NY 170: Georgetown II (Game Over)

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/confirm

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Vote: Brian Skies

because what a silly username!

I do not think it is a multiball, because mountainous implies that it is simply vanilla mafia vs. vanilla townies. Looking at Georgetown I it wasn't mountainous but it would be kind of weird to run a mountainous for your first moderation!

I think I skimmed a lot on my first read so I'm going to try again later and see if there is anything in this early stage of the game truly worth commenting on.

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Huntress: Is there any way we could get clarification on this? As to what the definition of "mountainous" is, and does such a game type forbid multiple mafia teams?

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Multiball means more than one anti-town faction. So the debate in this game is if there is only group of Mafia or two groups, which I think is the limit for normal games.

VI stands for Village Idiot, and as you can imagine that's a derogatory term you call someone when you feel they are playing rather stupidly.

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Vote: emogirl123

After rereading the thread, it feels like the right choice to lynch emogirl today. A lot of her actions are suspicious to me, and these pages have been so dominated by her and discussion of her that I feel her flip would produce the most fruitful relationship analysis tomorrow.

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I agree that I have been

town telling

awfully hard and in turn this makes me

suspicious

. However I think this is a

null read

to go on, and when I flip town, you have gained zero information. Congrats.

I've been doing town things
Which make me seem suspicous
So it's all null in the end?

How does that even make sense?

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Scum try very hard to look town; town just tries to catch scum.

My vote stays.

QFT.

I think your suspicious because you are doing weird things with people. Like the whole Garmr scenario. I don't really care to have you try to argue this again, but since you asked: You not only defended Garmr, you then called him a townread while noting his posts were "flaily". And now I see inklings of that with Maenara; she's trying to policy lynch you, but you are weirdly defending her and it makes no sense.

I do think there is something strange about Garmr and Bulbazak's play, but I don't really know for sure where it is going because it is so greatly linked to emogirl.

Lynching emogirl is not a lazy lynch, it is one that will on one part define relationships to a person with confirmed alignment for many people, and on the other part assist in equalizing the posting so that we can focus on those who aren't really contributing.

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I think it will be extremely useful. There will be 10 people on the wagon whose cases for lynching you, plus OGML and others who didn't want to lynch you or just completely avoided talk about your wagon. While I know I can't orate it well, I do think you are the most scummy player right now, and if you and I do think you are being annoying, then that certainly isn't helping town.

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I know. I'm just fucking confised

I don't care that it's misspelled, I have had the same reaction. I've been staring at the ceiling for like minutes, so confused by emogirl.

And it's not really that she self-voted, because I never know what to do with that. It's that she has yet again, when someone has tried to start a counterwagon to that of her own, she has gone against it. First with Maenara and now kabooooom. I don't see scum doing that.

Unvote: emogirl123

, not that I'm really pleased with emogirl's play, it's not feeling very town and it's wrecked any semblance of usefulness that Day 1 can possibly have. I do still think that lynching her would make for interesting relationship analysis, but there is no longer that same scummy feel due to her denial of two potential counterwagons to her own.

Also my computer sensed that Garmr's link was a virus and even though I know it is not it is a rickroll I still think it's really distracting and not really town either

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weee expected/10

when I said "not town" I mean like not good town play. It's obvious that I don't think emogirl's playstyle is helpful, but I have trouble believing it is scummy anymore.

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Also as to Garmr's link, I was just in a post-emogirl reaction state and it came across to me as out of place, stupid, irrelevant, and useless. I don't think I'd ever base an actual vote on it.

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I have trouble believing you thought it was scummy in the first place

Do you think Chevre is town or scum?



Unrelated: Maestro, where is that Tick Tock gif from?

I actually looked this up, it's apparently from Once Upon a Time. Look guys, I can have fun with links and .gifs. #surprise

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testing for time

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OK, my clock is an hour off, but I posted my vote for emogirl at ~1:00pm yesterday, then there were 10 hours and several pages of posts, including many throughout the day who thought my vote was scummy. Yet I did not unvote until 11:00pm, only when emogirl refused the kabooooom wagon.

But if you want to lynch me for this, go ahead. I'll turn town, and I think you'll find it interesting Day-2-analysis matter how quickly the counterwagon sprung up on me, or if I'm scum, you can check the resistance against this. To be honest I do think there is more information in the emogirl lynch still, but you'll get information from mine as well.

Basically, I'm just very skeptical about Day 1 anyway so that first lynch is going to be a crapshoot, and if it has to be me then fine. I'll take one for the town.

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emogirl, you're perplexing me. Good town shouldn't focus on being read as town, they should be finding scum.

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How do you get a wagon on yourself if you're trying to look town?

And now that your wagon is dying as mine rises, can you give a summary of your findings?

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I'm utterly perplexed that Chevre isn't even really pretending to scumhunt with his life on the line.

I don't think I know how to.

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Before I am lynched, what do players want from me other than an attempt at reads? I'll work on that later tonight.

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Three parts, get over it, there will be an index at the end if you're too lazy to read it all.

Sorry this was much later than I said it would be. First I think I shall go page by page:

Page 1 - This page starts the emogirl123-kabooooom-Garmr altercation. I think the players here are on different wavelengths due to the unconfirmed gamestate; emogirl123 seems to be in that pregame perspective still while Garmr is starting off a bit more seriously. One thing I know I'm going to have issues with on this readthrough is emogirl's use of terminology and things. I don't know if it was how she was taught to play the game, but places where she claims she's "town-telling" just don't seem right to me. Anyway, right here it's "data-mine", which she uses in the context of her vote, and I think she means that she's looking for reactions.

Page 2 - Someone later mentions that these early interactions between emogirl123 and Garmr are "scum theatre". I don't see it.

However, I do think it's interesting how Garmr in his daykill post assumes that emogirl123 is new without her ever explicitly saying it in the thread

¹. Another interesting thing is that emogirl switches stance on kabooooom between 30, where she is defending against kabooooom's accusation, and 40, where she calls kabooooom a VI. However, kabooooom did not post between those two posts; only emogirl123 and Garmr did, so it's just an interesting switch of opinion. Also on this page emogirl123 uses the word "posturing", which I think of as I thing scum do (actual posturing, not the use of the word); they're positioning themselves to look down. Thus, emogirl123's reference to it sticks out to me because it is strangely blatant. Also, emogirl123's "meta" in 49 is a terrible example because she is linking her apparent "jumpy, joking style" to her alignment, and I don't think those two even correlate.

Page 3 - In 51 emogirl123 refers to the strategy of getting a wagon on herself for analysis, which I know I contend with in the future, but here she says she has changed her mind about that idea. I'm not sure how I feel about that, because she did end up getting a wagon on herself which she then claimed to be using for analysis. Maybe I'm biased by the future Maenara discussion that takes place but her opening post does seem uselessly brief. I don't really have issue with her vote on emogirl123 for being annoying because I think that's actually a good way to random-vote, but her description of Sotty 7 as "conciliatory" wants more explanation. The Goodfather's opening post, 67, is very vague just seems off. I know it's something I'm probably guilty of but that use of "interesting" places The Goodfather firmly on the fence.

Page 4 - Aegor's opening vote in 77 reads as town for me because emogirl123 had already done "lol I'm scum" jokes and I think scum would have read back and realized this was an issue of some contention before posting it. Bulbazak's opening vote on emeraldemon is very fishy given how emeraldemon had just claimed he was new and I don't completely understand what he said that could've been said in confirmation. It looks like an easy vote on an easy victim. Tebow echoes this vote, so same points to him as well. The Goodfather's 92 is like 67 in that it's just not very absolute, as though he's lying but he's very hesitant about it.

Page 5 - Aegor's unexplained vote on Garmr is weird. Most of the rest of this page was setup discussion, which yeah I do think it was good to get as much clarification as possible from the mod but it's now not useful until at least Day 2.

Page 6 - Aegor explains his vote on Garmr in 129 but the reasoning doesn't really fit the evidence, as he claims the posts relating to Garmr's daykill gambit are emotional. Then, he chides Garmr for expecting reasoning despite him just giving reasoning in the same post. I kind of understand emogirl123's defense of Garmr more now because Bulbazak is voting Garmr due specifically to emogirl123's earlier post. I disagree with Sotty7's point about setup discussion being a way for people to look as though they are doing stuff; I think rather it's legitimate curiosity at the unknown status of the setup.

Page 7 - I'm not making emogirl123's connection between "Garmr doesn't know it's mountainous; therefore, Garmr is town."

Page 8 - Nobody Special's emogirl123 vote is reasonless. Bulbazak's vote has reasoning though. Maestro's use of Garmr's "last visited" time irks me because I think introducing things like that is a pretty sleazy way to stir up suspicion of someone and wasn't "Users reading this topic" removed specifically for this reason? I don't know how I feel about Garmr's emogirl123 vote, not as reasoned as Bulbazak's I guess but better than Nobody Special's. I suppose that, whatever Garmr's alignment, emogirl123 has placed him in a tricky situation.

Page 9 - Brian Skies' emogirl123 vote is reasonless, as is Slandaar's vote on The Goodfather, which is even less useful because it's in the midst of discussion on emogirl which is probably when we most need a reason to refocus our attention. Albert B. Rampage's vote is reasonless. Like I mean I get people have already made the case on emogirl, but I want some sort of ascertaining about which points were particularly convincing.

Page 10 - I don't like emogirl123's 228 because it looks like she's just pointing out Maestro's inability to read Bulbazak as what makes him scum, when it's even implied that Maestro is just surprised he can't read Bulbazak as well as he thought he could. Maenara's vote on emogirl123 reads really poorly and makes me realize how poor my own vote was. Like sure, her high post rate is definitely something annoying about emogirl123, but it isn't a good reason to vote someone. I do still think that the information from her lynch would be useful though. I do think Maenara's honesty is genuine though. I see in addition to their similar avatars OhGodMyLife and Sotty7 have similar ideas about setup speculation, which I disagree with. I also want to point out that at this point OhGodMyLife is already criticizing the emogirl123 wagon before I join it, so it's not like I joined it when it was scot-free, started getting criticized, and then unvoted.

Page 11 - Tebow's rebuttal to Bulbazak and the "actual case" argument seems to disregard emogirl123's penchant for misuse of words, but in the end I think that makes Bulbazak's case just as null. I think Garmr's second point after asking "what's my scum motive" (which is a strange question in itself) is weird because it assumes that scum can't make mistakes or admit to them. I think it's interesting that OhGodMyLife requests Maenara's meta on policy lynches, she provides it, and then OhGodMyLife's next post is simply "I would support a Maenara lynch". Ideologically I disagree with emogirl123's 263 because I always think about and scrutinize what I want to say regardless of alignment.

Page 12 - Aegor's vote on ABR is reasonless. Slandaar recalls his own reasonless vote on Goodfather. These reasonless votes perplex me. Maybe that's why my unvote received so much criticism, I just feel like I need to explain why I am doing something so that people can clearly see my intentions. To me, it's not "overexplaining." I know he catches up later but Slandaar's early posts are generally unhelpful.

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Page 13 - emogirl's use of the word "anti-town" as not meaning "scummy" was addressed before I even said it so I'm not sure why it was an issue? I'll have to see when I reach it. Looking at my vote, it certainly wasn't verbose but at least I gave some sort of background as to why. I still don't get emogirl123's town-telling spiel; I think town should be town and not try to look town. If you get a wagon on yourself, great, analyze it, but if you are trying to get a wagon on yourself you are flirting with disaster and I think that isn't a very appropriate approach. It's weird seeing people like NS and ABR so firmly certain about emogirl123's scumminess now that they've swooped on over to my wagon. At the end of this page emogirl uses the term "actual case" again in reference to herself, but I think it more shows her looseness with words and that Bulbazak's initial point holds very little credibility.

Page 14 - kabooooom's vote on emogirl is reasonless.

Page 15 - emogirl123's refusal to discuss her reads at L-1 is pretty anti-town. Really much of her posts on this page and the last are. They're quite whiny and appealing for pity. It's not really scummy per se but anti-town and distracting, I think.

Page 16 - The Goodfather's response to Garmr's rickroll is super weird. Like I know I acknowledged it as annoying but he gets truly all fed up and votes Garmr for it. I realize that now I said "not very town" instead of "anti-town" in my unvote, so that probably explains the confusion. I'll explain this later when I address everyone individually but I still do think emogirl's play in this game is way off base of anything and it's general unreadability is giving me fits. But yeah, the idea that I unvoted once the heat started turning up on members of the emogirl wagon is false. There was criticism about that wagon before I even placed my vote, and the people who were criticizing it during the duration of my vote were the same people who had been doing it before. I feel like the "momentum" of my wagon gave Garmr an opportunity to jump from emogirl to me.

Page 18 - Aegor's vote is reasonless AGAIN, this time on me. Tebow maligns my words and assumes that since my reason was defend-able, I had wanted to get off that wagon the whole time and was thus waiting for a reason, when that isn't the truth.

Page 19 - Bulbazak seems to disregard his altercation with Tebow as an attack when really they were back-and-forthing for pages? I'm going to remain on my "soapbox" and say that I have trouble trusting the methodology of someone (in this case, Sotty7 in 461) who is voting me when I know that is not a vote on scum. She also assumed that emogirl's "trying to look town" and what I was doing after unvoting were the same thing. In all truth, I was really confused and unsure what to do with the wagon that was building on me. I think in some mindsets that's a scummy approach, but that's how I played it. NS's vote is reasonless, plus, as Tebow acknowledges, pretty much a flip-flop. And then--I forgot how much this angered me when I first read it, why-me-fry-me all you want--but NS defends himself by saying he is coasting and that he'd rather have flips to work with, which I feel is essentially the same mindset I have! But no, I get told to step off a soapbox. In 474 Brian Skies grants OGML a townread in part for recognizing his own jump to the emogirl wagon. Which I think is really weird given that IIRC OGML did not specify Brian Skies as one of the "lazy easy votes".

Page 20 - ABR gives a reason I suppose but it's a pretty terrible one, especially when he could be incriminated in pretty much the same way as I have been, minus the scrutiny for my unvote. yessirree should probably never do that format again for a read summary, the spoilers are annoying and there isn't a conclusive read on everyone. Like you can assume that when someone has a bunch of "TownReads" from him they're a town read, but at times it feels like he's purposefully leaving it out in the open for later. OGML's dislike of Bulbazak's perfectly legitimate question bugged me.

Page 21 - ABR says I'm a good lynch simply because I've been run up so far in a mountainous, without really detailing any further why I'm scummy. Plus it totally bypasses the fact that emogirl was at L-1 too, just because I'm the second person to achieve that feat I should be lynched?

Page 22 - I despise Tebow's 525. A lynch will give us an alignment which will let us see how other players treated the lynched player, thus there is more evidence. Also your argument that wagoning emogirl to get attention off emogirl is faulty, because wagons lead to lynches and then she won't be such a topic of discussion. Speaking of which, I feel as though since the heat has fallen off her she has posted less. Further, if two people have the same feeling about something there must be something acknowledgeable about it. Plus, the call out on "giving up" is just so so terrible. I truly do think Day 1 is a wash and nothing is convincing me otherwise. Thus I think a flip would be a solid piece of INFORMATION which is mod-guaranteed to be true. Plus what do you do with all of emogirl's "oh you're gonna regret this tomorrow when I flip! better pay attention to my reads!" Finally, I hate the accusation that I'm playing horribly, when essentially you're just lynching me because I'm "scummy enough". It just is so, so awful. I don't know specifically what emogirl is waiting on from me, I just said I was going to give reads. It sounds like whatever I post is not going to be enough and she's just going to keep her vote on me with that mentality.

Page 23 - Zdenek: a lynch on emogirl, on anyone really, would give town a player whose alignment is confirmed, plus whatever happens during the night. Then they can look at the relationships those players had with the living players and draw out connections. If there are dead scum you could look for buddies, obviously; if there are town it's a little more difficult as you have to A) look for people who were suspicious of them but also B) suss out who is just misguided town as opposed to opportunistic scum. I guess you could argue that flips are going to result anyway due to Mafia kills, but I just think that later days differ from Day 1 because they do have this extra layer of information, and that's why I keep insisting I'm so confused today.

Page 24 - I agree with Zdenek's reads on emeraldemon (especially given his switch from not quite understanding my wagon to agreeing with it) and The Goodfather. Also agree with OGML's opinion on Slandaar. I just haven't felt there has been any real contribution.

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Player Reads, from Towniest to Scummiest (also serves as an index)
Maestro (8, 10) - Just seems like town with the right amount of confidence.
Zdenek / Maenara (3, 10, 11, 23, 24) - I really like the analyses on emeraldemon and The Goodfather.
yessiree / WBOcampfire1104 (20) - yessiree's thoughts since replacing in seem genuine and reasonable.
Sotty7 (6, 10, 19) - Despite being in regular disagreeance with him, I feel like his posts are town-motivated.
Bulbazak (4, 6, 8, 10, 11, 13, 19, 20) - I think he was legitimately trying with emogirl but the "actual case" idea was moreso due to her poor wordage than anything else I think. The arguments were good otherwise though.

Aegor (4, 5, 6, 12, 18) - He never gives reason to his votes until asked to do so but I think that is more playstyle than anything. Still, I think his reasoning for Garmr wasn't so great.
OhGodMyLife (10, 11, 19, 20, 24) - While his thoughts are often similar to Sotty7's I think he is a bit more curt in them which makes his posts feel less town.
emogirl123 (1-4, 6-11, 13-16, 19, 21-23) - Ugh...I feel like the way she plays is so unconventional that it's impossible to read. Not only is her terminology different but her gameplay is such that I can't really make heads or tails of anything. I imagine my initial vote was frustration. Problem is, I see leaving someone like this in the game dangerous for town but since it is mountainous there isn't really anyway to remove her.
Tebow (4, 11, 18, 19, 22) - I really have mixed feelings because I feel like he's really misguided town to such an extent that it's scummy.
Brian Skies (9, 19) - Weirdly under-the-radar, but he has at least tried to catch up which differs him from others.
emeraldemon (4, 24) - I agree with what Zdenek said except the newb card, because that's the thing that really makes me hesitate.
Acidic_TACO - I never once referenced him in my writeup, which is kind of alarming. What I remember of his posts is that they seemed really inconsequential up until recently.
kaboooom (1, 2, 14) - kabooooom is probably the truest enigma for me. I just have like 0 idea.
Garmr (1, 2, 5-8, 11, 16) - Something is off about Garmr I feel, but not enough to be a full scumread. I still think it may just be association with the emogirl fiasco.
The Goodfather (3, 4, 9, 12, 16, 24) - A lot of emotional reaction and fence-sitting, it just doesn't feel like good town play. I originally had him in the scum section, but I feel like now it might just be bad play.

Albert B. Rampage (9, 12, 13, 20, 21) - He is apathetic about the game and his votes are reasonless, yet potentially integral in lynches.
Nobody Special (8, 13, 19) - See Albert B. Rampage.
Slandaar (9, 12, 24) - It's not really because of the multiball discussion, obvioiusly; I have no problem with that, it just feels outside of that he's done relatively nothing. I'm interested to see what his "investigations" are.

Vote: Slandaar

Footnotes?
¹ I struck this passage because Garmr clarifies in Post 55 that he had looked elsewhere, but I wanted to keep it in the text so that people could see my thought process.

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Page 22 - I despise Tebow's 525. A lynch will give us an alignment which will let us see how other players treated the lynched player, thus there is more evidence. Also your argument that wagoning emogirl to get attention off emogirl is faulty, because wagons lead to lynches and then she won't be such a topic of discussion. Speaking of which, I feel as though since the heat has fallen off her she has posted less. Further, if two people have the same feeling about something there must be something acknowledgeable about it. Plus, the call out on "giving up" is just so so terrible. I truly do think Day 1 is a wash and nothing is convincing me otherwise. Thus I think a flip would be a solid piece of INFORMATION which is mod-guaranteed to be true.

Just FYI, I really, really hate this kind of reasoning too, likely far more than you 'despise' mine. Again, ANY flip is a solid piece of information that is mod-guaranteed to be true. Plus if day one is a crapshoot, why are you now making this super detailed post-by-post account of the whole game? Alternatively, if this kind of very wordy analysis is pro-town, why weren't you doing it earlier?

I did the walls because I was in danger of being lynched and I wanted town to have as much of my perspective as possible. It isn't really pro-town, or at least not pleasant to do those things, but it was the only way to get my full feeling out there and I tried to make it as easy as possible with the indices.

Zdenek: If we had lynched emogirl and she had flipped town, I would've looked at A) players who voted emogirl with no obvious reasoning, B) players who jumped off the wagon when it was heating up and leading toward lynch, and C) players who weren't on the emogirl wagon but claimed she was town in a way that made it look like they knew more than a townie should. I feel like these are great starting points for Day 2 even on a town mislynch, as opposed to Day 1 where we pretty much go where the random votes lead us.

I hate to say that replacement requests can be scummy, but given that The Goodfather gave a pretty confident post just yesterday, that request looks extremely fishing, especially given the way Zdenek had just accused him of avoiding this game whilst playing in others.

Waiting for emogirl to wow me with an explanation for her Maestro vote.

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Slandaar's lists in 630 are strange, Maestro literally had the last post before he did and I understand that he means they need to post content, but still, there is no explanation beside the fact that they need to post.

emeraldemon: I don't agree with that; Slandaar has been posting, but I don't find much content in them.

I don't really see the emeraldemon case because I'm just really stuck on why he, as scum, would try to swing momentum back on to me when it was dying?

Zdenek: I didn't look into it specifically, but I think Maestro's questioning of Maenara's vote on emogirl is justified, given the rampant reasonlessness voting that was occurring.

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Prod received. Will post once I get home from school.

I will probably join the leading wagon because I think any lynch is better than no lynch, but I must admit that since from this page it appears to be emeraldemon and I am hesitant about that.

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I think I'd rather have Brian Skies' catch up posts all in one post, that way it is all consolidated on one page to sift through in that context, rather than sporadically throughout the thread.

Slandaar's reactions to Brian on page 31 up my scum read. To my gut, it feels like the wagon on him makes him think he's been caught and now he's being all sultry. Plus in 777 he switches his vote to Brian, just after responding to Brian's comment about leaving his vote on low-hanging fruit (in this case, The Goodfather, replaced by inHimshallibe).

emogirl, 821: the stuff on Maestro is still relevant even if he's no longer playing. Care to share?

The Fonz: I still do think that several comments she made, as said in my wall, were off about emogirl, so that explains my suspicions and my vote. Ultimately, I have decided she is incredibly difficult to read and I can't say with any amount of great confidence that she is forming sentences that way because she is scum or because she is town.

Also, Slandaar's jab at The Fonz that me and him are "low-hanging fruit" is disingenuine. Like I said with emeraldemon, the momentum has gone away from me, so I somewhat paradoxically say that anyone pursuing my lynch is scum. Slandaar, however, is oblivious to his own distinct switch in attitude since he started to aggregate suspicion. I think there is a difference of definition here because you've said you're low-hanging fruit due to your amount of votes; I think just the contrary, "low-hanging fruit" is someone who probably doesn't have a lot of suspicion but it would be incredibly easy to make a case on.

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If you make a case on low-hanging fruit, town is going to point out what you're doing and either not vote and/or suspect you.

If suspicion and votes are gained after you make your case, that's not low-hanging fruit. That's a true suspect.

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This ABR wagon is creepily quick; at first glance it feels like people know something this quick probably won't be the actual lynch and so scum are bussing ABR. But that still makes him scum?

Also I don't get why people are replacing into games if they aren't going to read the game? That meta needs to stop; you aren't really being helpful if you replace in and don't read, you're just looking the part.

I'm going to look at yessiree and the end-of-day wagons a bit more in-depth later tonight.

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A post on the end-of-day votecount:

For reference, here it is:

Vote Count 1.19

Slandaar (10) - Chevre, OhGodMyLife, Aegor, Brian Skies, Bulbazak, Zdenek, Matias, yessiree, Albert B. Rampage, Slandaar

Brian Skies (4) - Garmr, Sotty7, emeraldemon, emogirl123
Chevre (2) - Zekrom25, The Fonz
emeraldemon (1) - inHimshallibe
emogirl123 (1) - kabooooom

Not voting (1) - Nobody Special

With nineteen players alive, it takes ten votes to lynch.

Deadline for Day One has been extended due to the replacements and is now Wednesday, 5th February 20.00 GMT, (in (expired on 2014-02-05 20:00:00)).

Let's go over the votes on Slandaar's lynch first. Obviously mine is the first vote; I think at the time of casting it was a weak vote based primarily on a sort of active lurking but Slandaar's poor reactions to the vote strengthened my opinions on it. I'm going to affirm here that I don't think the Slandaar lynch was poorly conceptualized, but in this review I do want to look at those whose votes seem opportune or of little reason. OGML's vote is second and I think it's actually a little bit prophetic with the line "In conclusion, let's try to disingenuously dismiss all criticism out of hand", so I don't take issue with this vote either. ABR's first vote on Slandaar (he unvotes later and then revotes) is just because he is "scummy" without explanation but that's to be expected of ABR at this point isn't it? He does switch to emeraldemon quite quickly afterward but that wagon hasn't really taken off yet so I don't think it's a scummy hop. I'm not sure of Sotty's reasoning for his vote on Slandaar, but it is not permanent I see. It does agree with OGML again which is so very strange and I think Zdenek is right to question it. Aegor, though initially I thought it scummy since he considers lynching Slandaar earlier in 607, actually has decent reasons in this post and 668, especially determining why Slandaar is the best choice out of the suspects. Despite walls on the same page, Brian Skies' vote is pretty reasonless; he notes how Slandaar is "pure evil" but I don't know if that necessarily indicates scum? The Bulbazak vote is reasonless within the post but in 634 he notes Slandaar's poor list construction (the one where he lists people he believes need to post and declares them as scum). I think Brian Skies' reasonless vote is at least in part remedied by transactions between the two on pages 31 and 32. ABR switches back for a second time to Slandaar and this is still not the last; what's even more disconcerting is that he says in this post that his reads are "usually right on the money" but his earlier switch from Slandaar to emeraldemon seemed quite fickle. Zdenek's vote feels right, especially since now Slandaar is all over the place and peaked with that vote switch to emeraldemon; Matias pretty much echoes these sentiments. Zekrom places a vote which I guess changes later, and it's literally reasoned by everyone else's reasons, but given what I've seen on Day 2 I'm not expecting much more. yessiree's vote is kind of pointless to include in this analysis, but for completion's sake, it actually doesn't do much in the way of reasoning, though at this point it is nearing deadline and much of the reasons have been stated and re-stated. I feel this differs from Zekrom's vote because yessiree's feels legitimate whereas Zekrom's feels like he's latching on, though these ideas are admittedly gut feels since there is so little wordage in the vote posts. I don't feel it's worth linking, but ABR switches back to make it L-1 in 929 and then Slandaar self hammers.

From the votes that were left at lynch, I think ABR's wishy-washy voting is the scummiest, but I do think most of the votes off the wagon are more fishy. I never really found Sotty7's vote reasoning for Slandaar very in-depth, and then he switches off the wagon. Zekrom's vote and switch to me before the lynch is also very scummy. emogirl also putting her vote on Brian feels scummy as well. Also Garmr barely touches the Slandaar wagon at all. As for the others, emeraldemon truly does reek of newness, and I am of mixed opinion on his vote on Brian Skies. I could totally see it as scum knowing Slandaar is not scum and thus trying to avoid flak on Day 2 but it really sort of matches emeraldemon's tone from the rest of the day. Despite it being on me, Fonz's vote wasn't really out-of-place and he declared intent to hammer. inHim, kabooooom, and Nobody Special's votes don't really bother me because they were either reading up / away, which could be scum excuses but I doubt it.

So for a concise list ( ) The end-of-day vote count makes me think Sotty7, ABR, emogirl123, Zekrom25, and Garmr are suspicious, in that order.

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Catching up on the rest of the thread because I don't know if I have it in me to do yessiree analysis tonight:

Thor665: Basically, I feel like if you don't read Day 1 before starting Day 2, aren't you essentially starting on Day 1 again? Day 1 in all its Fortune gives town a sense of how everyone is playing and posting, plus a plethora of votes and reasons. That feels condescending to say because I find it so simple.

Matias, continuing this thread of thought, why replace in if you're not going to read? I understand you're trying to be helpful, but not re-reading just means you aren't being helpful to the fullest you can be IMO.

Returning to Thor, Fonz's recap from my perspective at least points out why Day 1 is so important, because I find it so incredibly skewed. My initial reasoning for my emogirl vote is that I found her suspicious plus her lynch would be rife with information. I do realize in retrospect that the initial post lacks on why I thought she was suspicious. Additionally, as I did get close to lynch I reread the whole thread and posted a wall-summary of my thoughts in case I was lynched, and in that summary I clarify that I find emogirl so suspicious because of her playstyle and use of terminology (she said she was purposefully "towntelling", for example). I feel that post is responsible for the wagon dying down. Finally--and this is the thing I was disgruntled with most--at the conclusion of that wall I voted Slandaar, making my vote the first. Not exactly the proudest fact, but it's the truth. I also don't see my and emogirl's wagons as opposed as he does. But of course, I realize that Fonz's post for you is a personal perspective, and once again I do think that it comes from a town player.

In that catchup post, Fonz mentions how emogirl wagon supporters have forgotten about her, and I think there are multiple reasons:
a) most of the suspicion stemmed from her playstyle rather than actual scummy things, but also
b) I reiterate that after her wagon's death she did sort of disappear, and then through the Slandaar/emeraldemon/Brian debate her posts were kind of fluffy (she referenced, out of the blue, an essay on synergy?). I think this is scummy.

I Zdenek's points on Sotty7.

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I will be posting after school today.

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OK. I want to look at yessiree (and WBOCampfire, by association of course) to see what relationships there are. Yes, I know that nightkills are an immense bucket of WIFOM, but I feel it's worth addressing because scum went through some process to pick him, however convoluted and town-countering it may be. WBO has extremely little content; it consists of voting Nobody Special twice based on what appears to be playstyle. Since this is pretty trivial, we move on to yessiree.

After unvoting, yessiree first suspects me and ABR; while no reasoning is provided, I can assume that it is for our votes on emogirl. Sotty "likes" yessiree in 461; on terms of playstyle or as town it is unclear but Sotty7 could clear that up for us. In 487 yessiree gives a read on each player in that strange code format, link. What I get from it is that his reads were as follows:

Town: Aegor, Sotty7, The Goodfather (now inHimshallibe), Bulbazak, Maestro (now Zekrom25), Chevre,
Scum: emogirl123, WBOCampfire1104 (?), Albert B. Rampage, Brian Skies (now Thor665), Acidic_TACO (now Matias)
Mixed: Garmr, Slandaar, Nobody Special?
Null: OhGodMyLife, Maenara (now Zdenek), The Fonz, emeraldemon, kabooooom

he says soon afterward his scumread list is ABR first, followed by Maenara and emogirl. Posts afterward define reasons for ABR including his L-1 vote on me. Sotty in 521 calls yessiree town, so I guess that answers that question. He's also in an altercation with ABR, so right now I'm thinking that the yessiree NK would be a bad choice for scum-ABR. In 569 he points out how Acidic's "random vote" didn't look random to him but instead scummy. In my wall I found yessiree town. In 635 emeraldemon places yessiree in the middle of his reads list. yessiree votes OGML in 638, if I'm correct this due to OGML's change of heart on me, and in the next post he finds emeraldemon scummy as well. In 747 he claims Brian Skies is either scum or horrible town. Brian later quotes part of that post and uses it to claim that yessiree is town. inHim finds the same post by yessiree scummy. The "180 flip" by OGML is brought up again. In 902 we get a new scumlist, or rather, lynchlist, of emeraldemon, Slandaar, and me; Matias is included because of Acidic_TACO but is "read-reset" due to Matias' play.

That's it before his death. I think that yessiree's biggest suspects were emeraldemon and ABR, but I don't see either of these as scum through this analysis. I think a yessiree NK begs for people to look and see "oh look he suspected ABR so he must be scum!!!" and I could see scum-emeraldemon trying to get his group to kill yessiree after his attack yesterday, but I don't think he'd have the pull to do it. Brian Skies is also obvious, though to a lesser extent, in my gut. I think the best answers for this kill would be emogirl, OhGodMyLife, and maybe Matias. emogirl was high on yessiree's suspect list, and while there wasn't much develop on it later in the Day, that's exactly the point I feel: the issue was left hanging. That, to me, seems like an ideal kill for scum: someone who wasn't attacking you hardcore but did suspect you a bit. Same with OGML, their issue on OGML's 180 flip on me was left in the air when OGML refused to find defensive evidence. Matias is a pretty weak choice because yessiree did say that he was now town since it was Matias, but that suspicion caused by Acidic would still probably mingle in yessiree's thoughts.

To conclude, I'm very unlikely to rely on this for the bulk of a vote, because it's only one dead town's perspective (I don't really care to use Slandaar's, given his end-of day retorts and the general lack of reads anyway), but I feel it needs to be done so at least I have somewhere to look back to.

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Catching up:

OGML, I would actually like to see you pull those quotes up that yessiree requested. To remind:

There may have only been two, I'm given to hyperbole and didn't actually go back to read anything at the time I made that post. Regardless, there was enough premature blame pinning for the imminent Chevre flip to trip my sensors.

quotes or didn't happen

Nobody Special, before the lynch you said you were reading up. Did you manage to do that, and did you find anything?

To Garmr's 1027: This is a horrible generalization of my posts. Not

everyone

who wasn't voting Slandaar is suspicious. Additionally, I think Brian Skies is fairly suspicious; I just think most of the votes were placed as though they were avoiding the Slandaar mislynch. Is there another game in which Slandaar and you do your thing? Because I'm not really inclined to believe it from just one example. As for the second part, you seemed to have missed the part where I had mentioned my frustration with replacements not reading. I too agree that Thor665 is a more experienced player than I, but what exactly am I coaching him on in the first place? I'm telling a replacement to read the thread, shoot me now.

Thor665: I get the validity of players who experienced Day 1 discussing it now, but I think there is even more to be attained by you reading it yourself and forming opinions. I think there are plenty of things you need to see, so if you want a list: ISO and skim emogirl to get a sense of where the suspicion was arising from and realize how that could simply be her playstyle; the Bulbazak-emogirl confrontation, the vote-hopping onto emogirl's and mine wagons, ABR vs. Slandaar, and if you weren't replacing him, I'd say Brian v. Slandaar. Is emogirl a good lynch now? I think so, yeah. I do see some scummy things (the quickness of the momentum shift away from her wagon, her end of day play and, though minor, the yessiree kill). I didn't really consider a) to be a good reason.

I'm reluctant to vote Zekrom25, because of his ISO--it's so consistently horrible that I think it is just playstyle. I would vote him for a deadline-pushing compromise lynch though.

emeraldemon: I felt Sotty7 had a weak reason for her initial vote on Slandaar, and then she switched off as it was gaining. It's as simple as that, though I think she made a post recently that made me feel a bit less suspicious about it. And ABR's been like that all game, sure, but I guess if one looks just at Slandaar's wagon, it's an interesting focus because he votes Slandaar 3 different times.

As I just said, Sotty7's reason for her Day 1 votes feels genuine but otherwise she's still super weird. On my reread for yessiree I noticed she found him super-town, and there is the whole OGML-Sotty relationship. Zdenek questioned OGML about it, but he never answered, so I'd like to expand the question to both sides: Do you guys have any previous game relationships that would explain this strange alignment? (Well, up until OGML voted Sotty.

Not seeing ABR scum, at least not today. Garmr is so contrarian to me but it doesn't feel scummy besides the point I made in 1023. I think my best read is

Vote: emogirl123

. I'm still very uncomfortable with the dissipation of her wagon, and again, the points in 1023: her late-Day 1 fluff. Some concrete examples are 813, 821 (I still want to hear the Maestro reasonings even if he's not here), and 838. Additionally the aggressiveness and general rudeness of 955 doesn't feel town.

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ABR twice, Sotty7, and Zekrom25, from my count. I tried to analyze the wagon in 1023.

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Tony PF: I hate your replacing-in-but-not reading mentality but you're not the first in this game to do it; so I'll try to help. 587 and 588 go over things I found in a reread up to page 24, 1023 is my analysis of the end-of-day votecount, and 1118 is my thoughts on the yessiree NK. A simple summary of Day 1 would be that emogirl had a playstyle that many including myself interpreted as scummy behavior, and thus a wagon was ran up on her, until people fussed about my unvote from the wagon in 387, when a wagon was ran up on me. After the 587 and 588 momentum switched from me to Albert B. Rampage, Brian Skies (replaced by Thor665), emeraldemon, and Slandaar, and Slandaar was eventually lynched, and yessiree was the nightkill. Of course, all this information is from my perspective, and in recent pages I've seen how people's perspectives on this game can be very different.

I'm curious as to how you picked out those posts by ABR, if you didn't read the full 46 pages.

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I'm liking Chevre's analysis here. ABR is probably scum, to the point where I can:

Where do you go from "ABR is overconfident and committing a logical fallacy (7for7 tends to be town)" to "ABR is scum"?

Well, the NK was on someone who suspected him(as was mentioned in the analysis). Not to mention the bad logic.

I definitely mentioned this analysis, but I also focused on how this type of reasoning would be incredibly easy in Day 2 so I doubt ABR-scum would kill yessiree.

@emeraldemon:

I find Bulbazak town but I don't think I was really influenced by his reasons for voting emogirl in my vote. I see in 1088 several of our points are the same, but I'm hesitant to trust associative tells when both parties' alignments are up in the air, and I think some of the contradictory and self-image-concerned behavior from her is part of her playstyle. Still, Bulbazak is one of the few people in this game who I feel is both A) town and B) in agreeance with me on various reads. However that recent Aegor vote is really reactionary; like I get it's a bad idea but there's so much require it to even come to fruition that voting someone for it seems silly. It also wasn't a surprising thing to hear from Aegor given his play so far.

Also, since I keep forgetting to address it, the missing word in 1024 was "like", as in "I like Zdenek's points about Sotty7." Reading back, it was really only one point: the one in 1012 about the bad voting record attack from 992.

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Everyone: Top three scumreads. Go.

TonyPF

Garmr

Aegor

I think you should push for my lynch over the other 2 if your scum reading me. You start pushing hard now and we will have our little back and forth town see's your scum and i'm town you get lynched we have a scum flip then I get night killed.

This post is pretty aggressive for a mention of suspicion that isn't even a vote.

OK, just want to point out that kabooooom had no activity between "hey I'm back" and announcing he's V/LA again.

I agree with Fonz's point about Nobody Special--it really bugs me that he's calling me ineffectual town. Zekrom and kabooooom I guess fall into this category of people who I don't even really feel are trying, regardless of alignment.

Tony is following a strategy set out in QT-land to come after me. Emo did the same, and Tony isn't diverging. They want me gone.

At first I was thinking this post was getting way ahead of itself, but come to think of it, emogirl's first post was that chide-y one where she basically insulted all players and voted ABR without reason.

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Yeah, I think Zekrom should be dealt with via replacement. A lynch is a waste for town, and it seems most people are voting him for a playstyle rather than actual suspicions. He did replace Maestro after all, whom little people seem to regard when voting and explaining their vote for Zekrom.

[Chevre]

That's pretty much been my reaction for the last few pages. So much reactionary, illogical thought.

Unvote

for now.

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Aegor, what do you define as a deadline lynch?

[Chevre]

so why is your pledge to join the largest wagon exempt from your apparent disdain for deadline lynches seen in 1364? So deadline lynches are bad but they are better than no lynch? I just don't get what you mean by "advocate a deadline lynch"; it's not like anyone intentionally wants to wait until the last moment and then push a sub-par lynch quickly and shoddily.

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Rereading back a bit (starting on Page 51)

Aegor is all over the place. In 1274 he suggests that he be lynched but also that kabooooom and Zekrom need to be rid of as well. If you're town, why not focus on forming cases for those two instead of pitching martyrdom? His ideological beliefs about the necessity of a lynch are getting in the way of scumhunting, if he is truly town. His voting trajectory from that point, just in the last ten pages mind you, is Zekrom - NS - himself (but really kabooooom/Zekrom) - Thor665 - Zekrom - NS. After all, he voted himself because of the deadline and a desire for a lynch, and then questioned those who are voting him, because apparently those reasons cannot suffice if you don't vote yourself in Aegor-land? He depicts himself as a strong suspect to most of the players yet says that there is little consensus among the players for suspects. Despite a very blunt posting style in my opinion he feels very cloudy and contradictory and that perplexes me.

Zdenek's 1289: I imagine this is suggested later in the altercation between you and Thor but I definitely think there is reason to suspect someone for their vote even if they are voting on the same wagon as you. Maestro's points about Maenara and kabooooom's votes could be defined as "throwing accusations" but that's because the matter of their vote was so simple that there was little more to be said. I do think the vote on kabooooom was truly a bit reactionary.

I find it scummy in 1356 when Garmr attacks Thor specifically for his flip to Aegor when both Tony PF and Bulbazak have previously done so.

Tony PF's 1363 is super bad. Garmr logically attacked his reasoning and he didn't even deny his mistake, he just straight-up fifth-amendment'd. Add to that 1368.

matias ketchup

Vote: Nobody Special

Ideally I'd like to see a lynch on Nero Cain go through due to my suspicions on emogirl and Tony PF but I don't see that happening. I do not think I will vote for ABR because I still feel very strongly that such a lynch is the exact direction scum wanted us to head today.

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At most you two are on equal footing, because Matias replaced in at page 32 or so whereas you have been here for the whole ordeal.

Post Count is a shoddy system of measuring activity anyway, because both of you are guilty of making posts which are simply prod dodges.

[Chevre]

OK well I said in the rollbacked posts that I was going post after the site came back up but I am tired so a more thorough post will have to come later.

Essentially what I'm thinking now is that my points still stand on emogirl/Tony PF/Nero Cain. I'm still hesitant on ABR and I don't really see the case on Bulbazak.

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Analysis of the Day 2 ending votecount:

For reference:

Vote Count 2.14

Nobody Special (9) - The Fonz, emeraldemon, Albert B. Rampage, Aegor, Bulbazak, HighShroomish, Matias, Chevre, inHimshallibe
Albert B. Rampage (3) - Nobody Special, Sotty7, Zdenek
Aegor (1) - Thor665
Nero Cain (1) - Rainbowdash
HighShroomish (1) - Nero Cain
Garmr (1) - Garmr

Not voting (1) - kabooooom

Everything here should be taken with a grain of salt I feel because the wagon was a deadline lynch, and I feel like various votes including my own aren't going to be as fleshed out as truly as a real, "reasoned" wagon would be. Anyway, our NK Fonz's vote takes place quite early, 12 days before the actual lynch, and is reasoned with what I believe are good reasons to stand by, but all of this is pointless I suppose. Right afterward, ABR and Thor665 also vote NS, I believe this was a noted wagon which built up in early Day 2. ABR's vote is based on NS's own vote on himself, which he found calculated. The NS vote is very simple and reasonless and I guess it does come off as rather out-of-place, considering NS had just said he was rereading yet had not really posted any thoughts or even clarified whether he had completed his reread. Thor's vote was basically echoing Fonz's reasons, adding that he thought that NS was on the emogirl wagon and that was another good reason. This was debated in the next few posts but I don't think it was as scum-filled as he thinks, as I'm still very inclined that the slot is scum. The next sticking vote on the wagon is emeraldemon's a week later, which also agrees with Fonz's reason and adds a point about his read switch on me. ABR's true vote is reasonless, surprse surprise, as is Aegor's a few posts later, but this is when he was vote-hopping like crazy in search of the largest wagon, and thus he hopped off and then returned, still the fourth vote on the wagon. The rest of the votes, including my own, come in the final two pages and final two days which is very startling. Bulbazak, High Shroomish, Matias, me, and inhim all in those last few pages of the Day 2.

Essentially, it's a lynch which is very unsettling. I feel like at least one of the last five votes (not including myself) is scum looking to jump on the wagon. I have felt and continue to feel genuine sentiment behind Bulbazak's actions, but the other three I find suspicious. I'm not sure any of them were fully caught up, yet they are a crucial third of this wagon. HS's attempt to tack on a reason of active lurking when it is obviously a part of the reason for votes on NS. Of course, I guess my vote shares this same lack of reason, but from my standpoint obviously I know it was with town intentions, plus I was truly caught up with the game.

The self-voting snafu

I think this something that needs to be greatly addressed, since no less than five people have self-voted. In the midst of all these self-votes, it has gotten this reputation of "oh town shouldn't be doing that but scum

wouldn't

do that" and thus I feel that at least one of the self-voters is scum utilizing this reputation to get by. Aegor's use of it on Day 2 was very theoretical and thus is probably the one I believe most town; Garmr has been pretty consistently reactionary I feel so I can see that making sense, but kabooooom's is really out of place. It definitely felt like a "everybody else is doing it so why not me?" vote. His response to kaboooom's policy vote is near as bad. His last few posts have been declarations of V/LA, followed by statements that he will catch up only to fall back into V/LA, without asking for replacement. I strongly suspect kabooooom at this point.

I want to look back through Fonz's suspicions and see what's up there next.

[Chevre]

Zdenek Re: 1670 - Isn't that a Catch-22? How could he have responded to you in a way that wouldn't seem scummy?

[Chevre]

That's how I feel too.

Zdenek: Your "ideal" response isn't really anything more than what inHim said. He is using what he knows to evaluate the slot. ABR is an integral part of that slot, just as emogirl and Tony PF are facets of the slot now held by Nero Cain. I'm not really suspicious of Nero Cain, but the things the replaced players have done still hold weight and I would vote Nero Cain for those things.

However,

Vote: kabooooom

. I've mentioned my evidence before, and it's most strongly on that self-vote, but I also recall the pregame interaction between emogirl/Garmr/kabooooom. I feel like this theory is near the point of conspiracy since none of them are dead, but there was a giddiness to that early play, it seems like the scumteam by some chance were the first few players to confirm and thus their groupedness led to those interactions? Like I said, pretty farfetched, and useless if one of them flips town, but I have suspicions on all three and it just feels right.

Finally, if anyone is voting ABR over kabooooom simply because it is lurker slot, note this: ABR has asked for replacement (though with the increasing length of the game replace-ins aren't occurring as frequently). Meanwhile, kabooooom has not despite strings of V/LA with no contribution and even acknowledging his own inability to keep up. I understand that you may have true suspicion on ABR behind your vote, but if it's simply a vote to thin the lurker population in this game, there are better options than someone who is in the queue of replacement.

[Chevre]

In addition to Bulbazak's reaction, my biggest hesitance with ABR is that yessiree NK is like a giant glowing neon sign saying "ABR IS SCUM YOU SHOULD LYNCH HIM!!!!"

[Chevre]

*sigh* I've been prodded yet I feel like there's nothing really new to say. I guess I also thought the case on ABR by HighShroomish was also poorly constructed.

I agree that Aegor's switch is weird given that ABR was the leading wagon with his vote.

[Chevre]

@emeraldemon - I think during the first day my read on Aegor was null-leaning-town. He appeared fairly determined and logical in his ways. However, I feel like those qualities spiraled a bit out of hand on Days 2 and 3 so far, where he is so driven to get a lynch that he is wildly swinging his vote from place to place including himself. One thing, that theoretical reasoning is a good cover for his undeniable votehopping. However overall I agree with his theoretical standpoints? And thus he's probably still in the center of my reads list, though now it's much more of a mixed read rather than null.

Zdenek, care to explain your suspicions on me? In return, I guess I find you fairly town though I obviously don't agree with your ABR vote. I do like the point you make in 1804 about Rainbowdash's lynch-lining-up.

[Chevre]

V-LAish conditions due to a broken laptop. I have other methods of posting but they are particularly slow and finicky.

[Chevre]

Update: I've ended up just using my old laptop, but I am busy with schoolwork until tomorrow night. If I don't catch up then, feel free to replace me.

[Chevre]

oops. I suspected approximately 1 person of the actual scum and that was ABR before I got WIFOMED by the scum kill

Good game Huntress! I'm sorry you had to replace me, but hopefully I've learned my lesson and I don't try to play again anytime soon.