Mini 456: Ultimatum Mafia - Game Over!

[Yosarian2]

You voted for the person that Mr Stoofer and The Fonz had just voted for, piling the third vote onto that bandwagon, and now you're saying it was just a random vote? Seriously?

[dylan41985]

yes

[mneme]

FWIW, I think they're both scum. Sparks, dylan was a great choice, as someone who was acting about as scummy as you were (if in some very different ways).

Sparks has a good point that scum are slightly less likely than town to be agressive, hyperactive, and disrespectful. (that said, the sudden improvement in Sparks' play over the last few days isn't entirely sufficient to outweigh his poor earlier play).

dylan, I agree with Fonz: please explain why you think those six players are least scummy.

Sparks, why did you initially talk about challenging me, then change your mind and challenge dylan instead?

Dylan, please don't talk about a running game.

Sparks: I think it's fairly clear from your play over the weekend that you're not a complete newbie -- as you said, your first game -on this site-. So Dylan has a point that his scummy behavior must be taken in the light of his lack of experience.

DanMonkey's votepost: so scummy. Dean's also pretty scummy (hypocritical).

Re my speculation that scum can talk during the day:I'm still not convinced they can't -- though the best evidence for same is Spark's "joke". Given that the scum don't have a kill, giving them day conferencing is an obvious way to design the game (though if Sparks turns out to be scum, it seems likely that they can't talk during the day, for the obvious reason). It would be a strong power -- not least in that better players among the scum could give advice to worse players. But the results might produce weird posting patterns, which might be noticeable.

In sum? I feel personal animosity toward Sparks because I find his playstyle so unpleasant, and he's been easily scummy enough for me to justify a vote. On the contrary tentacle, dylan's if anything been even more scummy and shown more favoritism, and his speculation that Sparks had a coterie of scumbuddies waiting to pounce shows a misunderstanding of basic mafia principles rivaling only Deanwinchester's own. On the gripping pincer, dylan's inexperience isn't itself a scumtell, and he has no single tell as strong as Sparks' "joke". So I'm leaning toward voting to keep dylan (for now) -- but really, barring the inevitable alignment reveal, whichever this vote goes, I'm happy.

[Yosarian2]

FWIW, I think they're both scum.

Agreed.

[Guardian]

prods have been sent out to those who have not posted after the challenge, according to our prod schedule.

[VanDamien]

First, Rules FTW:

Roles

You are

the liberal mafia with AAA and CCC.

You may talk with your fellow mafia until the game starts. The game will start 24 hours after the last confirm is in. I will notify you when this occurs. You may

NOT

PM your fellow mafia once the game begins.

Win condition: The liberal mafia is alive and outnumbers or equals all others still in the game.

Please confirm by PM

.

You are

the conservative mafia with XXX and ZZZ.

You may talk with your fellow mafia until the game starts. The game will start 24 hours after the last confirm is in. I will notify you when this occurs. You may

NOT

PM your fellow mafia once the game begins.

Win condition: The conservative mafia is alive and outnumbers or equals all others still in the game.

Please confirm by PM

.

You are a townie candidate from a minor political party. You are not allowed to communicate with any of the other players outside the thread.

Win Condition: You win with the Town when all evil is gone.

Please confirm by PM

.

I'm highly suspicious of experienced players not reading the roles in an open set-up, but that's for day 2.

I dislike dylan's newbie defense, although it gave me a chuckle given who he's challenged by. Vote-fishing I don't like either.

Sparks; well, Sparks is probably scum. But so is dylan. And as personally annoying, grating, and semi-incomprehensible as I find sparks, at the very least, he's sparked a lot of discussion.

[Carrotcake]

FWIW, I think they're both scum.

Agreed.

Seems so.

However, I pledge to contribute more often with more substantial opinions if I survive this challenge.

Giving us a reward for your survival? Thats nice. If you both are scum (Im leaning to that), if we allow sparks to survive we are basically guaranteed something to talk about. You on the other hand don't really talk much, and a pledge does not really help. Even on the posts after this one, you aren't really spilling info.

First, I want to explain my lurking. I have yet to complete a full game of mafia on this site (I'm on my first string of games). I have a lot to learn in terms of persuasive language tactics and how to make comments without sounding suspicious. I started my first mafia game ever as a Newbie a few days before joining this game. I made many, many, many mistakes early in that game and I'll probably be lynched because of them. Those vultures tore up every post I made and accused me repeatedly. THAT is why I wanted to fly under the radar for the first challenge in this game. Oops. Lurking was a mistake also.

What do you want us to feel? Pity? That does not count as much to help your lurking.

I believe Sparks is scum because of his hyperactive shouting throughout the game, disrespectful conduct, and using the ...

A fireman once saved a family from a burning house once, when the family thanked him he was a bit of a jerk.

I don't want to use my naivety as an excuse

Oh?

using the "easy way out" to nominate me (a Newbie).

But you just did.

but I feel like Sparks is taking advantage of it.

And you did it again.

The people who seem pro-town to me are DeanWinchester, Mr. Stoofer, Yosarian2, Stewie, SpinWizard, and mneme.

Yes, please explain. Without some sort of explanation this feels.. hmm.. I dont know... very tricky.




What did I learn from your posts? very little. Talk or die.

Im leaning towards saving sparks for now, but I plan to nominate him for the next debate.

Oh, and sparks, a clean reason for challenging is nice. As well as people you think are clean.

[mneme]

First, Rules FTW:

Roles

You are

the liberal mafia with AAA and CCC.

You may talk with your fellow mafia until the game starts. The game will start 24 hours after the last confirm is in. I will notify you when this occurs. You may

NOT

PM your fellow mafia once the game begins.

Win condition: The liberal mafia is alive and outnumbers or equals all others still in the game.

Please confirm by PM

.

...

I'm highly suspicious of experienced players not reading the roles in an open set-up, but that's for day 2.

It happens. Oddly enough, I don't think anyone remembered this (or pretended not to). I certainly, or I'd never have suggested that scum could talk during the day (not used to open setups; forgot this was one). As it happened, it was pretty serendipitous:

If anything, this confirms my feeling that Sparks is scum (as he apparently hadn't read this either, and didn't use it as the very good answer it would have been when people asked how he -knew- that the scum couldn't talk during the day). If he ducked that question and tried to turn it into a "joke", then clearly he had some other way of knowing this -- like his PM.

[mneme]

(sorry for the misquote there, btw -- I accidentally cut a close. Obviously, vandaimen said the "I'm highly suspicous" line and quoted pablito saying the rest.)

[Sparks]

FWIW, I think they're both scum. Sparks, dylan was a great choice, as someone who was acting about as scummy as you were (if in some very different ways).

wuldnt a better choice be challengin someone that was way more scummier than me ? if this was directed to someone else id think it was mafia trying to communicate during the day

Sparks, why did you initially talk about challenging me, then change your mind and challenge dylan instead?

i talked aobut challenging 4 people, you, stoofer, dylan, and danmonkey. stoofer i crossed out beacuse i would probably lose and i know im town so i dont want to die, and then i crossed out you becuz you were actually talking and i realized that if im feelin the same way about a perosn who talked a lot and a persn who barely talekd, then the person who barely talked is probably more liekly to be scum because theres less i could actually find fault in.

if you dont understnad that then lets say scumtells are a test twith a 50% chance of accuracy. thats low but lets say everytime you make a post, it has a 50% chance of catching someone whos scum. if someone does the test 10 times and gets 3 positivies versus someone who does it 5 and gets 3 positives, the 5 is muhc more likely to be scum.

and then danmonkey had an excuse for lurking, dylan didnt. altho i now think that danmonkey wouldve been a good chalenge as well with that quick tvot.

Sparks: I think it's fairly clear from your play over the weekend that you're not a complete newbie -- as you said, your first game -on this site-. So Dylan has a point that his scummy behavior must be taken in the light of his lack of experience.

ive played two complete games on another site. 1 was 8 player, 1 was 9 and like 5 times at a summer camp last year. the resaon i signed up for this game was becuz there werent all these crazy roles, the only ones i knew of were mafia, doctor, cop, townie, and pimp (pimp sleeps with some1 each night, has no affect)

Re my speculation that scum can talk during the day:I'm still not convinced they can't -- though the best evidence for same is Spark's "joke". Given that the scum don't have a kill, giving them day conferencing is an obvious way to design the game (though if Sparks turns out to be scum, it seems likely that they can't talk during the day, for the obvious reason). It would be a strong power -- not least in that better players among the scum could give advice to worse players. But the results might produce weird posting patterns, which might be noticeable.

can you plz think of how ridicolous your original assertion was???? if you were scum that culd talk during the day and your buddies were under suspicion and whinin in your pm box would you go and call them both town and be that obviuos? it wasnt a joke, it was pardoy.


btw if theres 1 thing i learned abut mafia on this site is that good spellin helps lol

[Mr Stoofer]

Since my vote is irrevocable, I won't lay it down just yet, but I can't see that I'm likely to do anything other than vote to keep dylan. I've made the point about lurkers (active or otherwise) and I'm going to nominate him first thing Day 2 unless there is a significant improvement between now and then.

ah. I thought he said challenge. He said nominate. My bad.

The I don't understand your post. You said:

Challenging a lurker first thing is sooo scummy it's untrue. You completely curtail nomination debate, yet you've got a good shot at winning just because he isn't likely to defend himself properly.

Isn't that what Sparks did?

Nope, unless you think 'with the deadline nearing' is the same as 'first thing.' This doesn't mean I don't find Sparks scummy btw. But his last handful of posts have been a lot better imho.

OK, now I understand! We were just talking at cross-purposes.

The Fonz makes a valid point. Anyone who makes a challenge straight off the bat - in the first two RL days of a day - should be eliminated. From now on,

I will always vote to save anyone challenged in the first two RL days of a day.

You seem to misunderstand our argument. The reason I want him gone is because he is not only annoying, but illogical, puts little time into reading my posts and making his, and distracted the town from going after other people (such as yourself, so I can see why you'd want to save him) by making a long non-argument against a plan that is not only helpful in gathering information, but also flexible if mistakes are found in it. All these things together - including the annoyance factor, as you mentioned - are not only unhelpful, but actually hurt the town's chances. Therefore, getting rid of him is a benefit to the town, regardless of his alignment (which I think is scum, so it doesn't matter that much anyways).

Couldn't agree more with this -- just quoting it because there's is no point me saying the same thing in different words.

As for the Scum role PMs, this just confirms what I had said earlier. Sparks lept down mneme's throat for suggesting that Scum might be able to talk at night. How did he know that they couldn't? If he had read the front post carefully I am sure he would have pointed to that, especially after I had said this:

I think he really gave himself away in post 55. mneme speculated on whether scum could talk during the day, but Sparks obviously knows they can't. I think he knows that from his role PM.

If Sparks had got the information from the front post, he would have said so. I believe more than ever that he is scum.

FWIW, I think they're both scum. Sparks, dylan was a great choice, as someone who was acting about as scummy as you were (if in some very different ways).

wuldnt a better choice be challengin someone that was way more scummier than me ? if this was directed to someone else id think it was mafia trying to communicate during the day

Lol! menme's point is that

no-one

is acting more scummy than you -- you couldn't have picked anyone more scummy.

[mneme]

You seem to misunderstand our argument. The reason I want him gone is because he is not only annoying, but illogical, puts little time into reading my posts and making his, and distracted the town from going after other people

Couldn't agree more with this -- just quoting it because there's is no point me saying the same thing in different words.

[/quote]

This is, in fact, the primary reason to want him gone -given- a high scum factor.

Annoyingly (except, you know, not) his play -has- been better since right before his challenge than it was over last week. If I were confident that Spark's play was going to continue at this level rather than the earlier one, I'd weigh his annoyance factor (but not his scumminess, since that's a separate issue) differently.

As for the Scum role PMs, this just confirms what I had said earlier. Sparks lept down mneme's throat for suggesting that Scum might be able to talk at night. How did he know that they couldn't? If he had read the front post carefully I am sure he would have pointed to that,

Day. And yes, exactly.

Sparks, dylan was a great choice, as someone who was acting about as scummy as you were (if in some very different ways).

wuldnt a better choice be challengin someone that was way more scummier than me ?

Lol! menme's point is that

no-one

is acting more scummy than you -- you couldn't have picked anyone more scummy.

Exactly so.

Sparks makes a good point here:

im feelin the same way about a perosn who talked a lot and a persn who barely talekd, then the person who barely talked is probably more liekly to be scum because theres less i could actually find fault in.

This is the anti-lurker philosophy in a badly typed essence. (Yes, Sparks, it really would help if you'd stick to standard English spelling and punctuation. This is a written game, so your writing quality matters significantly)

The roles you mentioned are most of the basic ones -- mafia, doc, cop, townie, and role-blocker (your "pimp" sounds like a role-blocker prostitute (a common chrome for that role) which someone renamed without changing the flavor). This is a -much- weirder game than most of those on scum; even the weird theme games usually have those roles (plus a few more, like mason or godfather) plus a funky theme, whereas this game is only nominally Mafia, if that.

I'm quite aware that my suggestion was "out there" (so was the chorus of "no, black is white, and using a voting structure makes the scum easier to hide!"); it was partially funny, and partially a trap. You got caught, much more than I'd have expected; if you think your "modkill request" was a joke, you've clearly mixed up the levels here.

Ah -- I now understand the Fonz/Stoofer tiff on page 6. Took a re-read. (Stoofer talked about nominating Sparks straight-off on day 2, and Fonz though he said "challenge" and justly objected).

It's worth noting that sometimes when people vote (or nominate) without giving reasons, they're doing so because the reasons are obvious. While persuasion and reasons are useful, they're not the be-all and end all of mafia -- really.

Sparks does seem like he had a brain transplant starting with post 116. Before that, he was still doing stuff like quoting Stoofer's day 1 post as if that had even been on the table since page 1.5 or 2, claiming that he was being nomed on semantics (no, you were nomed for numerous reasons, wheras you personally insulted quite a number of people, including YT, for a disagreement that was apparently semantic misunderstanding on your part), claiming people who were attacked were automatically town, and . Sparks, fwiw, listed the four people he was considering in post 97.

Sparks, did proofreading meant you went so far as to put a bit more care into your posts in general? It does seem like they've taken a significant upturn in quality -- and not just in terms of spelliing, typing, and punctuation (which is still bad -- but with a much better structural style and fewer random insults, largely painless).

[SpinWizard]

I FEEL THAT SPARKS IS SCUM AND HE IS USEING DILLAN AS A SCAPEGOAT.

[SpinWizard]

sorry for the capitals

[Sparks]

i asserted 3 things in that opst

-meme was scum
-meme was talkin during the day
-scum couldnt talk durin the day

i liek how you guys are asuming one of them showed i had outside knowledge but the other two were probably false. how is that logical at all?


spinwazard: how ami blamin dylan for my plays at all? your assertion makes no sense
i think spiwnazard is the last one if there isa danmonkey-dylan scum group.
also no contributions
dylan also didnt focus on him


dylan: if that vote was random, y did you chose to wait to random vote utnil ur 2nd post and not the 1st?

[mneme]

-meme was scum
-meme was talkin during the day
-scum couldnt talk durin the day

i liek how you guys are asuming one of them showed i had outside knowledge but the other two were probably false. how is that logical at all?

It's very logical. You never made an argument that I was scum or was talking during the day (wheras in fact, I made a weak argument that the various people making the same weak arguments theoretically could be -- or that you and the people you were defending for no reason shown in the thread could be -- but an argument); you just stated it as an assertion, and in fact went so far as to make a metagame mod request which made the apparent -assumption- that scum could not talk during the day.

In fact, they can't (as Van Damien pointed out). But rather than point to the only way town could have known this (by reading the scum descriptions in the opening post), when challenged you completely ignored the issue -- which argues that you knew this the other way one could -- because it's in your PM.

That said -- to my knowledge, Sparks has never been caught lying.

Dylan has. His "it was random" response is obviously a shameless lie, given context, and I'm inclined to say that absent any proven lies on Sparks' part, mean he should get my vote on principle (LAL, specifically).

dylan: if that vote was random, y did you chose to wait to random vote utnil ur 2nd post and not the 1st?

Answer: clearly, it wasn't. He lied.

Why, heaven knows; it's a really bad lie.

[Mr Stoofer]

I asserted 3 things in that post

-meme was scum
-meme was talking during the day
-scum couldn't talk during the day

How did you know that Scum couldn't talk during the day?

And if the answer is: "because I read it in the front post", then why didn't you point that out in response to posts 57, 61, 81 or 135?

[Yosarian2]

Yeah. I'm really happy with this challange so far, as I think they're probably both scum.

I'm stongly considering voting to keep Sparks around, if Dyllan dosn't start explaining some of his actions and his thoughts better. They've both made huge scumtells, in any case.

Again, Dyllan, you made a list of people who looked pro-town to you. Can you explain any of that?

[Mr Stoofer]

I think that Sparks' scum tell is slightly stronger than dylan's. But more importantly, of the two of them, I really want Sparks dead ASAP for his general obnoxiousness.

I'll be voting to "save dylan" (actually I'll be voting to kill Sparks) tomorrow (Wednesday) in the absence of something spectacular. I'll then be nominating dylan first thing Day 2.

[VanDamien]

The Fonz makes a valid point. Anyone who makes a challenge straight off the bat - in the first two RL days of a day - should be eliminated. From now on, I will always vote to save anyone challenged in the first two RL days of a day.

I'll then be nominating dylan first thing Day 2.

Contradict yourself much?

Beyond that, still waiting to hear more from Dylan - he's been posed several questions, and I'd like to hear the answers.

[The Fonz]

The Fonz makes a valid point. Anyone who makes a challenge straight off the bat - in the first two RL days of a day - should be eliminated. From now on, I will always vote to save anyone challenged in the first two RL days of a day.

I'll then be nominating dylan first thing Day 2.

Contradict yourself much?

Beyond that, still waiting to hear more from Dylan - he's been posed several questions, and I'd like to hear the answers.

No, we've been over that misunderstanding- he means he will start pushing for Dylan to be forced into a challenge immediately, not that he will personally challenge Dylan.

[DeanWinchester]

Dylan's made a really lame lie. And hasn't ansewered it yet. This has me heavily favoring a sparks save instead of a dylan save.

Didn't sparks challenge before a majority wanted sparks to?

Speaking of reading the ser up, if sparks survives the day, we have to remember that sparks CAN NOT challenge again till everyone else has challenged once.

[Yosarian2]

Wrong, Dean. If sparks survives, he can't challange tommorow, but he can challange the next day. Sparks just can't challange a THIRD time until everyon'e challanged once.

[dylan41985]

It wasn't a lie. It was a random vote.

[mneme]

dylan: a random vote that just happened to follow two other votes for the same person and five straight posts about that person. Sure, it was. By "random' do you mean you rolled a d11 and picked "anyone who wasn't you," or what?

The sequence, for those too lazy to look:

42: Dean makes a long nonsense post and makes himself look very scummish by denying the scum are scum.
43: Fonz nominates Deanwinchester
44: Stoofer nominates Dean
45: Yosarian rebuts Dean's nonsense in a longish post.
46: Stoofer weakens his position on Dean to "clueless" from "scummish" (but doesn't unnom).
47: dylan votes Deanwinchester