Mini 456: Ultimatum Mafia - Game Over!

[Mr Stoofer]

I'd like mneme (or some other volunteer) to set out the case against dylan in full, please.

[Mr Stoofer]

To clarify, are there any points against dylan other than:

• He has consistently lurked.
  
• He piled a third vote onto DeanWinchester (as a bandwagon was groing on him) then later claimed that this was merely random.

[The Fonz]

He's generally avoided giving opinions where possible and just tried to go with the crowd.

i also agree

This was his first contribution to the game.

P.S. I am here, but want to be very cautious before accusing others at this point in the game.

Trying to avoid taking a position.

Pledged to contribute more if he survived the challenge, played the 'newbie card,' posted a list of six different people he thought were pro-town, then neglected to explain the reasoning behind this list despite being repeatedly requested to.

Then, this entire post:

My initial nomination and mistakes (regardless of if you think I'm lying or not) are irrelevant at this point because I am the person challenged by Sparks.

But ask yourself this: Was it really fair for Sparks to challenge me this early? What have I done to him? Why was he so eager to challenge me? Isn't that action more suspicious that my behavior?

My theory is that Sparks is scum and anyone voting to save him is

possibly

Spark's secret scum buddy.

Fonz, I really don't know how else to convince you but to say that later in the game you won't regret keeping me here. I can promise you that.

Plus, I'm a vulnerable target for future rounds.

Is just one scumtell after another. Trying to say that his pre-challenge behaviour is irrelevant to whether or not he should be lynched. Deflection. This, to me, is a virtual admission that it was incredibly scummy.

Then tries to suggest that the person who just about everyone wanted to challenge, challenged him, was in itself scummy.

Then tries to suggest that anyone voting for Sparks was Sparks' scumbuddy. Despite the fact that two of those voting for Sparks were on his 'probably town' list from earlier.

Finishes by promising that I personally won't regret keeping him around. Since if he's a townie, he can't know my alignment, that would be an extraordinarily stupid thing to say. Makes more sense as scum, flailing to try to stay alive.

Then, day two, he nominates VanDamien immediately after the scum claim, then does a complete turnaround when I present a case for keeping VD alive.

Once the challenge happens, he posts these:

ooh yikes. It doesn't make sense to me that Battle Mage would put himself on the chopping block if he was a conservative after many of us agreed to keep Van Damien around.

If Battle Mage is a conservative, I don't think he would put himself out there to potentially be voted out if he knows that we want to get rid of one of the conservatives before the last liberal. It's too risky.

We believe VD is a liberal.
We think it may be best for the town to keep him around for awhile.
Why would a conservative go up against VD knowing that we'll probably vote to save VD?

Defending Battle Mage. Three posts and little content later, he hammers him.

That's basically the case against Dylan in a nutshell. However, I won't nom him yet, as I get a bad vibe off Dean as well, and want to re-read him as well before i do.

[Mr Stoofer]

Hmm... The reason that I asked was that I did a re-read of dylan's posts in isolation and started to think "is he really being scummy, or just a Newbie?"

You've certainly got some good points there. It's just that I'm suffering from Battle Mage-effect: what do you do when even the most blatant Scum tells are sometimes perpetrated by poor pro-Town players?

For example, I normally think this sort of thing is particularly telling:

Fonz, I really don't know how else to convince you but to say that later in the game you won't regret keeping me here. I can promise you that.

Finishes by promising that I personally won't regret keeping him around. Since if he's a townie, he can't know my alignment, that would be an extraordinarily stupid thing to say. Makes more sense as scum, flailing to try to stay alive.

But then you and I made exactly the same point against Battle Mage...

Having said that, I still think I'm going to

nominate: dylan

for the lie about his vote on DeanWinchester. It's the combination of piling onto a bandwagon and then trying to disassociate from it that I don't like.

[Yosarian2]

To clarify, are there any points against dylan other than:

• He has consistently lurked.
  
• He piled a third vote onto DeanWinchester (as a bandwagon was groing on him) then later claimed that this was merely random.

Well, I really don't like the way he slamed the 4th vote down yesterday to hammer Battle Mage when we still had pleanty of time left to make up the decision. It really feels to me like he cut discussion short by doing that.

[The Fonz]

I think the solution to that is to give newbish players every opportunity possible to demonstrate a desire to help the town. To that end, I would like to see Dylan present a reasonably thought-out explanation of who he thinks might comprise the Con scum at this point.

My re-read of Dean makes me much happier about him, actually- most of the things i was uncomfortable about, in retrospect, were to do with his behaviour relating to Sparks.

Re: VanDamien, if we believe that him being a gambitting con is a real possibility, we have to lynch him tomorrow at the latest, unless we hit con scum today (in which case, we can probably afford to kill him tomorrow anyway). We shouldn't let him live beyond tomorrow unless we're reasonably sure he's telling the truth about being Liberal.

I'd also like the analysis Albert promised.

[Yosarian2]

The Fonz: Well, if we don't lynch a conservative today, then we really want to do so tommorow, so we should only lynch Van Damien tommorow if we think he's more likely to be a conservative then any other suspect. (shrug) Which is possible; he might very well be a gambiting conservative, and the risk is lower as it's certanly better to kill him then a pro-town person in any case. But still, our goal has to be to kill a conservitve today and probably tommorow as well, we don't want to get distracted from that.

[Mr Stoofer]

I agree with Yosarian2 on the VanDamien issue.

Anyone wanting to kill someone other than dylan today had better set out a convincing case, for me at least...

[dylan41985]

i also agree

This was before I really got into the game.

P.S. I am here, but want to be very cautious before accusing others at this point in the game.

This statement is true. I told you all I go tin trouble for accusing others early in another game.

Then, this entire post:

My initial nomination and mistakes (regardless of if you think I'm lying or not) are irrelevant at this point because I am the person challenged by Sparks.

But ask yourself this: Was it really fair for Sparks to challenge me this early? What have I done to him? Why was he so eager to challenge me? Isn't that action more suspicious that my behavior?

My theory is that Sparks is scum and anyone voting to save him is

possibly

Spark's secret scum buddy.

Fonz, I really don't know how else to convince you but to say that later in the game you won't regret keeping me here. I can promise you that.

Plus, I'm a vulnerable target for future rounds.

One scumtell after another? No. This was just me struggling to defend myself.

My promise to the Fonz that he won't regret keeping me here shouldn't be overanalyzed in regards to the fact that there are no other roles. I knew that. I was just trying to appeal to his competitive side. I think it's fair to say both mafia and townies would do that...and mafia might even avoid it because it sounds fishy.

I unnominated Van Damien after Fonz presented the strategy that it would help us to keep him here. I said I think the Fonz is town, so why wouldn't I listen to his plan?

Fonz, you say that I first defend Battle Mage and then lynch him. What's wrong with that? What is scummy about that? I ultimately made a bad decision, but so did a lot of people - and I was the final vote that counted.

[The Fonz]

i also agree

This was before I really got into the game.

Well, duh, it was your first post. But showing up and just blindly agreeing with someone else isn't a good sign.

P.S. I am here, but want to be very cautious before accusing others at this point in the game.

This statement is true. I told you all I go tin trouble for accusing others early in another game.

Well, I haven't seen that game, but what I will say, is that questioning other people is pretty much the only way anyone gets any information on anyone, and information is what the town needs. Acting like you think your own personal survival is more important than finding scum is scummy.

One scumtell after another? No. This was just me struggling to defend myself.

My promise to the Fonz that he won't regret keeping me here shouldn't be overanalyzed in regards to the fact that there are no other roles. I knew that. I was just trying to appeal to his competitive side. I think it's fair to say both mafia and townies would do that...and mafia might even avoid it because it sounds fishy.

But if you're supposedly town, appealing to my competitive side, surely that only works if

I'm

town? And you shouldn't know that.

Fonz, you say that I first defend Battle Mage and then lynch him. What's wrong with that? What is scummy about that? I ultimately made a bad decision, but so did a lot of people - and I was the final vote that counted.

It's not that you defended Battle Mage then voted him. I did that. It's the speed of the turnaround combined with the lack of reasoning presented. Between the third of those quotes I posted above and your hammer, you did not mention Battle Mage once.

[The Fonz]

EBWODP: And how about those suspicions? You said Battle Mage, Albert (then SpinWizard) and possibly Dean yesterday. Who do you think is scummy as of now?

[Albert B. Rampage]

And yes, what Stewie said. There's no way to "confuse the town" at this point, because the mechanical result is already pre-deterimined.

Albert, the only reason to delay saying your peace at this point is so you can change it to fit the facts, which doesn't really help your case.

Fit what facts ?

I declared that I found you scummy, and I use that declaration as basis to go against whatever you want to do in the future. I feel no need to outline the voluminous case against you until your time comes.

(that, and national festivities holding me up this weekend)

[The Fonz]

I don't understand this. If there's a decent case against mneme, what kind of harm could it possibly do the town to hear it?

[dylan41985]

Albert, I don't think mneme is scum at the moment, but do you want to convince me?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I want to gather momentum. I don't think its possible to change my case to "fit the facts", and actually don't understand much of this comment at all.

[Mr Stoofer]

dylan, if I were you I'd concentrate on providing reasons and content yourself, not badgering other people to do it.

[And yes Albert, I'd like to hear this "voluminous case" too.]

[Albert B. Rampage]

nominate: mneme!

[DeanWinchester]

@Albert: What?

Any chance of you explaining your list's Dylan?

[Stewie]

I want to gather momentum. I don't think its possible to change my case to "fit the facts", and actually don't understand much of this comment at all.

If you are scum and you had an argument against mneme which assumed BM was the other side's scum, then when you find out that he's not scum you can change your argument to fit the new information. This assumes that VD is lying, but it can also work if you are a townie, since you could also alter your logic to fit whether BM was scum or not, which of course you wouldn't be doing on purpose, but it hurts the town nontheless. Plus, there was no reason not to make your argument (there still isn't) so I can't see why you are still stalling.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Don't worry it has nothing to do with BM. Also, I'm writing it now. And I'm intoxicated because this weekend is the national celebration. But I'm writing it. Now.

[Albert B. Rampage]

The biggest scumtell I got on mneme is this post:

Sparks: your last post had some actual content and went halfway toward making sense. congrats. Please stop acting offensive, using homosexual as an insult, etc -- there's no purpose to it and it ticks people off.

If you want to challenge me, come get some. I won't have to read to your drivel for the rest of the game, so even if you beat the odds, it's all good.
/quote]

The timing of this post is extremely scummy. He is taunting sparks to challenge him while sparks is already on the chopping block. Like he himself said(I lost the quote), mafia will try to keep their head low and avoid attention. This fits exactly his reason to try to make sparks challenge him.

Come to think of it, Dean's big scumtell is still around (ie, "no, we must not call the scum scum -- we must call them a 'group of three'" , and if dylan checks out as a tory, there's a case to be made that the stuff that lead to dylan's lying was him busing Dean and then getting caught at it.

unnom: BM
nom: Dean

The reason he gives is really weak imo, and he just seems to be bandwagonning. In fact, mneme is consistently always attacking the most popular lynch of the day: sparks(this one was so easy its ridiculous), dylan, BM, DeanWinchester. He always goes against the weakest players, its unbelievable. Trying to convince the town with the "see I act like you so I'm town like you" trick. He keeps blending in like this, over and over again.

I also hate the way mneme is buddying up with Yosarian(he agrees WAY too much with Yos, constantly saying "agreed", "Yos' analysis is a good one", "indeed", etc.), Stoofer(since the very beginning of the game) and stewie as in here:

1. VD is scum. (probably liberal, but concievably con running a gambit)
2. mneme, yos, stoofer, and stewie are probably not scum if dylan are. Probably.
3. mneme is probably not scum if BM or dean are. Probably.

This post poses a big wtf in my head.

And he keeps derailing conversation to discussions about Ad Hominem and
his "nomination" system which doesn't amount to any content that can help us busting his buddies, while appearing townish enough because of his lengthly posts.

This is why I flag mneme as a conservative party politician.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Mod: can you add a [ to my /quote] ?

I also have a case on Fonz, but I won't be posting it right now.

[dylan41985]

Hey everyone - I want you all to know that I'm going to be out of town next week, so I won't be posting very much, if at all.

Thus, if I'm challenged, my past posts will have to speak for themselves (because they're all so convincing and wonderful). I won't be able to speak in my defense. I hope you will somehow, someway come to the conclusion that I'm a townie by analyzing my posts.

I might have a little internet access, but I don't know yet.

Goodbye for now

[VanDamien]

This is a strange post for me to write.

First, dylan's vacation notice smacks of a "don't lynch me while I'm gone" appeal to emotion, when it looks like he's going to be challenged today. With the case as presented, as well as his refusal to answer the Fonz's question - he seems highly likely to be a Con.

That said, and here's the strange part, I'm going to be out of town from Sunday through Thursday. I hereby proxy my challenging power to the consensus of the town. That is, if a majority nominate one person to be challenged, and that I should do it, consider me to have issued the challenge.

[DeanWinchester]

MOD: Did VD proxy a CHALLENGE to go to someone who has four noms or more ?

I think we need to revisit having VD not vote to save someone. This will ensure his death with out wasting our lynch.

Alberts(DanMonkeys) actions seem to be an attempt to distract from Dylans scumness. He has no reason to go after Mneme. I still think the correct play is to go after Dylan.