self-defeating to me.

[Mr. Flay]

Uhm, because that would make in an Invitational, which you have to get permission for??