Policy Discussion: Newbie Games

[mith]

One question, for now:

1. Assuming we stick with 7 player games, what should the n00b-IC split be?

4-3 (current). The goal of this is to have ICs in the game to provide help for the new players, but in some cases I'm not sure that this is actually happening. Also, there are far more new players signing up to play than ICs willing to help, even limiting the newbies to one game at a time.

5-2. Same idea, but the ratio would help the queue. A minor worry here is that one IC could get lynched quickly, and the other could potentially "dominate" the rest of game.

6-1. The minor worry from above becomes a major one, and I think the IC's "teaching" here would be more likely to be biased toward whatever would help that player, rather than the newbies. So I don't think this is an option, and if the ratio is this high might as well just go to...

7-0. Ok, the obvious downside is that there would be no ICs to "help", but do we need them? The mod is by rule experienced, and can field any general questions. We've got various guides and information that could be put together more concisely for reference. And this would greatly simplify the queue. ICs could still be around as late-game replacements, or even possibly in some sort of "advisor" role (though that would have to be thought out carefully).

Well, I think I've made it clear where I'm leaning at the moment. Thoughts?

[Mr Stoofer]

I think anywhere from 2-5 ICs is fine - the priority should be to keep the queue moving and reduce the waiting time as much as possible.

I understood that Norinel varied the ratio so as to achieve this and I support that.

I don't see much evidence of IC players dominating games but then I would if I could...

[Patrick]

I'd say have as many IC's as the queue can reasonably take. Ideally I'd say 3 IC's, dropping to a minimum of 2 in some games if the queue is really backing up.

[Mr. Flay]

I'm with Patrick. Normally 4-3, 5-2 when we start to get backed up. I could live with 5-2 if the backlog is more-or-less permanent now, since town hardly ever lynches IC and NKs IC right off the bat.

If we went to 7-0, which I think is perfectly acceptable, we'd probably

have

to revamp the C9 design. We get too many Lynch-or-lose scenarios on D2 as it is, and way too many games end quickly because a townie votes another townie and scum hammer. Maybe C9 with two more townies? But then we're back to the other discussion...

I think we're okay for the most part. People got bogged down with replacements and other games when the site choked in October, and I think that's finally smoothed out. The other thing that would help would be if it were somehow easier for mods to pick up their games; with all the replacements and what not, it's sometimes risky to try to grab your own game anymore, as someone's been replaced into somewhere else and the newbie doesn't always know to say 'hey wait, I'm already here...'

[MeMe]

I think 5/2 should be made permanent. I don't notice a difference between that and 4/3 when I mod or play in them and the experienced players who play in several would get some much-needed relief!

[Patrick]

I think more IC's increases the learning experience for new players and is a good thing. One problem with 5-2 is that if both IC's are scum the town is very likely to lose, and any advice given by IC's is likely to be motivated by the role the IC has. At least with 3 ICs, you have guaranteed 1 IC pro town player.

I have to say the 7-0 idea kind of makes me shudder

[Adele]

I like the adviser idea, and would be very happy to take part in that - if you like, I could even draft up some common points that need raising in many newbies that an advisor could just cut 'n' paste at the necessary points. Of course, an advisor would have to show better restraint than to solve the game for the newbies, but people with a crap win record like myself might be very able to hold back on that score.

[Blackberry]

i agree with MeMe

[AndrewS]

7-0 would work well if there was an advisor role to take care of things like quick lylo votes and such. Alternatively, 5-2 may be our best bet, at least temporarily, due to the influx of new players.

[Mr. Flay]

Could the moderator serve as that experienced advisor, or is it better to have someone who doesn't even subconsciously know the roles? I agree that the advisor shouldn't try to solve the game for the newbies, and I personally generally forget who is what in games I running until I check my notes at lynch, but maybe it's an idea. Of course, if we free up all the ICs who are currently playing, there'd be plenty of advisors, so I may be barking up the wrong tree entirely.

Also, I was surprised to discover just now that in the last three weeks we've averaged over 1,000 posts/day on MafiaScum!

Not only are we recovered from the October 2006 crash, but we're growing again in great bursts... that, or IM

D

M is working better than expected.

[mith]

Another option would be to have a "town advisor" who helps the town with what mistakes to avoid and things like that (but not to the point they rely on the advisor), and a "scum advisor" who can give pointers to the scum at night.

that, or IMDM is working better than expected.

Maybe better than

you

expected...

(Speaking of which, I'm really late today with the update, huh. I'll get to that soon...)

[AndrewS]

But if we do 2 advisors, we're practically back to square 1 - the same problem of having too few IC players...

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Then it'd be 7-2 though and giving advice is far less effort.

[Mr Stoofer]

But if we do 2 advisors, we're practically back to square 1 - the same problem of having too few IC players...

... and you'll find it harder to get IC advisers than IC players.

I say: don't patronise newbies with advisers and the like. I would have hated it and it might well have put me off.

Throw them in at the deep end! It didn't do us any harm.

[AndrewS]

This is true - and something we have to consider is that a large number of newbies are skipping the newbie games entirely - and thus putting themselves in tougher games with harder opponents and more complex roles.

[Mr Stoofer]

And patronising them will only increase that.

[Blackberry]

I agree that advisors AREN'T a good idea and patronizing.

[mith]

I think we're

already

patronizing them to some degree by telling them they need to play in newbie games and learn from ICs, when in some cases the ICs are no better a role model for how to play on mafiascum than a complete newbie would be.

(Calling them "advisors" would be a bad idea, though. All I'm suggesting is having someone around to answer questions, if the new players have any.)

I guess one thing I would like to come out of this thread is to point out that new players don't

need

ICs around to hold their hand. We've had the newbie games for a while, and they've worked pretty well, but this isn't the only way new players have learned Mafia. Games with completely new players can work just fine, and even if they don't... isn't that really the point of the newbie games anyway? To allow them to make mistakes and learn how we play while not potentially spoiling a large complex game?

[Mr Stoofer]

Couldn't agree more.

[Glork]

I think 2 ICs is probably fine. However, I feel that many mods should make more of a conscious effort to answer procedural ("What happens if a deadline comes and we don't have enough to lynch?"), technical ("Do I have to unvote before switching votes? Should I do so anyway?"), and gameplay ("What does WIFOM mean? What about FoS?") questions. The most basic tactics should be explained by the ICs as the game progresses, along with advice on common Newbie Game issues. ("So, uh... everyone random-voted and now we're sitting here. What do we do now?") But other than that, I completely agree with the sentiment that new players don't generally need to be babied into leanring the game. Let ICs and the Mod point to relevant wiki articles, examples from other games, or whatever else comes up, but don't overdo things by forcing more than a couple of experienced helpers.

[Mr. Flay]

As a mod I try to give the players 12-24 hours before I start answering procedural/definitional questions; I don't want them relying on me too much, and there's a fairly big risk of the moderator giving away hints by what they do/don't answer.
(okay so I changed my answer from before, but I just had lunch and am more awake/aware now).

I say we run a game or two as 7 Newbie games. If they blow up, they blow up, but some of the "newbies" coming to the site are experienced elsewhere or in real life (two newbies just largely won 296 for the Town against myself and JDodge.). I also think we should encourage them when we think they're ready to move on, not to keep cycling through C9 newbie games 5x. Some of them may not

know

that they can jump straight out, or after just one game.

[Glork]

Oh, don't get me wrong... I don't think that mods should baby the newbies or cater to their whims either -- overreliance on experienced people is the last thing we want. I'm just saying that sometimes I wish mods would be more willing to explain some of the basics, as long as they remain completely objective.

[Mert]

I don't necessarily think we need "advisors" per se, but as Glork says, the mod could explain certain factual elements of the game or redirect to the relevant wiki page where required.

I suppose you could split it into "first newbie games", where there'd be the 7:3 ratio and "general C9 games" which, while newbies would be encouraged to play them before joining a big game, the amount of IC players was not a prerequisite to a game starting. You'd probably need a maximum cap of IC players but no minimum amount.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Another way that could work is if we offer a 1:1 ratio for Newbies/IC's so that the IC's do not actually play the game. Each game would consist of 7 newbies, each with a designated IC who would function in an advisory role, the more challenged a newbie feels, the more he can ask for tips/advice/analysis from his IC. They could also bounce ideas around and go over posting and what not so an IC can comment on what a newbie is doing correctly or incorrectly and offer helpful advice in a step by step manner. Since the IC's are not actively engaged in the game and only serve as an advisory role, it'd make newbies feel more involved in the flow of the game and not feel intimidated by an IC presence, it also makes for a better teaching oppurtunity in my opinion. Each IC can have as many newbies as they think they can handle though I would suggest probably a cap somewhere.

I think this manner would have the newbies learn more about how to play mafia than the current system because it's rather difficult for an newbie to learn from an IC when the newbie does not know what the IC's role is and vice versa, the whole atmosphere of suspicion thing kind of gets in the way of a teaching oppurtunity.

[Zindaras]

The problem with that is that we'd need a massive amount of IC's to fill all those spots.