Mini 456: Ultimatum Mafia - Game Over!

[mneme]

what you're saying doesnt make complete sense. at least, not in terms of yesterday, during which discussion, and information only picked up DURING the debate. It seems like the same has happened here, so i dont see what you are complaining about...

Uh, no. We got most of our info yesterday (including that which gave us our last liberal today, as VD realized that with the interest he'd picked up yesterday he wasn't going to survive to the endgame) way, way before the debate (certainly, on my list, he was the #2 suspect of being a liberal, behind only Dean).

We also picked up Sparks then, as well as his ammunition on Dylan.

This isn't even getting into the connection and lack-of-connection info that can't really be judged until we have a few more deaths and can make better scum/!scum judgements.

Did you even -read- yesterday?

[Battle Mage]

yes i read yesterday. hence i was able to form my opinions. dont patronise me when your own comments are so dubious...

[mneme]

Just a bit of ad homeniem, BM? Try responding to my comments rather than just attacking me.

Or, you know, back up anything you've said. Or are you afraid of giving away your scumbuddies by saying too much?

[Battle Mage]

lol you can talk about Ad Hominem cant you.

how about YOU give me something worthwhile to respond to. either that, or stop defending your invisible scumbuddy...

[The Fonz]

Just a bit of ad homeniem, BM? Try responding to my comments rather than just attacking me.

Or, you know, back up anything you've said. Or are you afraid of giving away your scumbuddies by saying too much?

You accused him of not reading. He said you were patronising. I can't see how the former is any more Adhom than the latter.

[The Fonz]

EBWODP: Latter than the former.

[VanDamien]

So I've been challenged. Should I defend myself now? Tell you all how I am not scum?

Yeah, right.

To my claim being a conservative gambit: that is pretty ridiculous. With the win conditions as they are, the remaining conservatives have every reason to try and protect all three of their members. I have guaranteed my eventual lynch, whether it ends up being oday or over the next couple of days.

If nothing else, Sparks obviously fingered me as one of his scumbuddies, and I very obviously attempted to distance from him. Like I said before, Carrot was our side's best chance of winning, and he was modkilled. I'm not proud of my play in this game day one, to say the least. But lessons learned.

BM's move was insanely anti-town. Even if I had ended up today's lynch regardless, much more could have been done to find the cons, with a town nomination and my challenging.

My gut tells me that the cons are Fonz, dylan, BM at this point.

[mneme]

You accused him of not reading. He said you were patronising. I can't see how the former is any more Adhom than the latter.

Of course I was patronizing him. He made an indefensible statement. (actually, several, but I had in mind specifically, (like "all the interesting stuff happened in this game after the challenge" -- which was more or less what BM said in 299, ie "not in terms of yesterday, during which discussion, and information only picked up DURING the debate.")).

Actually, arguably, I wasn't patronizing him; I was making the most charitable explanation ("you didn't read it" rather than "you're stupid" or "you're lying scum and not paying much attention") for the apparent facts.

The correct response to "did you -read- the thing you're commenting on" isn't to insult the person saying it; it's to, you know, prove it, backing up what you said by quoting the bits of what you're commenting on to support your position. We are still playing mafia (or close enough), right?

[Yosarian2]

While BM's move was anti-town, I'm not really sure you can consider it a scum-tell, as it would be a bad move for town or for scum I think.

If someone can actually make a reasonable case for why BM is scum, I might consider voting to save VanDamien. Just saying "we should execute BM as a policy lynch" or "BM is scum because he challanaged me" isn't going to do it.

[The Fonz]

You accused him of not reading. He said you were patronising. I can't see how the former is any more Adhom than the latter.

Of course I was patronizing him. He made an indefensible statement.

So if you admit you were patronising him, why is him pointing this out an Ad Hom attack?

@BM- Answer my questions, please.

[Stewie]

dont patronise me when your own comments are so dubious...

How so?

[DeanWinchester]

Don't have time to fully read the thread right now, will tonight probably.

My initial reaction is that we should also lynch BM. Going after VD today is pointless and not beneficial to the town.

[dylan41985]

2. You may not have individually expressed a wish to lynch VD, but some of you made the valid point that he could be Conservative-scum. If he is, not only would today be a roaring success mathematically, but it would also give us strong indications of other Conservatives.

BM

I'm trying to picture the possibility of VD being conservative after he said he was liberal. That would mean that there is one other person sitting here who actually is liberal but can't say anything. It's hard to fathom.

[dylan41985]

i'm leaning towards saving Van Damien so he can help the town short-term (next couple of rounds).

BUT I think we all should realize that his "pro-town" offer is also in his best self-interest...he gets to stay here and control the game while we fight with each other. There may come a point where he betrays us.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'd prefer you exposed them now, actually, before we see BM's alignment.

If you don't mind...

I do mind, mind you. I'm not going to distract the town when we are under deadline. I will challenge you tomorrow, and then I'll kill you.

It will certainly discourage BM from doing the same thing this game.

Is this a joke ? He's not going to be in the game if we do that, genius.

[quote ="Albert B. Rampage"]
And he's usually town -_-

No more than anyone else...[/quote]

Um, that was a joke, indicated by the -_- and the "in all seriousness" in the next sentence.

Tori=conservative.

I meant independent political party. Given the context, I am glad even you "got" it.

Anyway,

vote: BM

[Mr Stoofer]

I get more and more furious with Battle Mage each time I look at this thread. I don't think I can recall ever having been more p***ed off with a player in a game of Mafia.

I'm pretty sure that I am going to end up voting to save Van Damien, for two reasons.

First

: The nomination system is absolutely essential for maintaining discipline. If all the individual Townies simply act unilaterally as BM did,

then the Town will lose

. I am absolutely sure of that. As I have already said, and everyone (except Sparks-scum) agreed:

This game involves players unilaterally attacking others -- without the necessity of getting a majority of people to agree with you. Previous games of this sort (Bad Idea Mafia I & II; M.A.D. Mafia) have all gone the same way: the Townies kill off each other and the Scum coast to victory. Townies have less to lose and so are more reckless; the Scum are more cautious in a such a game, so that sit back, keep their heads down, and the Townies ignore them. We have to avoid doing that. DO NOT CHALLENGE RECKLESSLY.

This point is reinforced by the fact that there was a growing consensus in favour of keeping VanDamien alive for a little bit longer. At the time of the challenge Van Damien had

0

primary nominations (as against 4 for dylan) and only 1 secondary nomination.

It's quite clear that if BM is Town and he stays alive he is a loose cannon who is going to screw this game for the Town.

Secondly

: I don't think we can assume that BM is Town anyway. Quite the reverse. There are plenty of grounds for thinking that his challenge was a Scum gambit:

• Battle Mage's play screws up the nomination system which has so far been spectacularly successful at catching Scum. And if we don't lynch him for it, it threatens to do long term damage to the system as other players, Scum and Townie, see that they can get away with unilateral action.
  
• I don't think we should or can ignore that fact that Battle Mage challenged claim Scum. I have no doubt that he thought he would have no difficulty winning the vote in the circumstances. I could easily imagine that Battle Mage's tiny brain might think that he could make himself look pro-Town by killing a Scum bag.
  
• All the reasons why the Town wants to keep VanDamien alive for now are reasons why the Conservative Scum want him dead (assuming he is Liberal).

[Battle Mage]

Don't have time to fully read the thread right now, will tonight probably.

My initial reaction is that we should also lynch BM. Going after VD today is pointless and not beneficial to the town.

lol gotta love that. lynching a townie is bound to help the town more than lynching a scumbag.
what the hell was i thinking...

@Stoof-you can disagree with my actions all you want. The fact that nobody else thought VD was the play, doesnt mean that he wasn't. Much as Mafia is a team game, there are great benefits to thinking for yourself. I agree that it might have been better to let VD live, IF we could guarantee hitting a Conservative today. And we just cant do that.
So, rather than following a hair-brained scheme which i didnt agree with, i decided to do what in my mind, is the best option. Kill the confirmed scum first. You might consider my action detrimental to the town, but i think you'll be singing a different tune if he comes up Conservative.
And to be honest, if you are considering killing me today, you really have no grounds to criticise me for action detrimental to the town.

Ever heard the saying 'two wrongs don't make a right'.
think about it.

[Battle Mage]

I'm with Stewie on this one.

Whilst I do think Battle Mage's actions were to the town's detriment, I still kinda get the feeling that it may well just have been a case of 'Manny being Manny' with him. I think the correct pro-town course of action here, at the very least, is to interrogate BM as thoroughly as possible, so that we can make the most informed guess about whether or not he is conservative or not.

@ Stoofer: At mimimum, the fact that BM's challenge has made a vote-off

against a guaranteed scum

far from a foregone conclusion should, to my mind, be sufficient deterrent to anyone pulling the same in future. Nonetheless, the warning is out there: I think you can guess what I'll do if anyone tries it.

So to begin with:

However, comments by Yos and The Fonz have confirmed my decision. On the premise that VD is guaranteed scum, and potential Conservative-Scum, im willing to:

Challenge: Van Damien

I think it's rather disengenuous to claim that the fact that I noted there is a small chance of him being con scum, in the middle of a discourse which was solidly in favour of keeping VD alive at least for today, influenced you to challenge him today.

On the other hand, you can kill me, Vanilla Town. Then you will not only have 1 less shot at killing the Conservatives, you will also still have Van Damien to worry about. If you are town and make this choice, we DESERVE to lose.

I don't like this either. It's kinda like a pre-emptive adhom attack on anyone who might vote against you, trying to make out like the decision is obvious. It isn't.

As it is, Battlemage ended the day after we'd gotten merely three datum:
1. VD is scum. (probably liberal, but concievably con running a gambit)
2. mneme, yos, stoofer, and stewie are probably not scum if dylan are. Probably.
3. mneme is probably not scum if BM or dean are. Probably.

Compare this to the wealth of info we got on day 1, and we see how horrible BM's action was.

This troubles me. Two of the three things we apparently learned today are that you are probably not scum if three different people are. I get the impression that you are not the kind of player who generally likes to analyse potential connections involving himself.

are these the questions you were referring to Fonzie?
it might help if you explain the meaning of 'Disengenuous' and 'Manny being Manny'.

[The Fonz]

The 'Manny being Manny' bit, wasn't a question. Basically, it's a baseball reference- I'm saying there's a distinct possibility that you acted in such a manner not because you're scum, but

because you're Battle Mage

. Hence, I don't think it's a good idea to jump to the conclusion we should lynch you before applying a thorough grilling to best ascertain for ourselves if this is the case or not. (Actually, BM, could you refer me to a completed game of yours as scum, for reference?)

Disengenuous- I'm suggesting that you're not being entirely fair or honest in your suggestion that what I wrote contributed in large part to your decision, as to do that you'd have to cherry pick the one reservation I have, and detach it from the broader sweep of what I was actually saying.

The other question was the 'pre-emptive adhom' bit.

[Mr Stoofer]

"Disengenuous" is a concept that your little mind will never be able to cope with.

"Manny being Manny" is a line from Black Books. It just means that you are always stupid and always do stupid things.

I am so annoyed with you I could cry.

@Stoof-you can disagree with my actions all you want. The fact that nobody else thought VD was the play, doesnt mean that he wasn't. Much as Mafia is a team game, there are great benefits to thinking for yourself. I agree that it might have been better to let VD live, IF we could guarantee hitting a Conservative today. And we just cant do that.
So, rather than following a hair-brained scheme which i didnt agree with, i decided to do what in my mind, is the best option. Kill the confirmed scum first. You might consider my action detrimental to the town, but i think you'll be singing a different tune if he comes up Conservative.
And to be honest, if you are considering killing me today, you really have no grounds to criticise me for action detrimental to the town.

Ever heard the saying 'two wrongs don't make a right'.
think about it.

I have thought about it. And I concluded that you are an idiot. Especially after you agreed that it might have been better to let VD live. Lots of people explained whu "Kill the confirmed scum first" was

NOT

the best play. But you went ahead anyway. That makes you either Scum or a Townie who so stupid that you are more dangerous to the Town than the scum.

This is not a case of two wrongs don't make a right. Regardless of VanDamien's alignment, it was very very very very very very very very wrong of you to challenge him. It was wrong because unilateral action hurts the Town. And it was wrong because the consensus was that VD was not today's play. So the right thing to do is punish you for it to make sure that no-one else does the same thing.

In addition to the two reasons given by me in post 315 above:

Thirdly

: Battle Mage is a complete idiot, who is bound to distract and hurt the Town regardless of his alignment, and the sooner he is dead the better. Further, as long as he is in the game I can't concentrate due to fury.

[Battle Mage]

yeh sure. check out Yos's MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) Mafia. Theres another Newbie Game which i replaced into as scum, which i can refer you to aswell.

as for the disengenuous thing, i disagree. I mean, its true that you didnt exactly say that you thought VD should be lynched today, but it genuinely was significantly due to your post that i challenged him. I read it, and suddenly realised the logic of what you were saying, and the stupidity of keeping him alive for longer.

ill look up the other question and respond to it.

BM

The 'Manny being Manny' bit, wasn't a question. Basically, it's a baseball reference- I'm saying there's a distinct possibility that you acted in such a manner not because you're scum, but

because you're Battle Mage

. Hence, I don't think it's a good idea to jump to the conclusion we should lynch you before applying a thorough grilling to best ascertain for ourselves if this is the case or not. (Actually, BM, could you refer me to a completed game of yours as scum, for reference?)

Disengenuous- I'm suggesting that you're not being entirely fair or honest in your suggestion that what I wrote contributed in large part to your decision, as to do that you'd have to cherry pick the one reservation I have, and detach it from the broader sweep of what I was actually saying.

The other question was the 'pre-emptive adhom' bit.

[Mr Stoofer]

As presently advised I want the following people dead in the following order:

1. Battle Mage
   - for the 3 reasons given above.
   
2. dylan
   - probably scum; definitely not Liberal.
   
3. VanDamien
   - definitely Scum, not sure of his alignment. Once we have killed the above, it will probably be time for him to die.

[Battle Mage]

ah by pre-emptive adhom, you mean me trying to use logic to defend myself. You wont be surprised when i tell you that i rarely have opportunity to defend myself using an argument as strong as here, but truly i feel that the choice SHOULD be obvious for townies. Even if you think i COULD, or even PROBABLY AM scum, you can always kill me tomorrow. However, the only reason you could have for lynching me is if you were MORE CERTAIN of me being scum than VD. If that is the case, fair enough, but in some cases people are voting for me just because.
you yourself suggested that perhaps VD is a Conservative. actually, that makes alot more sense than him being liberal. so why is there such opposition to killing him?
BM

[The Fonz]

yeh sure. check out Yos's MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) Mafia. Theres another Newbie Game which i replaced into as scum, which i can refer you to aswell.

I was

in

MAD Mafia. What's the newbie one?

as for the disengenuous thing, i disagree. I mean, its true that you didnt exactly say that you thought VD should be lynched today, but it genuinely was significantly due to your post that i challenged him. I read it, and suddenly realised the logic of what you were saying, and the stupidity of keeping him alive for longer.

No, I didn't

exactly

say I thought VD should be lynched today. In fact I categorically stated that I thought he shouldn't.

[Mr Stoofer]

Also, I am suspicious of Yosarian2 for not supporting Battle Mage's death. I would have thought that he would be as keen as anyone to deter unilateral action.