Newbie 310: It's All Over -- WOO-HOO!

[VitaminR]

I don't think the call for the claim was in the least bit suspicious. I don't think scum would be more likely to make that request than town would be at all.

Do you agree that it wasn't warranted at the time, though?

Seol, VitaminR, do you think scum are more likely to make sympathy plays than town? (I don't mean to limit the question to only those two, anyone else with experience on the matter is welcome to weigh in.)

Nope, pro-town players are just as likely to get frustrated over being attacked as scum are, if not more likely because they're not supposed to get themselves into that situation. It does depend on the player, however, and how they deal with different situations. The atmosphere of a game is also an important variable.

I know that I'm more likely to post them when I'm pro-town (I try to shy away from dishonest emotion), for instance.

[VitaminR]

Thesp, could you explain this in more detail?

After a mildly-thorough re-read, I think it's time for me to change my tune.

Unvote: thopor_cod, Vote: Fircoal.

His approach seems as though it would be more advantageous coming from scum than from town, and doesn't feel genuine to me. I'm still leery of Seol, and still don't agree with the VitaminR hate. I had a feeling of a Fircoal/Seol pairing, but I have doubts of that after a cursory view of votecounts.

And address this:

Fircoal what do you make of Thesp's point?

I don't know why he thinks I'm scum, and how he can clear VitaminR, with the proof we have.

Also, Fircoal, I'd still like to know what proof you meant.

[Fircoal]

Sorry, forgot about it. I meant that there wasn't that much proof, by the proof I meant the fact there is no proof basically it says.

how can he clear VitaminR, without the proof that would be needed.

Also, Symayth plays, would be done by either side.

[gorckat]

Just checking in- I had to take my wife to the ER with some hideous stomach flu late Saturday, and as she was getting out of there Sunday evening, I went down myself. I think the worst is over, but I feel as if I've been beaten with an aluminum baseball bat.

I do have my printout of the game, and had gotten halfway through it (damn Seol and VR for having a logic debate that I had to take in slowly :p) when things went sour here. I am going to get through it today...I hope to post something substantial this evening.

[VitaminR]

No worries, take your time.

[MeMe]

Vote Count

:

theopor_COD

(1):

Seol

Seol

(1):

VitaminR

VitaminR

(1):

Avinyl

Fircoal

(1):

Thesp

not voting

(3):

Fircoal, gorckat, theopor_COD

Four'll do it.

[theopor_COD]

Still here guys had a mad weekend, I'll hopefully get a chance to review all the thread especially pages 6-9 tomorrow morning on and I'll have a close look at Fircoal's posts. Oh and welcome gorckat.

[gorckat]

Fircoal is definitely not scum.

I'm reasonably certain neither Avinyl, theopor or you are scum.

These posts are from the 19th and within ~30 minutes of each other. It was the day you were posting emotionally (sympathy plays some called them), if I recall my reading correctly.

I'm curious how you can state with absolute certainty Fircoal is not scum. Why did you fall back to 'reasonably certain'?

It might be weak a weak tell, but the only two people who can say that someone is definitely not scum are the scum and it was during a period when you admitted to posting off the cuff (post 137) so I feel it is more likely to mean something.

vote: VitaminR

[theopor_COD]

Ok had a quick re-read, will have a further one this morning as such I'm inclined to be leaning towards a vote for Fircoal. Too much fence sitting, fishing, not really enough input to catch the scum in my opinion.

MAybe he has no comments.

I'm pretty sure Soel would have had a comment on the early bandwagon, fishing for a response.

Though I too, would like to hear from Avinyl.

More fishing . . .

In fact, I want to here from one of our lurkers, names Thesp. My suspicions at this point are about the same as Seol and Theopor_Cod, except the fact that they both could be scum.

And some more.

I would like to hear input from Theopor_Cod, Seol, and Avinyl. I've heard what Theopor said, but a little more has happened.

Keeps on.

Well then what are your opinions about Azkar?

And on, then posts his suspicion list before asking everyone else to do so, I find this slightly scummy, it gives me the vibe he sort of wants an update to see if anyone finds him suspicious

Azkar, what do you think of Avinyl, and Thesp?

Back at the information game.

Anyway to sum up all of Fircoal's 46 posts so far I've looked at them and none really seem to be of any assistance from a town standpoint, he's either fishing for information or speculating about scumpairs, he's also pretty quick to change opinions of people. Here for instance posts that he finds Thesp more scummy than town, then an hour later totally changes his opinion after Thesp makes a post claiming he doesn't agree with the Vitamin R hate and that he still wants a claim from me.

I'm not sure on Thesp, but it seems that he's more scum then town, I'm still not seeing much that could make Thesp or Avinyl more on the town side.

Vote: Seol

I feel I can trust Theopor_Cod, Akbar, and Thesp a little bit.

Thesp's well down his scum list aswell, seems odd considering he found him more scum than town

ok here is my list:

Seol
VitaminR
Avinyl
<huge gap>
Theopor_Cod
Thesp
<big gap>
Azkar
Fircoal

Anyway I think Fircoal deserves an

FOS

and I'm going to be keeping a close eye on him. I'd also like others to comment on his play so far. Cue fishing jibe.

As for the others - well not much change, Vitamin is putting across a good argument against why he finds me pro-town, although I'm still not convinced with his attack on Soel, that debate is one that needs a few spare days to get my head round. Avinyl has posted very little so unable to decipher much from him, I do think he needs to give a good summary of his opinions so far not just the one/two liners. Thesp is playing careful it seems, I'm finding him more pro-town than not but again not convinced. Lastly gorkcat have you anything else to add so far other than your vote on Vitamin? Maybe a summary of the thread so far and these charts, i'm itching to see something.

[theopor_COD]

EBWOP - I'm not voting Soel above there. The Quotation mark was missed. As such

unvote

if needed.

[Fircoal]

The reason I'm switching my stand point, so much is that so many good arguements are going out, I don't know who to trust, and who is right. Every post I believe who ever posted last. I Don't think that fishing is a scum tell, and I'm not fishing for power roles.

[theopor_COD]

The reason I'm switching my stand point, so much is that so many good arguements are going out, I don't know who to trust, and who is right. Every post I believe who ever posted last. I Don't think that fishing is a scum tell, and I'm not fishing for power roles.

I'd agree that I don't trust anyone, not as forcibly as Vitamin has in any case or you Fircoal, with your current stand with Azkar nee gorckat, does this still apply?

I'll add that i'm not implying that your fishing for power roles, i'm more interested in trying to understand where Thesp is coming from.

[VitaminR]

These posts are from the 19th and within ~30 minutes of each other. It was the day you were posting emotionally (sympathy plays some called them), if I recall my reading correctly.

I'm curious how you can state with absolute certainty Fircoal is not scum. Why did you fall back to 'reasonably certain'?

I didn't fall back. It was just a blanket phrase. I'm not equally certain about all of them. That would be strange.

I don't know why I can be that certain Fircoal is not scum. I am, though.

It might be weak a weak tell, but the only two people who can say that someone is definitely not scum are the scum and it was during a period when you admitted to posting off the cuff (post 137) so I feel it is more likely to mean something.

Yeah, giving no justification and stating with certainty that people are not scum is useful for scum. Never mind the fact that I've severely restricted my ability to get people lynched. I have forced myself to pressure either you or Seol. As scum, you need two lynches to win. That means I have no leeway anywhere, if I'm scum.

Also, why would I draw needless amounts of attention to myself stating things like that with certainty? I've received two or three votes for my certainty by now.

I could just say "his analysis has been useful, I'm getting a pro-town vibe off Fircoal." No responsibility, no content and I'd be free to jump on him if someone pointed out something scummy that I had 'missed.'

I'm not surprised by your vote at all, though.

Doesn't it strike anyone as somewhat odd that both Azkar and gorckat find themselves disagreeing with me completely?

[gorckat]

Yeah, giving no justification and stating with certainty that people are not scum is useful for scum. Never mind the fact that I've severely restricted my ability to get people lynched. I have forced myself to pressure either you or Seol. As scum, you need two lynches to win. That means I have no leeway anywhere, if I'm scum.

Also, why would I draw needless amounts of attention to myself stating things like that with certainty? I've received two or three votes for my certainty by now.

What I'm saying is that you

slipped

. You didn't do it because it helped you. You did it because you were posting "off the cuff" and frequently.

Maybe I'm being snowed by Seol's side of things, but the following also warranted an asterix on my printout:

VitaminR wrote:
As for the Azkar wagon, Seol didn't comment on it as it was going on. He attacked me when it was winding down.

VitaminR wrote:
Azkar-Thesp: Thesp essentially just waved away the Fircoal-Azkar thing, commenting on it afterwards. If they were scumbuddies, he would not dismiss a case that was that prominent so easily. If Azkar turns up scum, it is too damning a mark on his record. He's too experienced a player to make that kind of mistake.

I'm not seeing the difference. I ignored the wagon (along with the rest of the game - not that that's justifiable, just trying to put it in context), which therefore links me and Azkar. Thesp, who actually was here, was ignoring the wagon, and it's a sign they're not linked... except that if Azkar is scum, it's a black mark against Thesp (i.e., it's a sign they're linked... if it suits you).

You're taking the same behaviour and saying it means X in one case and not-X in another. Isn't this just a case of you interpreting the evidence in whatever manner is most convenient for you?

(Emphasis mine)

I agree with the bolded part.

[VitaminR]

What I'm saying is that you

slipped

. You didn't do it because it helped you. You did it because you were posting "off the cuff" and frequently.

Let's just assume for a moment that it was a slip. It isn't, it's just ambiguous phrasing, but I'd like to make a point. How does that help me? Have I used it anywhere to argue against Fircoal? Has my stance concerning Fircoal changed? Have I indicated any sort of change in my perception of Fircoal anywhere?

I don't get how this is damning evidence, or evidence of any sort really.

You're taking the same behaviour and saying it means X in one case and not-X in another. Isn't this just a case of you interpreting the evidence in whatever manner is most convenient for you?

(Emphasis mine)

I agree with the bolded part.

You're ignoring my defence here, given after that statement. That is a bit unfair.

Here is the gist of it:

What you did was not drawing an obvious connection between the two of you, though. Avoiding a wagon is something that a lot of players do. Defending another player and attacking their attacker is likewise common. They're subtle connections. That is the distinguishing factor.

[Thesp]

Do you agree that it wasn't warranted at the time, though?

On the contrary, I think the call for the claim was entirely warranted.

Thesp, could you explain this in more detail?

What precisely do you think warrants further explanation?

I don't know why he thinks I'm scum, and how he can clear VitaminR, with the proof we have.

I have strong feelings VitaminR's posts are far more likely to come from town than scum.

Just checking in- I had to take my wife to the ER with some hideous stomach flu late Saturday, and as she was getting out of there Sunday evening, I went down myself. I think the worst is over, but I feel as if I've been beaten with an aluminum baseball bat.

God be with you and yours in your hour of need. Take care of your priorities first...then take care of your wife.

No, kidding of course. We'll still be here.

Still happiest with a Fircoal wagon. I'd switch to Seol as needed.

[VitaminR]

On the contrary, I think the call for the claim was entirely warranted.

Looking at the other votes on the wagon and the way the pressure on theopor has subsequently developed, I still think it was premature at best. But let's get not into another discussion about that.

What precisely do you think warrants further explanation?

The reasons for your Fircoal vote.

[theopor_COD]

Gorckat you got any opinions on anything else other than Vitamin R. So far to me it doesn't seem like you've come in with an open mind, i can sort of see where your coming from with the attack on VR and his so called slip with stance on Fircoal.

Also I think it's time Avinyl posted something worthwhile his lack of particpation isn't helping.

Thesp is looking much more town. I'm getting a warm feeling from his posts mind it would help even more if he substantiated his opinions on Fircoal.

[theopor_COD]

EBWOP: Should have added to first sentence that although I can understand the attack on Vitamin, other things are worthy of discussion.

[gorckat]

@VR: You are correct, I did miss your defense to Seol's accusation; I believe you actually made a post or two before responding to it so I missed it in making my post. My apologies.

@theopor: I came in with a very open mind, but VR and Seol stuck out to me based on their prolific posting. VR seemed to be bulldogging Seol unfairly and I felt his slip on Fircoal was telling.

I'll see if I can get some opinnions about the others up, especially Seol, since it seems to be a VR/Seol split.

And if I mangle anyone's names or abbreviate them unconventionally, I'm sorry. I like to type them as I would say them (Hi, Firc! Hi, Avi! :p)

[gorckat]

Oops! That @theopor was s'posed to be Thesp!

[Thesp]

The reasons for your Fircoal vote.

His approach seems as though it would be more advantageous coming from scum than from town, and doesn't feel genuine to me.

That's all I wish to divulge at this point.

I'm certain gorckat is town.

[gorckat]

(Finally! I started this last night, but knocked myself out with a couple nightime Sudafeds, and luckily my wife never closed the browser )

I guess it was for theopor

and

Thesp :p Reading is tech!

RE: Seol

I reread his posts and don't see him as anything other than helpful. I agree with the machine-like assessment of him. He just seems to grind away. I'm not sure if I agree with his views on theopor, so I read his posts next.

RE: theopor

In total, I think his 'sympathy' posts were genuine. He was a bit loose in the early game, 'fessed up to it and has posted pretty tightly. He's examing Fircoal's posts and solciiting other views- he's balanced. Whatever nerves he had he's worked out.

RE: Fircoal

He seems to be seeking out the right person to hang his hat on. He's got a few people down at varying degrees of trustworthiness and others he speculates on their possible scum pairs. To me, asking for other opinions isn't suspect in and of itself. But many of his posts are just a solicitation for an opinion or a brief statement of suspicion.

On the 19th his votes scatter a bit- he unvotes Theopor and FoSes VR, votes Seol and then unvotes Seol, all within ~24 hours.

Every post I believe who ever posted last.

Then append to every post in the thread a quick:

I'm innocent!

It could just be a convenient out to vote with a lynch the next time someone's at -1.

[Avinyl]

I have had internet problems again. I really hope it is fixed for good now. I will reread.

[gorckat]

Lemme see if I can squeeze out views on the others, real quick:

RE: Thesp

Seems pretty even-keeled. Not an enormous amount of posts, but pretty consistent with Fircoal and theopor suspicions.

RE:Avinyl

With connection troubles, I think he deserves a chance to catch-up. He did label Fircoal as suspicious early on and cleared him without much explanation, but I'm not sure how to view that since there's not much context.

RE: MeMe

Hasn't added much of anything, other than vote tallies and pointing out I replaced Azkar

I'll give my scum list in order to keep up with the Joneses

Most Scummy

VR
Firc (top 2 pretty even)
Avinyl (only because of the lack of context for clearing Firc)
Seol
Thesp
theopor

Least Scummy