Mini 425 Generic Western Mafia- Game over!

[Guardian]

I did a quick reread of all posts with the text 'Peter ' in them.

Peter's posts break down to four categories:
a)Throwing suspicion at me in any way possible.
b) Appearing to be useful by pointing out something that we all should have read.
c) Saying that is is

really OK

for townies to be lynched.
d) Throwing more suspicion at me whenever possible.

His first meaningful post was on page 4, and he didn't really get going until page 9, until he saw someone (me) who he could (continue to) pounce on. He posted maybe once or twice wishing that Avi would lurk less or that mustafa would stop voting like I do, but his posts really show the patterns I mention above.

After realizing that pointing out 'useful' information is really just WIFOM, and can be a scum trait, Peter went from being least scummy to kinda scummy then to most scummy for me.

And really, in any game, it is definitely in the scum's best interests for townies not to believe role claims - get close to lynching a townie, then he role claims power, and then gets lynched anyway.

Also, I find it great how when I point out that I'm not really misrepresenting him and that I in fact genuinely disagree that towns shouldn't play to survive, he decides to agree with the two or three posters who think that the argument should be dropped.

And for him, here, it's a great reason to ask that we drop the subject, but then he attacked me earlier for taking Vel's and gorckat's advice on how to play the game. So basically, what is scummy for me, is natural for him to do?

For these reasons and more, I

Vote: Peter Venkman

.

I find Ichigo (zombie, now) still as being suspicious, and possibly Avi and Occult... but Peter is really not looking like a town to me.

And, as a funny aside: wagon him, and see if he still agrees that it is in the town's interest for him to die. Or that he shouldn't try and live. Or whatever diction he would prefer we use.

[Guardian]

ebwop: thanks John and I agree, zombie please explain in your own words your reasons for your vote on me. I'm sure you have a new perspective on things.

[Occult]

And, as a funny aside: wagon him, and see if he still agrees that it is in the town's interest for him to die. Or that he shouldn't try and live. Or whatever diction he would prefer we use.

Two things:

1) I dislike this statement. You've fought against him for awhile on this and now your asking to use what you took a strong stand against.

2) I see what your saying, but if he was scum it would be in his best interest to act as if its best for town. Your sort of giving him a way to use WIFOM.
--------
Also, peter why are you going at john for wanting reasons for voting? Not giving reasons is scummy in my eyes. Just because zombie voted for guardian doesn't mean only guardian has to respond to it.

[Guardian]

It's an ironic joke to point out how ridiculous it is. Its great for him to say that we shouldn't play to stay alive, but if pressure was on him it would be interesting to see if he would still not try to stay alive...

and make longer posts, dude .

[Occult]

I believe you should make shorter posts. :arrow:

(don't ask about the arrow)

[Peter Venkman]

for him, here, it's a great reason to ask that we drop the subject, but then he attacked me earlier for taking Vel's and gorckat's advice on how to play the game

No, unlike you, I realized this conversation isn't helping the town. Constantly butting heads over a single issue gives the scum an easy out, they don't have to make their own arguments and can just agree or disagree while we make incredibly long posts about nothing.

Its great for him to say that we shouldn't play to stay alive, but if pressure was on him it would be interesting to see if he would still not try to stay alive...

In the event that I do get lynched or night killed, I feel I've made excellent posts that are a true attempt to help the town, and the remaining players will read my posts with a closer eye knowing whatever information the admin reveals.

ebwop: thanks John and I agree

More evidence of you and John supporting each other. I have no idea why players would put such trust in each other at this point.

-Peter

[Guardian]

for him, here, it's a great reason to ask that we drop the subject, but then he attacked me earlier for taking Vel's and gorckat's advice on how to play the game

No, unlike you, I realized this conversation isn't helping the town. Constantly butting heads over a single issue gives the scum an easy out, they don't have to make their own arguments and can just agree or disagree while we make incredibly long posts about nothing.

This assumes that both of us are town. If one of us is scum, isn't it good to give the town this dialogue? And you certainly seem convinced I am scum.

Its great for him to say that we shouldn't play to stay alive, but if pressure was on him it would be interesting to see if he would still not try to stay alive...

In the event that I do get lynched or night killed, I feel I've made excellent posts that are a true attempt to help the town, and the remaining players will read my posts with a closer eye knowing whatever information the admin reveals.

If your making all these attempts to help the town and whatnot, isn't it better for the town for you to stay alive? Yes, there is the absolute confirmation when someone dies, but isn't it much better to convince the town of your being town while alive? You being dead means you can do nothing to further help the town. And if you are town, another town lynch vote is gone. I think every player in the game has an interest to stay alive, at all times.

ebwop: thanks John and I agree

More evidence of you and John supporting each other. I have no idea why players would put such trust in each other at this point.

-Peter

I do nothing to support John in this post, only thank him for asking why paradoxzombie put a vote on

me

, and agree that paradoxzombie's lack of explanation contributes nothing to the game/discussion. I don't feel nor do I see John feeling any of the "such trust" that you are referring to. John is not convinced I'm scum and wanted an explanation, similarly I know I'm not scum and want an explanation, so at least I can further explain my actions. I again see this as you doing anything you can to build a case against me.

...

Again, thoughts on Peter/Ichigo scum pair? Ichigo lurked his way through the game, and Zombie's first action in joining was to jump on the wagon of me that Peter largely started without any explanation.

[Guardian]

ebwop: Wow, I really realize the slip Peter made in my point one above.

Consider: He reasons we should stop the argument because it will let the scum slip onto the vote and lynch one of us, depending on momentum. He continues to keep his vote on me and proclaim that I am scum, but then reasons, in great townielike fashion, that oh now we don't want the scum to slip on and lynch us - BUT he is concinced I am scum!

So the reasoning doesn't make sense - if he truly was a town looking to lynch me, he would want to keep the pressure on with this discussion. BUT, as I point out the flaws in his argument, he decides that maybe that line of logic isn't the best and that we should just drop it.

EVERYONE: maybe I am off here, but reread the first point I made in the above post and really consider if Peter's logic could possibly be from a town perspective - he wants the focus on me as a potential scum, but then decides that the discussion that would make one of us appear scummy and the scum could slip on.

I think what he is really afraid of is that he will start to look scummy and the town will slip on to him. More than anything, I want to hear everyone's opinion about the first point I made above. If people fail to comment on this, I am going to keep bringing it up until people confirm or deny my logic. I really think that Peter's flawed reasoning there, though, gives us great reason to believe he is scum.

[mustafa15]

This is mafia, nobody can ever be absolutely sure that someone is scum or town. Peter's just saying that if you were both town, this might happen. I think Peter thinks you are scum, but he doesn't want to be proven wrong in a brutally violent fashion.

Can we please end the discussion about whether townies should mind dying? It's starting to seriously distract from the game.

[Paradoxombie]

ebwop: thanks John and I agree, zombie please explain in your own words your reasons for your vote on me. I'm sure you have a new perspective on things.

Im not gonna point out individual situations, since they've all blended after 12 pages, so here's a more general explanation.

You've been extremely vocal, which is a pretty scumy tell for a fairly new player, imo. I'm suspicious of many people, but you seem to give off more tells than anyone else(largely since you've posted so much). Arguable, of course, everyone gives off scum tells constantly, but you've played so much maybe Im just getting more.

I could take a risk and vote for a lurker but due to the number of interactions you've made, I'd get more information from your death than any of their's. Im more inclined to vote pro-town and learn what I can from your death than vote for someone who barely posts and learn nothing whether they are scum or not.

I'm flat out admitting that Im not very certain you're scum, but playing in a utilitarian fashion makes you the best lynch imo, and I feel that I'm not gonna learn much more today without going WIFOM. So I've settled on you. I think my reasoning is pretty airtight, but someone could always change my mind.

I have more thoughts I'll reserve, since I feel revealing them would help scum.

[Guardian]

If lynching me even if I am pro-town would in fact help the town, and you are convinced of that, go for it - especially since I need to replace out in about two weeks due to vacation. All my posts have been honest attempts made in the hopes of rooting out scum.

That being said, lynch Peter, rather than me, because I think he is scum and I think lynching scum helps town a heck of a lot more than lynching town.

[Paradoxombie]

I think lynching scum helps town a heck of a lot more than lynching town.

I'll keep that in mind.

[John]

I think lynching scum helps town a heck of a lot more than lynching town.

I'll keep that in mind.

Haha. funny.

anyway.

@peter> Im not defending guardian. i just wanted to know why other were voting for him, is that too much to ask for? Am I wrong for wanting an explination? Maybe you could convince me that he is scum, but you choose to attack me instead of explaining anything which calls for a

FoS: Peter

. Unlike you, i think we should try much harder to lynch a mafia member at this point than just to give up now and say "fuck it, lets see what happens when we kill the most frequent poster", which looks like to me what you want at this point. we need to try harder than we are. If you give me a list of scummy things Guardian has done, he can rebuttle and if he gives unsatifactory answers, we will lynch him. But the way you have been posting about me and guardian, it seems you woud rather skip the rebuttle and go right for the kill.

I also acknolage the fact that if Guardian lynched and he turns up mafia, im public enemy #1 on d2.

[Occult]

Again, thoughts on Peter/Ichigo scum pair?

I think its a bit of a stretch at the moment. Ichigo's posts had no content in it and zombie gave alternative reasons for voting you.


And I agree with mustafa, the conversation has gone on long enough.
But it gave a lot of information and guardian is looking less scummy in my eyes.

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but every time I go over avi's posts i'm getting mostly scum vibes, I'm not just refering to the lurking. He's given bad logic for his votes, bad defenses for acusations and posts with absolutly no content at all.

[Occult]

I'll give zombie a few more posts before I make an oppinion on him.

[John]

Avi is either really bad town or really bad mafia, but his content sucks so bad that he blurs the line between the two.

[Raffles]

I'm in an agreement with musfata here, the fact that Guardian think townie should be afraid of dying is very much a mafia theory which is only vaguely related to context of the game. (I'm sorry if it is a bit of a coarse overview, I started skimming the argument after halfway through) It will certainly give us no help concerning determining one's alignment.

[Occult]

Again, thoughts on Peter/Ichigo scum pair?

And I agree with mustafa, the conversation has gone on long enough.
But it gave a lot of information and

guardian

is looking less scummy in my eyes.

I typed in the wrong name by mistake so
EBWOP:

Peter

is looking less scummy IMO.

[Raffles]

@Occult: Why is Peter looking less scummy? Does that imply you are finding guardian more scummy of the two?

[Occult]

Yes,
-I agree more with peter's stance.
-This conversation is getting away from finding scum. Peter wanted to end it as it was a distraction. While guardian wanted to keep it going.

Im not saying in anyway peter is not mafia. But from this debate i feel peter came off less scummy.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Yes,
-I agree more with peter's stance.
-This conversation is getting away from finding scum. Peter wanted to end it as it was a distraction. While guardian wanted to keep it going.

Im not saying in anyway peter is not mafia. But from this debate i feel peter came off less scummy.

Occult, I can see the opposite side of this argument just as well.

Assume Peter is scum. He went after Guardian for a bit of a nit-picky reason (Guardian's stance that Town players should play to live). This is a fairly hot debate, and others have had this exact same conversation before us, and people will have this conversation after us. But to keep going after someone for such a personal issue is a bit like arguing about gun-control or abortion rights - it's difficult to sway someone's opinion in this case.

I get the impression that Peter kept hitting this as one of his only arguments for Guardian as scum, and when the rest of the players didn't jump on, he said "ok nevermind, this is distracting". A change of tack was warranted if Peter is scum because he isn't getting the necessary town reaction.

I haven't gone back through and done a proper re-read (which I need to do) but this is the overall impression I get of the Peter/Guardian interaction. If there's something in there that I haven't seen I'll change my opinion with a later post after the re-read is done.

I'm still itching to hear more from Ichigo, Avi and DLMF. It's really sad that we have this many inactive players.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

EBWOP: Take Ichigo out of that last sentence. Sorry folks I had forgotten that he got replaced.

[John]

To me, the most likely scumpair to me are Peter/Avi.

[Occult]

John can you eleborate on the connection between the two?
Because I really don't see it.

[Peter Venkman]

when the rest of the players didn't jump on, he said "ok nevermind, this is distracting".

I don't play to win friends here. I wasn't expecting a pile on, nor do I think that is necessarily appropriate. I am making my arguments and presenting them to the town.

I think it is interesting that Guardian is attempting to divide the town over what is essentially an argument over

style of play

.

Regardless, I feel everything that can be said on the subject has been said and I'm willing to let it go. I suspect Guardian will feel the need to get the last word in on the subject, and challenge me on a few more points, but I will not reply. We have wasted enough pages on this subject and the town can make up their own minds.

If the lurking players are scum, we have given them a curtain to hide behind. If the lurking players are not scum, than a large percentage of the present players

are

scum, and that gives them more influence than normal.

-Peter