Mastin Academy

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
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Post Post #200 (ISO) » Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:14 am

Post by mastin2 »

I swear, everyone. The Academy is one of the things on my summer project list. I'm going to be getting to it, soon, and I mean that.
But for the time being, not so much.

I did have a student send in a request by PM, figuring I was an expert on walling and asking me if I had any specific tips or if it was just something that took me practice to get good.

As it turns out, the answer's both. I figured it'd be something others could find useful, so I might as well post my response to them.

To be honest, I still struggle with formatting my walls to this very day. I've heard from many people that I'm friends with that my walls are amongst the most readable walls on the site, but they're my friends, and I still see a lot of people say (without joking) that they aren't going to read what I'm writing because it's a lot of words that they see as useless. So I'm still refining my technique. A few things that I've picked up, though, that might help:

-When I know that I'm going to be doing a lot of catching up, I will try to make things have a "flow" to them. Irrelevant things are placed at the top, and slowly transition into the more relevant topics. I also group things. Things about myself will be in the same section, things about townreads will typically be right above or right below that in their own section, things about scumreads will typically be the last thing I talk about in a post, regardless of post chronology. (For instance, I might have a post that quotes posts 65, 59, 28, 79, 90, 69, 40, 100, 20, and maybe even 79 again as a totally random example.)

-I typically break up my walls into multiple posts. While this does somewhat lose the above effect (in that groupings aren't quite as grouped as they can be), it makes the post look less intimidating. Typically, I go by arbitrary criteria: "oh, I've gone five pages on my catch-up, so I might as well post" as one set, and, "oh, it's only been one page, but I'm quoting and/or saying a lot of stuff on this page, so I should probably post" as another, and frankly, more important second one. (Heck, sometimes, if it's a really content-filled page, I can spend an entire post on half a page.)

-Both of those are assuming catching up on the game.
Assuming you already are, the question which comes to mind is...is there a need to wall in the first place? Often, there isn't. You can do whatever it is you want to without walling.

-In general, it's best to avoid wall wars. Nobody really reads them, and it'll just make people assume an arbitrary "xVx", usually townVtown.

-When walling, I typically slow down and apply standards to my posting that I would for writing a novel: cutting repetition out whenever I see it. I never get it all the way there, but I try to even limit basic words, like repeats of "but", of "of", of "to", of "as", and such. That might seem like it's focusing on the wrong things to cut down...but at least for me, it helps
also
reducing repetition in key areas, often because by using synonyms or rewording sentence structure to remove that repetition, I'm also helping to get my argument more succinct.

-In general, I avoid making walls for cases...but should you deem it necessary, again, make things flow--you don't necessarily need to tell things chronologically; you can point them out in the order of their relevance. Let people see how one point leads into the others.

-This also applies to a wall for, say, asking questions. You're not telling a story, but you are asking for someone else to tell you one, in essence. (Rather, it's sort of a "fill in the blanks" type narrative.)

-Even VCA walls are like this: you're pointing out the votes throughout the game, and how they have unfolded, to tell the story of players' shifts and what you think that means.

-Quoting methodology also helps. Don't quote the whole post, nor meticulously break it down. Both have a high ignore rate. When I quote things, I typically group the relevant things together in what visually appears to be a paragraph or two, and then respond with a paragraph or two. I might quote a single sentence, but again, I'm quoting the entirety of a "thought" given in a post, so if I'm quoting only a single sentence, then that single sentence is either the only or contains the entire heart of the thought.

-Speaking of which, I rely on players having read some of the context, meaning I remove parts that are redundant in
their
posting. One common trick of mine is that if they have two separate but closely linked thoughts is to quote the first, address it, and transition my addressing into the second to serve as my conclusion for the first, thus removing the need to quote the second thought.

-A final trick is to recognize that paragraph length matters. In general, paragraphs that are too short make the post look much longer (and thus, more intimidating) than it actually is. (Which is one reason for the grouping of thoughts I do for other peoples' quotes.) I sometimes make that kind of post intentionally as a form of emphasis (line breaks serve as a VERY strong pause in speaking, stronger than a period would be), but in general, I want to have it condensed down.

...But be careful not to go the other way, which is even worse. A block of text is impossible to read. Paragraphs are your friend, not your enemy, and a good paragraph is neither a single line nor a whole short story. It depends on screen resolution quite a lot (and where the message ends up being posted; different forums have different 'widths' for lines wrapping), but at least on my screen, the paragraphs I'm making in this post are ~4-6 lines long, with 4 being a bit on the short side for the final display. (This paragraph was 5, and the above one four.)

Butyeah. Play around and experiment; you'll figure out your own personal methodology for getting your posting read.
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Post Post #201 (ISO) » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:33 pm

Post by F-16_Fighting_Falcon »

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on what sort of environments favor town and what favor scum as far as group dynamics goes.
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Post Post #202 (ISO) » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:37 pm

Post by Antihero »

mastin!

i need you to help me suck less.
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Post Post #203 (ISO) » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:17 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 201, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on what sort of environments favor town and what favor scum as far as group dynamics goes.
Funnily enough, I'm working on something similar. An Academy response would be different, so I want to respond.

Academy responses, however, are...somewhat hindered by the computer I held my academy work on being on the fritz. :igmeou:
In post 202, Antihero wrote:mastin!
i need you to help me suck less.
Hey, you suck less than I do!

I actually consider you one of the top scumhunters on the site. I'd definitely say top-ten. Maybe top-five even. Maybe I've only see you in your good games by some massive coincidence. But in literally every single game I've seen you be in, it's been YOU who's been the town MVP reads-wise. And PR-action-wise. I actually look to you for guidance scumhunting. If you need help, it's in charisma.

Just a quick assessment, of course. But that's been my basic experience: solid reads, decent charisma. Maybe I can help you be a little less vitriolic (hostility does you few favors), but otherwise...
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Post Post #204 (ISO) » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:50 am

Post by Metal Sonic »

will hydra with mastin some time.
oopsies! haha!

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Post Post #205 (ISO) » Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:53 am

Post by Jake from State Farm »

In post 202, Antihero wrote:mastin!

i need you to help me suck less.
Be more proactive and don't play like you did in that game that just ended and you will be better
Show
Things I've learned.
1. It's just a game, have fun.
2. Don't waste time on people who think you are scum. Ignore them and keep scum hunting.
3. Don't take everything so personal.
4. Tunneling sucks (unfortunately I can't seem to stop)
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Post Post #206 (ISO) » Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:18 am

Post by kuribo »

I'd like mastin to give me some tips on staying retired please
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Post Post #207 (ISO) » Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:40 am

Post by FakeGod »

In post 206, kuribo wrote:I'd like mastin to give me some tips on staying retired please
uninstall
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Post Post #208 (ISO) » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:13 am

Post by Serene2 »

we can have a nice long chat about some of the retirement benefits


or not.

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Post Post #209 (ISO) » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:15 am

Post by reinoe »

What should I do if someone claims Bulletproof Beloved Princess as their intro post and there's no cop?
Scum typically need to fabricate reasons for scumreads...

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Post Post #210 (ISO) » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:18 am

Post by FakeGod »

In post 209, reinoe wrote:What should I do if someone claims Bulletproof Beloved Princess as their intro post and there's no cop?
Take it at face value.

I have done that as Beloved Princess, and the town lost with my lynch. :facepalm:
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Post Post #211 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:18 am

Post by Feirei »

help me suck at modding much less please.
I apologize if certain words are misspelled. My sister got too liberal with liquid drinks near the laptop.

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Post Post #212 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:53 am

Post by Antihero »

In post 211, Feirei wrote:help me suck at modding much less please.
i may be able to help you with that

link to sample game?
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Post Post #213 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:52 pm

Post by DrippingGoofball »

In post 207, FakeGod wrote:
In post 206, kuribo wrote:I'd like mastin to give me some tips on staying retired please
uninstall
Cannot find in directory
Paraphrasing a role PM takes seconds, fabricating a good fakeclaim takes an eternity.

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Post Post #214 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:06 pm

Post by Feirei »

In post 212, Antihero wrote:
In post 211, Feirei wrote:help me suck at modding much less please.
i may be able to help you with that

link to sample game?
will do this when im more awake. likely tomorrow.
I apologize if certain words are misspelled. My sister got too liberal with liquid drinks near the laptop.

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Post Post #215 (ISO) » Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:11 am

Post by Metal Sonic »

Is there a course on "writing a good wiki page"

like the wiki thing at the bottom left on everyone's postbit do people actually read that

EDIT: seems like they do. ugh. not sure of the value though
oopsies! haha!

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Post Post #216 (ISO) » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:07 am

Post by Docthorr »

I really need some help. Played a terrible game. Was scum and scumread D1. How I survived for that long is the fault of bad town play more than my own (lurking). + I had less posts than someone who got killed N1...

(I pretty much was in there till end-game, got replaced out because of my vacation. It was more a technicality. The game was over. Town just had to get the balls to lynch the scum.)
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Post Post #217 (ISO) » Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:47 am

Post by Titus »

Doctorr I can help with the scum game. Scum is harder to learn but still deadly.
Show
The scum had the misfortune of Titus being absurdly accurate on day one.Really quite impressed by that.~Drixx

You're letting Titus win the game by herself.Good luck now I guess.You have no chance to win.~Tywin

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VLA Friday nights until Sunday morning.

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Post Post #218 (ISO) » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:11 am

Post by Docthorr »

My town game is a bit better, but still awful.
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Post Post #219 (ISO) » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:28 am

Post by reinoe »

pssh. Playing as mafia is hella easy. All you have to do is kill everyone who's not mafia.

Playing as town is nearly impossible.
Scum typically need to fabricate reasons for scumreads...

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Post Post #220 (ISO) » Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:20 am

Post by TheAdrienC »

If this is still going to happen, I want in on it. It seems like I come off as scum in every game I'm in, regardless of my actual alignment. I think I need to adopt a new playstyle.
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Post Post #221 (ISO) » Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:58 pm

Post by Faraday »

In post 220, TheAdrienC wrote:If this is still going to happen, I want in on it. It seems like I come off as scum in every game I'm in, regardless of my actual alignment. I think I need to adopt a new playstyle.

nah this was a troll thread
are you thinking of me when you're with somebody else?
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Post Post #222 (ISO) » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:16 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 204, Metal Sonic wrote:will hydra with mastin some time.
Yeah, 'bout that.

See that bit in my signature (signatures are important!) that says I'm dealing with mental health issues? They've gotten much, much, MUCH worse as of recently, and I have practically a 100% flake rate from hydras at the moment. You really don't want to offer to hydra with me. You CAN, I suppose, so long as you're under no illusion that the result very well may be effectively you soloing by the end. Butyeah, I'm having incredible mental health issues (chronicled fairly well in the speakeasy for those who have access there), which means that hydraing is a bad idea.

If I'm not playing in any other games, it becomes more viable, but since I currently am, bad idea to try. You never know, it COULD work out, I COULD stay invested the whole time, I COULD run a full hydra game, but there's no way to guarantee it, soyeah. Not a good idea to try, sorry. I WISH I could tell you I can hydra. I WISH I could say this is a problem that I can easily fix, but it's sadly not something that I can just say "hey, I'm not going to flake this time" and suddenly not flake.

In post 221, Faraday wrote:nah this was a troll thread
Most assuredly not. However, Faraday does have the correct conclusion that my ability to help is limited. Not because of a lack of interest to help (as would be the case for a troll thread), but because I'm in no mental state to be of much help. Think of it this way: I'm a professor who is really, really sick and has to cancel quite a few classes, and bring in substitutes a fair amount of times. (You'll note that a fair number of times in this thread, people will ask for help, and get someone there who is willing and able to help. When they cover everything I could do, I'm not really needed for those things.)

When I'm well, I can help. When my supplies aren't lost (my old computer STILL has my notes and whatnot on it), I can give lectures effectively. In-between those times, however, I am unfortunately burdened by things that make teaching VERY difficult for me to do. :/ I sneak in teaching time whenever I can manage it, though!

In post 206, kuribo wrote:I'd like mastin to give me some tips on staying retired please

As the man says, you can check out but you can never leave. It's not really possible. I mean, I guess you could always ask the people who have already
left
how they manage to stay gone...... :P

But seriously. Even people who leave for ages tend to inevitably come back later. In part, I'd say that it's probably very largely thanks to how much of an impression mafiascum.net leaves on us. We don't think of it that much. We think of it as just being a site. Nothing special, nothing beyond any other site. But that's not accurate. There's more. Oh so much more. To it than that. The site is part of who we are. It binds to our soul. The best advice I can really offer to you isn't to stay retired, but to stop actively seeking the adventure. Get some MS hobbies aside from games. GD, speakeasy, GTKAS, the games subsection, Mish-Mash, heck! You're a competent MD theorist; I've seen your work. Get involved in that. It might not let you stay retired, but it'll offer you a distraction that reduces the temptation.

You can also simply stop playing except by invite. I basically have taken this approach, and it MOSTLY works for me; I don't overload myself. (That being said, given my current mental state, this hasn't been working as well for me as it once did. But it USED to work, until my mental health took said turn for the worse.) You'll still be dragged into games (hey, you're kuribo! People think you're a pretty cool guy, 'cause you ARE), but if you're not playing actively, far less than the norm.

In post 215, Metal Sonic wrote:Is there a course on "writing a good wiki page"
Technically, yes. And there IS a page that gives you most/all (not sure 'bout it being inclusive) of the things you can do with the coding on the wiki. (And I do use the term coding, for lack of a better term, since it IS a bit like a language. Every site runs on slightly different methodologies, the MS wiki included.)

However, my best piece of advice when it comes to wiki pages is to pay attention to the formatting of pages you like. See how they're made, how they're formatted, and then simply hit the "edit" button to see how that section/page looks in code. By comparing the code, you can generally figure out what does what. It's basically how I learned to do my rudimentary coding for my articles. (I really don't use much. I use headers, I use links, I link to other pages on the wiki, I put in categories, I sometimes use indents for quotes, I bold, I italicize, and that's really about it. I theoretically can do more, but I've never had a need to.)

Basically, I suppose it really boils down to what you want to write and what you want it to look like. There are dozens of awesomely-formatted Scummer wiki pages, for instance. Some are even legendary for it. (UN for instance. General sentiment about him is "say what you will about his personality, but
da-
yum
, he knows how to format a wiki page.") You can pick up a lot of tips and tricks just by observing and doing, in my experience. Basically, the best way to teach how to edit the wiki is to actually make edits to the wiki. You can experiment all you like on pages that are your own creations, so just go on and explore.

Now, if you have a more specific request, then I might be able to help. For instance, my articles are GENERALLY considered to be well-formatted. (I happen to think they're far from perfect, but are adequate enough to carry the message across.) Just ask, and I'll be there to help!


Soyeah, a tl;dr to everyone: many apologies to the neglect I've given when it comes to responding. My life is not pleasant, so I do what I can in the moments I can afford to.
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Post Post #223 (ISO) » Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:44 pm

Post by Voidedmafia »

I think I'd like to be a part of this academy. However, given that I'm most likely not going to be super into playing again for awhile, I'd like to just stick with modding tips. But I wouldn't mind some gameplay help if we ever play together.

Just, yknow, don't put me as a higher priority right now.
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Also keep an eye for setup review requests.
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Post Post #224 (ISO) » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:20 pm

Post by Astinus »

If this academy is still open, mastin, I'd like to join. Thank you.

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