Mini 455 - Mafia in Theoville - Game Over who won?

[Adel]

So we've heard from Nanosauromo. I would still like Chaos_Omega to explain why his vote is on me. Is it still just because of the two lines he quoted a while back?

[Guardian]

I definitely want to hear

more

from NanoS. He said your scumminess built, he said nothing definitive about what made your scumminess build.

[NanookTheWolf]

How the guy (NanoS), can change within a day like that is still baffling to me. Also, explain the not scummy portion of your post regarding me pls Nano.

[Nanosauromo]

How the guy (NanoS), can change within a day like that is still baffling to me. Also, explain the not scummy portion of your post regarding me pls Nano.

You've not done anything really scummy except in the beginning of the game. ("Following Gaurdian's logic" when there was no real logic to be found.)

[NanookTheWolf]

I kept my vote on you because nobody was acting particularly scummy;

you were simply the least non-scummy player (If that makes any sense).

There was no-one to change to, so I kept it on you. By the time Adel's scumminess was accumulating, any negative opinions I had about you had mostly withered away. Thus, the change.

You stated a day earlier the following ...

Gaurdian's leaning towards scum,

due to the scummy Nanook following his lead.

I'm not familiar with breadcrumbing, but it seems like he started doing it way too early.

As for Yogurt (one of my favorite words, BTW), I haven't formed a clear opinion on him yet.

So what you're trying to say is that you still think I'm scummy, but less then that of Adel? Is that basically it, cause if it is then I don't know why the hell I put any effort towards this argument.

[Adel]

Did that count as hearing more from Nanosauromo?

[NanookTheWolf]

In who's eyes?

In regards to Guardian, I'm sure it wasn't enough .. I think Nano basically answered my question, although I think I did most of the work in figuring it out .. Anywho.

[Guardian]

NanoS, even if you are just restating what others or yourself have said, explain clearly why you think Adel is the most scummy.

Now!

[NanookTheWolf]

There's your answer.

[Adel]

Oh, sorry, I just asked a rhetorical question. I don't think he has been very forthcoming or cooperative. Anti-town.

Take a look at his post history, and compare it to any player other than NK or Battle Mage. Compare it to ChaosOmega. There is a clear difference in post content and quality. Nanosauromo is way below average.

While lurking does not = scum, lurking is anti-town. Have any of his posts been insightful or informative? No. He has continued to post as little as possible, engaging the conversation as little as possible, without utterly disappearing. His positions have been unoriginal, his and votes have been against the easy targets and placed without providing the rationale behind them.

For me his evasiveness is is primary scumtell.

[Nanosauromo]

The reason I haven't been posting much is because I HAVEN'T NOTICED ANYTHING WORTH POSTING ABOUT. I have nearly nothing to go on. If there's nothing for me to analyze, then I can't analyze anything.

What do you want from me?

[Adel]

unvote:ChaosOmega vote:Nanosauromo

I'm waiting for answers from ChaosOmega and a good long example of Batle Mage working his magick.

[Nanosauromo]

So you change your vote from CO to me, then

in the same post

declare you want answers and explanations from CO and BM, without any mention of me?

[Adel]

Yep. I'm glad you're tracking this thread so closely. See anything worth posting some analysis about yet?

[DogMom]

Guardian, a thing that my mind has just brought attention to me, I was thinking if we really are both cops, The Mafia could kill one and blame the other for lying. Which would kill both cops, If not both townspersons. I mean come on. We must really be aware that lynching one of us isnt the smart thing to do.

Even if I am scum, would I really want you lynched? No.

(bolding mine)

Why? If you're scum, why would you

not

want the cop lynched? You

say

you-scum could have him NKed, but he's a

claimed cop

. You really think that if we have a doc, there's not at least a 50% chance the doc is gonna protect him? And if the doc thinks you're lying, then yeah, Guardian-cop's chances of being protected go

way

up. You-scum's ONLY chance at getting a SURE kill of the cop will be to have him lynched.

If you weren't trying to get him lynched, why did you claim? Why the "Oh, I don't believe Guardian's a cop, he can't be the cop, I'm gonna vote him" post if you don't want him lynched?

This post isn't making sense to me at all. You're just getting more and more wrapped up in your contradictions.

Re: Nanosauromo. Man. Pops in just to post a couple things that basically wind up to be "my post is my cite" then bops out again, even though he's "constantly checking" on this thread. STILL, after over 17 pages, has NOTHING to say. Gimme a break.

FoS: YogurtBandit & Nanosauromo

[MeMe]

I could pretty easily switch to Battle Mage.

[theopor_COD]

BM'S getting a prod. Votecount later.

[theopor_COD]

Votecount 9

Nanosauromo 4 - MeMe, Adel, Erotomachia, NanookTheWolf
Adel 3 - YogurtBandit, ChaosOmega, Nanosauromo
ChaosOmega 1 - Guardian

Not voting - Battle Mage, DogMom, YagamiLight, Streeflo

7 to lynch someone, deadline is erm 5 days and 10 hours 30 mins away.

[Guardian]

unvote vote Adel

.

My reasons are there, I can re-summarize and go back and quote and all that if you all feel that it is necessary.

NanoS, please do (re)state, clearly and in one post, your case against Adel. Go back and quote what she has done that you thought is scummy, summarize why it is scummy etc. Go build a case!

I think NanoS is a confused townie and something of an easy target. NanoS, please do as I am asking. If you don't after all this prodding, I could envision you being new scum that is lurking on purpose. Even if not scum, if you completely refuse to give reasons why Adel, or anyone for that matter, is scummy, then you are definitely being anti-town (town aligned, but doing nothing to help us win).

[Streeflo]

I don't think Nanos is acting scummy. Maybe not as helpful as he could be, but not scummy.

[Nanosauromo]

Okay, time for the list of scummy Adel quotes:

Here is another crazy idea I just thought of: In addition to or regular vote in the regular format we also post

VigKill: Player ZZZZZ

and

un:Vigkill

. Based on the games I've read, 50-75% of these games have a vig, but they usually don't do much good, killing townies or not killing at all.

This just provides more information for the scum, while distracting people from discussion of the lynch.

YagamiLight gets another special notice for being almost perfectly non-scummy, which I am beginning to think is a scum tell. Do something scummy or I will be forced to think you are scum.

See the too townie Fallacy / Catch-22.

12 pages in 7 days so far... will we need more than 24 pages to lynch someone? It is just a mini.

Could the rest of the town please vote? If someone gets to -3 or -2 to lynch, then don't, but we can at least use our votes to pressure some content out of those we consider may be scum.

Rushing the town to vote is bad.

Do not lynch until there are

two

probable candidates, each with about enough support to lynch. This will force players to take a pretty serious position on two players, which will be good information regardless of the results of investigations and the eventual lynch.

Yet you've already listed several scumm candidates, including Nanook, ChaosOmega, YL, and myself.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That just about sums it up.

[Guardian]

OK NanoS, that case is not complete nor airtight, but I do agree with your analysis that those quotes can be seen as scummy, and I think they are among a plethora of good reasons for Adel to be the play.

For the remainder of the game, when you find players suspicious, quote reasons why, or explain why if what was suspicious was in close proximity! Also, asking questions or making requests of people can be helpful in tracking down scum. Keep content like that coming!

Adel, I really feel that you are a good play for today. Feel free to find someone better/convince me otherwise.

[Adel]

Guardian: I think I've one of the two good candidates, and I'll show you why:

Okay, time for the list of scummy Adel quotes:

Here is another crazy idea I just thought of: In addition to or regular vote in the regular format we also post

VigKill: Player ZZZZZ

and

un:Vigkill

. Based on the games I've read, 50-75% of these games have a vig, but they usually don't do much good, killing townies or not killing at all.

This just provides more information for the scum, while distracting people from discussion of the lynch.

Incorrect. The additional information would assist power roles much more than scum, as well as establish clearer relationships between players for deeper analysis later in the game. It may help prevent a cop from investigating the target of a vig. It may help a vig make an informed decision about who to target. I don't like how the criticism of this idea turned to "don't tell the power roles what to do, " because any suggestion will only be a reccomendation there is no way to enforce it. Also coordination between power roles, even when in public, may grant an edge to town. For instance,

if

we decided that it would be better if both cops didn't target the same person, one cop could say "I'll investigate one of these three names," then the other cop could investigate someone else. If we decided that it would be better for both cops to investigate the same person, to help establish sanity, alignment or whatever, that decision making process would have to be in the open. If we had a vig, he could say "tonight I'll target one of these two people" and would thereby reduce the chances of a cop wasting an investigation on a corpse. Having that information necessary for this process in the open for the scum to see wouldn't benefit the scum nearly as much as it would benefit the town. That is why Nanosauromo's claim that my ploy would "just" provide information for the scum is not fair or accurate.

Would the information gleaned from this process distract people from the discussion of the lynch? No. An example: currently I think Nanosauromo is our best target for a lynch, and ChaosOmega would be my second pick. That is the exact same information that I was asking for in my post. The only difference being that I suggested that the second pick should be set off from the rest of the post by being in the format

VigKill: Player ZZZZZ

. That is all the effort it would take from each player, hardly a distraction. There would be no reason to have a majority, it would be a clear way to provide more information, reducing the signal to noise ratio.

YagamiLight gets another special notice for being almost perfectly non-scummy, which I am beginning to think is a scum tell. Do something scummy or I will be forced to think you are scum.

See the too townie Fallacy / Catch-22.

This was a little tounge-in-cheek, and a little zen, and widely misunderstood. I would expect the superior scum player to maintain a low profile and drop zero or nearly zero scum tells through careful and conservative posting. YL fits that profile. I get the wiki article, and I could deconstruct it as being the work of two specific players who can be called out by that argument, but I do not know for sure that is true. Be weary of the wiki, it is not the Bible, and anything in it can be meta-gamed is people take it too seriously. Be skeptical. I am skeptical of my own judgment, because I am familiar with my capacity to be wrong. In my opinion, YL is the least scummy player, and I have said that in a couple of other posts, both before and after the post in question. Since I see YL as the least scummy, I am weary of YL. That is how my mind works, and I was trying to share what I saw as being a possibly valuable insight. Take it or leave it, but it is not a reason to indite.

12 pages in 7 days so far... will we need more than 24 pages to lynch someone? It is just a mini.

Could the rest of the town please vote? If someone gets to -3 or -2 to lynch, then don't, but we can at least use our votes to pressure some content out of those we consider may be scum.

Rushing the town to vote is bad.

I love how you accused me of trying to speed the game up, and your second post after that you accused me of trying to slow the game down, calling both scumtells. I think it is disingenuous for you to only repeat one of your accusations. What made you decide which one to post?
Notice that I posted a graphic shortly after my plead for more votes, a graphic that didn't have nearly as much information as I hoped it would. More votes cast by more players would've improved the informational content of my graphic. I wasn't asking for a lynch, in fact I specifically asked people to stop 2 or 3 votes short of a lynch. I posted the other reason for my plea, that more votes would = more pressure, that could force more content from those we suspect. I do not see how this quote is damning either.

Do not lynch until there are

two

probable candidates, each with about enough support to lynch. This will force players to take a pretty serious position on two players, which will be good information regardless of the results of investigations and the eventual lynch.

Yet you've already listed several scumm candidates, including Nanook, ChaosOmega, YL, and myself.

... and Guardian earlier. This was another idea that I thought may help town. I thought that in the interests of clear information, and to help us be sure of or choice for the lynch, a debate of the merits of two probable candidates would allow us to brainstorm and generate more conclusive evidence inditing or clearing each candidate. I do not know how we would select the two candidates, but suppose we as a group choose Nanosauromo and Adel as the two candidates. All players could debate the merits of each, generating more actual content for later analysis, and if a majority or super majority (8 players) felt really confident of one of the candidates I think that would improve our odds of a good lynch. If a majority didn't feel confident, we could move on to the next most probable candidate. To give this plan a chance to work, I even went so far as to suggest that a time extension should be requested. Notice Nanosauromo snipped that part off.

This is my case against Nanosauromo
His posts are not ever insightful or informative? He has continued to post as little as possible, engaging the conversation as little as possible, without utterly disappearing. His positions have been unoriginal, his votes have been against the easy targets and placed without providing the rationale behind them. He has been uncooperative. Is accusations against me are weak, recycled from others, and not objectively argued. Notice his omissions. Notice his evasiveness. Notice we never got a "The List Of People Who Seem Scummy To Nano" post. We got excuses for why he wasn't posting analysis.

Could he be a poor player who is not capable of generating analysis? Yes. I would not be comfortable lynching Nano until we get more from CO and BM. I would also like to see a little more from Streeflo and Ecto as well right now. I would like to see Dog_mom and Nanook take serious stands for and against a couple of people. I would love to see MeMe drop a 7 paragraph logic bomb on this thread. I would like to see all of the above before we lynch anyone, and I am beginning to worry about the deadline. Less than 5 days now. YB is out of consideration because of his claim, CO shares some faults with Nano, but Nano is the best candidate for scum that I can see.

Why am I innocent? I take risks. I am not afraid to look a little scummy in the interest of generating ideas that may help the town. I continually generate new ideas and analysis, original opinions and asking questions. Even with outspoken and articulate critics, I've continued to produce. My major sin so far is the number of words I've produced. A few errors in tone and syntax have caused a distraction for the town, and that hasn't helped me or the town. I am intellectually honest, I've admitted when I think I've been wrong. I think it is obvious that I try to present arguments fairly and dispassionately. I am alway trying a new way of helping the town. Because I have not been afraid of looking a little scummy I've taken several intellectual risks by forwarding possible ploys for consideration. Some of my ideas have been flawed, but I believe my intent and alignment have shown through. My towniness is showing.

[Nanosauromo]

This was a little tounge-in-cheek, and a little zen, and widely misunderstood. I would expect the superior scum player to maintain a low profile and drop zero or nearly zero scum tells through careful and conservative posting. YL fits that profile. I get the wiki article, and I could deconstruct it as being the work of two specific players who can be called out by that argument, but I do not know for sure that is true. Be weary of the wiki, it is not the Bible, and anything in it can be meta-gamed is people take it too seriously. Be skeptical. I am skeptical of my own judgment, because I am familiar with my capacity to be wrong. In my opinion, YL is the least scummy player, and I have said that in a couple of other posts, both before and after the post in question. Since I see YL as the least scummy, I am weary of YL. That is how my mind works, and I was trying to share what I saw as being a possibly valuable insight. Take it or leave it, but it is not a reason to indite.

That's a WIFOM, am I right?

[Adel]

Where is WIFOM in Aristotle's

Organon

? Did you have some advanced coursework that presented WIFOM as a topic? No, you read about it on a wiki, or saw it used as a counter argument in a game.

Anyway, what I did is an example of deductive reasoning:

1. Good scum

may

try to stay hidden by playing as moderately as possible, and not dropping any scum tells. (Major premise)
2. YL is playing as moderately as possible, and is not dropping any scum tells. (Minor premise)
3. Therefore YL

may

be scum.

If you want to attack my argument, attack either the major or the minor premise. Discarding my argument as being "too townie" or "WIFOM" is sloppy thinking.

And, to be fair, I asked YL to start taking risks, to stop being so careful and moderate in his posts. That way he would be more likely to make more mistakes. If he is scum, my assumption is that his mistakes would be greater. Either way, I wanted him to take more actions for later analysis.