Mini 455 - Mafia in Theoville - Game Over who won?

[YagamiLight]

yeah, my list is upside down, but also Dogmom was supposed to be just under MeMe with that one. Not really an excuse, but I think I was tired.

[Guardian]

DogMom, you had some good content in your last posts, but I was going to post this yesterday, because I really do think you implied that either Nanook or I must be scum, and I think that may have been a slip/badlogic on your part.

I know the game has moved on a lot from this point... But I really read your post like Nanook did and thought that it implied an either or choice. I would like you to address this further.

Note to all players: From here below I typed and finalize yesterday, and I am posting it in it's original form.

Note: I was going to post this earlier (around 4:10 PM EST on 6/5/2007) along with my answer to Adel’s second suggestion, but decided to take a page out of MeMe's book and wait until DogMom answered Nanook's quesions... I think she strongly implied that either Nanook or I MUST be scum, regardless of what she answers to Nanook's questions... But I decided that I should wait and let her answer herself before posting this:

Dogmom, this next post is very very scummy. This bumps you up past MeMe... and about equal to Adel in my scumlist:

An interesting thing that I note is that DogMom also chastised me about this, and then said that she couldn't see Nanook-scum or Guardian-scum .

Sorry - I wasn't clear. I

meant

wish that I had said

that I couldn't see you two as scumbuddies

because saying that you both are definitely town is the opposite of the point that I want to be arguing for

, doing this as a concerted / coordinated effort.

Jury's still out on which one of you I think is scummier

(note how I am setting up an either or choice here!)

. I'm thinking Nanook, but only because

I'm inclined to believe your claim...

FOR NOW

because saying we should lynch the claimed cop first is overkill and would look scummy as hell

.

Isn't it great how I am setting you up as great day 2 and 3 lynches, on the basis that ONE of you MUST be scum?

But YB has a lot of 'splainin to do, so I'm going to set aside the "Guardian / Nanook" thing for now

because I need to think about it a bit before I come up with some more convincing logic to lynch them

.

(the strikethrough and red text obviously mine, not DogMom's).

Let me contrast this with what DogMom actually

did

say:

Un-FoS both of 'em.

I can't see Nanook-Scum

outing the cop and drawing doc protection to him,

and I really can't see Guardian-scum

posting hints right from the gitgo.
However, now I'm irritated at both of them: Nanook for outing our possible-cop, (no, he's not confirmed and I won't 100% believe him until he is) and Guardian for essentially saying "hey, everybody, NANOOK IS TOWN! HEY SCUM! GOT A BIG OL' NK TARGET FOR YA! NO NEED TO THANK ME!"
So :evil::evil::evil: at both of you.

(bolding is mine)

Note the contradictions... and scummy logic...

DogMom why must exactly one of us be scum? - you strongly implied that one of us must be scum in your post. How does that even make sense!? I think the red text I inserted above points out my argument better than my articulating it on my own ever could... YB, Adel, and DogMom all "have a lot of 'splainin to do".

[Adel]

I don't know if I like this vote for Yagami Light business. He finally posts some real content for the first time, and he draws two votes for his troubles, but you will get answers. By my count we still have four players who've basically not posted any content. Does anyone not think at least one of those four must be mafia?

[YogurtBandit]

Unvote

Thanks for clearing that up YL.

[Adel]

A mafia roleblocker would definitely hamper us directing the actions of the potential doc and cops, but how would a mafia roleblocker block a potential vig whose theoretical identity is unknown?

Think this through a little more.

OK, I didn't ask the original question, but I've thought it through and I still don't get it. I'd like Adel to answer: How is a mafia roleblocker going to block a vig if he doesn't know who to target?

With luck Dog_Mom.

[Adel]

Superduper theory #1

Guardian and Nanook are a scum pair who planned out the cop claim and outing in advence

status: discredited

Superduper theory #2

Having a dialog about who a vig should kill presents good information for later analysis, and if there is a vig it would assist the vig in making a choice

status: discredited

Superduper theory #3

The most active players are Adel, Guardian, YB, Nanook, Dogmom and Streeflo. Between 1 and 3 of the scum must be among the remaining players. As a group the active players should pressure the inactive (low content) players into posting a whole lot more. Buying into the "lynch the lurker" meta is the only effective way of exerting enough pressure. Picking apart their posts can wait, asking some questions is fine, but the short term goal is to get as many informational words as possible out of our lurkers and near lurkers.

status: pending review

[ChaosOmega]

The most active players are Adel, Guardian, YB, Nanook, Dogmom and Streeflo. Between 1 and 3 of the scum must be among the remaining players.

Just because not posting could be a sign of scum doesn't mean that any of the people not posting have to be scum. Your theories are getting more and more suspicious.

[Adel]

Note the "between 1 and 3" part. Do you really believe that all 3 of the scum could be on my list of active players?

Nice try.

How about posting some real content, scum.

[DogMom]

DogMom, you had some good content in your last posts, but I was going to post this yesterday, because I really do think you implied that either Nanook or I must be scum, and I think that may have been a slip/badlogic on your part.

I know the game has moved on a lot from this point... But I really read your post like Nanook did and thought that it implied an either or choice. I would like you to address this further.

To clarify.
Again: I had not intended to imply anything of the sort.

Here was my entire thought process. Unfortunately I obviously didn't make it as clear to you as it was to me.

1) BOTH of you could not be scum doing this in a coordinated effort. If you were, it was stupid.
2) Therefore,

if

there was scum there,

then

it was only going to be ONE of you.
3) The terms I used, "Guardian-scum / Nanook-scum", were conventions I have seen used on this site before, to present hypotheticals of "If this person were scum..." These were used to support the "I don't think they'd be working together" as opposed to the "one of them must be scum" part.

Upon reread, I can see how you would've thought it implied that

one

of you were scum. I guess I should've included the IF-THEN statement, and reordered my post a bit.

An interesting thing that I note is that DogMom also chastised me about this, and then said that she couldn't see Nanook-scum or Guardian-scum .

Sorry - I wasn't clear. I

meant

wish that I had said

that I couldn't see you two as scumbuddies

because saying that you both are definitely town is the opposite of the point that I want to be arguing for

, doing this as a concerted / coordinated effort.

I had, in fact,

stated that I couldn't see you as scumbuddies

in a prior post. And the fact that I outright STATED, in a post prior to this one of yours, before you had the chance to try to stick me in the "you're both town is the exact opposite of what I want to say" box, and hence could not have been setting it up as a defense is somehow negated by your pretty red text? Did you miss it?
I'm not backtracking and trying to make out that I said something that I didn't. I'm reiterating points I already made. Linkies provided to be all helpful and stuff.

Jury's still out on which one of you I think is scummier

(note how I am setting up an either or choice here!)

.

Yes, just like...oooo...everybody else? I wasn't getting a good scumread on either one of you. So, just like YagamiLight, who put ChaosOmega, Nanosauromo, and Nekka-Lucifer on the same "line" in his scumlist, I've pretty much said here that neither of you are really coming across any scummier than the other.
Would it have made you happier if I'd have made a pretty little scumlist for you? Not going to - I happen to think those help scum more than they do town.

I'm thinking Nanook, but only because

I'm inclined to believe your claim...

FOR NOW

because saying we should lynch the claimed cop first is overkill and would look scummy as hell

.

Or, say, because I think lynching a claimed cop is

stupid

and

anti-town

and

scummy as hell

. Not just "looks" all of those things: "IS" all of those things.

Isn't it great how I am setting you up as great day 2 and 3 lynches, on the basis that ONE of you MUST be scum?

*snort*
Thanks for giving me so much credit as to be able to steer the town any way I want it to go. No, really. How in the heck am I setting anyone up for a lynch here? I'm expressing my suspicions and thoughts about the game.

But YB has a lot of 'splainin to do, so I'm going to set aside the "Guardian / Nanook" thing for now

because I need to think about it a bit before I come up with some more convincing logic to lynch them

.

(the strikethrough and red text obviously mine, not DogMom's).

More accurately, because

right now

I think it's two townies that both did something that wasn't the best idea, and going after either one of them would not be beneficial to town.

DogMom why must exactly one of us be scum? - you strongly implied that one of us must be scum in your post.

Yeah, which is why I said

in a prior post

that I thought you two couldn't be working together, and then in the post you're focusing on, I Un-FoSed the both of you. Why bother, if I want to "keep the heat on"? If I'm setting one or the other of you up for a lynch, or saying you're scummy, how exactly does Un-FoSing you both accomplish this?
Look. At this point, I do think you're town. Both of you. I also think you've both done some stupid and scummy things. Those stupid and scummy things are currently overshadowed by the townie-ness of most of your content. However, I'm not going to say
"DogMom Seal Of TownieNess, I Say That these guys are 100% Town For The Rest Of The Game". No townie can say "I believe, 100%, that these guys are town and that won't ever change."

How does that even make sense!? I think the red text I inserted above

points out my argument

puts words that DogMom didn't say and never intended into her mouth

better than my articulating it on my own ever could... YB, Adel, and DogMom all "have a lot of 'splainin to do".

Color change on that last one courtesy me. Since you like Strikethroughs and Red Text and all.

And oh, by the way, I'll concede that you merely posted what you

thought

I was saying, but hey, not what I said. I do apologize for being obviously less-than-clear about my suspicions and where my thoughts were going. I thought I was obvious as the sun, but apparently I was only as obvious as the sun during the New Moon on a completely Overcast Night.

Taking what I actually said and twisting it all around like taffy until it says what

you

want it to say: scummy.

[DogMom]

The most active players are Adel, Guardian, YB, Nanook, Dogmom and Streeflo. Between 1 and 3 of the scum must be among the remaining players.

Just because not posting could be a sign of scum doesn't mean that any of the people not posting have to be scum. Your theories are getting more and more suspicious.

I agree here that "not posting=/=scum"; however, "not posting

DOES equal

anti-town". The only

sure

weapon town has is the lynch. We can't vote carefully and well without posts from everyone, to analyze, take apart, and look for patterns. Some of those patterns may be erroneous, some may not. However, it's necessary for

everyone

to participate, because if someone isn't participating in the game, we just can't tell whether they're scum or town.

[YogurtBandit]

Note the "between 1 and 3" part. Do you really believe that all 3 of the scum could be on my list of active players?

Nice try.

How about posting some real content, scum.

I'd like to see CO reply to that.

[Adel]

DogMom why must exactly one of us be scum? - you

strongly implied

correctly guessed

that one of us must be scum in your post. How

does that even make sense!?

did you know!?!

Sucks, doesn't it. I do not think that technique will help us find scum. Even if you are correct, the technique is so crappy that I will never buy it. Not scummy, crappy. As in "sharing the primary attributes of fecal matter."

[MeMe]

Adel -- if your theory is that between 1 and 3 scum are among the less active...that means you believe that up to 2 scum could be in more active group. Because of that, this is next-to-useless in practicality. We could take pretty much any six random players and say "at least one of those are scum" and probably be right.

I'll also point out that it's a mistake to judge a higher word/post volume to be synonymous with higher content -- though I'm certainly in favor of getting those who

truly

aren't contributing to do so.

[Adel]

"As a group the active players should pressure the inactive (low content) players into posting a whole lot more." The word count in not the sole indicator for content, but it helps. In my opinion YagamiLight (just as an example) only has one content-filled post so far in the game, which happens to be fairly long but didn't have to be. Content can be concise.

The players in my "active group" in my opinion, have posted the most content. They (we) are also the only players to be seriously considered in thread as scum. The result being that engaging in the pro-town activity of posting content gets you on a scum-list and probably a vote or two. Active players only scum-hunting among active players is bad for town. My suggestion is to turn that dynamic on its head and start with a scum list comprised of the most inactive players. By being attacked (or pressured or bullied or whatever) they will be forced to defend themselves or find themselves in a post-or-hang situation.

[DogMom]

DogMom why must exactly one of us be scum? - you

strongly implied

correctly guessed

that one of us must be scum in your post. How

does that even make sense!?

did you know!?!

Sucks, doesn't it. I do not think that technique will help us find scum. Even if you are correct, the technique is so crappy that I will never buy it. Not scummy, crappy. As in "sharing the primary attributes of fecal matter."

Man, I sure do wish I really had all this great power and knowledge everyone keeps

attributing to me.

The game would be so much easier.

[Guardian]

Active players only scum-hunting among active players is bad for town. My suggestion is to turn that dynamic on its head and start with a scum list comprised of the most inactive players. By being attacked (or pressured or bullied or whatever) they will be forced to defend themselves or find themselves in a post-or-hang situation.

OK, I take it back, third time is the charm. I really like that theory, and I kind of disagree with MeMe - by half (or so) of us being really active, we may be letting the scum lurk in the shadows. It is not necessarily true that 1, or 2, or all the scum are among that group, but getting them to contribute

can't

be bad for the town.

Also Adel... your criticism of my technique was constructive. I will at some point try and rephrase my case against DogMom. Barring scumminess in your pbpa's, you are moving much closer back towards "suspicious of, but no real read on" rather than "more likely to be scum than not".

[MeMe]

Adel -- I assumed that because you used the phrase "active" you meant "talking the most." My mistake, apparently.

And aren't you voting Guardian? How does that make sense in light of your newest proposal?

[MeMe]

Should be "word 'active'" or "phrase 'most active'" above, obviously. I know that a single word isn't a phrase.

[ChaosOmega]

Note the "between 1 and 3" part. Do you really believe that all 3 of the scum could be on my list of active players?

Yes.

The person who I'm most suspicious of right now is YogurtBandit, and you're saying it's inconceivable that 2 of the other people on your list could be scum as well? I'm not saying it's probable, and I do agree that some people need to post more (myself included, I've been busy the past couple days), I was just saying that it's possible.

[YogurtBandit]

Note the "between 1 and 3" part. Do you really believe that all 3 of the scum could be on my list of active players?

Yes.

The person who I'm most suspicious of right now is YogurtBandit, and you're saying it's inconceivable that 2 of the other people on your list could be scum as well? I'm not saying it's probable, and I do agree that some people need to post more (myself included, I've been busy the past couple days), I was just saying that it's possible.

I'd like to know why you suspect me.

[ChaosOmega]

Same reason as before. It just looks like you're posting a lot of fluff.

[Adel]

And aren't you voting Guardian? How does that make sense in light of your newest proposal?

Oh, yeah. I was holding a grudge, and expecting to be 0-for-3 with this crowd.

unvote

Fos: ChaosOmega, Nekka-Lucifer, Nanosauromo, Erotomachia, MeMe, YagamiLight

for being behind the curve in posting content, pretty much in that order. YagamiLight gets another special notice for being almost perfectly non-scummy, which I am beginning to think is a scum tell. Do something scummy or I will be forced to think you are scum.

[YogurtBandit]

Same reason as before. It just looks like you're posting a lot of fluff.

Which posts do you think are Fluff?( Id like a PBPA)

[YogurtBandit]

And aren't you voting Guardian? How does that make sense in light of your newest proposal?

Oh, yeah. I was holding a grudge, and expecting to be 0-for-3 with this crowd.

unvote

Fos: ChaosOmega, Nekka-Lucifer, Nanosauromo, Erotomachia, MeMe, YagamiLight

for being behind the curve in posting content, pretty much in that order. YagamiLight gets another special notice for being almost perfectly non-scummy, which I am beginning to think is a scum tell. Do something scummy or I will be forced to think you are scum.

You voted him because you expected to be 0 for 3?

fos:Adel

The last sentence is an Oxymoron.

[Adel]

How about posting some real content, scum.

...still waiting.