Newbie 310: It's All Over -- WOO-HOO!

[Azkar]

I've been trying to absorb some of what's happened over the past few days, so I appologize for the lack of recent participation.

I still find theopor's actions bizarre. Earlier he said:

I foolishly in some ways thought Azkar's over defence to the random org vote was scummy, however my assessment of Fircoal and Azkar still fits, I'm pretty happy the way things are. Things at least are developing.

When Seol asked him to elaborate on why he thought his suspicion of my defence was scummy, he said:

First question re- the foolish vote on Azkar, it was pretty foolish because the 2 mafia could have come along and hammered him, unless one was already voting him and the other didn't want to raise suspicion, looking back I shouldn't have jumped on the bandwagon especially with Fircoal's first vote being a random one and the argument hardly concrete.

Doesn't really seem like he answered the question at all. Instead, he's changed his tune yet again. It was no longer foolish to find my defence scummy, now it was foolish to place a lynch -1 vote on.

Then we have:

My reasons for doing so remain Azkar's defence and subsequent attack on Vitamin, however I may have been slightly too hasty.

...

Oh and lastly Unvote.

He still believes that I was acting scummy, yet he unvotes. The only reason I can really see may have been if I was in any danger of being hammered. As it stands, though, theopor was the only player currently voting for me. Maybe I'm no longer as fasionable a target as I once was? The wagon's dispersed, so I guess it's time to move on?

So, I still find theopor's actions suspicious. At the very least, he's acting increadibly oddly.

---

As far as the recent back-and-forth between Seol and VR ... I'm still not really sure what to make of it. Seol makes some valid points. I did initially find VR's earlier attack/explanation (wording depending on who's side you're taking) to be suspicious - hence my earlier VR vote. It's possible VR's later posts explaining that it wasn't really an attack really

were

an act to distance himself from a poorly executed attack.

On the other hand, Seol seems to be taking a sort of logical absolutist stance. It seems a bit of a falicy to presume things are always black or white, right or wrong, scummy or not scummy. There are in-betweens. Actions that, when in combination with other actions, present a scummier picture.

For the moment, theopor's actions seem the scummiest to me. I'll watch the Seol/VR debate more to see if I can make anything out of that ..

[VitaminR]

As far as the recent back-and-forth between Seol and VR ... I'm still not really sure what to make of it. Seol makes some valid points. I did initially find VR's earlier attack/explanation (wording depending on who's side you're taking) to be suspicious - hence my earlier VR vote. It's possible VR's later posts explaining that it wasn't really an attack really

were

an act to distance himself from a poorly executed attack.

The problem is that it wasn't a poorly executed attack. I see it as good logic and I could have easily used it as a platform to attack Fircoal from. It would have even been more consistent with my attack on you. If I had wanted to attack Fircoal, I don't see why I wouldn't have done it in the original post. Perhaps to divert attention away from myself and not be held accountable, but that does not really seem consistent with my subsequent focus on a perceived link between Fircoal and you.

[MeMe]

Vote Count

:

theopor_COD

(3):

Fircoal, Thesp, Azkar

VitaminR

(2):

Seol, Avinyl

not voting

(2):

theopor_COD, VitaminR

Four to lynch.

[Azkar]

The problem is that it wasn't a poorly executed attack. I see it as good logic and I could have easily used it as a platform to attack Fircoal from.

Without getting into whether it

was

an attempt at an attack, or an attempt to cast suspicion, I'll say this: if your intent were, indeed, to put Fircoal into a bad light, I'd say that it was poorly executed. Not because the logic you used is faulty, per se, but because it doesn't seem entirely applicable to the situation Fircoal was in.

As I understand it, it started when you pointed out my initial post as being potentially scummy. Fircoal commented that he didn't think it seemed that scummy. When you raised the possibility that Fircoal's defence could be seen as interesting, later in the game, he defended his defence with the statement, "The only reason I defended him, was because it didn't seem like a scum post."

Now, Fircoal's certainly guilty of making a useless circular defence, but I don't

really

see how it becomes an assertion of pro-townieness. Maybe I'm reading things from a slightly different perspective, but the first defence from Fircoal came accross to me as, "It didn't seem suspicious to me." The second defence just restated the first. It was a non-defence, really. He doesn't explain

why

he didn't find it suspicious, just that he didn't.

The avoidance of explanation can be telling in itself, I'm sure, but that's not what you brought to our attention.

[Seol]

To summarise from my point of view- yes, VitaminR, I think your summary of the debate in post 99 is fair. I also think that we've been talking at cross-purposes for a portion of this debate.

On the other hand, Seol seems to be taking a sort of logical absolutist stance.

Indeed I have, but not in the manner you mean. I have almost total faith in the scientific method, by which I mean that if you establish A is true and B necessarily follows from A then that means B is true. There's a reason my custom title is as it is.

That doesn't mean I think things are always black or white, as many actions can be interpreted different ways and the conclusions that can be drawn from those actions are often not so simple.

However, if you believe A is true, and B follows from A, that means you should believe B. That's what I was having trouble with - VitaminR said he believed the logic was good, and the logic said Fircoal was scummy, and yet he didn't find Fircoal scummy. There's something missing there. But sometimes I forget that not everyone has such faith in logic as I do.

...Unless you're disregarding or de-emphasising logic based on non-logical factors, such as instinct and judgement?

That is exactly what I'm doing.

Edited quote, which I hope succinctly captures the issue here. VitaminR could be consistent in believing the logic that implies Fircoal is scum is solid, and yet not believing Fircoal is scum,

if

he doesn't hold much truck with logic itself as a decision-making tool in this context.

Now, I don't

like

this resolution a great deal, but it

does

resolve the sticking-point I had. Time to re-read I think.

[theopor_COD]

I'll re-read this at work tonight and hopefully post some worthwhile then.

[Thesp]

I don't buy the VitaminR wagon at all. I'm also a little surprised at you, Seol, for seemingly trying to equivocate likelihoods to the firmness of logic. The argument isn't that someone is necessarily scum under the "doth protest too much" tell, it's that scum are more likely to exhibit that behavior. It appears that VitaminR does not think scum are significantly more likely to exhibit that behavior. It looks like a mountain out of a molehill there to me. The lack of an unvote is unusual to me as well, after "it does resolve the sticking-point I had".

FOS: Seol.

I'm still happy with my vote on theopor_COD.

[Seol]

I don't buy the VitaminR wagon at all. I'm also a little surprised at you, Seol, for seemingly trying to equivocate likelihoods to the firmness of logic. The argument isn't that someone is necessarily scum under the "doth protest too much" tell, it's that scum are more likely to exhibit that behavior. It appears that VitaminR does not think scum are significantly more likely to exhibit that behavior. It looks like a mountain out of a molehill there to me.

I think you were misunderstanding my point. All I was saying was that VitaminR's reasoning and his conclusions and position should be related. I'm not trying to equivocate anything to anything else, I was simply saying that he wasn't being consistent. If he doesn't believe it applies, I don't have a problem with that,

unless he's representing that he does think it applies

.

The lack of an unvote is unusual to me as well, after "it does resolve the sticking-point I had".

FOS: Seol.

It resolves the sticking-point I was having with understanding what VitaminR was trying to say - now I feel I at least understand the position VitaminR is representing. I also said I didn't like the resolution. Just because my opinion of VitaminR is improved over what it was doesn't mean he's all the way back to square 1 again, but I'm due to re-read and see if there's anything more significant that's worth following.

[theopor_COD]

I've read the Soel/VR discussion and it's gone totally over my head so I'll re-read it again later and see if any of it makes the current situation anymore interesting.

I will say I find this quote strange here prior to the discussion, appreciate it VR, but strange all the same.

Theopor, it may sound definite, but I just don't think you're scum. I don't know why, because you're not really making a great deal of sense.

Seperately Avinyl's input isn't overly helpful, for a start I'm pretty sure I put Azkar at lynch -1 not Fircoal and I think he needs to explain his reasoning for voting VR a bit more. Plus his vote below suggests he wants to hammer me but is afraid to do so because he'll become suspect number one tomorrow.

I am sorry about my disappearance, i have been ill, but now i am here.
From what i have read, i think theopor_COD, Fircoal and VitaminR seems suspicious. Fircoal defended Azkar with great fervor, and then got very upset over putting Azkar at Lynch -1. Theopor_COD just seems supicious, and VitaminR does not stand for what he says.
I would vote theopor_COD if he was not at lynch -1, so i will

vote VitaminR

.

As such

vote avinyl

[Fircoal]

I've read the Soel/VR discussion and it's gone totally over my head so I'll re-read it again later and see if any of it makes the current situation anymore interesting.

I will say I find this quote strange here prior to the discussion, appreciate it VR, but strange all the same.

Theopor, it may sound definite, but I just don't think you're scum. I don't know why, because you're not really making a great deal of sense.

Seperately Avinyl's input isn't overly helpful, for a start I'm pretty sure I put Azkar at lynch -1 not Fircoal and I think he needs to explain his reasoning for voting VR a bit more. Plus his vote below suggests he wants to hammer me but is afraid to do so because he'll become suspect number one tomorrow.

I am sorry about my disappearance, i have been ill, but now i am here.
From what i have read, i think theopor_COD, Fircoal and VitaminR seems suspicious. Fircoal defended Azkar with great fervor, and then got very upset over putting Azkar at Lynch -1. Theopor_COD just seems supicious, and VitaminR does not stand for what he says.
I would vote theopor_COD if he was not at lynch -1, so i will

vote VitaminR

.

As such

vote avinyl

I agree, avinyl's post wasn't that good I think I'd like more of an explanation. Also, my lack of comment has because I can barely understand the Soel/ Vitamin R debate.

[theopor_COD]

I agree, avinyl's post wasn't that good I think I'd like more of an explanation. Also, my lack of comment has because I can barely understand the Soel/ Vitamin R debate.

I'm glad I'm not the only one

[Fircoal]

I agree, avinyl's post wasn't that good I think I'd like more of an explanation. Also, my lack of comment has because I can barely understand the Soel/ Vitamin R debate.

I'm glad I'm not the only one

Same here.

[VitaminR]

The problem is that it wasn't a poorly executed attack. I see it as good logic and I could have easily used it as a platform to attack Fircoal from.

Now, Fircoal's certainly guilty of making a useless circular defence, but I don't

really

see how it becomes an assertion of pro-townieness. Maybe I'm reading things from a slightly different perspective, but the first defence from Fircoal came accross to me as, "It didn't seem suspicious to me." The second defence just restated the first. It was a non-defence, really. He doesn't explain

why

he didn't find it suspicious, just that he didn't.

I agree with you. The point is that a non-defence

is

an assertion of pro-townness. The reason why it is a non-defence is because we assume that every player only defends posts when they didn't find it suspicious. That is the assumption of townieness.

Fircoal and theopor, did the summary help at all? I could try again.

Upon re-reading, Seol has become my nr. 1 suspect. He has focused pretty strongly on me and it bothers me that he has mostly only commented on the other players in this game when asked specifically about one of them.

Something that stands out is how his vote for me has been absolute. He doesn't FOS or indicate any change of direction or in suspicions. Firstly, that movement is crucial in the opening phases of a game. Secondly, it moves the debate above a level of direct relevance. Without any apparent consequences to his official position in the game, whether or not a point of his is acknowledged or refuted becomes irrelevant.

Avinyl is probably nr. 2. I agree with theopor's questions about his vote. On the whole, though, he has not posted that much and I can't really say I've seen enough of him to get a read on him.

Vote: Seol

[Fircoal]

Hmm, I'd say I still suspect Theopor_Cod the most, but my suspicion for him has been going down.
AFter that it would be Avinyl, and Seol.
Then Vitamin R and Thesp.
Then Azkar
Then Me.

If I'm understanding the Seol and VitaminR debate then I'm gets suspicion. VitiminR, made a good point in the last post, which made him see suspicious.

Oddly, the debate I can't understand come in a newbie game of all game.

[Seol]

Something that stands out is how his vote for me has been absolute. He doesn't FOS or indicate any change of direction or in suspicions. Firstly, that movement is crucial in the opening phases of a game.

Crucial, you say? As in, it's suspicious if I keep my vote on the person I suspect most, instead of moving it about?

Secondly, it moves the debate above a level of direct relevance. Without any apparent consequences to his official position in the game, whether or not a point of his is acknowledged or refuted becomes irrelevant.

My core argument - that you were arguing a point which you disagreed with - still stands. It hasn't been refuted. If at the end of the debate, my core argument still stands, why on earth would you expect my position to change?

Do I think it's a massive strike against VitaminR? No, not really, but it's still a strike against him. I didn't

intend

to get into a massive debate on it with VitaminR, I've just been clarifying my original point and explaining the rationale behind it.

Re: being focussed on you - yes, that happens sometimes when I'm in a big argument, I concentrate on resolving that issue. Like I said, I need to re-read - I haven't yet taken the time to do so.

[VitaminR]

I'm going to lump these questions together:

Crucial, you say? As in, it's suspicious if I keep my vote on the person I suspect most, instead of moving it about?

My core argument - that you were arguing a point which you disagreed with - still stands. It hasn't been refuted. If at the end of the debate, my core argument still stands, why on earth would you expect my position to change?

I'd expect to hear that your position hasn't changed. I'd expect some sort of attempt to put it into perspective with regards to the rest of the game. Your point is only worth as much as how it relates to your suspicions of other people. That is what I meant. 'Movement' was an ill-chosen word. 'Fluidity of suspicion' would perhaps have been more accurate (also: it sounds fancy).

[Seol]

I'd expect to hear that your position hasn't changed.

Now, I don't like this resolution a great deal, but it does resolve the sticking-point I had.

It resolves the sticking-point I was having with understanding what VitaminR was trying to say - now I feel I at least understand the position VitaminR is representing. I also said I didn't like the resolution. Just because my opinion of VitaminR is improved over what it was doesn't mean he's all the way back to square 1 again

I'd expect some sort of attempt to put it into perspective with regards to the rest of the game. point is only worth as much as how it relates to your suspicions of other people.

but I'm due to re-read and see if there's anything more significant that's worth following.

[Avinyl]

Seperately Avinyl's input isn't overly helpful, for a start I'm pretty sure I put Azkar at lynch -1 not Fircoal and I think he needs to explain his reasoning for voting VR a bit more. Plus his vote below suggests he wants to hammer me but is afraid to do so because he'll become suspect number one tomorrow.

I am sorry about my disappearance, i have been ill, but now i am here.
From what i have read, i think theopor_COD, Fircoal and VitaminR seems suspicious. Fircoal defended Azkar with great fervor, and then got very upset over putting Azkar at Lynch -1. Theopor_COD just seems supicious, and VitaminR does not stand for what he says.
I would vote theopor_COD if he was not at lynch -1, so i will

vote VitaminR

.

As such

vote avinyl

I know i definitely meant to write that theopor_COD put Azkar at lynch -1. Why did i write Fircoal? I really have to sleep more.
I didn't want to put the last vote on you, not because it would seem suspicious, but because i don't want this day to end too soon. My suspicions of VitaminR are that he was arguing a point which he disagreed with. It's also that he just feels suspicious. I am very bad at deciding who seems most suspicious, so i usually just go with what feels right. I am not 100% sure that he is mafia, not even 5%, but i have to vote someone.

[VitaminR]

Now, I don't like this resolution a great deal, but it does resolve the sticking-point I had.

It resolves the sticking-point I was having with understanding what VitaminR was trying to say - now I feel I at least understand the position VitaminR is representing. I also said I didn't like the resolution. Just because my opinion of VitaminR is improved over what it was doesn't mean he's all the way back to square 1 again

I did see those. I don't know, it seems to me to very much relate to the situation inside the debate. I get the feeling that through the rhetoric of the discussion your vote moved into a position where it appeared out of consideration, and, therefore, exempt from scrutiny.

but I'm due to re-read and see if there's anything more significant that's worth following.

I don't find the fact that you say you need a re-read to give an opinion on other players in any way redeeming. That suggests to me that you need to construe an acceptable impression of their behaviour.

[VitaminR]

My suspicions of VitaminR are that he was arguing a point which he disagreed with. It's also that he just feels suspicious. I am very bad at deciding who seems most suspicious, so I usually just go with what feels right. I am not 100% sure that he is mafia, not even 5%, but i have to vote someone.

That actually makes your stance a lot more understandable to me.

[Seol]

I did see those. I don't know, it seems to me to very much relate to the situation inside the debate.

I'm confused - what are you asking here?

I thought you were saying here:

I'd expect to hear that your position hasn't changed.

That at the end of the discussion, you'd expect me to state what my position was. I was merely pointing out that I did that, and to suggest otherwise is misrepresentation.

I get the feeling that through the rhetoric of the discussion your vote moved into a position where it appeared out of consideration, and, therefore, exempt from scrutiny.

Again, I'm not sure I totally understand you here. Are you saying that I wasn't scrutinising my own vote, or that it was exempt from scrutiny by others? Ultimately, I voted you for something that you did, that I consider suspicious. If you want to challenge the reasons why I consider it suspicious, then I'll scrutinise my vote. If you want to challenge whether or not you actually did it, then I'll scrutinise my vote. But if you accept that you did it, and you tacitly accept my argument as to why I consider it suspicious, then why would you expect me to scrutinise my vote, at least as a consequence of the debate?

I don't find the fact that you say you need a re-read to give an opinion on other players in any way redeeming. That suggests to me that you need to construe an acceptable impression of their behaviour.

It's not meant to be redeeming in and of itself, simply to say that I recognise the need to put it into perspective. I've been following the game, and I've commented on anything that's caught my attention. Not much has, or where it has it's been raised already. That means that just following the game is not giving me a sufficiently strong read on most of the players.

[Seol]

Enough procrastination, time to talk about everyone

else

.

theopor_COD - Inconsistency re: "foolish", as Azkar points out:

I still find theopor's actions bizarre. Earlier he said:

I foolishly in some ways thought Azkar's over defence to the random org vote was scummy, however my assessment of Fircoal and Azkar still fits, I'm pretty happy the way things are. Things at least are developing.

When Seol asked him to elaborate on why he thought his suspicion of my defence was scummy, he said:

First question re- the foolish vote on Azkar, it was pretty foolish because the 2 mafia could have come along and hammered him, unless one was already voting him and the other didn't want to raise suspicion, looking back I shouldn't have jumped on the bandwagon especially with Fircoal's first vote being a random one and the argument hardly concrete.

Doesn't really seem like he answered the question at all. Instead, he's changed his tune yet again. It was no longer foolish to find my defence scummy, now it was foolish to place a lynch -1 vote on.

That falls under the same loose category of what I was on VitaminR for, as the reply which doesn't actually address the question suggests theopor doesn't actually know what he meant by "foolish", which in turn means he didn't actually mean it in the first place.

I'm also not terribly keen on this:

Seperately Avinyl's input isn't overly helpful, for a start I'm pretty sure I put Azkar at lynch -1 not Fircoal and I think he needs to explain his reasoning for voting VR a bit more. Plus his vote below suggests he wants to hammer me but is afraid to do so because he'll become suspect number one tomorrow.

I am sorry about my disappearance, i have been ill, but now i am here.
From what i have read, i think theopor_COD, Fircoal and VitaminR seems suspicious. Fircoal defended Azkar with great fervor, and then got very upset over putting Azkar at Lynch -1. Theopor_COD just seems supicious, and VitaminR does not stand for what he says.
I would vote theopor_COD if he was not at lynch -1, so i will

vote VitaminR.

I can see that avinyl says he would vote you would it not lynch you. That suggests to me he's suspicious of you but

doesn't

want to hammer you, not that he does. Your attributed motivation - part of the reason for your vote - is pure speculation, and furthermore speculation that doesn't follow very well from what was said.

At this point I'm more suspicious of theopor_COD than VitaminR. Given that I'm not the only person not voting him to consider him suspicious, and he's on three votes - or to put it another way, would it not lead to a lynch, five of the six other players would be voting him right now - I think a claim is probably in order.

unvote

Fircoal I'm having difficulty understanding. No offence meant, but is English not your first language?

If I'm understanding the Seol and VitaminR debate then I'm gets suspicion. VitiminR, made a good point in the last post, which made him see suspicious.

What do you mean here? I read it as:

"If I'm understanding the Seol/VitaminR debate, then it makes me suspicious. VitaminR made a good point in the last post which makes [Seol] seem suspicious".

If I'm misunderstanding you, please clarify. If not, it would be helpful if you highlight the point you agree with.

Avinyl is remaining pretty tight-lipped, and hasn't really contributed anything new to the thread. I'm a little concerned about his lack of citing any new reasoning and simply citing my own arguments against VitaminR, without ever supplying any thoughts of his own - this could constitute an Appeal to Authority, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily scummy (it's also typical newbie behaviour). Particularly, re: theopor (the person he says he would be voting were he not on three already) he hasn't cited

any

reasoning whatsoever.

Thesp and Azkar are both behaving rationally, I don't disagree with any of their arguments (except of course where they disagree with me ), and I don't have any reason to be suspicious of them at this point.

[Fircoal]

Fircoal I'm having difficulty understanding. No offence meant, but is English not your first language?

If I'm understanding the Seol and VitaminR debate then I'm gets suspicion. VitiminR, made a good point in the last post, which made him see suspicious.

What do you mean here? I read it as:

"If I'm understanding the Seol/VitaminR debate, then it makes me suspicious. VitaminR made a good point in the last post which makes [Seol] seem suspicious".

If I'm misunderstanding you, please clarify. If not, it would be helpful if you highlight the point you agree with.

No, English is my first language, I just word things in a weird way. Also, yes your correct about what I said. But I don't know if I could pull out the points because I don't seem to understand the debate that much, but I think this was the quote:

Something that stands out is how his vote for me has been absolute. He doesn't FOS or indicate any change of direction or in suspicions. Firstly, that movement is crucial in the opening phases of a game. Secondly, it moves the debate above a level of direct relevance. Without any apparent consequences to his official position in the game, whether or not a point of his is acknowledged or refuted becomes irrelevant.

Seol, I agree with you on your suspicions on Theopor_Cod, and lack of them on Azkar. Though I think Thesp is lurking to much to be cleared. Avinyl is also scummy to me in the same ways that he is scummy to Seol.
Seol and VitiminR, have confused me too much to think much about them, besides that they both could be scum, but not with each other.

[theopor_COD]

Ok I've been doing some heavy reading this morning, mainly berating my own play, I've read the whole thread twice and I've read the individual posts (my own mainly!!!).

As such I can say I've played appalingly, this is my first game on mafiascum so hence the newbie stupidity, doesn't excuse the way I've played thus far though, i'm letting myself down but mostly the rest of you, townies that is, the scum must be chuckling away.

Lets go from the start, I was late to the thread and thus missed the opening exchanges, my first post was four days after things kicked off and then I only skimmed the posts and the interchange between VR, Azkar and Fircoal. My first real input with the third vote on Azkar is bascially crap, I voted him because of his defence of Fircoal but looking at it in reflection it even looks a nothing sort of argument, post 38 is utter rubbish, all I can say in my defence is at the time I looked at VR's argument, followed his idea of thinking, and assumed that Azkar was acting scummily, nowhere near a good enough reason for the third vote. I've read a couple of other newbie games mainly 298 and 302 and the third vote so early is scummy, therefore I can totally appreciate the votes back on me from Azkar, Fircoal and Thesp - I'd have done the same if it was the other way around.

Moving on since that third vote, I'd become tied to the idea of Azkar being the scummiest, only reason I can give for that is that I didn't want to appear as foolish and go back on my original vote for him, trusting myself to be right, looking back that's utter crap and I should have bit the bullet like a week ago and told everyone that my play here was crap, after re-reading the thread I actually view Azkar as the most likely to be town. Azkar asks here why I think he's scum

Btw, Azkar, what did you make of theopor's vote?

Well it sucked, obviously

He

did

put me at 1-to-lynch, as Fircoal's pointed out, but I think that you're right that we weren't really in a lot of danger of someone hammering it on page two of the thread.

Other than that, I don't know. I guess I'd like to hear a little more from theopor. He's

convinced

I'm scum, but didn't give us more than a one sentence explanation. The fact that it's his only significant contribution to this game makes me feel like it was more bandwagoning than real conviction.

Of course, I'm biased. The vote was for me, and I don't like it when people vote for me .

My reply to this is once again bollocks, I'm sticking to my guns but not looking at the wider picture, I'm just looking at my own alignment seeing the three votes on me and automatically thinking Azkar's the one in the wrong, where in reality I am. I know that sounds stupid but looking back that's the only reason I'm still going out to accuse him, 66 is the same rubbish. (Infact I don't think I've posted anything that comes across townie yet!).

I guess the unvote is me finally coming to my senses but not having the guts to explain my earlier voting patterns it looks scummy aswell, to be honest I'm amazed I haven't been lynched yet, I deserve to have been.

Anyway I can't say much else apart from that, foolish, stupidity whatever, i've made a complete ass of myself so far and only hope I can redeem myself . . . and how you may ask . . . well I have an inkling on a scum, maybe wrong but it's about time I offered the town more than the crap I've come out with yet.

Let's look at the way I've played as Soel says 5 of 6 people would be voting if possible and obv a claim's warranted, I'm not going to not yet but will if required,

however one person sticks out for his defence of me

, now I'm asking myself why, surely if anyone views my posts they must find me scummy and prob 90% mafia, however one person doesn't the only real reason I can offer for this is that he knows I'm town and thus wants to appear that way when the inevitable lynch happens, take these quotes for instance,

remember here I think i'm incredibly scummy, Azkar does, Fircoal does, Thesp does, Soel does and Avinyl does

- mind the last two on that are only recent due to postings. I also find the way VR wants to get everyone's opinion on me him fishing for a reason to vote me which won't look so scummy when I lynch - Thing is way I've played I'd expect everyone to vote for me and I could understand it, so I just think VR is scum mainly because I know I'm not despite my awful play so far.


Fishing here . .

I would definitely like to hear more from Fircoal about his theopor vote, though.

And here . .

Btw, Azkar, what did you make of theopor's vote?

Definately not going to hammer, why not it would make sense in my eyes way I've played.

That puts theopor at lynch -1. I think we've had enough discussion here about premature hammering that I can trust no one will do so?

I'm definitely not going to hammer him.

Argh... now I'm doubting Azkar again.

Fishing again . . . just feel he's looking for someone to give him the go ahead to hammer.

Seol, what do you think of theopor_COD?

I'd like to hear this too.

Azkar, you make some good points, but I'm just not sold on the wagon. I don't see it.

Again defending me, even after I've made no more sense

Theopor, it may sound definite, but I just don't think you're scum. I don't know why, because you're not really making a great deal of sense.

Then goes and votes and accuses two seperate ppl, wtf.

Upon re-reading, Seol has become my nr. 1 suspect. He has focused pretty strongly on me and it bothers me that he has mostly only commented on the other players in this game when asked specifically about one of them.

Avinyl is probably nr. 2. I agree with theopor's questions about his vote. On the whole, though, he has not posted that much and I can't really say I've seen enough of him to get a read on him.

Vote: Seol

Anyway to conclude, I've made a complete ass of myself but I still think there's plenty of time for things to turnaround. Before I sign off

Vote Vitamin R

[theopor_COD]

Guess I should

unvote, vote Vitamin R