Mini 436 - Game over - Mafia wins with no casualties!

[Miztef]

Vote: VanDamien

3 excellent reasons I got here:

1. posted just before me

2. already has some votes on him

3. Cause I have no idea what the ---- his avatar is.

That is all.

[Miztef]

Vote Miztef

for saying "that is all" at the end of his post

I'm trying to make it my "thing" and hopefully, sometime in the distant future future, people will be like:

A: ...ugly babies are born. That is all.
B: That's so what Miztef would, say, Miztef is so cool, I wish I could meet him.

But I'll be rich and famous, so no one will be able to meet me anyway

[Miztef]

...That is all.

[Miztef]

sorry for the triple post. I forgot to bold

Vote: VanDamien

That

is all.

[Miztef]

based on what's happened so far, I

unvote vote: StallingChamp

. He got a bit too close to a quick lynch and was just bandwagoning.

I'm not sure what to think of snichkin's "I just want to prove a point" tatic, so I don't think it's worthwhile to vote him.

that is all.

[Miztef]

Hey, whoa.... did we lose some posts? I assumed StallingChamp was the last one to vote for VanDamien but I can't find ryan or vollkan's vote.

[Miztef]

Hey, whoa.... did we lose some posts? I assumed StallingChamp was the last one to vote for VanDamien but I can't find ryan or vollkan's vote.

Page 1 is my vote, I just checked it's still there

ah, right there at the start. So it's just vollkan's that was a mistake? I'll just stick with StallingChamp then, until something changes my mind.

[Miztef]

Well, Well, a random wagon for absolutely no reason!

There's nothing to defend, as I haven't done anything even slightly scummy. What do you five hope to gain by running up the votes on a townie? Hunting for a power role, maybe?

No one has done anything really scummy yet. I switched my vote to stallingchamp only because he was the last on the bandwagon. We are only digging for information here, I doubt you are going to get lynched completely randomly.

Also, it seems the vote count had an error in it and only 4 people had voted you at the time.

It seems a second mostly random bandwagon is starting now though.

[Miztef]

Well, Well, a random wagon for absolutely no reason!

There's nothing to defend, as I haven't done anything even slightly scummy. What do you five hope to gain by running up the votes on a townie? Hunting for a power role, maybe?

The only way to really get information this early in the game, unless someone really screws up and says something stupid, is by randomly bandwagoning someone.

HurriKaty,
While you're at it, can you please state which information you learned from this wagon please?

She's telling the truth. Random bandwagoning is the normal way to start a game. Votes are the only tool most people can use during the day, and so it's a good idea to use them. The scum are not just gonna screw up out of the clue (normally, that is), it's usually when a scumbuddy is about to be lynched or even just anyone is about to be lynched that the most information is slipped.

[Miztef]

We need more participation in this game. Come on people, start posting!

[Miztef]

ok well, I'll post some of the notes I've made about this game, and see if I get a reaction .

- There is nothing about Rampage that is very scummy, so stop trying to make a bandwagon on him. ok? ok.

- darhken, vollkan and deathsauce are on my "could be lurking" lists, so voting for them can be fun!

- Hurrikitty has said little to add to the contributions, but meh, I don't think she's lurking.

-paradox managed to vote hop in his whole of 2 posts.

-ryan posted alot, but there really isn't much to go on in his posts, I'm a tad suspicious.

-I don't like snichkin's "I'm trying to prove a point" attitude, but it seems more pro-town to me then scummy

- VanDamien defended from his bandwagon with "Trying to lynch a power role" attitude, when it wasen't even a real lynching bandwagon, or at least not meant to be. This seems kinda suspicious.

- StallingChamp is the player I'm voting for because he was last on the vandamien bandwagon. A little too close to a lynch for me. That also was his only post, so he could be lurking. Quite scummy.

That is all.

[Miztef]

well, now that we are all getting along, should we vote for snichkin and see what happens? he seems to be the one that is tingling people's scumdars.

Or we could go after a lurker to try to get this game moving?

[Miztef]

I disagree that there is nothing scummy about Rampage. His "joky" behavior on page one and two is something I have seen from scum, and seen referenced in other games.

Rampage and Miztef seem to be backing each other up an awful lot.

In post 47 Rampage quotes Miztef (and Hurrikaty) and simply says "QFT".

Post 52 Miztef writes " There is nothing about Rampage that is very scummy, so stop trying to make a bandwagon on him. ok? ok." I don't like this statement at all.

Post 56 Rampage says "I like DeathSauce and Miztef, but don't trust Snichkin"

Post 58 Rampage says to ryan "That's because you and Miztef summed things up pretty well"

I also don't like that they are asking for lists of how you feel about other players. That is a tactic used by scum to help them decide who to NK.

Since my vote on A.B.R was random, I will

unvote

.

But I have my FOS on the two of you.

The jokey lines by Albert are really nothing reliable in terms of being scummy or not, a town or scum could have said it equally.

You take off your vote on Albert, a random vote at that, and state that you don't like my line about not bandwagoning Albert. Isn't that a bit odd?

[Miztef]

Unvote Vote: Snichkin

for reasons mentioned in StallingChamps post 66 (rule breaking is a definate no no in my books).

I disagree with ABR's reason to vote vanDamien, and would rather wait for snichkin's reaction to this vote.

[Miztef]

Snichkin is at L-2 everyone. So, please consider your vote carefully, I don't want to lynch him right now, just want more of an explaination.

[Miztef]

- Hurrikitty has said little to add to the contributions, but meh, I don't think she's lurking.

I'm here, I've just been busy. And I actually really tend to lurk day 1, I'll admit that. Mostly just because its so early I really have nothing to say.

And damn, how many times have I been called HurriKitty? Like 50? Is it really that hard to read my name?

sorry. hellokitty -> hurrikitty, it's already been engraved in my mind. .

It's understandable to lurk, but it tends to be a scum tatic, so it would be nice to have contributions from everyone.

(funny enough that I don't lurk and get lynched quickly most games, scum or town)

[Miztef]

I follow VanDamien's line of thinking perfectly clearly.
Contrast these two statements from you:

Statement 1 at 5:30pm :

Expect (the) mafia allies to put their vote and hammer this dude.(Snichkin)

Statement 2 at 5:42 pm

vote: Snichkin

You seem to be predicting your own scummy vote.

vote:Albert B. Rampage

for being the scummiest player I have ever seen. Every single post he makes just makes my spidey sense go into 4 alarm mode.

I didn't understand vanDamien's reasoning at first, so thanks for clearing it up. This is an obvious contridiction, and I find it hard to believe a pro-town player would make this error. I would really like to hear an explaination from snichkin, but Albert is more scummy in my books and so...

Unvote Vote: Albert B. Rampage

[Miztef]

Hahaha you

need

people like me. You need people like me so you can point your fingers, and say "

that's

the bad guy." So, what'll that make you? Good? You're not good. You just know how to hide, how to lie. Me, I don't have that problem. Me, I always tell the truth... even when I lie. So say goodnight to the bad guy.

omg. That's one heck of a statement. Is it a quote? It reminds me of some movie or something.

1) I don't understand who your saying it to. (vanDamien? DeathSauce? Me? Everyone?)

2) It's weird and contridictary ("I always tell the truth... even when I lie" WTH?!?!)

3) What do you mean by "Say goodnight to the bad guy.", Who is the bad guy? Are you a day vig and going to kill that person? or, are you leaving the game?

[Miztef]

It's a quote from Scarface

LOL. well then.... this is odd... (I'm a total movie geek too, never seen scarface though).

I still don't like it.

[Miztef]

Care to explain the "worse vibes" comment in further detail? I wouldn't mind seeing some reasoning behind votes at this point. I think we are past the random stage.

Read her posts. All three of them.
Post 1 - nothing
Post 2 - generic statement, which, albeit truthful, doesn;t advance our scumhunting in any way. When I called her for specific conclusions, there was no response.
Post 3 - trips over herself defending her own day 1 lurking.
I see this as enough "vibes" for a solid non-random day 1 vote.

I understand your reasoning behind voting katy, but I'm not jumping on that bandwagon yet. Rampage's crazy posts and flawed logic really bugs me and I'm sticking to my vote.

IGMEOY HurriKaty

[Miztef]

I do not agree with tophat's post. It is possible that ryan/hurrikaty are mafia, but your evidence does not "confirm" it.

Albert is still my vote for now. I'm also gonna throw out there a

IGMEOY Tophat

[Miztef]

Let me ask you this Miztef, is it possible that Tophat and Hurrikaty are mafia and he's trying to throw blame at both of us hoping a bandwagon will start on me? (risky yes, but still possible) Thoughts?

It's possible that any of the three of you are mafia. I severly dislike tophat's post about hurrikaty and you being mafia, and he is my "top" pick for scumminess between you three. I don't like hurrikaty's lack of posts, but I'm not gonna lynch her over it at this time at least. I am pretty much on the fence for you though, more info is needed to be more accurate.

Also, I really don't like albert's "proving a point antics" as an excuse for his scumtells, but it is possible, especially considering the excessive amount of bad play. That is why my vote sticks. (for now)

[Miztef]

Take it as what it is. A tell.

Don't dig further, there is nothing beyond it. I'm as pro-town as they come.

I just don't like this. Albert makes a massive statement (Ryan and Miztef are town), then gives no explanation other than that he is pro-town and not to dig into it. Albert may be pro-town and may have a good basis for his statement, but without reasoning it just seems suspicious.

/agree

Albert's reasoning is plain invalid. You shouldn't make a scumtell on purpose for the point that people making scumtell's are not always scum. It forces everyone to think in WIFOM terms and that always causes confusion.

To me, this is a modified version of when LAL should be used. It's LACPTTPARPP. (Lynch all Crazy Trying To Prove A Ridiculous Point Players)

[Miztef]

Nah, I'm tired. No explanation until day 2 for you.

This is a god awful defence, I /agree entirely with vanDamien's comment on this.

[Miztef]

Do whatever you please, believe what you will.

I will be the last one laughing.

no matter what alignment you are, being lynched is bad. Hence, this does nothing but reinforce my suspicions. You will not be the last one laughing.... you'll be first one dead.

[Miztef]

Your strategy in this game is just insane Rampage. I want to believe your scum due to the tells, but my gut tells me your pro-town. This just frustrates me alot, and it helps me little to discern who the scum may be.

I'm going to have to keep my vote on you because I dislike the way your playing, and I don't think it should be tolerated as a pro-town way of playing.

Mod edit
Votecount:
Albert B. Rampage 5 (DeathSauce, Miztef, Paradoxombie, VanDamien, vollkan)
Snichkin 2 (StallingChamp, Ryan)
Deathsauce 1 (HurriKaty)
StallingChamp 1 (Snichkin)
Hurrikaty 1 (TopHat)

Not voting: Albert B. Rampage, darhken

With 12 alive it takes 7 votes to lynch.

[Miztef]

well... this is just great. I'm going to have to think on this for a while before I move forward.

I'll

unvote

for the time being though.

[Miztef]

Here's my propsal with Albert B. Rampage:

We wait till day 2. If he is scum, then he is very unlikely to have been NKed, if he is not then hopefully a doc or something saves him. Assuming he survives the night, we lynch him day 2, If what he states is precisely true, we should have the most suspious person be forced to hammer him, or lynch them instead. That way, both alberts kills can be used to our advantage. If he's scum, he dies anyway.

[Miztef]

Here's my propsal with Albert B. Rampage:

We wait till day 2. If he is scum, then he is very unlikely to have been NKed, if he is not then hopefully a doc or something saves him. Assuming he survives the night, we lynch him day 2, If what he states is precisely true, we should have the most suspious person be forced to hammer him, or lynch them instead. That way, both alberts kills can be used to our advantage. If he's scum, he dies anyway.

This is wrong on so many levels that I don't even know where to start. How about I start with "If we intend to lynch him on day 2 anyway, why waste a doc protection on him??".
Anyway, if we think ABR is a likely scum, the correct play is to direct our vig to hit him. Before this day ends, each player needs to say whether they want ABR vigged or not.

I'll elaborate:

I think it's

better

if he's lynched. though him getting NKed is fine.

On day 2 we will have more of an idea who is scum. Therefore, if albert is still alive, we lynch him. We ask the most suspicious person to hammer him. That way, if he's telling the truth, we kill the person we think is most likely scum and albert can choose another person he thinks is scummy and we get another likely scummy person killed. Hence, we use his ability to our advantage rather then just let him die. Plus, even if he's scum, there's no harm done to the town.

I'm actually happier with a day 1 lynch of you Tophat. Your latest comments have been especially suspicous to me.

[Miztef]

I don't think Miztef meant he ACTUALLY wants 7 people to pile onto Tophat and lynch him, more that he just suspects Tophat at the moment.

For now, I am ambivalent to this plan. It doesn't seem to have anything wrong with it; but that could all change if someone raises a valid objection.

Care to elaborate regarding Tophat, Miztef?

of course, and you are correct that I am suspicious of Tophat.

My suspicion stems from this post:

I have recently been mafia in a game on another site, and I'm proud to say I made some mistakes and learned from them. And when I say "learned", I don't only mean learned not to repeat them, I also mean learned to identify those who make the same mistakes.

So, short version: ryan and Hurrikathy are scumpartners.

Long version: in his big analysis post (#55), ryan devotes FOUR WHOLE LINES to Hurrikathy (more than to anyone else), despite the latter only having 2 posts, both fairly meaningless. Not only that, but (with respect to HK), he comes to no conclusion altogether. This

OVERANALYSIS WITH NO CONCLUSION

is a scumbuddy tell, and I know it is, because I made it previously myself with respect to my own scum partners in another game (luckily, that time nobody noticed).

At this point, I would really like to see one of them bandwagoned into a claim. That's all for now.

Clearly invalid logic is used here, and that is understandable, but I kept on eye on him.

I've seen enough to

unvote, Vote Albert B. Rampage

.
Whether a scum or a townie deliberately trying to be unhelpful, he's good enough for a day 1 lynch.

He is the last one to vote albert b. rampage and it seems to be a mostly bandwagoning vote, but again, not all too suspicious in itself.

This is wrong on so many levels that I don't even know where to start. How about I start with "If we intend to lynch him on day 2 anyway, why waste a doc protection on him??".
Anyway, if we think ABR is a likely scum, the correct play is to direct our vig to hit him. Before this day ends, each player needs to say whether they want ABR vigged or not.

This is what put me over the line. Complete dismissal of my idea, or any idea at that, is not very pro-town to me, he then states "the correct play..." but who is to say that's the correct play? This whole post seems to me like scum manipulation. (Why is he so sure there is a vig anyway? It's not

that

common of a role)

[Miztef]

Also, after reading the link provided by our moderator I would like to call attention to this point:

All I can say is that this game follows the normal game rules

A normal game does not have to have any other roles other than Mafia and Townies. If it includes other roles, they should mostly be considered standard, such as Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Traitor, Serial Killer.

"Psychopath" is in no way a standard role. I think that puts the lie to ABR's claim once and for all.

That is quite the point, and I am also inclined to believe the claim is a lie because of lawrencelot's post.

However, there is still a chance it is a possible, and I believe we should ask a person the majority of us agree is scummy to hammer him. That way, if he is telling the truth, we at least used his power to the best of our ability, with the least risk.

[Miztef]

I believe albert. It seems way too crazy to be a mafia ploy, and even if it is, he's gonna die at some point anyway.

I am happy with lynching Tophat most today, and therefore will

vote: TopHat

[Miztef]

jeez,

vote: TopHat

[Miztef]

sry missed that.

Prefferably not, as I am pro-town, but if it came to me being seen as the most scummy, I would have to, or else you would lynch me instead of albert (that's how I see it as working anyway). In that case, as a pro-town player, it would be better to hammer albert myself, because if he is scum, thats good. If he is experimental pyschopath then we get a free vigilante kill.

[Miztef]

the only really bad situation is if he is a scum pyschopath or a jester role. Then we are in a bit of trouble.

[Miztef]

The thing is, VanDamien, if you don't get lynched today, you have a chance of getting away.

If I don't get lynched today, I have 0% chance of getting away the next.


Do you understand this ??

How? I thought I would die as soon as I hammer you?

Rampage is saying that he wants you just plain old lynched. He is certain you are scum, yes, but he doesn't want his power to be used on you because it would kill another player, who may not be scum.

I don't know for sure if you are scum, but I see it as a definate possibly, and since no one else seems to think topHat is scum (which, to be fair, there isn't all that much evidence) I am willing to switch my vote if others agree with rampage.

[Miztef]

I'm glad albert aproves of my plan for him.
I would like to use the plan and therefore I disapprove of lynching albert today.

So, the question remains... who to lynch today? Paradoxombie seems to be a new choice, along with tophat, vandamien, and possibly stallingchamp. I'm really not sure who is the best choice atm. I'm leaning towards paradoxombie myself, after his recent antics.

[Miztef]

I must completely disagree with your post paradox:

Killing ABR today is a bad idea. Even if he is scum, we will get him tomorrow with a much better idea of who is scum.

If he concedes that there is a pyschopath, the likelyhood of another crazy role

goes down

. This is a normal game, which means abnormal roles should only be placed very sparingly, and therefore, if there is 1 then another one becomes less likely.

At this point, paradox has become my vote for today.

unvote, vote: Paradoxombie

[Miztef]

Miztef: I'm wondering if ABR could be a cop, are you feelin that? Or just that he is a townie?

It's 'possible' he's a cop, but I really doubt it. On LAL priciple, we'd have to lynch him if he claims cop anyway.

He is almost certainly not a townie.

To me, He is most likely his pyscopath role, next most likely is an anti-town psycopath-like role, and next is scum.

It's somewhat irrelevant if he is scum, as we'll lynch him tommorow anyway. He also could be a jester/suicide bomber type role, but I'm not getting that vibe either.

[Miztef]

The hammering flaw is easily resolvable imo: Force them, or lynch them. at L-1 a power role will claim anyway, so I see no difference in this situation. If the person is scum, There is no huge advantage to being lynched over being the hammerer.

If the scum hammer, they kill 1 Pro-town role, kill themself, and give the town a chance for another kill.

If the scum instead choose to be lynched, only they get killed.

I don't see them at an advantage by lynching themselves over hammering.

We know ABR should be killed at some point. I do not want him alive in the end game, and I don't think anyone else does, it's too much of a risk. The only way to guarentee his death then is by a lynch.

[Miztef]

I agree with vollkan here. Ryan, why did you vote ABR when you acknowledged a day 2 lynch as better?

I think ryan is a candidate for lynching today. That slip up, with the addition of albert's points, are really building up a case. Although, most of this can be accounted for by inexperience. Paradox has made mistakes too, but I can see alot of this is inexperience as well.

Right now, I'm actually leaning towards lynching a lurker. Snichkin had that early mess-up, darhken just plain hasen't posted much, and Stallingchamp hasn't posted too much either. I'm going to go with

unvote vote: Snichkin

. His early screw up and then dissapearing act bugs me the most of all the lurkers.

[Miztef]

sorry. Forgot about the replacements...

unvote vote: poison ivy

[Miztef]

The signifigance of surviving an extra day is simple. More information. I don't want to kill albert until d2 where we have a much better scope of the game. Killing him today runs the risk of 5:3 which is a

lose

. Therefore, killing him today is not an option for me, I'd much rather lynch someone else, or even no lynch if it comes to albert or no lynch.

[Miztef]

@dogmom:

earlier in the game I considered hoping for ABR to be NKed, which is the absolute safest way to be rid of him. However, we cannot be absolutly assured of a vig today, and not tommorow either, unless a cop claims today, reveals the vigs identity and then dies so we know he is a cop. So basically, it's unlikely we will ever "know" if there is a vig, and therefore we cannot go on with the assumption we could get him NKed, at any point. It is much safer to plan to lynch him at this time.

[Miztef]

I am working under the assumption albert is pro-town pyscopath atm. Sorry about the N0 cop claim thing, mixed up with another game.

[Miztef]

Hurrikaty's posts are the absolute definition of lurking.

I agree, and I really am sorry, I've just forgot about Mafiascum lately, and I'm trying, I really am, it just seems whenever I come back theres 50 more pages to read.

It would really help if someone could sum up the game in like.. one post for me, so far.

The ultra quick summary is that the game can be mostly boiled down to "Should we believe ABR?" and "What is the best way to be rid of him?". There have been people wanting him lynched today, tommorow, some people want him vigged, some people want to make use of his ability, some people don't believe him at all.

Bascially, we just have to decide what is the best course of action to deal with ABR, and then we'll get to who to lynch.

[Miztef]

I tried to be the least biased I could with my explaination, but I agree with deathsauce, you shouldn't believe any 1 player's interpretation of the game.

Right now I would like some explaination from the lurkers. Hurrikaty is 'ok' in my books, but I would like some real content soon from her. I'm happy with posion ivy until he/she posts.

[Miztef]

sorry, I meant "I'm happy with posion ivy as my vote until he/she posts.*

[Miztef]

Glad to see you back in the game SC. I too am suspicious of paradox, but the lurkers are my greatest concern right now. That is why I will keep my vote on Ivy until I see some posts.

[Miztef]

This is a doozy for sure. However, it is good to know that even at worst possible case, if we lynch albert today, we wont auto lose.

And after all that, I say waiting until tommorow to *maybe* lynch albert is our best bet. I'm sticking with Ivy until he/she posts.

[Miztef]

I'm not going to vote katy, but I do agree that more productivity is needed from her. As DogMom pointed out, she has posted very little content throughout the game.

I'm still waiting to hear from Ivy though, until something changes that (ivy posts, is replaced, reason for not posting explained) I will keep my vote on Ivy.

[Miztef]

@ryan: My vote on Ivy is not really because I think he/she is scum, it is because I want some content from Ivy before I lynch someone.

Snichkin was the first person really suspected in this game, and I don't think letting Ivy lurk the entire D1 is of any help to the town. I dislike Hurrikaty's lurking, but I'm getting the feeling she will post content soon anyway, I don't feel there is a need to pressure her more at this time.

[Miztef]

I only defend her because so many of you try to say how scummy she is all the time, where as I don't believe so. She may be lurking, but I think thats due to personal reasons not as a game strategy. Until I see some decent evidence against hurrikaty, or the lurking proves to be quite intentional, I'm not voting her.

Mod edit
Votecount:
Hurrikaty 4 (DeathSauce, VanDamien, DogMom, Albert B. Rampage)
Albert B. Rampage 2 (Paradoxombie, ryan)
Paradoxombie 1 (vollkan)
Poison Ivy 1 (Miztef)
StallingChamp 1 (Poison Ivy)
DeathSauce 1 (StallingChamp)

Not voting 2: Tophat, Hurrikaty

With 12 alive it takes 7 votes to lynch.

[Miztef]

I dislike Hurrikaty's lurking, but I'm getting the feeling she will post content soon anyway, I don't feel there is a need to pressure her more at this time.

If she were not to post any content from here to a week from now exactly (monday 27th), would you be willing to vote for her Miztef ?

It depends on whats happening in the game. But, if no one's posistion in the game changed during that 1 week period I would most likely vote for hurrikaty, because I would find Ivy more likely to be not interested in the game, where hurrikaty has promised us content soon. Making Hurrikaty the more scummy of the 2.

[Miztef]

I don't know hurrikaty personally, but she is the moderator in another game I am in, and her posts coincide with her posts in that game, which leads me to believe she just hasn't had the time to fully post.

Everyone, including myself, is a potential hammerer for the ABR lynch (if it comes to that).

[Miztef]

So, does that mean the plan is to lynch hurrikaty?

I'm willing to vote her today if she doesn't post within the next 24 hours. I am inclined to agree with death and ryan in this situation, that katy's lurking has become quite the fiasco.

[Miztef]

I've still got one more agruement to bring up....
I feel there is a 10% chance she is some sort of suicidal role that wants to be lynched. Before I drop the hammer I just want to hear 1 or 2 opinions on the possibility of her being some sort of "get lynched" role.

[Miztef]

Unvote Vote: Hurrikaty

_____
__ |_____|
|__|=====\= |____| /
\\|_____|//
HurriKaty


Sorry, but she hasen't posted, and I must agree that 2 Jester roles is quite unlikely.

[Miztef]

what the picture was supposed to look like... (forgot to preview)
......................_____
.__................|_____|
|__|=====\= |____|../
..................\\|_____|//
||||||||||||||||HurriKaty||||||||||||||||

[Miztef]

I'd like to say that I'll be gone the rest of the weekend...

besides that I'd like to say...

OMFG, we lost the doctor and cop! What an insane D1/N1. Did anyone even guess Albert was a doctor?!?!

[Miztef]

Two deaths.

I just think it'd be a little overtaxing on the town if there were two full mafia factions.

A vig wouldn't have killed dogmom, she was so overwhelmingly helpful. And I had thought everyone had come to some sort of agreement to let albert get to Day 2 at the least.

It's possible the vig killed albert because he/she was against albert right from the start and believed he was lieing. As stated eariler in the thread, the safest way to kill albert is at night, and maybe the vig felt this was his/her chance.

I personally don't see why an SK would want to kill Albert, maybe an SK would kill DogMom though, and the mafia killed albert.

[Miztef]

I personally have found vollkan very pro-town, and vandamien's evidence against him is not very true, as vollkan pointed out, he was asking people if there were any possibilities they wished to state, and I responded to it just to put any other possibilities out on the table.

At this time I am not heavily suspicious towards anyone.

[Miztef]

Right now, I have no major suspects, only some minorly scummy ones. Until I find/see some real evidence against someone, I don't think I'll be rushing into a lynch today.

I don't feel bad about lynching hurrikaty. She was being unresponsive and causing great confusion with her "I'm lurking, sorry, but I'll post soon" posts. I feel it was a good choice made by the town. That's why it's hard to decide on suspects in this case, scum could have quite easily slipped into the bandwagon or not been on the katy lynch at all.

Some other notes:

Although I don't find truegossip's posts very scummy, snichkin and PI were both high on my scumlist at some point, so I think I'll keep an eye on him.

VanDamien's latest posts have made me slighty more suspicious of him, Jumping to vote Vollkan of all people seems a bit unreasonable. I myself have found vollkan quite helpful, and have little reason to vote him.

I'd like more content rich posts from ryan. It seems like only 1/10 of his posts have much real content.

I'm fairly suspicious of Paradoxombie today. Yesterday it seemed he was adamant on killing ABR and many of his posts became irrational and emotional. He then switched to hurrikaty in the end, stateing that:

Wow, I gotta say, I didn't think any possible occurance could ever convince me to vote anyone but ABR, short of a believable cop claim

It looks like I was very wrong

Vote: HurriKaty

just wow

it is unfortunate, though, that we'll get essentially no clues from her death if she is scum

Since both these players have been found as town, it leads me to believe it is possible he is scum attacking the most viable bandwagon.


I feel that paradox/VanDamien/Truegossip are the players to watch out for today. Also, SC's replacement will be under my gaze of suspicion as well, based mostly on low content.

Mod edit
Votecount:
Vollkan 1 (VanDamien)
DeathSauce 1 (ryan)

Not voting: DeathSauce, TopHat, Miztef, Paradoxombie, Trustgossip, StallingChamp, vollkan

With 9 alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.
I am looking for a replacement for TopHat and StallingChamp. As I understood it, StallingChamp is banned from the site.

[Miztef]

OK, I am day late, and I wish I had something grand and earthshaking to say, but SO MANY of the pages of this thread are about ABR!

I felt that he was probably scum, and I was suspicious of those who seemed interested in letting him live until Day 2, because I didn't understand the motivation. It is obvious now why ABR was so determined to make any deal that would let him survive until Day 2, and I'm a little upset with myself for pointing out that that seemed to be his main goal, because it may have tipped off the scum about his true role.

We're probably either 6:3 or 5:3:1.

Wouldn't it have to be 5:3:1? Obviously there are 2 Night killing entities. That's why I thought it was dangerous to come out with a vote immediately after night. If you are town then the 3:1 can quicklynch on Day 2. I'd rather have a few more pages of discussion before anyone votes.

It's possible there is a vig which makes it 6:3. We are still in trouble no matter what the situation though. We lost 2 huge power roles and could be in LYLO.

[Miztef]

Ok, it's time to push more info out of people. I think paradox or VD are a good start, so I'll flip a coin and.....

Vote: Paradoxombie

(because I got heads)

[Miztef]

I'd still like to see some pressure on paradox. He's one of my top suspects right now.

I'm also anxious to hear what VD's new vote is going to be and his explaination behind it.

[Miztef]

A little upfront with your opinion there aren't you VD?

just a few posts ago you were voting vollkan, yet now you basically saying you're fairly sure Paradox and DeathSauce are scum? Just seems a bit off to me, however I do agree that paradox and deathsauce are fine suspects.

Out of Vollkan or Trust, I want to say Trust is the more scummy, but frankly, I don't find either all that suspicious.

[Miztef]

@ VD: well, you... but if that's true then more then likely 1 or none of your suspects are scum.

Therefore, I'd have to say I find you, DeathSauce, and Paradox the most scummy, but not likely to be a scumgroup together. My forth choice would have to be a tie between Trust/ryan at this time.

[Miztef]

I believe this game needs more evidence overall. We should start bandwagoning/voting with intent to lynch people we find scummy and get some more information.I've already tried paradox, but he's seems to busy to defend himself at this time anyway. I'll try up to try deathsauce or VD next. If not them, then Ryan or Trust are fine with me as well.

I'll send out a

unvote vote: DeathSauce

first, as some people already agree with me that he is one of the scummier ones. (Vollkan, ryan, VD)

Some of the evidence against DeathSauce can be read in post 514 by ryan. I will try to further build the case.

DeathSauce: Thinks ABR is town (215) Wants to get new players imput to get some fresh perspective. Finds VD made a quick vote on ABR’s death and is suspicious. 502 again seems distracting and not much into finding scum. Basically just about ABR, being gone and doesn’t have anything to say. Also brings up the setup (again) eventually we are going to have to worry more about scum instead of the setup and numbers that are counterproductive and done (IMO) to look active when you really aren’t.

[Miztef]

I understand the theory deathsauce, and thanks for pointing it out, I didn't realize we were so close to it.

It is also true, however, that the theory requires the quick succession of all the scums votes, or else the ones that do vote would be seen as scummy. This theory does make me more suspicious of you though, because 2 votes are on you and the scum have yet to pile on and win. This means one of these situations is probably true: ryan is scum, or that the scum don't wish to risk revealing themselves in this way, or that you are scum.

I also would like to add I don't feel that deathsauce and ryan are scumbuddies.

[Miztef]

It's a possibility but blantly rushing into this is not the answer ryan. We should get more opinions from the town on this subject.

You, for example, have been accused of being scum many times. If you are scum, it easily explains why the rest of the scum haven't jumped on the bandwagon. It could also be that the scum can't co-odinate the 3 votes needed in a fashion quick enough to win without one of use unvoting.

Lastly, The possibility of a vig or SK or other NKer would mean the scum doesn't auto win in that situation.

Please refrain from drawing concludsions so quickly in the future.

[Miztef]

I'm afraid that deathsauce's latest posts have made me even more suspicious also. I am happy with my vote on him, his desperate (vote me and lose) line makes me especially happy with lynching him.

Confirm vote: Deathsauce

unvote

[Miztef]

Well, I'll reveal it now, because it didn't seem to work.

That post where I put a confirm vote on deathsauce, had a teeny weeny unvote beside it. If a player had hammered deathsauce with little reasoning or whatnot, it would have failed, and most likely I would turn my attention to that player.

So, just to clarify, that confirm vote post was only a trap, I don't really think lynching deathsauce at this time is the right option, although I still have much suspicion for him.

[Miztef]

Meh, to tell the truth, I wouldn't have completely minded if you were lynched anyway deathsauce.

I saw someone do it in another thread (it failed there, and the scum won) but I thought I'd try it out here anyway.

unvote

[Miztef]

interesting VanDamien.

Going after me on ethnically views? I'm not sure what to think of it right now, but I find it hypocritical that you would vote me and say "If you think Death is scum, let logic prevail" in the same post.

Also, I don't think any scums strategy would be to collaberate on bringing down someone with them... because they don't want themselves to be under suspicion at all!

I'm gonna

vote: VanDamien

.

[Miztef]

Well put Vollkan.

First thing: I still believe deathsauce could be scum. If someone pro-town was willing to hammer him, then I think in all likelyhood, Deathsauce is scum, or we have some bad pro-town players. Therefore, the trap was most likely to fall on a scum imo. However, since the trap failed, I am leaning towards him being town.

This, in turn, leads me to believe that you (Vollkan) and other people on the death bandwagon are the most likely scum. This is because if Death is town, the scum were most likely already on the bandwagon, or noticed the trap.

However, on the reverse, if deathsauce is scum, then players outside the bandwagon are most likely scum.

Important:

My ploy was mostly for game progression. We were stuck, there was no new information, and players were just slugging around uninspiring info about why this and that person is slightly scummy. I did believe my ploy would be effective (in that, it would work if it actually counted as an unvote) and felt strongly that deathsauce was scum at that time anyway. Also, by "fail" in another game, I meant the scum noticing it, not the mod disregarding it, in case that was misintepreted.

In the end, my ploy has done little to harm the town, and has created a wealth of interesting info to look into. Games are no fun without risk.

[Miztef]

@vollkan: I did not really believe it was a scum or town wagon, I was using the trap partly to figure that out.

If a town player was caught by my trap, then they would indeed be under heavy suspicion. However, the idea was, that if any scum were left to jump on the vote, they would and would win right then and there (since we are likely in LYLO). I don't believe a townie would hammer without good evidence of doing so, and therefore, if a townie did hammer, it is most likely that deathsauce is scum after all.

[Miztef]

I completely understand any votes against me at this point, I am actually happy to see them because if it did not happen, this situation would be brought up later in the game and I'll be a too rusty on the specifics to do any sort of good defence.

In the game I mentioned, the exact situtation was endgame 2-1. One town was a newbie, the other a quite good player. The quite good one decided to use the unvote trap with his "vote" on the newbie. The scum noticed the trap and did not hammer for the supposed win. The good townie gathered some more evidence and then really voted the newbie. The scum hammered for the win.

[Miztef]

I completely understand any votes against me at this point, I am actually happy to see them because if it did not happen, this situation would be brought up later in the game and I'll be a too rusty on the specifics to do any sort of good defence.

In the game I mentioned, the exact situtation was endgame 2-1. One town was a newbie, the other a quite good player. The quite good one decided to use the unvote trap with his "vote" on the newbie. The scum noticed the trap and did not hammer for the supposed win. The good townie gathered some more evidence and then really voted the newbie. The scum hammered for the win.

[Miztef]

@ryan: Save my butt from what? I wasn't under any heavy scrutiny, I did it because I wanted to progress the game without just stating that I wanted to lynch Deathsauce. It's fine if you don't consider it a pro-town action, or unethical, but trying to save my butt is not what it was.

[Miztef]

meh, I've got no defence left for it. I said exactly what I used it for, and why I did it.

I am sure one of the people voting for me is scum, maybe more, but I just can't tell which. My guess would be ryan, but that's just gut.

Deathsauce still looks scummy in my books, but because I used the trap with him as a "sacrifice" I can totally understand this as a pro-town action. I would be really angry with it myself.

[Miztef]

I was heavily suspicious of deathsauce at the time of the trap.

The trap could have gone both ways: Deathsauce is scum, and therefore it is unlikely scum would hammer, and if a pro-town player hammered deathsauce he would likely do so with good evidence and I would see if I agree with that person or not and hammer/not hammer myself, if that person did not show any good evidence, he/she is likely scum, and deathsauce would be town. This is because the scum would only do this with no evidence if it is a LYLO situation.

I realize that there are alot of risks and some flaws in my plan. However, it has led to alot of interesting and unique information being presented and so at least, even if you decide to lynch me, you'll have some valuable information from my crazed antics.

The plan was not well thought out enough, you have all pointed that out quite clearly, and I can honestly say there was little planning behind it on my part as well. I thought it would just be a cool way to spice things up a bit and get some more interesting intell. If it had actually worked, that would have been even better.

@Vollkan: I didn't want either lynched specifically at the time, it depended on the outcome of the trap.

[Miztef]

That is still a really tough question at this time.

There are some people who are high on my scumlist, but I don't have someone I truely feel is scum at this time.

Deathsauce, you (ryan), and VanDamien are all somewhat suspicious in my eyes, but I am also considering SC and trustgossip.

If I just got to pick who to lynch right now, I'd go with deathsauce. His whole reaction to my trap rubs me the wrong way, and I was suspicious of him even before my trap. All my arguements against him and my vote before the trap were quite true, although I was going a bit overboard in order to get the best reaction.

However, I would like to see SC and trustgossip have some input before anything too rash happens. That's why I'm not voting anyone at this time.

[Miztef]

Ok, I wouldn't call it a complete blunder.... the major reason for it was generating information. It has done that to great extent, even if it has caused unnessasary suspicion on myself.

I admitted to the trap because I realized it wouldn't work the way I intended. In doing so, I managed to get a game that has 3-5 inactives going intensely, and made sure this didn't come up later when everyone would probably lynch me quite quickly.

My real question to all the suspicion against me is: How is the trap truely helpful to scum?

If deathsauce is town, then yes, there was problem that the trap may have killed him. However, I did expect the trap to work at first, and didn't really take into consideration this possibility as much as I could have. That was a mistake.

[Miztef]

Firstly, @ryan: These pages aren't wasted, they are showing who is willing to vote for who and force the scum into unpredictable territory.

Well, a good townie wouldn't have hammered you without good reason! Unless a bad town player randomly just threw down the hammer, I doubt I could convince the town that the hammerer is very scummy (if I were scum).

The entire point of my trap was to leave some time for the scum to hammer and then be caught! Of course I left time for that to happen.

I wasn't afraid the trap would be found out, I realized it was more flawed then I had orginally thought, and considered that it maybe won't work (becuase of the mod not counting it) . So I revealed it because I didn't think it was worth hiding.

This pressure on me seems a bit too much at this point. I'm gonna go right ahead and

vote: DeathSauce

I am done defending the trap. ryan is right in that we need to get back to looking for scum, we are only restating things to each other now.

[Miztef]

@Deathsauce: I believe what Paradox is pointing out is that the 2 major suspects here are you and I. If the town becomes convinced that either one of us is town, it is likely they will vote the other as scum.

At this point, I really think that one of Deathsauce or ryan is scum, possibly both.

Deathsauce would be taking the full frontal approach as scum, where he sees an opprotunity to lynch a faulted townie (myself) and is now finding any way possible to lynch me. If I do get lynched, he can easily say that there was enough evidence against me, and his attack was valid.

ryan sees that I am in a weakened posisition and likes that Deathsauce is leading the assualt (doesn't particularly matter if DS is scum/town). By just slipping in his vote and considering other things in the game, he can get away with lynching me and saying he wasn't really sure anyway.

[Miztef]

Death is far from leading the charge against me?! Are you kidding?

VD barely had any input on the subject, expect that he felt it was unethical. Yes, he voted for me, but he was also open to other possibilities and still hasn't solidified his posistion on it.

You have said you agreed that it is a scummy thing to do, and that it deserves a vote, but you have hardly had any insight into the actual details of it.

Then we have Deathsauce, who has continually and consistantly called it scummy behavior and is adament on his posistion that I am scum, detailing everything he finds scummy about it and continually pressuring me about it.

Vollkan has also been questioning me about it, but in a more overall picture way, and isn't as rash as Deathsauce seems to be. I am somewhat confused as to why vollkan has not voted for me yet though, since his evidence against me seems to have mounted up quite heavily. My guess is he is waiting for input from the inactives/replacements.

[Miztef]

Well sure, you have evidence against me. However, I feel that your actions are not as strong as Deathsauce's, like this (not a direct quote) "It's incomprehensible that you guys aren't voting miztef" attack. Post 631.

One of the major reasons everyone is suspicious of me is because I can't explain my trap clearly enough. There was alot of varibles with the trap, some of which I accounted for (the risk that a pro-town player might fall into it), some I did not (the risk that it would be ignored). However, in absolutely no case I can see could I have lynched a pro-town player and gotten away scott free. If a pro-town player had fallen into it, and lawrencelot didn't count it, Deathsauce would be dead under fairly good reasoning and I would still be under heavy scrunity for the trap (if I admitted it). If the trap would be counted, and somehow a pro-town player fell for it, well, they'd have some explaining to do. The entire idea was that a pro-town would explain their reasoning, a scum would not(because I used the trap with the assumption we were under likely LYLO).

bah, I don't even know why I'm trying to defend it anymore. I said I wouldn't anyway. It's just so frustating that some of you see it in such a negitive aspect, yet I don't understand why. It's just such a mess of varibles and "what if's".

[Miztef]

Actually, Deathsauce brings up an interesting point in his latest post.

The players voting with him against me are VD and ryan, both on his scum list (or at least were). I hadn't noticed it until now, but it is possible their actions are an attempt to make sure that if either of us is lynched (which seems likely at this time) they are on the survivor's townie list. This is especially true with ryan, who continually states how he believed I was pro-town until just recently, and now believes I need to be lynched. This gives him the wiggle room needed to look innocent no matter which of us is lynched today.

Major FOS: ryan

[Miztef]

@deathsauce: If a soccer player uses a great kick at goal, but the goalie just happens to be good enough to stop it, does that make it a bad kick?

That line is not a slip-up at all. This game has a much different situation. In that game, the tatic was used in an endgame definate LYLO situation. In this game I used it in a possible LYLO and with many players still left. In that game however, the player did use the tatic on the player he thought was much more scummy, to confirm that the other player wasen't scum (because the scum would have jumped at the chance and won the game). Unfortunatly the scum caught it and managed to do some final convincing for the win.

[Miztef]

meh, I don't mind giving the game link:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

It was the first game I was ever in actually, and the only game that I was in that has finished.

[Miztef]

@Tornado:

about snichkin: I'll admit, I contradict myself at times, but it's because my opinion fluctuates... a lot. At that time, many people were growing suspicious of snichkin, and I came to understand where they were coming from. Also, the game (I believe) was stalling at that time, so any sort of pressure was a welcome help. That post 66 rule breaking was something I didn't look very closely at beforehand. I don't think I directly disagreed with it beforehand (it was a long time ago though, I can't really recall).

With ABR, alot happened and changed with him. He was quite the character, and it was very hard to read him correctly. There was a long period of time between those 2 posts and my opinion changed. I also believe snichkin wasn't posting much, so it was kinda pointless to keep at him when there was no info to be gained.

[Miztef]

I feel bad for being the center of attention all the time, cause, honestly, I know my strategies/choices are most likely worse then the average player.

I don't really have a response to the specifics of the evidence (not sure if thats the right term here) presented against me. I forgot half of it and don't know all the details for the other half.

I'll just say this: I am a flexible and adaptive player. I rarely care about what I said 3 posts ago, if my opinion changed (which it very often does) I say so. Anyone who's played in other games with me would know that I am a very radical player and use crazy plans to get reactions. I feel that unpredictability is a key point in winning mafia, because good players know exactly how to react to all the regular stuff. Throw in some curve balls, and everyone's in new territory. That's what ABR tried to do, and unfortunately he went too overboard. However, I think his tactic made for an interesting D1, and, if executed better, could have created a very unsettled scum group.

So, yes, my plans are crazy, and sometimes I don't listen to others opinions on it (that #'s thing confused me though, and we did argue about it I believe). Also, yes, a lot of my actions seem contradictory to my earlier opinions, but that's due to my extra adaptive behavior.

[Miztef]

I'm gonna go right ahead and FoS: ryan.

I was really suspicious of his vote on me, and he's the big lead for me right now. We are in a really desperate situation now though, so I won't vote until nessessary.

[Miztef]

sure, I thought wouldn't have enough time, but it turns out I do.

Deathsauce and myself were going at it most of yesterday. Most of the time, you seemed to be on deathsauce's side. Since me and him are both town, either kill was fine for u, just had to pick a side. Your vote just seemed slipped in to me, so if I had died, you wouldn't have as much suspicion as Deathsauce. Vandamien was voting for u when he died, so it's possible you, or your scumbuddies, felt he could convince the town today to lynch you, so you had to be rid of him.

I am also slightly supicious of Vollkan and Paradox for lynching deathsauce. This would of course apply to me as well, but thats fine, its a valid suspicion.

[Miztef]

Sir torando, its a valid point. It's an advantage to the scum to be rid of someone who is helping the town. Vandamien, from my perspective, is the only person who could have possibly been voting for scum, and the scum killed him. Therefore, scum would be getting an advantage by killing him over other players.

To my knowledge, no pro-town power roles were remotely close to being found, so that seems like the best course of action for the scum.

Also, that is only a small reason why I am FoSing ryan, earlier action in the game has kept me suspicious of him, and voting me just for that plan seems ridiculously scummy. At least deathsauce accused me due to my explaination of the trap/plan not the plan itself.

[Miztef]

Voting is severely risky to me right now. We have (most likely) 3 scum, that means that 1 vote on a town by a town could mean all the scum jump on and win the game (this is likely LY/LO).

That jump vote gives me some incentive to believe you are scum paradox, it is way too premature. I don't have nearly enough of a read on SirTornado, Sweenytoad, and trustgossip to dare send a vote out in this situation, I don't see how anyone is willing this early in the day. (sorry for any name typos in advance)