<Mini 435> Julius Caesar Mafia, Player Abandoned

[Lawrencelot]

Man, Miztef has 3 votes on him already, and it's 7 to lynch. I'd say: don't vote Miztef! He was stupid enough to mention character names, that's true (I, for example, didn't get a character name). If he has a character name, that probably means he's no townie... but: he could have a power role. Man, Miztef, you got yourself into trouble, and just after one post (the first).

If think Miztef is either scum or has a power role. If he's scum, we have to look for his scumpartner, or wait until Miztef makes another mistake and just vote Miztef. If he has a power role, we have to make sure scum won't kill him N1.

Not voting yet.

[Lawrencelot]

Sarcastro, I think you're right: maybe I shouldn't have mentioned Miztef's mistake, as it let's the mafia know that he has a power role, but I thought I had to protect Miztef and I think the mafia would have found out anyway.

For me, 2 things are not suspicious but weird: Guardian's posts all have the same features (one vote, one sentence, red text), I agree that it's probably a post restriction, but I don't know if that's scummy or not. And Sarcastro still didn't unvote if I am right. It was a random vote, I understand that, but now that you think Miztef is town shouldn't you unvote?

Although these things are strange, I don't feel much suspicion for Miztef, Guardian and Sarcastro. Well actually I'm hesitating about Guardian: he was keeping his vote on Miztef too, but altough I didn't agree with him I did understand his logic.

[Lawrencelot]

You are both right. I can see why you would vote Guardian, obviously, but I can also see a reason why not to vote him. Although his posts look really strange, that has nothing to do with his alignment I think (or at least we can't say that red letters are scummy). He thought mentioning power roles is scummy, and although I don't agree with it I can understand his logic. But I do want him to explain himself, and his behaviour, and thus I will threaten him with voting, but I'll save my vote for later.

FOS: Guardian

[Lawrencelot]

Good logic, Miztef, at first I thought you were a bit dumb because of your mistake, but hey.. everybody makes mistakes, your posts do make a lot of sense now. I didn't even know there were rolenames in this game, until after your first post.

By reading Guardian's last post, we can conclude that he is also not a townie. However, I have a theory: why would the mod give guardian a post restriction if he's scum, because this post restriction is attracting votes (there are people who vote guardian ONLY because of the weird posts, not everybody of course). I think this posting restriction and the votehopping is a disadvantage for him, as it attracts votes and makes him look scummy to some people. So: could he have this disadvantage because he also has a really helpful power role? He could be a protecting investigating roleblocking vig who has to look scummy as a disadvantage. (just a theory, and an exaggerating one, but I would like to hear others opinions on this)

And Miztef, don't give your rolename, as it would ony help scum indeed.

[Lawrencelot]

Sorry for double post, but Guardian did NOT have 5 red letters in his last post. However, the mod did. What could that mean? And eteocles, how is your research going on? I might look around on wikipedia or so too when I have time. But let's not reveal anything that might help scum.

[Lawrencelot]

Vote: Phoebus

I'm not 100% sure about Guardian, but I find my own theory more likely to believe for now. Phoebus seems to be the only one who is sure Guardian is scum, and the reason he gives is the annoying posts. Why didn't you look at other posts of Guardian? I looked at one other post of him in a game and it's without 5 red words, one sentence and a vote.

Guardian: I'm ok with you posting less, I won't vote you for lurking. Just post when you find someone suspicious, or when people want you to post. Or when you have something to add to the discussion. Well nevermind this, just post unless it would confuse town.

Eteocles does have a good point though, I didn't think of the possibility of a Jester. However, Jesters want themselves lynched, and Guardian seems to try to help the town, although he failes sometimes.

[Lawrencelot]

Yeah Nightfall and Emptyger have to post. Something else: I don't know who said it (Phoebus I thought), but someone asked Guardian if his votes don't count at all. Is this true Guardian? From what I understood, Guardian's vote do count but they don't reflect who Guardian thinks is scum, only his FOSes say who guardian thinks is scum.

Oh and confirm vote: Phoebus. His latest posts are clear as he said himself, but they're scummy too. Your reasons to vote guardian won't do it for me. This has nothing to do with the above btw.

It seems that sarcastro is attacking ryan a bit. Here's what I think of it: sarcastro accused ryan of planning not to contribute to the game until the lurkers post. Ryan never said from what I can understand, he will just hang with his random vote until then. That's not bad, but I agree with sarcastro that ryan should contribute, although ryan never said he wouldn't do that.

[Lawrencelot]

Yeah that's what I thought about guardian's votes too. About ryan and sarcastro: I didn't think it was scummy, I just thought I should give my opinion, to contribute to the discussion.

Mod: please prod nightfall and EmpTyger.

What about VanDamien, he also didn't post for some time now.

[Lawrencelot]

I would also like to add that we do have vanilla townies in this game, since we have a sample of the townie PM written by the mod. I have this feeling it wasn't there before... anyone else remember whether it was or not? If it wasn't, I'd say Lawrencealot is probably legit.

????
Where did you see this pm-example? I can't find it.

Ah, I found it, under the last rule. I don't know if it was already there or not, it might be. I thought after the 50% powerrole thing, the post was over, but I'm not sure. But if I made it up, how would I know that the XXXX wasn't the role name? Let's keep this aside though, not for my protection but I think finding information about townies would help neither mafia nor town.

Guardian, why are you not keeping your vote on phoebus, or are you not allowed to unvote and vote for the same player, which you did in the beginning of the game.

[Lawrencelot]

About Miztef's list: it's not inaccurate if it shows who currently has the most chance of lynching, but I agree with the others that it isn't helpful, you'd better make a lynch of who you think should be lynched, with arguments.

It's a blatant restriction/requirement.
Yes. He could get a powerful bonus out of it.

There are 3 situations as I see it.
One was the one above.

Another is: Fake a ludicrous restriction and establish trust in the town's eyes because of the reason that: scum could just not be hampered with such a restriction.
The statement is true to a certain extent where it can be used by scum to be established as an alibi and be used in exactly this same manner/effect.

Third scenario: Horrible restriction. Mediocre power/bonus.
Given the fact that all power roles have 50% chance of occurring at this time, that makes him annoying, as well as potentiall useless.

The first situation is one I find likely, and you don't. I can understand that you don't find it likely, but from previous posts I understood that you don't even find it possible. That's one small reason to vote you. The second situation is one that I don't find likely, and you do. I still find it possible, but the chance that he's faking it is very small in my eyes, I totally don't see a reason why Guardian would fake his restriction. The third situation I also find possible, maybe as much as you. But if this situation was correct, I wouldn't think it was a reason to vote Guardian, as a power role with 50% chance of working with an annyoing restriction is still better than a townie. If you'd vote Guardian for this, you could even vote all townies, it doesn't make sense.

this day 1

we have nothing better to go on

the restriction is annoying

it could potentially be fake

it would be very annoying if the restriction carried on indefinitely.

We do have better things to go on. There is no deadline, and the random voting phase was over remarkably quickly. The restriction could be annyoing to you, but even so it's no reason to vote for someone. The fact that it could be fake, is something I find possible, but not very likely. If it was carried on indefinitly it would be annyoing, but again, that wouldn't be a reason to vote him.

To me, your only good argument to vote Guardian is that he could be faking his restriction. So we would have to discuss about that. I don't think it's likely, because he did so from the beginning of the game, and I don't believe Guardian likes this restriction, and the mod used 5 red words when Guardian forgot that.

[Lawrencelot]

Just vote Phoebus already. The only reason not to vote Phoebus (what I can think of) is because we're waiting for Emptyger and Nightfall to post content.

About Ryan: maybe he said he didn't want to contribut (although I don't even think he said that), he is contributing so just leave that case alone.

*All* actions of a pro town player are useful.

This seems to have been quoted a lot. I think Phoebus ment that the night actions are useful, and that the others think the day actions don't always have to be useful. I don't think this quote is rather scummy though(I already explained what is scummy about Phoebus), but it is a slight contradiction with what Phoebus said earlier (or later?) about the situations, where pro-town players with a post restriction are useless.

[Lawrencelot]

Well, I still don't completely understand the test for Guardian or whatever it is, we could see in the earlier posts that the red letters and the vote don't need to be on a particular place. He probably voted Ryan in both lists because he wanted the list to be the same (but in a different order).

I mostly agree with nightfall's list by the way.

[Lawrencelot]

So, EmpTyger, maybe you should also make a list of who you find scummy and who not (in English please, or if you really have to, both).

Btw, what is trolling? I can't find it in the wiki, and my dictionary says it has something to do with fishing :S. English is not my mother-tongue, but I know what a trolley is...

[Lawrencelot]

Alright, ryan is acting more and more defensive now, but that's logical with more and more votes on him. I still won't vote ryan, as the only posts that could be seen scummy to me are his latest votes, but he has been under pressure lately. The main reason why I would vote ryan if I would vote him, is because he's acting very defensive and accusing players who voted him (like saying sarcastro and miztef are scum partners).

I am keeping my vote on phoebus, but if we would come close to a lynch on any of these people I think I might change my vote: (Phoebus), ryan, VanDamien, EmpTyger if he wouldn't post.

People who I won't vote for when their close to a lynch (unless they do something obviously scummy): Miztef, Sarcastro, Guardian. About the others I don't know yet.

[Lawrencelot]

Well Phoebus, what do you say about this ^. I was convinced for a long time that the post restriction was real, now you should be convinced too. Although it's still possible that Simenon uses the same fake restriction as Guardian, I find that chance about 0.01%.

Welcome Simenon

So, the lynch this day would probably be either ryan or Phoebus. These are the people who are willing to vote ryan, correct me if I'm wrong: VanDamien, Sarcastro, Miztef, Simenon?, Lawrencelot if ryan's at lynch -1 or a deadline occurs, phoebus to save his own ass (he never said anything about ryan but I expect phoebus would vote ryan if ryan is almost lynched).

People who are willing to vote Phoebus, correct me if I'm wrong: Lawrencelot, Emptyger, Patrick, Miztef?, Sarcastro?, Simenon?, maybe ryan (same counts for him as for phoebus).

We have no deadline, so we don't need to rush the lynch. I would have the least problem if ryan or phoebus are lynched, but I think the votes on ryan appear a bit too much as a bandwagon. As I said before, I'm not voting ryan unless he would be very close to a lynch. I prefer a Phoebus lynch. But although I am pro-town, I cannot be sure of anyone's alignment, so don't vote for Phoebus too unless you have good reasons, which I do have.

[Lawrencelot]

Lawrencelot: In post 263 you say you are not happy with a vote for me UNLESS I was close to being lynched? Can you explain that reasoning?

I am not sure that you are scum, but I am also not sure that you are town. If you would be at lynch -1, that would mean that the town thinks you should be lynched (although there might also be mafia voting you), and the only reason why I would NOT vote you in that situation is if I would be sure that you are town, which I'm not.

[Lawrencelot]

What's that supposed to mean? The only thing that may sound noobish was what I said to Phoebus about the post restriction not being fake because simenon posted the same way (I actually didn't mean this, it was obvious simenon could still fake it the same way as guardian). I pointed out several things, and said that it wasn't wise to vote Miztef or Guardian, and most people agreed with me in the end. I was having a grasp on this game, and I still have. The only thing I don't understand is what Emptyger accuses me for. Does he think it was wrong of me to claim townie?

[Lawrencelot]

I do agree with ryan in one point, Simenon is accusing many people in that post. But this only surprised me because Guardian played a bit different. Now, this does make clear what Simenon thinks and it certainly looks like he's already involved in the game now, so it's not a bad thing. What I want to know: why do people think I'm a new player? My join date is earlier than Simenon's, although maybe I played less games I still don't know what it is that makes me look newbish. And Simenon: why do you think Phoebus is town?

In my defense against Simenon's accusation: I made clear that Miztef might have a power role, because too many people were voting him already for his mistake. I didn't want a power role to get lynched, so I protected Miztef. Do you believe he has no power role? It's possible he is scum, but I didn't want to take the risk. And why is my post 49 wishy-washy?

[Lawrencelot]

Woa, the restriction was fake? Sorry for the late reaction, I had exams today. This is big, I really believed it was real. This throws my thoughts on some players completely upside down.

Unvote: phoebus

. I found phoebus scummy all the time, for reasons I stated often enough, but he did not believe the restriction was real, and now we see the result.

Simenon, I now see why you thought phoebus was pro-town, I hope you understand why I thought he was not (now I also think he's prow-town).

Lawrencelot:
Let me preface this by admitting I am *not* sure at all about the details of this tell; I’ve only witnessed it once, in N326. I believe the tell is trying to rush the portrayal of consensus. You seem very eager to show that either Phoebus or ryan should be lynched. Which feels especially odd considering you don’t appear to have strong feelings regarding ryan.

I never said ryan should be lynched, if I said it you can quote me. I said phoebus should be lynched, and that I would vote ryan if he would be at lynch-1 or so. Why? Because if ryan would be at lynch -1, that would mean the town wants him dead, even if the mafia voted him, and I would listen to the town, because my thoughts on ryan were neutral.

Now that Simenon's restriction turned out to be real, I don't find him very pro-town anymore. But a fake restriction also is not that scummy, because of the explanation he gave. I will not vote you, but

IGMEOY: Simenon

.

My thoughts about Ryan:
In a mafia game I was giving a reaction to every small accusation someone gave to me. Ryan said he doesn't want to keep defending he's pro-town. In the game where I was trying at my best to defend myself, I was mafia. This would make Ryan look a bit pro-town to me, if this logic wasn't so faulty, and Ryan's play does have a lot of scummy features. But my thoughts about Ryan are still neutral, therefore I won't vote him yet. I would IGMEOY on Ryan if he didn't have that many eyes looking at him already.

Now, Miztef is having some scummy features too. I always protected Miztef, because of his first post, but there is still the possibility he is scum with a rolename of course.

IGMEOY: Miztef

. I just didn't want him to be lynched that soon, because of the risk. Now it's different. Not worth of voting yet, though.

[Lawrencelot]

Sorry for double post, but I think I'll answer this.

Lawrencelot

: You mentioned earlier in the game you found Phoebus, Ryan, and VanDamien the most scummy. What did you find scummy about each, and what are your current thoughts on them (or anyone else)?

Well my thoughts about Phoebus changed as stated above. But I never said I found these three the most scummy. I found Ryan and VanDamien neutral (not to confuse with "no opinion", that's what I thought about some others). If the town would want to lynch either of them I would cooperate, because my thoughts on them were not pro-town. But next time you ask me a question like this please quote it, because I don't exactly remember what I said, but I hope this made it clear. Always happy to answer questions though.

[Lawrencelot]

EmpTyger, it's true that I don't vote him while I leave my way open to vote him later. However, in this situation it is not scummy. I don't vote him because I don't think he is that scummy, and I would vote him later if the town would want him dead because I don't think he's that protown. And I don't advocate bandwagoning him, if I would I would have already voted him. Btw, I wasn't entirely sure he was bandwagoned, even at that time it just looked a bit like a bandwagon but I'm not sure if it was.
A votecount would help me in deciding wether I should vote ryan or not.

Mod, can we have a votecount please?

[Lawrencelot]

I agree with the latest post that Simenon's explanation for the restriction is believable (and to VanDamien, not because of that sentence, I didn't even notice it until now, but it is interesting). But this doesn't mean that we should just leave it with that, there is a not so low chance that Simenon is still scum, and that Guardian made up the restriction for fun (or even because of scum play) while he was mafia anyway. But to me, Simenon is not the most scummy, in fact his scumminess is even below average to me. Ryan is to me the most scummy now, aside from the ones who don't post anymore, but still not that scummy to have my vote. I don't know who to vote yet, while it's already page 14, sheesh.

Mod, I unvoted Phoebus in the second post of this page.

[Lawrencelot]

Nice post. I agree with most things said, except for the random lynches day 1. We do have a lot of information even without kills, especially this day. Miztef's semi-claim, Guardian's fake restriction, other's semi-claim. While this is true, I still am not entirely sure who to vote.

Maybe we can speculate about the scum partners. To the ones who vote ryan: who do you think is his scum partner if he's scum? I think Miztef and Sarcastro both as scum could be true, but it seems a bit too obvious because of Miztef's play. This could be WIFOM or inexperience though. Phoebus, who could be Simenon's scumpartner if he's scum?

Still not voting... and please tell me what it is that makes me look inexperienced?

[Lawrencelot]

Note: my latest post was a reaction to Phoebus's latest post.

I will believe Simenon too for now. Maybe we should go after the lurkers now?

Vote: Eteocles

[Lawrencelot]

FoS: Anybody who would rather vote lurkers than scummy players

I firmly believe that it is the mod's responsibility to deal with long-term lurkers, not the players'. If Eteocles were suspicious because he mysteriously lurked at significant times, I would consider voting for him. As of right now, he's simply not posting at all, which says very little about his alignment. I agree that his behaviour before was marginally scummy, and he's still near the top of my list, but trying to lynch lurkers on day one is, quite frankly, a stupid strategy.

I think you're right, but, as I said earlier, I didn't find anyone the most scummy, even with all this information, therefore I started voting lurkers, but I admit it isn't that helpful. And Eteocles is posting now, so

Unvote: Eteoces

.

My opinion about ryan is about the same as Simenon's. Maybe it is a scum-driven bandwagon, but I'm not sure about that. If it was, Sarcastro would be suspicious, but I do like Sarcastro's posts, even though they are mainly against ryan Sarcastro's posts make a lot of sense. Ryan is a bit scummy, but he's still not on the top of my list. If there was a deadline, that could change, but for now I still don't know who to vote for.

In addition, the fact that you're once again trying to use Miztef's early mistake to label him scum is rather suspicious. It is pretty clear to me (and the rest of the town, as far as I can tell) that he is a power role who made a mistake. There is no logical reason for scum to want to reveal their own rolenames in a game like this, unless my understanding of the theme of this game is totally out of whack.

Here is something that I do not like about Sarcastro. He assumes that most people think Miztef has a powerrole. At first I did think so, but I mainly stated the theory because I didn't want to take the risk to lynch him. But there have been two options about Miztef all the time: either he's scum, or he has a powerrole. At first I had pro-town vibes about Miztef, but now he seems more neutral to me. I don't think accusing Miztef is suspicious, but accusing him for his mistake is wrong indeed. But don't give Miztef a free pass.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Sarcastro is suspicious, but I could think of various arguments why he would be scum, it's just that his play is not scummy. If I would have to vote, I would vote ryan now, but I'm still not that convinced like Sarcastro is.

[Lawrencelot]

Well I only post when I got something to add or when someone asks me. No one asks me anything, which I don't mind, but I want to try to find scum too. I'll make a short summary on my opinions of others. I might best do that in numbers: 0 is scum, 5 is neutral, 10 is town.

Nightfall: doesn't matter much, since he will be replaced. Mostly neutral about him, so 5.
Eteocles: 5. I don't have a strong read of him. He has been a bit inactive, but he's not the only one.
Illumina: 7. I noticed she asked a lot of questions to people, which is good as it can help town, but I don't really know what she thinks of most people herself. Can you make some kind of summary too?
Simenon: 3. The fake PR made sure everybody has an opinion about him, so this 5 means something else than other fives in this post. I'm not sure if he lied about Guardian's weird plan, but I don't think he's a townie. I wouldn't vote him though, because his behaviour isn't scummy at all.
Sarcastro: 6. Most of his posts make sense to me, the only thing I don't like is that he has been accusing ryan for a whole long time.
EmpTyger: 5. He could post a bit more, but his posts haven't been very scummy. I don't think he helped the town a lot though.
ryan: 3. I'm not as sure about him as some people are. He could very well be scum, but I wonder how he would have behaved if he was never under pressure.
Phoebus: 7. He was right about the fake PR. Only if there are multiple mafia families, I could see him as scum. He also didn't post for some time now though, and I don't always agree with him.
Patrick: 5. I will be waiting for him to post content, so I can get an opinion of him.
Miztef: 3. I don't like his behaviour at all: he always follows the flow, doesn't take any risks. The good thing about him is that he says what he thinks. But since he isn't a townie, theres a good chance he's scum. My opinion on him has changed much since the beginning.
VanDamien: 6. His posts make sense, he makes little mistakes, I don't often disagree with him. Not a strong pro-town feeling about him, but also not scummy.

If I would have to vote, I think it would be Simenon. Maybe Ryan. But I'm still not sure enough.

[Lawrencelot]

Simenon: 3. The fake PR made sure everybody has an opinion about him, so this 5 means something else than other fives in this post. I'm not sure if he lied about Guardian's weird plan,

but I don't think he's a townie

.

I wouldn't vote him though

, because his behaviour isn't scummy at all.
.

Did I read this correctly? You don't think he's town BUT you wouldn't vote him? If you don't think he's town wouldn't you vote him than as scum?

FoS at Lawrencelot

Pro-town is not the same as townie. And "I don't think" is something else than "I'm sure". And there are others to vote for. If it doesn't help town, I don't vote for someone.

[Lawrencelot]

What should we think of this? Scum who gives up, or townie who doesn't feel like playing anymore? Although I really really don't like ryan's behaviour at all, and he didn't help town at all, I still think it's possible he's on our side. But if we would lynch him, I'd have no problem with it. This is just unsporty behaviour. Maybe it would have been easier if everybody just voted him (including me). Now, let's see what the replacement will be like.

[Lawrencelot]

Note: these quotes are from Miztef

Simenon's actions seem perfectly indictive of his situation and there is no solid evidence of scuminess to him imo.

Sacastro's logic has been quite in line with mine, and therefore, I can't really find him scummy without being hypocritical at this time.

I don't find simenon's play particularly scummy or horrible, but that post restriction was a horrible addition to the gameplay, and players shouldn't be allowed to get away with things like that scott free.

Well, what is it? Please answer these 2 questions for me. Do you think Simenon is scum or town considering his behaviour? Do you think Simenon is scum or town considering the things he and Guardian did?

[Lawrencelot]

I noticed something that might be useful to the town. This is a quote from ryan, he said it in a different game a few days after he got replaced here:

bird1111, what do you think about bandwagons?

I think they are a useful tool for getting reactions, though you do have to watch out for scum-driven ones

What about the ones that make newbie townies get defensive and look scummy? Couldn't bandwagons be bad that way?

Although he knows I'm in that game too, I don't think that's the reason he said it. I think this is a strong argument for ryan's innocense, and makes me suspicious of the people who made a case against him in this game.

(Unvote) Vote: Sarcastro

[Lawrencelot]

I don't think you should be referring to ongoing games and using it as evidence. We don't know his alignment and motivations in that game. I agree that the case against him isn't strong though. But I'd avoid pointing to ongoing games.

It's not evidence, it's a strong argument. Ryan's alignment in that game has nothing to do with it, because it is not an argument for him in that game, and in this game he already got replaced. I see no good reason why not to consider this point in creating an opinion on ryan's replacer, but I agree we shouldn't focus on other games in this game's discussion.

[Lawrencelot]

Although he knows I'm in that game too, I don't think that's the reason he said it. I think this is a strong argument for ryan's innocense, and makes me suspicious of the people who made a case against him in this game.

(Unvote) Vote: Sarcastro

Please explain your logic. Ryan said that he doesn't like bandwagons against townies, so I'm scum?

First of all, I don't think you should be using evidence from outside this game, besides already-completed games. Second, that quote does not say anything about Ryan's alignment. I know it's tempting to think that he's hinting at his role in this game (which is very much against the rules, by the way), but there's simply no reason to believe that his comments mean he wasn't scum in this game.

Finally, even if he

was

town, which is obviously a possibility, how does that make

me

scum?

If I hear anything more about a "noob town" vs. "noob scum" debate, I will strangle somebody. Experience and role are entirely unrelated, okay? Being a noob does not make you more likely to be town. Furthermore, Ryan claimed not to be a noob.

Furthermore

, he acted like noob scum, in any case.

There's a deadline soon, which means it's time for me to wait until everyone realises at the last moment that I was right all along. Braze is today's lynch. Eteocles is acceptable, too.

It's very likely that he's hinting at this game in that quote, because he was very pissed in this game and it's probably bugging him (as I said, this is unsporty though). And if it is true that he means this game, then he probably speaks the truth because it doesn't help him to let people know he's town in this game, that's not in his interest. The reason I voted you: you have been attacking ryan the whole game, and although your reasons and arguments were fine and logical, if ryan is town I suspect the one who attacked him. I'm not completely sure that he's town and that you would be scum if he's town, but I was sure enough to put one vote on you. But I don't think everybody will agree with me, and the town has to agree with each other now there is a deadline, so

Unvote: Sarcastro

. Oh, and I didn't mention noob scum vs noob town that often, but that was probably meant for others.

I am fine with a lynch on anybody I find neutral to scum, now that there is a deadline. I won't mention everybody, but these are people I will not vote for: Lawrencelot, Illumina, ryan, phoebus. And there are people who I would vote for if someone convinced me first, and there are people who I would just vote if everybody does it.

[Lawrencelot]

We have 3 more days. I don't want to end this day with no lynch. Here are the possibilities (the most likely ones, because everyone could be lynched):
-We all vote no lynch or we don't make it to the deadline. No good choice.
-We lynch Simenon. There are some people who want this, but I think IF we lynch Simenon, let's not do it today. I don't think I would vote Simenon this day if everybody did it, but it's possible.
-We lynch BrazeGoesMoo. A lot of people have voted for ryan in this game. If ryan was still here, I would vote him if he was close to a lynch, but BrazeGoesMoo has not shown himself unhelpful (although he didn't replace in that long ago). I wouldn't vote him today.
-We lynch Eteocles. Some people have voted for him. I don't know if he's scum or town. I would only vote him if it's obvious the whole town wanted it. Same counts for VanDamien.
-We lynch Miztef. We know Miztef is no townie. The only risk is that we lynch a powerrole, which could be a great loss.
-We lynch someone else.

I think it is best that we lynch somebody who we think is either (unhelpful) townie or scum. If we are sure somebody is scum then we just vote him of course. Since I don't have a clue who that would be, I am open for suggestions.

[Lawrencelot]

Vote: Simenon

. I am pretty sure he is not a townie, he could have a powerrole though, but although this is in contradiction with what I said earlier, I vote him. As EmpTyger says, it will be enlightening. And I believe it's a bit less likely that he has a powerrole, because he said he's a townie, which I don't believe. I know this doesn't make that much sense, but the deadline is tomorrow right? I think this is the best choice.

Mod, can you prod Haut Boy after the deadline?

(don't think he can do something helpful before it)

[Lawrencelot]

Lawrencelot:

<snip>

Mod, can you prod Haut Boy after the deadline?

(don't think he can do something helpful before it)

Why? And how did you reach this conclusion? Why would you think HB would be more helpful *after* deadline than before? I mean, you *know* HB can vote (which he isn’t) and contribute (which he hasn’t, really). But you shouldn’t have any idea whether he can do anything overnight.

Well actually I meant: after the deadline, but not after the night. The reason: if he is prodded now, and he does look at this thread, he might vote for someone without good reasoning. I don't want him to vote without reading the thread, and reading the thread would take more time than the deadline I think. This is a delicate situation, the town needs to choose the best lynch, and I don't think Hautboy can do that if he just replaces in. But if you want him prodded, why don't you just ask? It's just that I don't think it would help, and that it might even be bad for town.

[Lawrencelot]

We lost a cop, that sucks . Sorry but I have no time for a post with content, will post more tomorrow.

[Lawrencelot]

Alright, I made it earlier than I thought. First of all, Phoebus why did you vote me? For hammering? If I remember correctly you were the one going after Guardian all the time, not me. But I won't vote you, that would be a bit too omgussy.

A massclaim? Not sure if that would be helpful to the town. At least not yet. We only had 1 night, cops dont have much information, we cant check most vig's/scum's/sk's nightkills, etc. If the town decides it, I would be willing to cooperate though. Not that I could be that helpful, as I already claimed townie. My main suspects: .... I dont know yet.

Mod, can you put a votecount in the lynch post please?

After that, I think I'll reread a bit of who went after Simenon most of the time. I thought it was VD or Eteocles (only one of these, don't remember who, maybe someone else) who was suspicious of Sarcastro and Simenon most of D1.

[Lawrencelot]

Stating the obvious = not helpful.

It's a minor scumtell.
Even if Lawrence was being sincere, it's still not useful play to lament a dead cop/doc and make sad faces.
You want to talk? Contribute.
Don't fluff around.

If it's minor, why do you cast a vote? Not that it matters that much, I hope no one will follow you. Lamenting a dead cop may not be useful, but what do I have to say then? "Yay, we lost a cop!" I would have contributed if I could, but I had no time. Just use my post after that post if you want to vote me.

[Lawrencelot]

I'm glad others back me up, although I do understand Phoebus's reasoning. I wouldn't vote me if I were someone else, but I understand why he is suspicious of me saying the obvious. However, if I were scum I wouldn't have said that, and if I had time I would have said something else perhaps. I won't vote Phoebus (yet).

[Lawrencelot]

At least, this scumtell was not worth voting for me. It is worth asking questions to me, so go ahead.

The one that kept saying either Simenon or Sarcastro is scum, was Eteocles (saw this after rereading). This is not enough to vote Eteocles, but I think it's worth a FOS.

FOS: Eteocles

. Phoebus was also someone who was suspicious of Simenon for a long time, so

FOS: Phoebus

. Of course, I was the one who dropped the hammer, and I apologise for that. I did not want to take the risk of a nolynch. And I thought Simenon was the best option for a lynch. It was not his own fault though, actually we should blame Guardian that Simenon is lynched.

[Lawrencelot]

That's not what I'm doing, it's just that you 2 are suspicious because of this, and I am suspicious too because of that, but less than you 2 because I wasn't going after him the whole time. Still, it's only a small argument, that's why I don't vote one of you. I'm also trying to generate discussion, because I have a feeling not everybody is here yet.

[Lawrencelot]

Phoebus means that his own vote is OMGUS, which is true.

FOS: Phoebus

for that. I admitted that some arguments against me are correct, but not enough to cast a vote on me.

@Sarcastro: we all know you wanted to lynch ryan, but is your vote on Braze solely based on that?

[Lawrencelot]

No, it was just a question. I think you should, but I don't think I'll join you if you don't have better arguments, that's why I asked.

[Lawrencelot]

So... anybody still here?

Vote: Brazegoesmoo

, so that something happens. Let's discuss.

[Lawrencelot]

I am not sure if a massclaim will be that helpful to the town. But I'm not for or against it, as I'm just a townie. It could help scum obviously, but on the other hand it could help town because scum have only one nightkill (at least they had last night), and we probably have more than 1 power role. But I don't think we should massclaim.

[Lawrencelot]

Let's make that more clear: just don't massclaim. It won't help town.

[Lawrencelot]

I had to think if a massclaim would help town, and I was hesitating. My final conclusion is: it won't help town. What's yours?

[Lawrencelot]

Friends, Romans and countrymen, can you not notice the blatant tag teaming going on with Lawrence (who keeps quiet) and Miztef who seems to deflect away from him and towards me?
Surely, cultured people like us enjoy our wrestling and of course, the idea of tag teaming came from wrestling and duelling and the concept of seconds, rather than from the nefarious sports entertainment industry, didn't it?
DIDN'T IT?

I already said that often D1: Miztef keeps siding with the majority (although now he sided with me only, because he believes me). In some cases D1 I didn't like how Miztef followed other's footsteps, but now I don't think he just follows me, because this time he adds the logical argument that he believes I'm a townie. So my suspicion on Miztef is mainly gone, but I would like to add this to Miztef: Thanks for backing me up, but that I'm on the pro-town side doesn't necessarily mean I'm right. Your suspicion of Phoebus is correct, however.

[Lawrencelot]

Important note: I didn't vote Phoebus. Phoebus, you shouldn't focus defending yourself from me, as I only FOSed you (and that particular fos was for your omgusvote). I am suspicious of Phoebus, but my case against him is weaker than Patrick's case against him, that's why I didn't vote him yet. Phoebus, I suggest you defend yourself against Patrick (and Miztef, if he didn't change his mind) rather than me, because I never voted you D2 iirc.

Small

fos: Sarcastro

. I think the Phoebus bandwagon was legitimate, although I never joined it. Especially Patrick's arguments are good enough for a vote, and Miztef's arguments could also be enough for a vote, but more for a Fos I think. My arguments were not enough for a vote, but I also didn't vote him. So I don't see why you defend Phoebus.

Big

FOS: Miztef

. You changed your mind again. Surprise surprise. There was no reason to unvote, your arguments were good enough. If Sarc says the bandwagon is scummy, that doesn't mean he's right, even if he is not scum. Miztef changed his mind very often in this game, I would like to ask anyone this: can someone please check if Miztef's changes of mind were for the most part done after a post of Sarcastro? I don't know if this is true, but if it is, a Miztef-Sarcastro scum pair would be very likely. Unfortunately, I don't have time to investigate this myself.

Unvote

. I will vote either Miztef or Braze soon, or maybe Sarcastro. There is also the possibility that Sarcastro is scum with Phoebus, but I don't know their relation early in the game. I have to reread a bit, but I'm not sure if I have time for that.

[Lawrencelot]

Ah. The fallacy of confirmation.
Nice.


I say to you what I said to Pattie: Bite me!


You have a person who is following any random wagon/suspicion he gets and then you have me - decidedly muley, yet holding his own opinions and you want to go after me.
Your funeral.

This was meant for me, right? I didn't understand much of this post but it did look defensive. If you don't want to defend yourself against me, that's ok because my accusation was not big, but don't say you didn't defend yourself when you did.

[Lawrencelot]

Sarcastro: you have to understand that if Miztef is scum and keeps siding with you, you are likely to be scum too even if you don't want him to side with you, because scum can't talk at day. But I admit it would be a bit too obvious, and you would have told him at night not to do this if you both were scum.

The replies of both Miztef and Sarcastro to the accusations didn't seem scummy at all to me. My opinion is about the same as Patrick's, only Illumina seems pro-town to me, not neutral. I would like to see/keep pressure on: Phoebus, Braze or Abalidoth.

[Lawrencelot]

Wow, someone posted here. Guess we're waiting for Abalidoth again.

[Lawrencelot]

That's enough for me.

Unvote, Vote: BrazeGoesMoo

. You're at lynch -1 now, so better post something better than "I was tired or indifferent".

[Lawrencelot]

Finally, Day 3... (

mod

: edit topic title, thx)

I remember there was someone with a fake post restriction, who got replaced and lynched. I remember there were some people we were pretty sure of that they were townie or not, but no townie doesn't mean scum. And Sarcastro was going after ryan the whole game, who appeared to be townie, which doesn't work in his favour.

FOS: Sarcastro

I don't think I will vote yet, because if I'm correct this is mainly Sarcastro's playstyle.

[Lawrencelot]

Where are the others?

[Lawrencelot]

Can you tell us why you distrust or trust these players? It is a bit different from the general opinion I think.

[Lawrencelot]

Alright.

Vote: Sarcastro

. Now at least something happens.

Discuss

[Lawrencelot]

Why? Because I was wrong about Ryan? There's so much wrong with that I don't know where to start.

That too, but mainly to generate discussion. You being wrong about ryan is worth a FOS, but now I voted because there wasn't much else to do. Who do you suspect?

[Lawrencelot]

Oh btw, I will be away for 1 week now.

Unvote

. Sorry for double post.

[Lawrencelot]

I'm not saying your scum, I say it is worth a FOS, which is logical because you were going after ryan while he turned out to be town. That doesn't mean you're scum of course, because town can be wrong, it is just a minor suspicious thing. If lynching a townie was not worth a FOS, then I know what I'd do if I were scum.

Then I turned my FOS to a vote to generate discussion, and I explained that it was not worth a vote. Since when is generating discussion is a bad thing? Then I unvoted because I didn't want to keep my vote on you for a reason I admitted was not enough for a vote, and the discussion started.

So, Phoebus, care to participate in the discussion with something more than a vote?

[Lawrencelot]

I was just trying to generate discussion, which didn't work because there are still only 3 people who posted content this day...

I remember that I found Miztef suspicious, because he was always following the main road, always agreeing with others. Sarcastro, on the other hand, always votes for the person he finds scummy, whether others agree or not (which is good), but also pushed for ryan's lynch the whole game. I don't know which is scummiest, but with these 2 opposite behavings I think they are both on different sides, although it's possible they're both town.

And there was some suspicion of Phoebus I remember, but I don't remember why...

I found Illumina pro-town the whole game, that's why I would like to ask PWS why you distrust her.

[Lawrencelot]

I'm looking forward to it. I hope others do the same.

[Lawrencelot]

ZOMG!!!11 someone posted!!!1

[Lawrencelot]

Damn, this setup seemed very interesting, especially Caesar being an SK. I voted to continue obv.