Policy Discussion: "Normal"

[Thok]

b. This mostly applies to the Newbie queue, but even some of the bigger themed-posing-as-normal games I've seen (/played in) are confusing to the players. If a new player signs up for this Mafia thing they've been told about, and then finds himself in a game about Invisible Ninja Pirate Tigers, at best they're going to be a little confused until they separate the flavor from the actual game, and at worst they're going to be put off and leave the site.

Are there any actual examples of this (specifically the scaring people from the site part/but to some extent the confusing players also)? I mean, I accept that it could hypothetically happen, but it seems like an extreme reaction.

I will comment that most of the time an addition of a specific theme to an otherise normal setup is mostly for the mod's benefit, to give them a chance to fantasize/write about a setting they like. From that point of view, I could see requiring straight mafia flavor as a way to control mod interference/avoid mod mistakes.

(As a side note, I believe that part of the reason you've been having issues with this now is that the Mafia Flavor requirement hasn't been rigourously and uniformly enforced in the past. I have no problems abiding with these guidelines, but make it clear that those are the guidelines.)

[Thok]

I think just raising public awareness of the rules helps with enforcement.

I think that for Newbie games, enforcement is fairly straightforward; take a look at the role PM's and the intro post; if they have anything to do with anything other than mafia invading a town, send a firm PM to the moderator in question.

One quick comment; I don't think there's anywhere in the rules/wiki that actually says Newbie games are required to be normal games. (This is clearly an oversight, given that we know your intention; the presence or absence of flavor in Newbie Games is simply not mentioned. Probably there was no expectation that people would add flavor on top of the variou basic setups.)

[Thok]

This is a really bad time to be having this discussion for me, when my mafia I spent ages preparing is 8/12 full and now apparently, I have to redo everything in a couple of days.

Now I'm gonna go cry.

For what it's worth, you can keep your current mafia in storage for when you are eligible for the mini theme list.

[Thok]

No. It's not a matter of definition, it's a matter of fact. A normal role is a role that is used in mafia frequently, and does not require any significant rule changing mechanic to work. If you find anything wrong with that as a definition, then let me know.

There is nothing about hiders or gunsmiths that makes them any different from cops and doctors in terms of both ease to understand, and commonality. The only difference is that maybe they're not THE most common roles, but they're still common, and since you give us no brightline as to evaluate what is common ENOUGH, you have no offense there anyway.

I'd say hider is closer to a normal role than gunsmith (and there are probably others who think the opposite way.) Gunsmith is a weird variant cop. Using it properly takes a lot of thought (and requires knowing things like that it's normal for a cop to have a gun, or that somebody stabbing people with a knife need not have a gun; it clearly uses flavor.)

In comparison, a hider doesn't require any thought about the setup to use.

There also the "If I only told you that mafia was scum versus townies, what roles would you be likely to add next" test. Cop/doctor/vig/masons/SK are reasonably obvious ideas to add by themselves. Hider isn't an obvious role to add, but one could add it without adding anything else. Gunsmith makes sense to add only after you created things like SK's and cops, and then only if you are thinking "How can I make a cop different from usual?"

[Thok]

Thok, you're begging the question. Actually, a lot of them.

What roles are allowed, and what roles are not? What is too counter-intuitive or too setup changing to be allowed in? After all, after the big 4-5 roles, it's all subjective anyway. It seems kind of strange to try to make that an objective rule.

Oh, I know I'm begging the question. But I wanted to give some thoughts on why certain roles might not be considered normal/what sort of things we are looking for in a normal role.

Just for some historical perspective; of the three of mayor, hider, gunsmith, mayor is the only role listed on the Princeton site. I believe (and somebody should doublecheck with DP) that gunsmith was introduced in GL 24, specifically as a balance to the scum mason that was also introduced in GL 24. I don't know the origin of hider.

[Thok]

Much of the reason for the shortness of the Mini Theme Queue is the new modding requirements, which forces new mods to go through one of Open Games/Mini Normal Queue at least once before they can go to the Mini theme Queue. I think 11 out of the 14 people currently on the Mini Normal list have never run a game before.

[Thok]

lobster cop
doctor lobster
king crab[GF]
crab legs[mafia goons]
shrimp[townies]

Day 1, doc lobster is dead. Day 2, I fakeclaim scallops cop early on. Lobster cop counterclaims. I now get to say "Why is lobster both a cop and a doc? It makes no sense!" And now the theme has interferred with the game.

(Obviously in an open setup this can't matter.)