NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[MrBuddyLee]

Breathe in, breathe out, move on.

I voted mathcam because out of everyone who was on LML's bandwagon, mathcam looked the most like the one bussing, although CTD is a close call.

You mean that out of the people on the Bookitty wagon, mathcam looked the most like the one busing?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm tired.

I mean out of the people voting Bookitty, mathcam is the scummiest.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Separate sentence: CTD looks like the one bussing LML the most, out of the LML bandwagon, and is a close call for being my next top vote.

[Kublai Khan]

I'm not going to vote you KK, because there's actually a pretty good chance you're town, but I am going to mime bopping you on the head for that comment.

No problem. I understand that I'm among mental giants here. Do me a favor and explain the scum motivation behind post 1144.

[Glork]

I'm not interested in the Bookitty-Wagon vs LML-busing discrepancy.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, there's a difference between "X defended scum" and "X tied himself to the sinking ship that was his doomed scumbuddy."

I don't know. For most of the day, LML didn't look like a "sinking ship"; there were long periods where I couldn't get more then a few people to say on his wagon. He didn't really look "doomed" until the end of the day, which is when you changed course and got on his wagon.

[Green Crayons]

Heh.

Saying "You defended LML early. This is scum motivated" is no more valid than saying "Glork thought LML was town. This is town motivated."

This might be true if you close your eyes and ignore the scummy behavior I picked out.

-----

Obviously SOME people who weren't on the LML wagon were town. But you're picking the loudest wrong person and just stating they're scum because they defended LML without actually analyzing WHY he did, or what he would have done differently if he were town.

Keep banging that mischaracterization-of-my-suspicions drum. I can tell you it's helping you 0% in convincing me that my suspicions are misplaced.

-----

I want you to distinguish between what

GlorkTownWhoWasWrong

would have done, and what

GlorkScumWhoInexorablyLinkedHimselfToTheMostSuspectedPlayerInTheGame

did.[/b]

Hey, look, this is you making Glork-suspicions about me rather than about Glork. Good tactic to divert suspicion without having to address that suspicion.

Recognizing that, I'm going to follow you down this road -- but only briefly -- so that you can't make my complete unwillingness to humor you A Thing to further take the conversation away from your suspicious play.

1. Post 1069's Point (1): soft defending LML-scum on Page 5 nips suspicion in the bud while still being early enough in the game that you don't have any established connections for your defense to get linked to. This is a scum motivated action.

Scum would do this action for the reasons listed. Town are less likely to do this action because it doesn't criticize bad logic (a town thing to do), but merely displaces the recognized-as-legitimate suspicion on Player X (here, LML-scum) by asking why Player Y isn't also suspected.

2. Post 1069's Point (2): your actions as described -- which notes that you go above and beyond merely being wrong about LML (of course, merely being wrong is not alignment indicative) -- is scum motivated play.

Scum would take these actions for the reasons listed. Town are less likely to do this action because (1) you took an indefensible theory position to refuse to vote for LML and (2) you then created, just for LML, a higher barrier for what constitutes scumminess. Town would not take these actions because they artificially restrict their options.

3. Post 1069's Point (3): your actions as described -- which notes your LML vote being opportunistic after being incredibly anti-LML-lynch all D1 -- is scum motivated play.

Scum would take these actions for the reasons listed. I noted

as I made the original Post 1069

that my speculation as to your motivation might be subject to WIFOM. Interesting, instead of actually defending your actions by trying to explain how they sprang from a town mindset, you have decided to go the route of attack your attacker.

4. Post 1069's Point (4): this point does not describe your play, but LML's, and is therefore completely unrelated to your mischaracterization of my suspicions.

Wait, what's that, Glork?

In 4, you merely state that LML called me town and only mentioned me three times, and inexplicably include this as "evidence" that I am scum.
JUST LIKE IN YOUR FIRST THREE POINTS you just make an observation and conclude that I'm scum from it.

heh. Someone hasn't been reading the thread carefully.

5. Post 1069's Point (5): this point does not pertain to your play in relation to LML, but instead notes that your play is pretty conservative and safe and scummy, and is therefore completely unrelated to your mischaracterization of my suspicions.

Let's get a direct line to the Glork-defense:

And in 5, you're describing a playable and flatly asserting that it's scum. Preeeeetty much the same as the other points.

Actually, I described your play how I read it, and the descriptions I gave

are scummy

. It's scummy because you were an active presence throughout D1 (thus you garnered no lurker suspicion) but you really failed to put out any affirmative suspicions as to who could be scum (thus you escaped pushing a bad lynch). These are scummy actions, and you faulting me for failing to break this shit down is completely BS because this is nobody's first rodeo.

-----

GC, I also defended Bookitty really hard from a terrible wagon on her. Does that mean I'm scum with her, too? I was pretty vocal about that one, and it's consistent with what you claim is GlorkScum behavior.

1. Bookitty isn't scum. Glad to see that (A) you're still trying to hitch yourself to Bookitty's towniness and (B) making this really bad argument that your actions towards other players determine the alignment of those other players, rather than the other way around.

2. It's almost . . . as if . . . I have already spoken about this? Wait. Wait, I do believe so. Yes, I have found it:

(B) Glork latches onto to Bookitty's VT claim is obvtown material. I don't really have an opinion one way or another on that. What I do have an opinion on is the fact that Glork and CES get into this huge, and hugely boring, pissing match about the point. Why drag out the issue over pages?

Recognizing that this could be subject to WIFOM, it strikes me more as Glork-scum realizing he has a (weak) hook to declare town a player who will flip town, so that when that player does get lynched (bookitty a very viable candidate at that time), Glork can tout his town cred by having tried to stop her horribly misdirected lynch. Yeah, WIFOM or whatever, but seriously the Glork/CES thing is just so unnecessarily drawn out, it looks like Glork is really trying to go out of his way to die on the hill that bookitty = town.

3. And you continue this line of defense into your Post 1137, 1138, and 1139 by trying to discredit

how you acted with known scum LML

by suggesting that you might have acted in a superficially similar manner to other players with unknown alignments, and therefore we should ignore the substantively different interactions you had with LML-scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

hugely boring, pissing match about the point

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

@CES

, why mathcam? Also, what's your opinion of Bookitty now?

Mathcam feels standoffish and uninvolved + other stuff. Conflicted on Bookitty - her push on mathcam was dreadful but I'm not so sure she'd have taken the LmLcrumb so far (i.e. to offering up her lynch) if she was scum.

[VitaminR]

inHim's entry into the game doesn't inspire any confidence.

Do you think that makes him scum?

Maybe? I'm not sure I have enough of a read on his personality. I don't think it's necessarily scummy to have low content posts or to be too lazy to read up on the game. But looking only at Day 2 when we lynched scum doesn't seem very pro-town. It doesn't take that long to skim Day 1 with the LML flip in mind.

[Kublai Khan]

Yos, there's a difference between "X defended scum" and "X tied himself to the sinking ship that was his doomed scumbuddy."

I don't know. For most of the day, LML didn't look like a "sinking ship"; there were long periods where I couldn't get more then a few people to say on his wagon. He didn't really look "doomed" until the end of the day, which is when you changed course and got on his wagon.

You didn't think LoudmouthLee was a sinking ship until after the "bus" post?

[VitaminR]

Echoing KK: Can both pj and Glork explain their switch to ABR? I don't get how his Post 1144 prompted those votes.

Glork, you don't have more of a critical reply or anything? I gotta say your attack on me feels pretty lacking in enthusiasm and I'm not sure where that's coming from. I was feeling a little better about you after you outlined the reasons behind your suspicions, which seemed credible enough (I was also sort of swayed by your self-meta), and now you're undermining that again.

I've been busy. You're not off the hook or anything.

Oh yeah, clearly you're busy. Only ten posts in the last two pages. If you really suspect me, you're putting zero effort into convincing anyone of it, given that you're supposed to have spent "a lot of time" looking at interactions between me and LML (Post 944). It feels like you're backing off because you don't think you can make it go anywhere, which doesn't exactly make it seem like your suspicions of me are sincerely held.

FoS: Glork

[Sotty7]

MBL is asking way too many questions with much too little analysis.

If you're really feeling uncomfortable about my alignment at this point, feel free to ask me anything.. and I read everyone's posts carefully before asking those questions, which I think are all pretty relevant. If you see a question that you think sucks, why not ask me why I asked it instead?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p5954858

I'm pretty much swamped with work but keeping up with the thread as much as I can until my day off tomorrow/sat were I can do some actual re-reading.

[Glork]

Echoing KK: Can both pj and Glork explain their switch to ABR? I don't get how his Post 1144 prompted those votes.

Glork, you don't have more of a critical reply or anything? I gotta say your attack on me feels pretty lacking in enthusiasm and I'm not sure where that's coming from. I was feeling a little better about you after you outlined the reasons behind your suspicions, which seemed credible enough (I was also sort of swayed by your self-meta), and now you're undermining that again.

I've been busy. You're not off the hook or anything.

Oh yeah, clearly you're busy. Only ten posts in the last two pages. If you really suspect me, you're putting zero effort into convincing anyone of it, given that you're supposed to have spent "a lot of time" looking at interactions between me and LML (Post 944). It feels like you're backing off because you don't think you can make it go anywhere, which doesn't exactly make it seem like your suspicions of me are sincerely held.

FoS: Glork

I'd gotten home by that point.

[VitaminR]

I'm not really looking to critique your day-to-day schedule or whatever. My general point was just that you don't really seem too busy to respond to me (as evidenced by the fact that I got a reply to that within ten minutes). Surely you can throw out some critical one-liners or a snarky paragraph or two?

[undo]

In this second phase of my D1 analysis, I focused on distancing. Even though the game is chockfull of experienced players, distancing is a standard scum procedure, one which was certainly carried out by some players in this game.

The aim of this analysis

is not to confirm townreads

, but to determine which players kept the most distance from LML during D1, for probability of finding scum will be higher among those players.

Thus, I combed through the whole game (until LML’s lynch) and assigned points to players every time they mentioned or interacted with LML. I then looked through LML’s posts and did the same every time he mentioned or interacted with other players.

Point system:

• Neutral mentions [NM] and direct interactions [DI] (such as asking questions or replying to them) = 1 point
  
• Attacks/explicit suspicions [AS] (including expressed willingness to lynch player) = 2 points

Positive mentions, townreads, votes and FoSes are acknowledged, but not considered for the point count.

These are my results:

VERY FREQUENTLY INTERACTED WITH LML (20+ points)

• Yosarian2 (28 points)
  • ON LML -- [8 NM, 4 AS, 3 DI] + [1 vote]
    
  • BY LML -- [4 NM, 1 AS, 3 DI]
  petroleumjelly (26 points)
  • ON LML -- [1 NM, 6 AS, 5 DI] + [2 votes]
    
  • BY LML -- [3 NM, 2 AS, 1 DI] + [1 vote]
  Green Crayons (25 points)
  • ON LML -- [5 NM, 5 AS, 4 DI] + [1 vote]
    
  • BY LML -- [1 NM, 1 AS, 3 DI] + [1 FoS]
  Untrod Tripod (21 points)
  • ON LML -- [4 NM, 4 AS, 1 DI] + [2 votes (one of them L-1)]
    
  • BY LML -- [0 NM, 4 AS, 0 DI] + [1 vote]

OFTEN INTERACTED WITH LML (12-20 points)

• VitaminR (18 points)
  • ON LML -- [2 NM, 3 AS, 4 DI] + [3 votes]
    
  • BY LML -- [1 NM, 5 AS, 0 DI] + [1 positive mention]
  Save the Dragons (18 points)
  • ON LML -- [2 NM, 2 AS, 2 DI] + [2 votes]
    
  • BY LML -- [0 NM, 5 AS, 0 DI] + [1 vote]
  Sotty7 (15 points)
  • ON LML -- [1 NM, 2 AS, 3 DI]
    
  • BY LML -- [1 NM, 2 AS, 2 DI]
  Albert B Rampage (13 points)
  • ON LML -- [2 NM, 3 AS, 0 DI] + [2 votes] + [2 positive mentions]
    
  • BY LML -- [0 NM, 1 AS, 3 DI] + [1 positive mention]

SELDOM INTERACTED WITH LML (5-11 points)

• Porochaz (10 points)
  • ON LML -- [2 NM, 3 AS, 0 DI] + [1 vote]
    
  • BY LML -- [1 NM, 0 AS, 1 DI]
  Bookitty (10 points)
  • ON LML -- [5 NM, 2 AS, 0 DI] + [1 vote]
    
  • BY LML -- [1 NM, 0 AS, 0 DI]
  Kublai Khan (9 points)
  • ON LML -- [0 NM, 3 AS, 0 DI] + [1 vote]
    
  • BY LML -- [1 NM, 1 AS, 0 DI] + [2 votes]
  mathcam (9 points)
  • ON LML -- [2 NM, 1 AS, 1 DI]
    
  • BY LML -- [0 NM, 2 AS, 0 DI] + [1 FoS] + [1 positive mention]
  CrashTextDummie (8 points)
  • ON LML -- [2 NM, 0 AS, 2 DI] + [1 vote (hammer)]
    
  • BY LML -- [2 NM, 1 AS, 0 DI] + [1 FoS]
  undo (8 points)
  • ON LML -- [0 NM, 2 AS, 3 DI]
    
  • BY LML -- [0 NM, 0 AS, 1 DI] + [1 positive mention]
  MrBuddyLee (6 points)
  • ON LML -- [3 NM, 1 AS, 1 DI] + [1 vote]
    
  • BY LML -- [0 NM, 0 AS, 0 DI] + [1 positive mention]

ALMOST NEVER INTERACTED WITH LML (0-4 points)

• Cogito Ergo Sum (4 points)
  • ON LML -- [0 NM, 1 AS, 0 DI]
    
  • BY LML -- [2 NM, 0 AS, 0 DI]
  chamber (3 points)
  • ON LML -- [0 NM, 0 AS, 1 DI] + [1 positive mention]
    
  • BY LML -- [1 NM, 0 AS, 1 DI] + [2 positive mentions]
  inHimshallibe (2 points)
  • ON LML -- [2 NM, 0 AS, 0 DI] + [1 positive mention]
    
  • BY LML -- [0 NM, 0 AS, 0 DI] + [1 positive mention]
  DrippingGoofball (1 point)
  • ON LML -- [1 NM, 0 AS, 0 DI] + [1 vote] + [2 positive mentions]
    
  • BY LML -- [0 NM, 0 AS, 0 DI] + [1 positive mention]
  Glork (1 point)
  • ON LML -- [1 NM, 0 AS, 0 DI] + [3 positive mentions]
    
  • BY LML -- [0 NM, 0 AS, 0 DI] + [2 positive mentions]

---

Please note:

I am aware this system is not precise and objective – it was not intended to be so. It’s just a way of helping me (and hopefully some of you) look into the right players.

I have yet to analyse this results and interpret them in depth -- I will do it as soon as possible, but for now I’m not making any comment because I don't want to be rash. This may not bring anything new to your table but I personally felt I needed to do this to be sure about my next steps.

[petroleumjelly]

Echoing KK: Can both pj and Glork explain their switch to ABR? I don't get how his Post 1144 prompted those votes.

Two reasons.

First, the "breathe in, breathe out" commentary towards Glork's alleged "tilt" does not seem sincere or necessary. I don't like it.

And second, Albert B. Rampage alleged he had "looked into the players bussing LoudmouthLee" and decided mathcam was the worst (and maybe CrashTextDummie), but neither of those players had voted LoudmouthLee. Even if I was charitable enough to think he

meant

Bookitty when he said LoudmouthLee, the use of the word "bus" would still be wrong unless Bookitty is also scum (which then begs the question why Albert B. Rampage is not voting for Bookitty). It suggests that Albert B. Rampage has fairly artificial suspicions given that his single sentence must be read to have

two

mistakes in order to make any sense.

[DrippingGoofball]

scum is Porochaz & LML

Hey you didn't count this!

[DrippingGoofball]

Echoing KK: Can both pj and Glork explain their switch to ABR? I don't get how his Post 1144 prompted those votes.

Two reasons.

First, the "breathe in, breathe out" commentary towards Glork's alleged "tilt" does not seem sincere or necessary. I don't like it.

And second, Albert B. Rampage alleged he had "looked into the players bussing LoudmouthLee" and decided mathcam was the worst (and maybe CrashTextDummie), but neither of those players had voted LoudmouthLee. Even if I was charitable enough to think he

meant

Bookitty when he said LoudmouthLee, the use of the word "bus" would still be wrong unless Bookitty is also scum (which then begs the question why Albert B. Rampage is not voting for Bookitty). It suggests that Albert B. Rampage has fairly artificial suspicions given that his single sentence must be read to have

two

mistakes in order to make any sense.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Glork]

I'm not really looking to critique your day-to-day schedule or whatever. My general point was just that you don't really seem too busy to respond to me (as evidenced by the fact that I got a reply to that within ten minutes). Surely you can throw out some critical one-liners or a snarky paragraph or two?

Your face is dumb!

Honestly a big part of it is I don't feel like trying to out-argue a bunch of self-righteous condescending twats. For example, I could keep trying to point out the backwardness of GC's approach to "determining" my alignment, but he's clearly beyond reasoning with.

Is that better?

But in all seriousness, it's possible that your explanation is a valid one. It's something I'll take into consideration. Personally I think it's silly to flip between wanting Player X dead and wanting Player Y dead without considering whether it makes sense for X and Y to be scum together, but not everyone approaches things that way. So I have to consider the

possibility

that what you said is true, because it's not an unreasonable explanation. Whether it's the truth or not has yet to be determined.




Re: ABR, PJ pretty much hit the nail on the head. That last post makes me feel that his suspicions are everywhere and nowhere at once. The CTD mention in particular is puzzling to me personally.

[DrippingGoofball]

VOTE: ABR

[Green Crayons]

Echoing KK: Can both pj and Glork explain their switch to ABR? I don't get how his Post 1144 prompted those votes.

And second, Albert B. Rampage alleged he had "looked into the players bussing LoudmouthLee" and decided mathcam was the worst (and maybe CrashTextDummie), but neither of those players had voted LoudmouthLee. Even if I was charitable enough to think he

meant

Bookitty when he said LoudmouthLee, the use of the word "bus" would still be wrong unless Bookitty is also scum (which then begs the question why Albert B. Rampage is not voting for Bookitty). It suggests that Albert B. Rampage has fairly artificial suspicions given that his single sentence must be read to have

two

mistakes in order to make any sense.

How do you feel about ABR's posts 1151 and 1152?

I can see how you could come away with what you did before that explanation, but his explanation makes it clear that his language conflated the LML-wagon with the bookitty-wagon which explains his convoluted sentence without there being two independent mistakes (mathcam suspicion relates to bookitty-wagon, CTD suspicion/the "bus" comment relates to the LML-wagon).

Or do you think that was a quick fix ABR came up with 20 minutes after his post that isn't worth crediting?

-----

Honestly a big part of it is I don't feel like trying to out-argue a bunch of self-righteous condescending twats. For example, I could keep trying to point out the backwardness of GC's approach to "determining" my alignment, but he's clearly beyond reasoning with.

This just in: it's "backwards" to go look at players who said things about a flipped scum, and then suspect a player who first found scummy ways to not find LML-scum suspicious, but then found a scummy way to vote LML-scum when it was clear he was the day's lynch, and whose play in general is not pro-town.

[Kublai Khan]

And second, Albert B. Rampage alleged he had "looked into the players bussing LoudmouthLee" and decided mathcam was the worst (and maybe CrashTextDummie), but neither of those players had voted LoudmouthLee. Even if I was charitable enough to think he

meant

Bookitty when he said LoudmouthLee, the use of the word "bus" would still be wrong unless Bookitty is also scum (which then begs the question why Albert B. Rampage is not voting for Bookitty). It suggests that Albert B. Rampage has fairly artificial suspicions given that his single sentence must be read to have

two

mistakes in order to make any sense.

Well, I'm annoyed because I wanted Glork to answer first. Glork's vote on Albert B. Rampage feels like a "Something's off! Let's focus on that!" distraction.

I recognize that Albert B. Rampage's post was massively incorrect. Obviously he was mixing up people. But again, how is it scummy? If scum are trying to mislynch, then they take the time to make sure their arguments don't have silly mistakes. Because people don't join wagons that are based on bad data. Also, why wouldn't scum-Albert B. Rampage take advantage of DrippingGoofball's anti-mathcam push? Instead he backs off. Doesn't make sense for scum.

DrippingGoofball's vote on Albert B. Rampage... Now that's a scum move.

[DrippingGoofball]

DrippingGoofball's vote on Albert B. Rampage... Now that's a scum move.

Is there any move I could make that you wouldn't consider a scum move LOL?

[Kublai Khan]

DrippingGoofball's vote on Albert B. Rampage... Now that's a scum move.

Is there any move I could make that you wouldn't consider a scum move LOL?

Yes, plenty. You could always boot up the scumputer instead of scrambling to be on the forefront of whatever new trend is sweeping the game.