Policy Discussion: Newbie Games

[mith]

One question, for now:

1. Assuming we stick with 7 player games, what should the n00b-IC split be?

4-3 (current). The goal of this is to have ICs in the game to provide help for the new players, but in some cases I'm not sure that this is actually happening. Also, there are far more new players signing up to play than ICs willing to help, even limiting the newbies to one game at a time.

5-2. Same idea, but the ratio would help the queue. A minor worry here is that one IC could get lynched quickly, and the other could potentially "dominate" the rest of game.

6-1. The minor worry from above becomes a major one, and I think the IC's "teaching" here would be more likely to be biased toward whatever would help that player, rather than the newbies. So I don't think this is an option, and if the ratio is this high might as well just go to...

7-0. Ok, the obvious downside is that there would be no ICs to "help", but do we need them? The mod is by rule experienced, and can field any general questions. We've got various guides and information that could be put together more concisely for reference. And this would greatly simplify the queue. ICs could still be around as late-game replacements, or even possibly in some sort of "advisor" role (though that would have to be thought out carefully).

Well, I think I've made it clear where I'm leaning at the moment. Thoughts?

[mith]

Another option would be to have a "town advisor" who helps the town with what mistakes to avoid and things like that (but not to the point they rely on the advisor), and a "scum advisor" who can give pointers to the scum at night.

that, or IMDM is working better than expected.

Maybe better than

you

expected...

(Speaking of which, I'm really late today with the update, huh. I'll get to that soon...)

[mith]

I think we're

already

patronizing them to some degree by telling them they need to play in newbie games and learn from ICs, when in some cases the ICs are no better a role model for how to play on mafiascum than a complete newbie would be.

(Calling them "advisors" would be a bad idea, though. All I'm suggesting is having someone around to answer questions, if the new players have any.)

I guess one thing I would like to come out of this thread is to point out that new players don't

need

ICs around to hold their hand. We've had the newbie games for a while, and they've worked pretty well, but this isn't the only way new players have learned Mafia. Games with completely new players can work just fine, and even if they don't... isn't that really the point of the newbie games anyway? To allow them to make mistakes and learn how we play while not potentially spoiling a large complex game?

[mith]

Right. I think moving to 5-2 (except in the rare case where we've got 4 newbies signed up and a 5th doesn't join for several days) is the best course for now, and then we'll consider running a few 7-0 as a trial.

(Keep discussing, though...)

[mith]

Ok, look. A 7-0 will not be a learning game persay for a newbie, unless there are other newbies who have played before, but most of these people are brand new players playing now.

They will have NO idea how to go about it, especially if left on their own. If they do start discussion, they will not know the logic to go about how to keep a good game running. Not only that, when they do finish, they will leave the newbie game with little chance of knowing the basic mechanics and logic as one should when leaving their first newbie game.

1. Judging from the not-a-bot comments on admin activation, I'd say the split of completely new newbies vs. newbies who've played somewhere before is roughly 50-50.
2. Again, I think you are giving newbies far too little credit. A lot of people have the impression that newbies are completely helpless until they've played a few games - I can even understand where this impression comes from, as we've certainly had plenty of cases of new players getting into a larger more complex game and completely screwing it up.

But to suggest that a new player, given the proper resources, can't possibly work out how the game works without an IC to guide them? I mean, there is definitely evidence that an all-newbie game isn't completely doomed (otherwise, the GL and brunchma games would probably have never taken off, and this site wouldn't exist). I am convinced that if we put together a

good

newbie-friendly guide (which we don't have, at least as far as strategy goes) a 7-0 game would work just fine, but the fact is that we can't know for sure without trying it.

The whole point of newbie games are to teach the newbies how to go about tricking others as scum, and finding scum as town. To prepare them for OTHER games. If they play one or two 7-0 games, they will think they're ready to branch out, only to STILL be as clueless as they are in their first game.

The "whole point" of newbie games is to:

1. Teach newbies the basic rules. (Something a well-written guide and an experienced mod can do.)
2. Filter out the players that are going to flake within a few weeks of joining. (Irrelevant for this discussion.)
3. Teach newbies the basics of catching scum and/or acting innocent.

Even if I agreed with your statement here (that they can't do 3 adequately in an IC-free game), 7-0 games would accomplish the first two goals more efficiently than with ICs.

But I don't agree. How would a well-written guide be any less effective than an IC in teaching the basics of strategy? One could argue that the guide would be even more effective, because of the conflict of interests inherent in a player also acting as teacher.

And let's face it. Some of the players that have acted as ICs have done a terrible job of teaching. A bad IC can do a lot more harm than a good IC can do good.

[mith]

(I would also add that starting up a game with all new players that

already know each other

is naturally going to lead to at least a few lynches for silly reasons. That's not an issue we have with our newbie games here.)

[mith]

Oh, sure, if we did a 1-1 advisor thing. I don't think anyone but Pooky is arguing for that though.

I could see a single "town advisor" working ok though, so long as we were carefuly about it becoming "who does the advisor think we should lynch?". Just someone to (for example):

Explain the importance of voting, while also having reasons for votes and being careful with near-lynch votes.
Discourage lurking, while also explaing the dangers of lurker-hunting.
Advise when to claim and when not to claim.
etc.

I think most things along those lines could be put into a good newbie guide, but having someone to remind and keep the town on track would be good as well, and putting

every

possible thing that could come up in a newbie guide would be too much so there would also be someone to handle those questions as they come up. And a mod can't always do that, as the mod knows who the scum are.

(Thinking about it some more, I'm not sure a pro-scum advisor would be particularly necessary, and the private nature of it would make it harder to keep an eye on.)

[mith]

Finding replacements wouldn't be a problem. Early in the game, stick a newbie in. Later on, I'm sure the displaced ICs would be happy to fill in.

The concern some people have is that the newbies wouldn't know what to do without ICs in the game. Personally, I don't think any sort of advisor is

necessary

if they have a good guide to start off with, but the advisor position I proposed is just an IC without the conflict of interests. I'm not sure whether the people saying "I wouldn't want an advisor" are talking about that version or Pooky's Personal Savior version.

(Either way, let's keep in mind that those of us discussing it here in MD are not the ones that would need someone guiding them anyway. It's easy to say "I wouldn't want an advisor" when it's not how you learned; just as I would've said "I don't want to play a somewhat artificial game with designated experienced players who are supposedly teaching me" when I learned...)

[mith]

EmpTyger, I haven't read all of N326 obviously, but I'm not seeing what was so terrible about what happened there. There were obviously mistakes made by the town, but I'd bet they learned a lot from those mistakes. If perfect play is the standard we're trying to achieve in a two day newbie game, we're crazy.

I think you're misrepresenting the 7-0 argument. I'm not suggesting we stick 7 brand spanking new players in a game and turn them loose without any help or information. Part of what I hope comes out of this (and I'll be writing more on it when I have time) is a more complete guide for the new players.

The concept of an IC player is relatively new. It's one way of showing the basics, but it's certainly not the only way. Plenty of great players have learned the game just by reading the rules, and maybe a previous game or two. I think it's possible that we're even harming the new players by giving them ICs to rely on early on; some newbies might get used to the idea of someone being there to provide all the answers, rather than doing some reading and working it out for themselves.

[mith]

Well, yes, exactly. "Don't vote

too quickly

in lylo" is something that could easily be put into some sort of newbie guide. I fail to see how this would be any less helpful than an IC IH putting it in an opening post.

[mith]

I'm fine with it, at least as a see-how-it-goes thing. I haven't been paying enough attention the past month to have any idea how much it would help; if you think it's worth trying that's good enough for me.