NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[DrippingGoofball]

DrippingGoofball gave the definite impression

Wut no, it was a

VAGUE

impression. I did say after his fakeclaim that my brain shuts down when I see a riddle or a puzzle. Where do you get "definite" impression????????

[DrippingGoofball]

@DGB, how did you arrive at your solid town read of STD earlier this weekend? Has your opinion changed since then? Based on what evidence?

His train of thought seems forward and honest, even if he's misreading me as scum at the moment, none of the facts of his case are wrong. Only the conclusions.

STD moved his vote constantly and that's a town tell for me.

His interactions with LML are suspect, though.

PJ on the other hand is making stuff up. And there was a vigorous X-bus with LML.

I think between STD & PJ, PJ is the most likely scum actually. The way PJ is going after Glork is utter rubbish, too.

[DrippingGoofball]

considering pj explicitly stated what LML was doing in the very next post and you referenced it and pj's reply 2 posts later!

It made no sense to me, scum.

[Bookitty]

@Mathcam

: Could you possibly make cases in the normal way, rather than using some arbitrary method that I suspect only makes sense to you? Right now, it looks like you're moving people around randomly with +1s and -1s but you don't connect those to any specific events. If you're awarding me a shiny gold star, I want to know what I'm getting it for. I'm not just talking about the long series of numbers recently posted; I'm talking about the lack of reason given for most of your reads so far.

Right now it looks like your figures can mean just about anything you want them to. Saying your figures are based on gut is the opposite of logic and reason. Just using numbers doesn't make it logical. I could give ABR a +1 because I like his avatar, or DGB a -1 because she didn't bring me cookies. If you don't put any reasons down (and I really don't see specific reasons in your posting) then it looks like you're keeping all your options open.

Can you give more detailed reads or support for your up-and-down votes, please?

[Glork]

2.) Glork, however, does not seem much more reasonable. Why are you resorting to cursing to emphasize your points? And you are again avoiding answering my questions by waving your hand at me. To repeat myself:

-> a.) Why are you not voting for VitaminR?

-> b.) Why have you spent more time arguing against wagons as opposed to arguing for your own preferred targets?

-> c.) When you argue against wagons, why are you continually arguing against the weakest possible form (strawmanning) to do so? When MafiaSSK was being wagoned, you falsely acted like the wagon was based solely on theory. When LoudmouthLee was being wagoned, you tried to emphasize the discussion on "why would LoudmouthLee vote Untrod Tripod" as opposed to "why would LoudmouthLee write up this Vote Count Analysis?" And now with DrippingGoofball you are acting like those voting her are doing so because she defended LoudmouthLee, when the stated reasons against her obviously include other aspects of her play.

re: a) and b), shrug? Because I don't feel like voting right now? Here, how about I answer these with one of your own lines from earlier:

Bluntly, I don't care what you'd like... I will pursue potential scum as I see fit.

re: c) IDK, 52, 54, 56, and 60 are all assertions that MafiaSSK's statement about wanting big wagons for the purpose of information is wrong, and therefore he's scum. Sounds like a theory argument to me.
The two LML questions are pretty much the same. "Why did LML vote UT?" Because the VCA pointed to it. Therefore, "Why did LML do the VCA?" implies "Why would LML do a VCA that would lead him to vote UT?"
I'll concede that I didn't the DGB stuff carefully at first, but the wagon is still pretty much gas. It's apparent that you take issue with playstyles that don't line up with what you want to see out of everyone, as you've resorted to calling DGB's posting "dumb" and have turned into a patronizing windbag regarding me and mathcam. And half of the other votes on her were largely unexplained. (Sotty merely listed her as a top suspect, UT didn't say anything.


PEDIT: Didn't mathcam just give a list of reads right before PJ asked for the list of +/- points? Mathcam only posted them because PJ claimed they didn't exist (which I agree is a really silly thing to request, since Mathcam could just as easily have made up the list of +/- on the spot, too). This whole "well this doesn't mean anything and could be made up" bit is incredibly dumb. Anyone can make up any source of notes/reference/out-of-thread material. I could hand-write 5 pages of drivel on sheets of paper, take a picture of it, and claim that I took "notes." Why is this even a thing?

[Porochaz]

considering pj explicitly stated what LML was doing in the very next post and you referenced it and pj's reply 2 posts later!

It made no sense to me, scum.

Do you know when things don't make sense to me, I ask!

Did it not occur to you to ask where PJ got the doc fakeclaim from?

I mean from someone who doesn't understand the rhyme, surely that would be the first thing you would ask?

[CrashTextDummie]

Will post tonight.

[chamber]

@Mathcam

: Could you possibly make cases in the normal way, rather than using some arbitrary method that I suspect only makes sense to you? Right now, it looks like you're moving people around randomly with +1s and -1s but you don't connect those to any specific events. If you're awarding me a shiny gold star, I want to know what I'm getting it for. I'm not just talking about the long series of numbers recently posted; I'm talking about the lack of reason given for most of your reads so far.

Right now it looks like your figures can mean just about anything you want them to. Saying your figures are based on gut is the opposite of logic and reason. Just using numbers doesn't make it logical. I could give ABR a +1 because I like his avatar, or DGB a -1 because she didn't bring me cookies. If you don't put any reasons down (and I really don't see specific reasons in your posting) then it looks like you're keeping all your options open.

Can you give more detailed reads or support for your up-and-down votes, please?

And you don't think this is a scum post glork?

[Bookitty]

In any case, I've updated my list significantly given new information. Here's a rough organization of my reads. I'm not sure I can justify every single one of them.

Probably pro-town: Chamber, Sotty, StD, inhim, PJ, Yos
Slight pro-town read: MBL, KK, GC, VitR, Glork
Not sure: CTD, DGB
Slight scum: UT, undo, CES, BooKitty
Leaning scum: ABR, porochaz

BooKitty was "leaning scum" (again, still mostly suspicion inherited from Seol) until Day 2, where I agree that her revelation about the role-blocking crumb. I agree with PJ that this explanation has some holes in it, though it's an awfully convoluted ploy for a scum to hope to play for some advantage. So slight town bump there.

I'm not sure what to make of DGB -- I think I might actually feel completely the opposite of Glork, that with the seeming inevitability of LML's lynch, DGB might have thought to distance herself from a LML scumflip by doing something so blatantly pro-LML to cause Glork's reaction. Of course, this argument is dripping with WIFOM, but to me it's enough to mitigate any pro-town boost I initially gave her from being so blatantly pro-LML right before the lynch in the first place. I had her as pretty pro-town yesterday...today, not as much.

ABR is probably a pretty controversial element of my list. But here's where I found going through Day 1 with LML-scum knowledge very interesting. I could totally envision a scum ABR making all of his posts with the idea that he'd get on the LML wagon fast and hard enough to give him some credibility later if LML ever got lynched, but never push hard enough to ensure that the lynch happened. The meta he employs makes this very doable -- he can be on an LML wagon and be very insistent about it without anyone taking him seriously, because he contributes essentially nothing in terms of an argument. And then he was quite happy to abandon that wagon in favor of greener pastures that don't get his scumbuddy LML lynched. His waffling between ABR and LML looks, retroactively, like someone who wants to appear anti-LML, but would really prefer to lynch someone else. After his first exodus from the LMLmobile, he gets back on (seemingly reluctabtly) only after prodding by VitR. My only real concern about this argument are the two times where ABR actually does defend LML's posting (posts 309 and 454), which seems slightly off. Nonetheless, reading day 1 with an ABR-LML pairing in mind felt like a very natural fit.

Porochaz hasn't posted enough to get a solid read, but he, like LML, has done nothing to me that seems pro-town. I'm a little surprised by his absence on other people's scumlists -- perhaps there's an argument I was forgetting? In fact, I even found his drunk post a little scummy, though I can't seem to be able to articulate why.

This is exactly what I mean, chamber, if it's not clear. Apart from ABR, he doesn't give any reasoning, and the reasoning he does give on ABR is confused. (At one point he suggests that ABR is waffling between an ABR and an LML wagon.)

I'm not voting him because I have no meta. From his name, though, I was expecting thinking a bit more logical and organized. If I'm wrong, tell me now.

[DrippingGoofball]

I would not suggest anybody give opinions on his claim

, as doing so will only help scum hunt for power. Votes, please -- we have very little time.

Hey Porochaz, I know you're scum and all, but here's an embarrassing quote for you.

[Porochaz]

Hey, it shows you noticed the damn thing.

Want to get your story straight DGB?

[DrippingGoofball]

Hey, it shows you noticed the damn thing.

Want to get your story straight DGB?

Sorry mate I don't argue with scum.

[DrippingGoofball]

Porochaz, please commit to naming 5 players that you think are my buddies.

[Porochaz]

So you're not going to claim, but are you going to imply (i.e., essentially claim) you are a Doc(tor).

I would not suggest anybody give opinions on his claim, as doing so will only help scum hunt for power. Votes, please -- we have very little time.

Just going to quote that whole post where PJ states there was a fakeclaim of doctor and then suggests not to give opinions.

I mean I've quoted it before, so Im repeating myself, but I do so for the reason that he told you exactly what happened.

And yes, he does say "don't give opinions" but there is a difference between "opinion" and "explanation"...

So anyway...

Onto your 5 buddies question.

Let me start off by saying, a game of this size, 5 buddies is a bit ridiculous - 4 if we include LML. I've already stated you and Glork seem to be quite good together and I've also expressed suspicion on undo, mathcam and Sotty. Which by the way, if we are going in to your "case" against me goes against your claims that I am being wishy-washy, but alas, thats for a different post.

[Porochaz]

I will give you an easier question,

Can you list 5 things you have done that have helped the town in any way?

[Save The Dragons]

I'm arguing that

none of KK's voteres was stupid enough to try to carry that dead weight

. If you disagree, I'd like to know who specifically you think tried to save him by voting KK, and why.

I'm going to pretend you're using the word "illogical" instead of "stupid," because otherwise all this is is a shouting match.

I'm also not really sure I'm going to be able to give you an answer you'll be satisfied with. But I'm not going to sit here with my tail between my legs. Agree with me, don't agree with me, call me stupid, call me suspicious, whatever.

First of all, I had at least slight scumreads on all three people on the KK wagon, before the wagon occurred. This proves nothing regarding this argument, but it certainly makes me feel better about it.

Anyone pushing for legitimacy of the KK wagon at the end of the day gives me pause. They're trying to make a case at the end of the day that, yeah, could end badly if it's false. It's a risk if they're scum. But if enough people start to see that wagon as an option for the end of the day, the payoff is huge, and there's a long list of targets that people can suspect.

In the last Oldy game, D1, all ten votes on Mert arrived in the 24 hours prior to deadline. Your hyperbole rings somewhat hollow. That being said, it may be time to shit or get off the pot.

MBL decides to basically play both sides, suggesting it's possible that a KK lynch will occur, but also saying that eh, he'll vote for a bandwagon if need be. It seems plausible that he's trying to cover his bases. Unless he hates me, I'm confused by the need in that post to rail me and then point out that my point had merit.

I'm not going to lynch LML

A no lynch is preferable?

YES

Not sure if she's joking, but she gives no indication as to why she chose to vote KK instead of Bookitty, or even PJ.

You (glork) have stated your intent was for pressure.

At this point I'll probably? lynch anyone not named Glork, ABR, Bookitty, DGB, or Porochaz, and possibly LmL

But seriously, KK coming into thread like 18 hours before deadline and posting a one-liner about being called "she," instead of ANY USEFUL CONTENT OR PRODUCTIVE VOTE WHATSOEVER, is complete horse shit, and it needs to die as soon as possible.

Forgive me for sounding dense, but the "it" in the statement seems ambiguous to me. The two sentences together imply that you're willing to lynch KK. Your explanation of your play that you gave today seems plausible so I'm really not sure what to think of you.

I'm not saying that all three of you are scum trying to avoid LML's wagon any way possible, but I'm not willing to dismiss the chance that no one took the chance to try and draw some attention away from the wagon. If I'm the toy dog yapping that everyone is rolling their eyes at and no one is listening to, then I'm not so sure that the word "stupid" (or "illogical") applies. Lastly, the entire KK wagon occurred before LML made his ultimate dead-weight post, what with the bus and the declaration of no claim. There was momentum towards LML, but there was no guarantee that people wouldn't have picked another wagon. I think any one of you could have been in it to save him, I don't know for certain which one. I could be wrong for all I know and you all are clean. But to me it's worth pursuing now.

[DrippingGoofball]

Onto your 5 buddies question.

Let me start off by saying, a game of this size, 5 buddies is a bit ridiculous - 4 if we include LML. I've already stated you and Glork seem to be quite good together and I've also expressed suspicion on undo, mathcam and Sotty. Which by the way, if we are going in to your "case" against me goes against your claims that I am being wishy-washy, but alas, thats for a different post.

I'm giving you some leeway with the number of buddies here.

Tell me more about your undo suspicions.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Lynch mathcam. PLEASE lynch mathcam. EVERYBODY.

[DrippingGoofball]

Lynch mathcam. PLEASE lynch mathcam. EVERYBODY.

OK OK

VOTE: mathcam

[Save The Dragons]

MBL:

You've asked me several questions, but you haven't really responded to anything I've said. I know you're trying to get a read on me, but I'd also be very frustrated if you suddenly popped up and built an entire case on me based on LML's play. Do you think it's possible LML is aware of his meta and could fake it?

[Kublai Khan]

Seems redundant but.. Bookitty, CrashTextDummie, petroleumjelly, and Yosarian2 are very town.

Albert B. Rampage is acting like a flea.

@MrBuddyLee - Why do you have petroleumjelly as scum?

Did/do people seriously think that KK was possibly getting lynched yesterday? He had (I think 4), can anyone find 8 other players that expressed a modicum of interest?

I don't think the attempt was to lynch. I think it was an attempt to create another option to further divide/demoralize the town and create possibility of no lynch.

Acting like she did not understand the Hickory Dickory Doc(tor) claim is not credible.

Yeah I had to look this up, I'm French, I never heard of such things.

I'm from Quebec too. I know the nursery rhyme. It's a fairly ubiquitous Mother Goose story. Just as

La cigale et la fourmi

is a common fable as well (The Ant and the Grasshopper).

Highly unlikely to read D1 right now.

Why are you unlikely to read D1 after a scum lynch? That doesn't make any sense.

I think it's important to make it clear that busing his scumpartners has historically been a huge and even pathological part of LML's play. I posted this last Tuesday, about twelve hours before LML "slipped" that he was being bused:

That makes it more likely that the "bus" comment was deliberately slipped in to create discord and confusion, IMO.

DrippingGoofball's argument of "it happened once, therefore always" is pretty horrible. Add in the "why me?", the OMGUSing, the sarcasm, and the meta. It's a neon scum-sign.

Tell me more about your undo suspicions.

Oh, and the deflecting, too.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I start out the day by voting mathcam, then he votes for me with flimsy half-baked characterizations, and then accuses me of OMGUS. He's caught. Lynch him.

[Kublai Khan]

I start out the day by voting mathcam, then he votes for me with flimsy half-baked characterizations, and then accuses me of OMGUS. He's caught. Lynch him.

Replace mathcam with DrippingGoofball and you with me and I'm wondering why you aren't voting DrippingGoofball instead of distracting from it.

[chamber]

But not really, right?

[MrBuddyLee]

Do you think it's possible LML is aware of his meta and could fake it?

Sure, it's a possibility, but imo, in his panic at receiving attention yesterday, it felt like he was making mistakes left and right. I personally consider it more likely that he bused at least one partner in hopes of bailing himself out.

@MrBuddyLee - Why do you have petroleumjelly as scum?

I don't want PJ lynched today. He caught scum yesterday by spotting a bad argument and I'm hoping he continues to do so.

I don't think the attempt was to lynch. I think it was an attempt to create another option to further divide/demoralize the town and create possibility of no lynch.

Do you think scum wanted LML lynched, Bookitty lynched, or a no-lynch?