Policy Discussion: Banning Players

[mith]

This was touched on in the Invitational discussion, and I think it needs to be addressed in its own thread.

All games on the site generally fill on a first-come first-served basis. There are some exceptions to this. Invitationals would obviously be one. The Newbie games have a restriction on the number of newbies/ICs. The VM2 application process could have been another, though it ended up acting more as a way to ensure everyone understood what was expected of them before they signed up.

Some mods do occasionally have requirements for signing up. The most common is an experience threshold - more experienced players are given preference, or new players are excluded entirely. As far as I know, this only happens in Large games, as other types of games have signups handled by the List Mod rather than individual game mods.

1. Do you feel experience requirements are acceptable in Large (Theme/Normal) games?

2. If so, do you think they would be appropriate for other types of games, such as Mini Theme games?

On the other end of the spectrum from invitationals is banning specific players. This is fairly rare as far as I know, but does happen occasionally.

3. Should Mods be allowed to ban specific players from their games?

4. If so, what reasons are acceptable for doing so?

I'll leave it at that for now. Please refrain from mentioning specific examples/players if possible.

[Mr Stoofer]

I take the view that a person running a game has a discretion as to who he will allow in, for a number of reasons. It takes a lot of work to write a good set-up and a mod is entitled to take steps to avoid that work being ruined by any one individual. Likewise, replacing players is a stressful and time-consuming activity and a mod is entitled to take preventitve action to reduce the chances of this happening. And I think it is a bad idea in general to force mods to accept players that they don't want in their games. It is a recipe for strife and disaster.

1. Do you feel experience requirements are acceptable in Large (Theme/Normal) games?

Yes, at the discretion of the individual mod.

2. If so, do you think they would be appropriate for other types of games, such as Mini Theme games?

I would suggest the following rule (which I think is a codification of current practice): The general rule is that there are no entry requirements for Mini games. Any mod wanting to impose an entry requirement in a Mini game has to convince MeMe that there is a good reason for such requirement.

3. Should Mods be allowed to ban specific players from their games?

Yes.

4. If so, what reasons are acceptable for doing so?

I wouldn't want a closed list of reasons. Good reasons would include someone whom the mod has had to replace before, or who has caused trouble in a game before.

[molestargazer]

1. Do you feel experience requirements are acceptable in Large (Theme/Normal) games?

Yes, I guess so. Large games need to run smoothly for them to work.

2. If so, do you think they would be appropriate for other types of games, such as Mini Theme games?

No. It's good for less experienced players to get their experience in Mini Games, and playing in themes will help them enjoy the game and learn more about it - this couldn't be done if mods were putting experience limits on.

3. Should Mods be allowed to ban specific players from their games?

Yes.

4. If so, what reasons are acceptable for doing so?

I'd say players who have had to have been replaced in their games more than once, and players who have gone against the rules of previous games (Such as rules in Theme games).

[AndrewS]

1. Do you feel experience requirements are acceptable in Large (Theme/Normal) games?

Yes, at the moderator's discretion. We've seen a ton of newbies hop the queue and jump into a large game without a proper understanding of the basic game. This means that moderators generally have to do one of two things: Create simpler setups to avoid questions of understanding their role and making silly mistakes, or only take on experienced players. Of course, any limits should be reasonably low - 2-5 games.

2. If so, do you think they would be appropriate for other types of games, such as Mini Theme games?
Yes, in fact, moreso. In a mini game, every individual player has a great deal more power than an individual in a large game, and a single player can ruin an entire mini.


3. Should Mods be allowed to ban specific players from their games?
Yes. Some players will simply never get along, and I could see certain players hopping into the signups of certain mods just to make their lives miserable.

4. If so, what reasons are acceptable for doing so?
Among them: Players who break rules, need to be replaced often, have been disruptive or crude. This is not an exhaustive list, however.

[mole]

Well, what kind of behaviour are you trying to avoid in these games? Look back to the thread about bad ICs in newbie games--you're going to find people who have been here for months who are unsuitable for one of these "serious" (for want of a better word) games, and a bunch of brand new players who only need a bit more basic theory before they'd do great.

[Glork]

1) I agree with the prior statements that it's up to the moderator. Some games simply require that you have a working understanding of the nuances of the game, as they are more complex. Other ones may not need such a requirement.

2) No, not particularly. The instances in which a player messes up a game are rare enough that I don't think it warrants the same requirements. Playing with a novice is a part of the game, in my opinion. I think that perhaps we should emphasize or strongly encourage that new Scummers play in at least a couple of newbie games before moving on to games such as those in Little Italy, but I don't think it should be a requirement.

3) Absolutely. Player-Mod conflict should be resolved before the game starts. We don't want another situation like with Literary Mafia (though that was different, as the conflict arose after the game had begun). If a mod doesn't want a player in their game, they should reserve the right to reject that player. I think that they should be willing and able to provide sufficent reason if asked to do so, but I think that it is ultimately their decision.

4) Chronic inactivity is the biggest one that comes to mind. There are some players who quite literally make me groan when I have to play with or mod for them because I almost invariably see them getting replaced. Personal conflicts are a big grey area, but I can think of instances where I can understand and accept a mod barring a player due to past conflicts. I do not, by any means, advocate such a decision as I'd rather see resolution and closure to past conflicts, but I understand why mods choose to ban players based on past personal histories.

[Mr. Flay]

1. Do you feel experience requirements are acceptable in Large (Theme/Normal) games?

Yes, within reason. "No townspersons without email" or "Must have completed one other game successfully" would be reasonable, I think. Anything that gets into months/years of experience had better be an Invitational. Familiarity with theme is a common prerequisite, that gets ignored fairly often but at least you can't say you weren't warned, and the players will frequently sort that out themselves by lynching the clueless...

On the other hand, mole is right that there are bad actors who have been here for years, so see #4.

2. If so, do you think they would be appropriate for other types of games, such as Mini Theme games?

Not really. I think minis suffer from less game fatigue due to their (relatively) shorter length, and players on MafiaScum who can't handle those games cannot exactly "find something less intensive" on the site, unless maybe they restrict themselves to Newbie Games. Large and Theme games, though, can go on for six months or more, something many people aren't aware of when they sign up for their first one...

3. Should Mods be allowed to ban specific players from their games?

4. If so, what reasons are acceptable for doing so?

Yes, but we should work out a list of what is and isn't acceptable reasons to do so. "Flaking out in the last game" would be valid for at least one or two games in my book, but not indefinitely. "Not knowing how to spell" or "English as a second language" should not be a reason. Abusive players/those who cheat could be blacklisted globally, under extreme circumstances.

[MrBuddyLee]

1. Do you feel experience requirements are acceptable in Large (Theme/Normal) games?

Definitely. Any game that's going to take up that much of a player's time (6+ months) should consist of players less prone to flake or unbalance the game with huge newbie mistakes.

2. If so, do you think they would be appropriate for other types of games, such as Mini Theme games?

Personally I think so, at the mod's discretion. I think players who'd rather limit their playtime to games without newbie influence should be able to enjoy minis. (And fulfill their newbie-education obligations in the appropriate forum.)

3. Should Mods be allowed to ban specific players from their games?

Absolutely. If a mod doesn't want their game wrecked by a player who plays randomly or arbitrarily, I think that should be their prerogative.

4. If so, what reasons are acceptable for doing so?

Players known to disclose game information in public channels or otherwise not play by the rules, players who play far too randomly and/or recklessly, players who go beyond argumentative to become abusive, players who consistently fail to remain active in games. Other reasons similar in spirit to these.

5. How should inactivity to the point of replacement be discouraged across multiple games?

By requiring replaced players to replace into and partcipate in a running game in need before they're able to sign up for another new game. This site would benefit from the concept of "replace-debt".

[Mr Stoofer]

5. How should inactivity to the point of replacement be discouraged across multiple games?

By requiring replaced players to replace into and partcipate in a running game in need before they're able to sign up for another new game. This site would benefit from the concept of "replace-debt".

Genius. No excuses - if you've been replaced you have to replace somone else.

[Kelly Chen]

Yay survey.

1. Do you feel experience requirements are acceptable in Large (Theme/Normal) games?

I think they're downright desirable, even if the requirement is just a single in-game post in any other game. Large games get their own signup threads and brand new players are quite likely to try joining in here.

2. If so, do you think they would be appropriate for other types of games, such as Mini Theme games?

Yes, I really think so. I can easily imagine mini theme games where you wouldn't want to have totally green players.

3. Should Mods be allowed to ban specific players from their games?

4. If so, what reasons are acceptable for doing so?

3. absolutely.
4. I don't even care why a mod wants to ban someone, unless we start having major disputes here. I am willing to trust the mod to use good judgment for the sake of his own game. It's hardly so important to guarantee everybody the right to sign up for any game they want, or second chances when they have a bad history.


MrBuddyLee's idea is interesting, but I think it would be simpler to say that flakers can't sign up for new games for some amount of real time (i.e. merely punitive), than to ask them to pay back a debt that they might do very half-heartedly. As a mod I probably wouldn't even want such players as replacements.

[Mr. Flay]

The problem with punitive requirements is that they punish people for trying to do something for fun (if/when they do come back). Unless people think our rate of growth is truly unhealthy (spam accounts aside), we should not be putting up any barricades to participation, but instead encouraging people to choose more responsible means of participating at the level at which they are able. Punishment should be reserved for cheaters and those who abuse other players, not just flakes.

I kind of like MBL's idea of having those who have been replaced replace others once they return, but not sure how other mods feel about it.

[the silent speaker]

1. I think an experience requirement within reason is acceptable in large games.
2. I avoid mini games because the one I played in, I found that my typical one-or-two-per-day posting habits were insufficient for my own defense. Pass.
3. Yes.
4. Habitual need for replacement or some similarly objective thing. Vendettas are not good reasons.

If I ever get around to starting Potterverse Mafia (already reviewed by Fuldu and also looked over by Phoebus) I'll gve priority to people who played in Simpsons or Phoebus's Potterverse Mafia and didn't need replacing, but priority is not the same as bannination.

The biggest problem I find with mas replacings, besides the burden on the mod, is this: if you replace everybody on the cast list, are you still playing the same game or a new one with the same setup?

[Kelly Chen]

once they return

I'm not so concerned about people who leave the site. I'm talking about people who never leave the site but still have to be replaced. Especially those who don't even ask to be replaced, they just do nothing until the mod comes to their own conclusion that the player needs to be replaced.

I guess I think MrBuddyLee's idea isn't as good as selective bans being more common.

[GreenLiquid]

1. Do you feel experience requirements are acceptable in Large (Theme/Normal) games?

Most certainly, but only those chosen by the mod running the game (not a global requirement).

2. If so, do you think they would be appropriate for other types of games, such as Mini Theme games?

Not Mini Themes, because the simplicity of the Mini Queue is that you can hop in and say /in without having to look anything else up. Minis are also sometimes first games for people who think Newbie Games are too small or boring. While I think it would be desirable to slowly encouarage newbies to not make a Mini their first game, it shouldn't be outright banned.

3. Should Mods be allowed to ban specific players from their games

Yes, but only because of gameplay reasons (lurking a lot, breaking the rules, etc.), not because they hold a grudge against them.

4. If so, what reasons are acceptable for doing so?

To form an incomplete list, players who lurk often, players who break game rules, and players who are rude to other players and the mod in games.

[HackerHuck]

1. Do you feel experience requirements are acceptable in Large (Theme/Normal) games?

I haven't finished one of these games yet, but I think it should be allowed at the mod's discretion.

2. If so, do you think they would be appropriate for other types of games, such as Mini Theme games?

As a genreal rule, I don't think there should be more than three non I/C players in any mini game. However, the mod should be allowed to have their own experience requirements (which may allow more than three newbies)

3. Should Mods be allowed to ban specific players from their games

Yes, as long as we have a strong consensus of what acceptable reasons are. I don't think anyone should be put in the position of having to mediate a dispute that results from a ban.

4. If so, what reasons are acceptable for doing so?

I've seen a number of good ones listed so far. Obviously cheating and flaming are good reasons. I don't think lurking would count, unless it causes frequent replacement.

I like MBL's idea of the replacement rule, but I'm afraid that it might make things worse. Those who don't care enough to follow through in a game aren't really the ones we want to force into another game at a later stage where they won't put forth the effort to play catch-up.

[Twito]

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Being replaced in the past. Breaking game rules in the past. And more...

[Simenon]

If Mods are able to chose who gets in and who is not allowed to sign up, what is stopping them from starting games with predetermined players?

Or is that already allowed?

[Mr. Flay]

That's called an Invitational, which is a rare occurrence overall (and requires permission from mith, generally). However they are possible, and I think what mith is asking is if there should be some intermediate level between totally open and totally closed signups.

[Zindaras]

1. Do you feel experience requirements are acceptable in Large (Theme/Normal) games?

Yes.

2. If so, do you think they would be appropriate for other types of games, such as Mini Theme games?

Yes.

I'd like to note, however, that it should never be overdone. To put experience thresholds for difficult, complex games is understandable, or for unofficial invitiationals. However, if every other game is only accessible for experienced players, the newbies aren't going to like it. Things like this should only be used rarely.

3. Should Mods be allowed to ban specific players from their games?

Yes.

4. If so, what reasons are acceptable for doing so?

Really really severe ones. Posting role PMs or otherwise completely ruining a past game of the mod. Something like that. I don't like banning specific players in another way.

We're supposed to be one big family after all.

[Adele]

That's called an Invitational, which is a rare occurrence overall (and requires permission from mith, generally).

There's also heads-up games. Is it that rare for people to pm their preferred players to give them a heads-up that a certain game is sstarting soon and they'd be very welcome, so they stand a better chance of signing up quickly? Or is that a naughty thing to do?

[AndrewS]

We're supposed to be one big family after all.

Vote: Zindaras

[IH]

1.I don't know about a mass experience limit....

Games like Post Restriction and Lights out, definitely yes. Those have some funky mechanics that NEED them.

For others I don't think like.. 10 out of 23 is good for the game, I think the best thing to do would be to perhaps put a limit of like "4 persons with townspersons or referral to another site".

2.Once again I'd say it depends on the mechanics. Make up a set of guidelines, such as mechanics, and leave it up to the mod/list mod's discretion.
Regular mini's should allow newbies though I think... it's very frustrating to just be starting the game, and you can only play one at a time.

I don't know where this should go, so I'll address it here. What about a newbie game stacking system? After you complete one, you can play 2 at a time, and so on until you're out of a newbie status?

3.Yeah.

4.Repeated modkillings is the first that comes to mind. I mean if someone is continually modkilled, they're going to ruin the setup inevitably. I don't know about repetitive lurking... being replaced regularly, yes, but I'd say from the extreme lurking no. Some will argue that it is a method of play, even if it's not a very good one.

I'd say the closer a game is to the middle range, the more.... broad the player selection should be.

Larger games will more than likely have something funky holding them together, and will ruin the game for someone to just come in and eff with it, or newbies doing something.

extremely small games (5 players) should have a full line up of experienced players. (I shouldn't have gotten into vengeful when I did. I wasn't sure how to react, and am pretty sure I lost the game for Stoof X_X)

Medium games, however, seem like the perfect.. well... medium for these players...

[mikehart]

1. Do you feel experience requirements are acceptable in Large (Theme/Normal) games?

1. Yes. Personally I think large games tend to be overwhelming for newbies. With so many people making so many posts newbies are more likely to not read all the posts and therefore make poor decisions/posts and be yelled at for it. I think a good experience limit would be at least two minis for normals and at least one of them themed for theme games. And as others have said, its up to the mod.

2. If so, do you think they would be appropriate for other types of games, such as Mini Theme games?

2. No. Minis are a good for transition from newbie games to full scale games or even for cutting your teeth on. Now for an elaborate mini with very advanced mechanics I think an experience requirement would be a good idea but less strict then large games. And again up to mod.

3. Should Mods be allowed to ban specific players from their games?

3. Yes. In my opinion the mod is god in their game. If the mod doesn't want a particular person in their game then its their decision. Remember, we are talking about something that a person put a lot of thought into. Its their creation. In my opinion if you create it you should have total and utter control over it.

4. If so, what reasons are acceptable for doing so?

4. Any reason the mod wants. If the player denied access has a problem they need to figure out why the mod banned them and rectify it. Why should the mod care if that player is pissed off. Its not the mods job to make sure that particular player doesn't have their feelings hurt. People who would have a problem need to sit back and realize the world does not revolve around them. People get their feelings hurt. Its a fact of life. And as my favorite saying goes, "Cry me a river, build a f***ing bridge, and get the f*** over it."

And yes I am a heartless jaded a**hole.

[Zindaras]

There's also heads-up games. Is it that rare for people to pm their preferred players to give them a heads-up that a certain game is sstarting soon and they'd be very welcome, so they stand a better chance of signing up quickly? Or is that a naughty thing to do?

You're a naughty naughty girl.

But, nah, I think a lot of people do that, and I don't mind it at all. People who hunt for replacements also send out PMs to specific players, and that is comparable. It's also an excellent way to get a good line-up of players (see Stoofer's Mafia 60).

Vote: Zindaras

*sad*

Don't you wuv me anymore?

[M4yhem]

1. Do you feel experience requirements are acceptable in Large (Theme/Normal) games?
Yes, absolutely. As long as the mod makes them clear in the sign-up thread.

2. If so, do you think they would be appropriate for other types of games, such as Mini Theme games?
Yes, but consider allowing experience playing on other sites to count. There’s a big difference between a newbie player and someone who has played before but is new to this site.

3. Should Mods be allowed to ban specific players from their games?
Yes

4. If so, what reasons are acceptable for doing so?
Almost any reason except something like racism or sexism, which would be offensive.

The mods give weeks or months of their time and effort to these games with very little reward. I think it’s only right that they should be allowed to decide who they do this for. If someone wanted to ban me from there games because they don’t like the way I play, I would be fine with that. As long as they were honest with me.
As a mod, first thing I’d do, is ban all the lurkers...