Mini 455 - Mafia in Theoville - Game Over who won?

[Adel]

I think this idea is gets a warmer reception than my last big idea

WTF?


EBWOP:
I think this idea will get a warmer reception than my last big idea

[Guardian]

Adel, your idea is great! Now that we've directed any doc protection to me, and we are thinking about directing my cop investigation, why don't we direct all other possible power roles so that the scum can plan accordingly![/sarcasm] ...

I think this idea will get a warmer reception than my last big idea

Sorry to burst your bubble, but seriously, I don't think that this is a good idea... letting the scum know where every single night choice is going is decidedly not pro town. Nice try though? Adel, voting for you is starting to look win-win...

[Adel]

Wow. You really are gunning for me, aren't you. No wonder townies so often lurk giving cover to the lurking scum: play as aggressive as your's suppresses participation. Less information = less basis for lynch votes = greater % of a mis-lynch. WTG.

[YogurtBandit]

I still dont think Guardian is Cop. He must be scum. He's claiming cop so early and he gets away with it and now the Doc is protecting him?(Assuming there is one) Its seems like a way to keep the doc from protecting town. If the doc protects the scum, All Guardian needs to know is who the doc is, then the doc gets Nk'ed, Then the real Cop the next night!! If we lynch town two in a row, and two nks in a row, its oh... 5 to 3. At Day 3 it could be a LyLo Sitiuation If we Lynch the real Cop today, I can tell you Guardian is Scum. Im willing to die/be lynched to prove Guardian is not the Cop. You all are probably going to think Im kidding, but Im not. Nanook claims cop for Guardian, Then Guardian is suddenly cop with full doc protection. I feel bad for the doc right now, because they will be gone by the time the Second Twilight comes around. And its all because Guardian is going to lead you all off course.

Unvote , Vote: Guardian

[Guardian]

Adel: Well, from all the games I've been in so far, and not one of them having any activity problems - in fact most of them people comment surprisedly about how ridiculously active the game is, while my play may have (many?) other problems I don't think it can been seen as a participation suppressor.

It got you to respond immediately didn't it? I don't have experience playing to back this up, but from reading games, scum squirm when targeted, whereas townies explain why their actions are founded and look for who the real scum might be. That last post reeks of the former and has nothing of the latter; you even present an explanation of why it is good to lurk... which it isn't...

I am not gunning for you, specifically, I am gunning for all people I see as likely scum candidates, especially when they post more scummy things.

[YogurtBandit]

Adel: Well, from all the games I've been in so far, and not one of them having any activity problems - in fact most of them people comment surprisedly about how ridiculously active the game is, while my play may have (many?) other problems I don't think it can been seen as a participation suppressor.

It got you to respond immediately didn't it? I don't have experience playing to back this up, but from reading games, scum squirm when targeted, whereas townies explain why their actions are founded and look for who the real scum might be. That last post reeks of the former and has nothing of the latter; you even present an explanation of why it is good to lurk... which it isn't...

I am not gunning for you, specifically, I am gunning for all people I see as likely scum candidates, especially when they post more scummy things.

I'd like to see Adel respond to that.

[Adel]

It got you to respond immediately didn't it? I don't have experience playing to back this up, but from reading games, scum squirm when targeted, whereas townies explain why their actions are founded and look for who the real scum might be. That last post reeks of the former and has nothing of the latter; you even present an explanation of why it is good to lurk... which it isn't...

I am an active and confident player, you aren't going to intimidate me. I was pointing out that your style could intimidate other players. And it might.
I put a lot of effort into this thread, and the more work I put into it the more words you type painting me as scum for my efforts. As the target of my wild theory it made sense for you to be defensive, but when I make a post regard a scheme that I think would be pro-town and ask for comment, you dismiss it and add my attempt to your already OMGUSy list of my faults. Go ahead and mis-characterize me some more, but evaluate the vigkill scheme on its own merits and please drop the sarcasm so everyone else can have a clearer understanding of your argument.

[Guardian]

And now the fun starts... I thought there was a possibility that YB was going to claim cop back when he suggested that there are both two docs and two cops.

There is always the possiblity of there being

2 Cops

/ 2 Docs. <snip> The chances that we have at least 1 Cop and 1 Doc are good.

I didn't want to point YB out, as Nanook pointed me out, though...

At the beginning of the game, I asked the mod if I had confirmed sanity, and I do not. I would suggest that YB ask, too. I (no offense YB) don't think YB is tricky enough to counterclaim cop on day one... Although he did wait quite some time to do it, maybe he was considering it and decided to go for it .

Well... either YB is lying scum or we really do have two cops. I am undecided as to whether he is trying to make a counterclaim, and I always get a bad read when someone says that they don't care if they die or not... I don't want to take my vote off because YB very well may be the play for today, but I will be very suspicious of anyone who puts more votes on him at this point.

YB, fyi, it is extremely unlikely that there are both two docs and two cops. Two docs alone almost never happens. Two sane cops alone also almost never happens. What I have been pondering and pondering since YB made that telling post is how likely it is that there are two cops of varying sanity in this particular game...

Also, I ask that DogMom please answer Nanook's questions. I don't want her to let them slide now that YB has claimed.

[Guardian]

It got you to respond immediately didn't it? I don't have experience playing to back this up, but from reading games, scum squirm when targeted, whereas townies explain why their actions are founded and look for who the real scum might be. That last post reeks of the former and has nothing of the latter; you even present an explanation of why it is good to lurk... which it isn't...

I am an active and confident player, you aren't going to intimidate me. I was pointing out that your style could intimidate other players. And it might.
I put a lot of effort into this thread, and the more work I put into it the more words you type painting me as scum for my efforts. As the target of my wild theory it made sense for you to be defensive, but when I make a post regard a scheme that I think would be pro-town and ask for comment, you dismiss it and add my attempt to your already OMGUSy list of my faults. Go ahead and mis-characterize me some more, but evaluate the vigkill scheme on its own merits and please drop the sarcasm so everyone else can have a clearer understanding of your argument.

Ok, it might. I am of the opinion that townies should always post as often and as much as they can no matter what though; that is exactly why lurking is scummy, it doesn't give the other players an opportunity to get a read on you. I tried to describe this earlier when responding to MeMe.

You have certainly put a lot of effort into this thread. I cannot help that I find both your theories incredibly scummy, though. YB's claim brings this to light. For example, say we decide that any potential doc will target me tonight, and I will investigate YB, and he will investigate me. That means that if YB is town he is likely dead tonight, because the scum will know that he is not protected. I would get an almost useless investigation, and a cop would be dead. If YB is mafia, he and his buddies can try and influence the vote and get him doc protected instead so that they can kill me.

Your vigging plan has similar flaws. If we tell the vig who to vig, the mafia can respond appropriately. Maybe by defending the vig candidate if he is a mafia member, maybe because they were planning to kill the same person that the vig is going to kill, maybe by no killing to try and make us think there is no vig, or whatever. They can also try and influence the vig kill just like they would try to influence any vote. In my opinion, trying to definitively give a target for power roles is a bad idea and is scummy. Even though any potential vigilante is not at this point accountable for acting as we would decide him to, if we give him a target to vig kill, the mafia can try and influence our decision and they can take that information into the night.

If all your grandoise plan is trying to do is have people give a runner up candidate as to who they think is scummy, and have that information "officially" there... well I think people should always play that way, and that calling it a vig kill target is bad for the above reasons.

[YogurtBandit]

Well, I was planning on claiming later, but I guess I kind of did. I do not know my sanity, and Im guessing you dont either. Hopefully one of us is Insane, so we can actually make use of it. I dont think the Mafia will kill us until our sanity is known. I said I didnt care If I got Lynched as Cop. Know that there is the possibiltiy of there being two cops, I almost would claim, because If theres only one, and the cop gets killed, the other is scum. However, If I were to be Lynched, We dont know, but I would definetly Fos you Guardian, If I got Lynched and turned up Cop(Well, I f I was alive. Say someone else is cop, lets just call them Bob. Bob gets lynched as Cop, and Bill claims cop as well, Bill would get a FOS.) Anyways, If I dont get Lynched, Then the Mafia must choose between me and Guardian. Again though, Whoever doesnt get killed, will get a FOS. Its a very tough bind we are both in. Anyone who votes us, as you said, will be suspicous, yet, not so, since we could be lying. Its very confusing, and there are a million diffrent ways we could possibly do things. I think we do have 2 cops. Well, The doc should protect one of us at night. Who, I dont care, as long as one makes it into the morning to explain their findings. If its a guilty finding, They could always be Paranoid, Or Insane. Its very befuddling on everyones mind. A Quote from the Wiki:

All variant sanities are uncommon in Mini Games or other situations with just one Cop in the game.

When a Game Moderator uses these roles, the player receiving the role is usually only told his/her role is Cop. Sometimes sanity is revealed upon death, but frequently not, leading to ambiguity if a Cop is killed early in the game.

This tells us nothing, and that gives us much more mystery. But, its nothing we should worry about. Right now, we should worry about Lynching Scum. Hey, If we Lynch one today, and both cops get a Guilty, We could have a 3 day Town win.(Again considering the Mafia do not kill us both nights) Docs, If you are out there, protect who you think is more protown tonight. Just protect one of us.

[Adel]

YB: did you really claim cop in that post? If not, I don't understand your logic.

...

something I missed

you even present an explanation of why it is good to lurk... which it isn't...

I tried to explain why players who are town may choose to lurk- they don't do it because it is bad for town. I even tried to make it clear why it is bad for townie to lurk: it gives cover for lurkers. Making a mountain out of a mole hill + mis-characterizing a comment to warp it into a scum tell. Exactly the reasons why my initial, unexplained, vote was placed on you... as I explained in post #68. Now you are doing it some more.

unvote:Chaos Omega vote:Guardian

for continuing to overstate his case. This may be because of playstyle, but if it is then stop because it is bad for your arguments, increases our odds of a mis-lynch, and makes you look like scum. I am not saying that my earlier NtW+Guardian scum-pairing must be correct, NtW could easily be town while Guardian is scum. I do not know what I think of YB yet.. I need to do a PBPA.

[Adel]

Y'all need to quit posting while I am typing!

[YogurtBandit]

YB's claim brings this to light. For example, say we decide that any potential doc will target me tonight, and I will investigate YB, and he will investigate me. That means that if YB is town he is likely dead tonight, because the scum will know that he is not protected. I would get an almost useless investigation, and a cop would be dead. If YB is mafia, he and his buddies can try and influence the vote and get him doc protected instead so that they can kill me.

Hah! Im not investigating you! Im investigating someone else, some one I think is Scummy.I do think you are, but I also think you are Cop, So I'll save that one for later.
I guess I am Dead tonight. However, If I get the doc on my side you're going to accuse me of being scum so I guess Im definetly dead UNLESS there are two docs.

[Adel]

Your vigging plan has similar flaws. If we tell the vig who to vig, the mafia can respond appropriately. Maybe by defending the vig candidate if he is a mafia member, maybe because they were planning to kill the same person that the vig is going to kill, maybe by no killing to try and make us think there is no vig, or whatever. They can also try and influence the vig kill just like they would try to influence any vote. In my opinion, trying to definitively give a target for power roles is a bad idea and is scummy. Even though any potential vigilante is not at this point accountable for acting as we would decide him to, if we give him a target to vig kill, the mafia can try and influence our decision and they can take that information into the night.

If all your grandoise plan is trying to do is have people give a runner up candidate as to who they think is scummy, and have that information "officially" there... well I think people should always play that way, and that calling it a vig kill target is bad for the above reasons.

First of all each player is an individual, and makes the own choices. As a group we can tell each power role what to do all we want, and they'll still make their own decision. And your logic for how the mafia would react to the group putting their minds together to assist the (possible) vig in making a good decision strikes me as a scummy response: using crap logic to dismiss a pro:town plan. The mafia, in trying to predict the actions of the autonomous individuals playing our power roles will always run into a recursive logic error (WIFOM) so they will never be able to confidently predict who a P.R. will target. Once again, though the logical fallacy of over-simplification, you are overstating your case. That you didn't mention the possibility of there being a mafia roleblocker, the biggest hole in my plan, suggests that:
1. you are mafia and you know that there is a roleblocker
or
2. you are mafia and since there isn't a roleblocker you didn't think of the possibility.

You are wise enough in the ways of mafia to know of that possibility. I was actually worried that another player would point out that hole in my plan before you had a chance to respond. Either you are trying to obfuscate the information I put out because, as scum, you know that I am on to something, or you really need to check your style of play. Either way, you are making sloppy mistakes.

I am so happy with my vote now.

[Guardian]

Adel, your last two posts have been town like. I was going to mention that the first one was good when I responded to it, but I forgot to. The only bad thing about it is that you called my reasons OMGUSy, when I really have put some thought into them; earlier you said you respected my FOS, now you are calling it OMGUSy? What happened that made my reasons get bad?

That being said, I have observed two obvious town players at each other's throats for no good reason in another game I am currently in, so I am going to take a step back and relook at the case against you, as the center of it are your two theories...

My case seems good to me, though, as your theories are so... (no offense) bad, but it conceivably could just be you trying to reason things out.

I think had you not proposed those two theories, especially the first one, my read on you would be different. I cannot shake, however, the obvious scumminess of both theories in question.

I don't see how finding you scummy for your two major theory contributions to the game is at all making a mountain out of a mole hill. Also, the lurker thing was half a sentence of my post, and in this case I think you are the one over-exaggerating a minor point I made.

[Erotomachia]

I haven't finished reading the last few posts, but I just saw YogurtBandit's claim.

unvote: YogurtBandit

[Guardian]

Y'all need to quit posting while I am typing!

:goodposting: lol!

[Guardian]

That you didn't mention the possibility of there being a mafia roleblocker, the biggest hole in my plan, suggests that:
1. you are mafia and you know that there is a roleblocker
or
2. you are mafia and since there isn't a roleblocker you didn't think of the possibility.

You are wise enough in the ways of mafia to know of that possibility. I was actually worried that another player would point out that hole in my plan before you had a chance to respond.
<snip>
I am so happy with my vote now.

A mafia roleblocker would definitely hamper us directing the actions of the potential doc and cops, but how would a mafia roleblocker block a potential vig whose theoretical identity is unknown? Maybe it is you who knows something we don't?

[Adel]

A mafia roleblocker would definitely hamper us directing the actions of the potential doc and cops, but how would a mafia roleblocker block a potential vig whose theoretical identity is unknown?

Think this through a little more.

[MeMe]

YB -- you went from guaranteeing that Guardian is

not

cop and voting him to saying that you believe that there are two cops while neglecting to unvote him. Please make up your mind and then clearly tell us what you've landed on.

Also -- if you are a cop, PM the mod and ask him what he can tell you about your sanity.

[Adel]

Wow. You really are gunning for me, aren't you. No wonder townies so often lurk giving cover to the lurking scum: play as aggressive as your's suppresses participation. Less information = less basis for lynch votes = greater % of a mis-lynch. WTG.

It got you to respond immediately didn't it? I don't have experience playing to back this up, but from reading games, scum squirm when targeted, whereas townies explain why their actions are founded and look for who the real scum might be. That last post reeks of the former and has nothing of the latter; you even present an explanation of why it is good to lurk... which it isn't...

I am not gunning for you, specifically, I am gunning for all people I see as likely scum candidates, especially when they post more scummy things.

something I missed

you even present an explanation of why it is good to lurk... which it isn't...

I tried to explain why players who are town may choose to lurk- they don't do it because it is bad for town. I even tried to make it clear why it is bad for townie to lurk: it gives cover for lurkers. Making a mountain out of a mole hill + mis-characterizing a comment to warp it into a scum tell. Exactly the reasons why my initial, unexplained, vote was placed on you... as I explained in post #68.

Also, the lurker thing was half a sentence of my post, and in this case I think you are the one over-exaggerating a minor point I made.

Am I?

[Adel]

That being said, I have observed two obvious town players at each other's throats for no good reason in another game I am currently in, so I am going to take a step back and relook at the case against you, as the center of it are your two theories...

Oh, it is dirty to post something like that and then continue to state and restate a case against me.

Take your step back or don't.

[YogurtBandit]

I haven't finished reading the last few posts, but I just saw YogurtBandit's claim.

unvote: YogurtBandit

Why the sudden reason to unvote me?

MeMe- In that post Where I thought Guardian was Scum and I was the only Cop,I was unsure about it. In responding to my Claim post, Guardian then started talking "Cop Strategy" with me, and I could tell he was Cop. However, Im only beliving his behavior is cop, but not entirely sure he is cop, because of the possiblity of only one cop.

[MeMe]

So, why are you still

voting

him if you currently lean toward belief that he's a cop?

And have you PMed theopor about your sanity?

[YogurtBandit]

So, why are you still

voting

him if you currently lean toward belief that he's a cop?

And have you PMed theopor about your sanity?

Pressure. and Yes I have pmed him, Im waiting for a reply.