Newbie 310: It's All Over -- WOO-HOO!

[VitaminR]

Yes and I do definitely think Thesp is likely to be pro-town. A big contributing factor, however, is also that I don't think an Azkar-Thesp pair or a Seol-Thesp pair is likely from the way they've interacted.

What interactions?

Seol-Thesp: Thesp's attacks on Seol, mainly.
Azkar-Thesp: Thesp essentially just waved away the Fircoal-Azkar thing, commenting on it afterwards. If they were scumbuddies, he would not dismiss a case that was that prominent so easily. If Azkar turns up scum, it is too damning a mark on his record. He's too experienced a player to make that kind of mistake.

[VitaminR]

Hmm. I'm still fairly fixated on theopor_COD, and I'm a little surprised at the lack of claim from him after essentially being told to do so (rightly, I think) by Seol. I don't agree with the VitaminR hate at all.

Mixed response to this post.

Pro-townish: He doesn't capitalise on the wagon building against me, which is an easy route to follow.
Scummy: Theopor is at 2 now (Fircoal unvoted), I don't think he need claim. Also, I don't the like theopor wagon at all.

[Fircoal]

Well discounting Thesp, it would be Seol, Aviynl, and Vitamin R. These are what I think are the possible scum combos.

VitaminR/ Aviynl
Seol/ Aviynl
Seol/ Azkar

Seol are in 2, and so is Aviynl, Thesp could be added to Seol, or Aviynl to make another combo. So I think that the most likely scum pair is Aviynl and Seol.

[Fircoal]

Vote: Seol

I feel I can trust Theopor_Cod, Akbar, and Thesp a little bit. I'm almost sure that Akbar is pro-town. If we lynch Seol, and he's a townie, I can see that akbar is most likely pro-town, and will trust him more, but if he is scum. We'll be down 1 scum.

[VitaminR]

Does that mean you'll follow me on Seol?

[VitaminR]

Yay!

[Fircoal]

I would like to hear input from Theopor_Cod, Seol, and Avinyl. I've heard what Theopor said, but a little more has happened.

[theopor_COD]

I'm not convinced on Soel but I'd like to hear his reaction to my thoughts on Vitamin.

[Seol]

Wow, a lot to respond to. I have two posts - one principally responding to VitaminR, and one principally responding to theopor. Theopor post will follow.

Seol, I agree with you on your suspicions on Theopor_Cod, and lack of them on Azkar. Though I think Thesp is lurking to much to be cleared. Avinyl is also scummy to me in the same ways that he is scummy to Seol.

I wouldn't say I consider Thesp cleared, but then again I wouldn't consider him lurking either. He's definitely not contributing as much as I'd like or expect, but he is here and keeping us abreast of his current position.

Heh. I'm so going to get myself lynched...

Don't fault yourself if you end up lynching me, I screwed up as an IC here, I think.

I don't really expect anyone to follow me at this point.

My Seol vote was way too late and at a point where my credibility in this game was pretty much gone anyway.

That's an

awful

lot of sympathy plays there...

Seol: he only focused on me and I felt he was avoiding your wagon. Also, from his earlier comment about you (which I will quote below this) I thought he saw you in the same way and I wanted to see if he would stick to that. I find the fact that he hasn't pretty scummy.

I don't have a good handle on theopor_COD yet. He's wagon-happy, and says he's confident in his position, but I don't think his reasoning as I understand it is compelling. I'd say he looks scummy in a vacuum, but it's not in the least atypical for newbies nowadays.

Hmm... that was in response to my question, wasn't it? Then I'm remembering it wrong.

The one you quoted was because I felt he was focusing on me, asking him for an opinion after the debate was because I wanted to see whether or not he would do the convenient thing and change his position.

Seol, what do you think of theopor_COD?

I'd like to hear this too.

Azkar, you make some good points, but I'm just not sold on the wagon. I don't see it.

Those are the quotes you're referring to, in the order you referenced them, right?

Are you confused about what happened here? Because bearing in mind the chronology of what happened, your comments make no sense.

"Resolve a sticking point" seemed quite vague to me. I didn't read it as a clear statement of your position.

Ah, well, the combination of the full comment ("Now, I don't like this resolution a great deal, but it does resolve the sticking-point I had") and the lack of unvote seemed to be a reasonably clear statement to me. Are you arguing that it was intended to be vague, or that it wasn't intended to be a statement of position?

I did not blindly agree with you in the debate and I presented explanations that should cause a change in perspective. As you yourself indicated, your opinion did improve. As a result, you should have scrutinised your vote.

Your explanations

should

result in a change of perspective? Surely that's up to me to judge? And yes, my opinion improved, relative to the point where it appeared to me you were flatly contradicting yourself in every post. I was still suspicious of you, and (prior to the re-read which I needed to get a handle on the rest of the game) I didn't have any firm suspicions on anyone else. So I kept my vote on you.

As for the Azkar wagon, Seol didn't comment on it as it was going on. He attacked me when it was winding down.

Azkar-Thesp: Thesp essentially just waved away the Fircoal-Azkar thing, commenting on it afterwards. If they were scumbuddies, he would not dismiss a case that was that prominent so easily. If Azkar turns up scum, it is too damning a mark on his record. He's too experienced a player to make that kind of mistake.

I'm not seeing the difference. I ignored the wagon (along with the rest of the game - not that that's justifiable, just trying to put it in context), which therefore links me and Azkar. Thesp, who actually was here, was ignoring the wagon, and it's a sign they're

not

linked... except that if Azkar is scum, it's a black mark against Thesp (i.e., it's a sign they're linked... if it suits you).

You're taking the same behaviour and saying it means X in one case and not-X in another. Isn't this just a case of you interpreting the evidence in whatever manner is most convenient for you?

[Seol]

Re: theopor -

Ok I've been doing some heavy reading this morning, mainly berating my own play, I've read the whole thread twice and I've read the individual posts (my own mainly!!!).

As such I can say I've played appalingly, this is my first game on mafiascum so hence the newbie stupidity, doesn't excuse the way I've played thus far though, i'm letting myself down but mostly the rest of you, townies that is, the scum must be chuckling away.

Anyway I can't say much else apart from that, foolish, stupidity whatever, i've made a complete ass of myself so far and only hope I can redeem myself . . . and how you may ask . . . well I have an inkling on a scum, maybe wrong but it's about time I offered the town more than the crap I've come out with yet.

to be honest I'm amazed I haven't been lynched yet, I deserve to have been.

surely if anyone views my posts they must find me scummy and prob 90% mafia

remember here I think i'm incredibly scummy

is way I've played I'd expect everyone to vote for me and I could understand it, so I just think VR is scum mainly because I know I'm not despite my awful play so far.

Sympathy plays definitely seem to be the flavour of the month here...

Basically, the sum total of your post is you saying "yep, I'm scummy, I've been talking crap all game, but VitaminR doesn't think I'm scum so he's scummy".

I'm not convinced on Soel but I'd like to hear his reaction to my thoughts on Vitamin.

I don't buy it. It basically boils down to "Why didn't he pursue me when I thought I was suspicious?". There's a number of reasons for him to do so, some which imply he's town, others of which imply he's scum. Trying to argue motivation from something like that leads you into WIFOM-style reasoning.

I'd only skimmed your post and I thought I'd have more to say about it, before I read it properly. Am I missing anything relevant here? Because, if not, my opinion of you just worsened.

vote: theopor_COD

, as the only reason I wasn't voting you previously was that it would be lynch. I still think a claim is appropriate.

VitaminR is not far off level with theopor.

[Fircoal]

You lowered my opinion about Theopor_Cod, Seol. This makes it interesting. Seol, what do you think about a combo so you and Azkar as scum?

[Seol]

Well, I know I'm not scum, so I know I'm not scum with Azkar.

[Fircoal]

Well, I know I'm not scum, so I know I'm not scum with Azkar.

Well then what are your opinions about Azkar?

[theopor_COD]

Soel -

I could hardly play any worse eh!

It may well be looking for sympathy but I didn't set out for sympathy more so trying to explain why I've first voted for Azkar and then stubbornly kept up my argument against him, I've re-read the thread a couple of times and since have realised how weak my argument against him is/was.

As for Vitamin R, it surprises me that he hasn't even discussed the possibility that i'm scum, I haven't seen one post from him that says "yep theoper sure looks scummy". Everyone else has right?

I don't really know what else you want me to explain I find VR's lack of an attack scummy I guess, although he since has made a further defence for it. There's not much more I can say my argument before against Azkar was weak and since then today I've tried to reevaulate everyone elses play, VR just struck me as the one who stood out most.

A claim - well I'm a townie nothing more.

[Seol]

Well then what are your opinions about Azkar?

He's bottom of my suspicions, which are currently:

Most scummy:

theopor
VitaminR
<big gap>
Avinyl
Fircoal
Thesp
Azkar

[Fircoal]

ok here is my list:

Seol
VitaminR
Avinyl
<huge gap>
Theopor_Cod
Thesp
<big gap>
Azkar
Fircoal

[theopor_COD]

Want mine -

VitaminR
<big gap>
Soel
Thesp
Avinyl
<big gap>
Fircoal
Azkar
Theopor

[VitaminR]

Nobody hammer theopor. He is pro-town.

Seol is scum trying to push two mislynches (theopor and me). He is setting up two distinctly separate wagons.

Also, he forced a claim from theopor on a third vote when there has been no indication of anyone wanting to put on a fourth vote. This allows someone who normally wouldn't have theopor to go "ah well, at worst he's a townie" and hammer him.

I have to go to university now, but I'll go through Seol's post in more detail this afternoon.

[VitaminR]

Also, (and I'm adding this as I eat breakfast) Seol really had no right to ask for a claim. Thesp is still in need of a re-read and he could, for instance, realistically switch to Seol.

Azkar, whose vote it is also based on, hasn't posted in ages and hasn't even acknowledged theopor's defence yet!

[Fircoal]

Mod, can I have a prod on Azkar?

[theopor_COD]

and Avinyl whilst your at it.

I'm thinking Vitamin is making some sense there with his theory on Soel, I'm not overly sure if it clears Vitamin in my mind though, however I'm going to

unvote

. More conversation the better.

[Seol]

Nobody hammer theopor. He is pro-town.

You're stating that like it's fact.

What makes you so sure?

Seol is scum trying to push two mislynches (theopor and me).

I'm trying to lynch people who are behaving like scum.

He is setting up two distinctly separate wagons.

I

set up

the theopor wagon?

Also, he forced a claim from theopor on a third vote when there has been no indication of anyone wanting to put on a fourth vote. This allows someone who normally wouldn't have theopor to go "ah well, at worst he's a townie" and hammer him.

Avinyl said he considered theopor the most suspicious, but didn't want to lynch him yet. That's normally the time to be asking for a claim.

Also, (and I'm adding this as I eat breakfast) Seol really had no right to ask for a claim. Thesp is still in need of a re-read and he could, for instance, realistically switch to Seol.

Thesp's most recent post:

Hmm.

I'm still fairly fixated on theopor_COD, and I'm a little surprised at the lack of claim from him after essentially being told to do so (rightly, I think) by Seol.

I don't agree with the VitaminR hate at all.

There are a number of likelihoods still out there, and I feel bad for saying I still need a proper re-read, even though I won't get the next chance to do so until Tuesday night.

Emphasis mine. Seems pretty clear to me that Thesp, while he acknowledged the need to look over the thread, was actively supporting the claim request.

I'm thinking Vitamin is making some sense there with his theory on Soel, I'm not overly sure if it clears Vitamin in my mind though, however I'm going to unvote. More conversation the better.

What theory? "He's scum and he's attacking me"?

[Avinyl]

I am here, no need for a prod. I have to reread the last pages, I will share my suspicions then.

[VitaminR]

Right, I'm back from uni. I'll address Seol's latest post and then dig into his earlier ones.

You're stating that like it's fact.

What makes you so sure?

I've already answered that question a number of times. His play is illogical, but not manipulative. An example would be him unvoting me, he doesn't need to do that at all. I would be a convenient target to lessen the pressure on him.

The same thing goes for him messing up reasons for voting Azkar earlier in the game. He could have got away with hiding behind my reasons. The fact that he confused his reasons is strange, but it does not serve a purpose for scum.

I'm trying to lynch people who are behaving like scum.

I don't think you are. You are voting people who are not behaving like scum.

I

set up

the theopor wagon?

That was a fairly rushed post. Picking at my phrasing has very little use, you know.

This is what I meant:
You are setting up justification for two distinctly separate wagons. This allows you to switch freely between them. You even said that we are almost level in scumminess. That means you don't have to stick to one vote. If, for instance, you'd said one of us was more suspicious, you would have been bound to pursuing that person.

Avinyl said he considered theopor the most suspicious, but didn't want to lynch him yet. That's normally the time to be asking for a claim.

Emphasis mine. Seems pretty clear to me that Thesp, while he acknowledged the need to look over the thread, was actively supporting the claim request.

Avinyl has barely posted, and has definitely not commented on theopor's defence. Azkar has not posted since theopor posted that defence. Thesp didn't even know how many votes theopor had.

You got a quick and easy claim off a newbie and it was scummy.

What theory? "He's scum and he's attacking me"?

Seol, let's not devolve into insults. I've made my position clear and attempted to explain my thoughts as fully as I can.

In game terms, we're at each other's throats, but I'd like not to breed any ill-feeling.

[VitaminR]

Sympathy Plays

When I care about a game, I'm more likely to post what I feel. There is nothing inherently scummy about posting an emotional response. Town and scum are just as likely to do it. It is only scummy when it's the only response. Theopor hasn't done that. I haven't done that. Citing that list looks impressive, but the quotes are wholly irrelevant. It simply makes it look like there is this big body of scummy quotes as evidence for your suspicions.

Reactions to Seol

Ah, well, the combination of the full comment ("Now, I don't like this resolution a great deal, but it does resolve the sticking-point I had") and the lack of unvote seemed to be a reasonably clear statement to me. Are you arguing that it was intended to be vague, or that it wasn't intended to be a statement of position?

It seemed pretty ambiguous to me. I think you were intentionally vague in order to not give a statement of position.

Your explanations

should

result in a change of perspective? Surely that's up to me to judge? And yes, my opinion improved, relative to the point where it appeared to me you were flatly contradicting yourself in every post.

Heh.

I meant "should" as in assuming that your position had changed, which you indicated.

I was still suspicious of you, and (prior to the re-read which I needed to get a handle on the rest of the game) I didn't have any firm suspicions on anyone else. So I kept my vote on you.

What I have a problem is that none of that was clear at the time.

I'm not seeing the difference. I ignored the wagon (along with the rest of the game - not that that's justifiable, just trying to put it in context), which therefore links me and Azkar. Thesp, who actually was here, was ignoring the wagon, and it's a sign they're

not

linked... except that if Azkar is scum, it's a black mark against Thesp (i.e., it's a sign they're linked... if it suits you).

There's a big difference. You avoided the wagon, you didn't ignore it at all (you commented on it quite definitively when did you post).

I don't get your last point at all. I specifically said that it wouldn't be a black mark against Thesp.

A Paragraph on Avinyl

There's another reason why I think he's pro-town. It relies on the assumption that Seol is scum, but that is fairly fortified in my mind. Avinyl joined Seol on the wagon on me, citing his reasons. That amount of deference is too obvious for scum, I think.

Seol's Theopor post

Seol's opinion can essentially be boiled down to this quote, I think:

Basically, the sum total of your post is you saying "yep, I'm scummy, I've been talking crap all game, but VitaminR doesn't think I'm scum so he's scummy".

That's not true. Theopor is voting me because of how definite I am about it. That's not a bad reason to be suspicious of me.