Policy Discussion: "Normal"

[Kelly Chen]

Real quick.

I would like to define "normal" for the use of a player who is signing up for a random game without knowing anything about it. They should be able to play the game without difficulties arising from lacking special knowledge or not being able to guess how the mod creates flavor. The big thing here, my personal rule of thumb, is that in a normal game scum should be able to effectively fake claim without special knowledge or insight.

In my opinion even a game that has mafia flavor and very standard roles will violate this principle when it doesn't reveal at least the townie PM (or if it does this but doesn't make townie a viable claim), or give scum specific guidance on how a town role PM might be written.

Of the

five

six(can't count) Little Italy games mith lists, Futuristic and Vampire are fully open, and Western provides the townie PM. I'd only be annoyed (as a player signed up for a random normal mini) if I found myself playing in the other

two

three.

EWP: Well from mith's last post to Patrick I don't know whether this post is even welcome. I want to come up with practical reasons here to have one definition over another. That's what I took the discussion part to be.

Regarding mith's specific points.

a. Ok. There's not really a way to argue about this.
b. I agree we can get a confusion issue pretty quickly in newbie games.
c. Agree wrt closed setups.
d. Agree, especially wrt newbie games.
e. I'm not persuaded by this since you could require setup review for new mods. I don't think it would be a terrible idea. Also, I suspect that if a new mod is doing something potentially problematic with his setup then that suggests already that this isn't a normal setup.

EWP LOL Raffles, there are three subforums dedicated to mafia flavor only.

[Kelly Chen]

Something that is not strictly for the mod's benefit is to have at least SOME gimmick to offer to people passing by the Replacements thread. So that they aren't forced to actually open up the game thread and have a look at the ailing beast if they want to compare their options.

[Kelly Chen]

The Normal definition used to say (or said elsewhere) that werewolf flavor was admissible.

I think inventor is much closer to themed than a governor (which I assume is what is meant by mayor). I'm split on gunsmith vs. hider since the former requires the concept of "has a gun" while the latter does seem like a multi-part role.


Anyway I propose thirty-two forums plus Road to Rome.

a.

<=12p vs.

b.

>12p

c.

Mafia/werewolf flavor vs.

d.

Other flavor

e.

Standard mafia rules vs.

f.

Mafia mutations

g.

Normal roles vs.

h.

Complicated crazy roles

i.

Open/semi-open vs.

j.

Closed

Frankly, I wouldn't want to see something like "futuristic mafia", with basic roles, standard mafia rules, with no source material to look up and with flavor that in no way affects the day discussion in the "theme games" forum; if I sign up for a game in a themed forum, I would be kind of disapointed to see a regular mafia game like that with just a tiny amount of flavor that has no effect on game play in any way to be considered a "theme" game.

I agree with your post, though I note that the current situation is that instead of being disappointed by themes that are too normal, you can be disappointed by normals that are too themed.


Mafia 43 (Married...) is an example of a game that arguably has mafia flavor but in my opinion can't usefully be called "normal" when you look at the claims the scum had to come up with. There are probably better examples...

[Kelly Chen]

I would say 53 was a BCEHI and themed due to the H (role selection). Whereas 43 was arguably BCEGJ which should be normal. (Due to the wedding theme I guess BDEGJ is arguable, in which case 43 wasn't normal due to that.)

What I want to say is that even if 43 is considered mafia-themed and with normal roles, the theme was so heavy (and with the setup closed) that it's not useful to call it "normal" except to players who really are seeking out games with a mafia theme, as opposed to games that simply don't have tricks to them.

[Kelly Chen]

Smalltown 2 isn't basic enough even if you strip out the flavor? Why not? mith has said an open role (split role/alignment) game could be normal.

I don't agree with mith's point that flavor in an open setup could hurt it, unless it's something really pretty offensive. I signed up to play Scrubs because I knew it would be an open setup. I don't know anything about Scrubs except what some of the characters look like from the commercials. The worst I figure could happen is that I miss some game-irrelevant jokes.

I have even less idea what Eddie Izzard is, but I don't see the problem if it's an open setup. Wouldn't it at least be nice to play with people who ARE interested in the particular flavor?


Regarding roles...

I don't like saying Arsonist is relatively normal because then Fireman probably is too.

I suspect burglars, chefs, and inventor type roles are better off not normal. They all require a little mod creativity don't they?

I believe tracker is definitely normal! And retired cop is a backup cop isn't it? I think that's fine... I've always rather disliked the cowardly reporter role as an inelegant mix of a hiderish role and a watcher. I'd rather see watchers in normal games than cowardly reporters.

If we do come up with a list of roles that definitely can be accepted then we could take the next step and write the official role PMs that go with them. Or at least the official format of such role PMs.

[Kelly Chen]

Arsonist is just a variant SK, isn't it? I don't see a difference between "SK", "Arsonist", "Psychopath", and "Cannibal" except in their kill methods. If those variations are not okay, I *definitely* want to know that. And their respective investigators just are Role Cops...

Well, personally I would never complain about an arsonist. I would raise my eyebrow at a claimed fireman though. And if I were making a list of roles likely to occur in a normal game I'm pretty sure I wouldn't put fireman very high on it.

On the flip side of this discussion, Open Games are supposed to be Normal, but I definitely wouldn't call Vengeful "Normal", as the mechanics are rather weird. So we really need to get a grip on this...

Good point. That's like ACFHI. And if Vengeful is defined as not normal we can be pretty sure it won't be played anymore, since people won't use mini theme modding slots to run a 5p game.

[Kelly Chen]

superstring, no one would ever claim their SK flavor EDIT:

except when a scumbag seems to be claiming psychiatrist

. What that PM says is totally unimportant to gameplay.

But let's say that was a cop role PM.

You are a Frenchman, and you are sick of those damn Italians, with their pasta, and their olives, and their gardens, and their olive gardens. Enough is enough.

You can investigate somebody every night and see if they're Italian scum. You win with the town.

Now if I'm scum and think I'm going to try fake claiming cop, or even some other role, if you or someone ask me what kind of flavor I have, and I just make something up, there's a good chance you'll decide I'm lying because it's not similar to your real flavor.

That is a bad thing for a normal game.

[Kelly Chen]

forgot to add:

What that PM says is totally unimportant to gameplay.

unimportant to gameplay, but makes it more enjoyable for the player, which ultimately affects gameplay.
and i think that most players like the game better if they have a mod who puts time and effort into what he is doing, which is ultimately telling a story[of course based on the actions of the town]

I don't know if you're seeing my point here. I'm saying it doesn't matter what flavor you give to a scum role; that won't break anything. But if you give flavor to town roles you run the risk that the town may be able to find scum just by scum's inability to make believable claims. In my opinion there should never be any risk of this happening in a "normal" game.

[Kelly Chen]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. The Mini Theme Queue is 9 mods long right now (less than two months, last I checked), with less people in it than the Mini Normal list for some reason. When I ran Reservoir Dogs, the list was about six months long!

Unless you're claiming that most of the people in Mini Normal want to run flavored games, I think there's too much hype to this claim.

Different modding requirements. I just glanced at the queues and that's totally the reason.

I've heard from several newer people that they want to run mini themes but can't yet, and I get the impression they see the open list or mini reg list as stepping stones to that.

EDIT: !@#$@

[Kelly Chen]

i think our major problem in this discussion is the definition of flavor.
the way i see flavor is:
a theme, if you will, that does not change gameplay at all, but adds setting, and enjoyment to the game. ie: sicilian, werewolf, lobsters.

I'm scum in a game about Lobsters. How do I claim cop?

If the answer is anything more complicated than "I am a Lobster Cop, no flavor" then I think the lobster setting has changed the gameplay.

[Kelly Chen]

"I'm a cop. I'm a New York city beat cop, one of the few who hasn't sold out, and I'm trying to find out who the mafia are."

That doesn't fit my vision of normalcy I'm afraid.

My point though is as Thok posts, the definition is problematic even with superstring's simple scenario.

[Kelly Chen]

I think for me the main appeal of adjusting the size of a game upwards is that you can have more direct control of the signups. It may also be easier to get replacements (especially when you get to the point that you'll take any newb whose attention you can get).

I definitely don't want to make a game larger just because I can, when there's like no difference in wait time.