Miztef wrote:
Vollkan has also been questioning me about it, but in a more overall picture way, and isn't as rash as Deathsauce seems to be. I am somewhat confused as to why vollkan has not voted for me yet though, since his evidence against me seems to have mounted up quite heavily. My guess is he is waiting for input from the inactives/replacements.
You're partly right in that I feel a lack of players creates too much uncertainty in this situation. The other reason I have not voted for you was given by Para in his post:
Paradoxombie wrote: You assume he is scum pretending to be town and made a slip and appeared scummy for a second, but the obvious alternative that he IS town and made the same slip. There's no reason he's anymore likely to make such a slip if he's scum than if he's town, I don't see why you are so willing to pick one over the other. Maybe it's just an easier alternative for me to see since I think the slip in the first place wasn't really necessarily a slip.
I know for the past few of my posts I have been arguing that a revelation would be the best thing for a scum to do, but still I meant that with the overriding likely possibility being that you made a "protown blunder" as I called it earlier. I don't see your unvote as "scummy", it is just something which could potentially be scummy, which you can pretty much say about anything so I don't quite see why people have been so quick to pounce on you for it.
Now, to the DS v Para feud which has erupted all of a sudden:
Earlier on I asked DS why he thought it was more likely that Miz was scum than town. His response:
DeathSauce wrote: vollkan, I can't honestly tell you which one is more likely. The very fact that Miztef revealed the trap makes the whole thing very WIFOM-y.
The "WIFOM-y" refers to the idea I floated about a scum Miz possibly revealing since it was the smartest thing to do. Odd, however, that I raised that idea well after DS had raised the bulk of his attack. Here we have DS admitting he does not know which is more likely and admitting that the only possible evidence of scumminess (the reveal thing) is WIFOM-y at best.
There have been at least three major inconsistencies in Miztef's posts since the "trap" fiasco. Read my response to vollkan in post 654, that should help to explain my suspicion of Miztef. Read all my posts since the "trap". You are completely misrepresenting the breadth of my suspicion.
That was said in response to Para arguing there is a lack of evidence for Miz being scum.
1) The first contradiction is that Miz said you were "justifiably angry" and that "your response rubbed him the wrong way" (or to that effect). I don't think this is a "major inconsistency" in the sense of proving scumminess. An angry response is justified (I myself am more than a little irritated by what could have caused a loss) however, as I have been saying all the way through this, I don't think DS's particularly rash response is justified, nor do I think his arguments are actually sound, since they still fail to prove that Miz IS scum, it merely proves he COULD be scum.
2) The second is the fact that Miz "unvoted" even though he suspected DS. This is more a major problem with his plan itself than a contradiction in his explanation. It isn't evidence for scumminess.
3) The "major reason" versus "entire point" contradiction which I raised. I suppose in one sense the two "purposes" are compatible, since the trap would certainly have generated discussion. I don't like the fact that Miz tried to justify it by saying the discussion he caused is good, though again it is not really "scummy", since it could well just be another reflection of the dodginess of his plan.
All in all, whilst the contradictions are suspicious and I can see sense in suspecting Miz for them (as I said back in [660]), they are not very strong evidence at all.
Quote:
Here are the tells, for clarity:
#1. Going after obvious targets to escape suspicion
(While the "to escape suspicion" is speculation, I think it's obvious that's what DS is doing)
#2. exaggerating points extensively and intensely for use in #1
Re-read the thread. I was suspicious of Miztef long before there was any sort of threat to me. You admit Miztef is an "obvious target", therefore suspicion of an "obvious target" is suspicious?
You accuse me of "exaggerating your opinions". I see no evidence I have done so. If you want to keep your scumtells to yourself, just say so. The fact is I am only looking to defend myself, something every player wants to do.
DS wrote everything not in the quote by Para (read up and you will understand). Miz is an obvious target, but his scumminess is not obvious. It is suspicious that you would be so adamantly against Miz when he has not done anything which actually IS scummy. I played the devil's advocate with myself a bit, and it ended up in a WIFOM and some minor contradictions. I was not convinced there was a case against Miz despite trying to find the evidence for it, since clearly you and others did feel there was one.
This bit really grabs me:
You then say you are not "escaping suspicion" but are merely "defending yourself". Either way, I really don't like this since you are basically admitting that you have advanced the anti-Miz line to protect yoursself.
There is no solid case for Miz being scum based on the evidence. The arguments you have made have been rash and something of an over-reaction. If this attack on Miz is "defending yourself", then that strikes me as very suspicious indeed. The only reason you are not on L-1 any more is because of the events which have happened regarding Miz, most of which has been fuelled by you conflating a case. This looks to me like a scum taking advantage of the fact that one of the people who suspected them the most made a blatant error.
How many times should I explain that it is NOT the trap that is my main source of suspicion?
Then what is? The contradictions are NOT evidence of anything in that they are minor and pretty explicable. This looks like back-pedalling to me after people have said that the trap is not suspicious.
Also, DS, I don't like how you continually say that people are calling you scum without stating the evidence, to somehow discredit your opposition. I know exactly what people refer to each time they say it; it just looks like you are begging the question.
This argument between Para and DS has given evidence enough to allay my indecisiveness. As I said earlier, DS has admitted the case against Miz is weak and WIFOM-y at best. And yet, he persists in arguing emphatically that Miz is scum and even admits that he has done this to his own advantage.
DS, if there is anything here which I am unclear about point it out because I don't want to fall prey to your claims that the case against you lacks evidence.
Vote: DeathSauce
